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Poll

Which player was the biggest bust?

Hank
9 (4.8%)
Haanif
15 (8.1%)
Joe C
40 (21.5%)
Traci
9 (4.8%)
Joey
19 (10.2%)
Harry
89 (47.8%)
Write In
5 (2.7%)

Total Members Voted: 186

Author Topic: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era  (Read 22905 times)

Johnny B

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #50 on: June 09, 2019, 11:35:38 PM »
Bust is of course relative to expectations, otherwise it would be a "Worst Player of the Wojo Era" poll.

While I don't think it is Hank, I'd say it's reasonable to argue he was a bust RTE. He was billed as a potential lottery pick. I'm sure there are some examples otherwise, but my guess is the VAST majority of teams with a lottery pick end up in the NCAA. He wasn't and we didn't. Sure he was the best player on the team that year, but he and the season could have been much better.
he was a lottery pic. NVM close though

dgies9156

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #51 on: June 09, 2019, 11:54:08 PM »
I voted for Haanif. Perhaps it is because his upside potential was so great. But he left after two years. He and Henry would have been an awesome pair had they stayed another year or two.

It is hard for me to consider Ike a bust. Given his injury and a compassionate nature, I'd prefer to think of him as the jury is still out.

Harry wasn't a bust because there was never much there.

I was tempted to vote for Henry because he could not harness the raw talent he had to make us better and stronger. He also needed at least one and probably two more years in college to refine his game and learn to play within a system. 

Juan Anderson's Mixtape

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2019, 06:00:39 AM »
Bust is of course relative to expectations, otherwise it would be a "Worst Player of the Wojo Era" poll.

While I don't think it is Hank, I'd say it's reasonable to argue he was a bust RTE. He was billed as a potential lottery pick. I'm sure there are some examples otherwise, but my guess is the VAST majority of teams with a lottery pick end up in the NCAA. He wasn't and we didn't. Sure he was the best player on the team that year, but he and the season could have been much better.

Ben Simmons and Markelle Fultz both went #1 in the draft.  Both failed to make the NCAA tournament.   It's a team game.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2019, 07:34:55 AM »
Carter was not “obviously” worse than Heldt. 


Of course he was.  Carter couldn't even hang at the A10 level and is now at Hartford in the American East.  I honestly don't get people's love for Traci.  He wasn't very good.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 07:38:26 AM by Fluffy Blue Monster »
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2019, 07:37:59 AM »
guess it depends on someone's definition of "bust". But honestly he was pretty bad. Can you name a different scholarship player over the last 5 years or so that was clearly worse? If youre being honest, I don't think you can


Traci Carter
Ike Eke
Harry Froling
Sandy Cohen

I will also say that Heldt performed better than Cain or Bailey have to date, but I fully expect those two to be well beyond him after this year.
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Herman Cain

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #55 on: June 10, 2019, 07:47:52 AM »

Of course he was.  Carter couldn't even hang at the A10 level and is now at Hartford in the American East.
I don't think Carter was a bus, he did make a bad decision though. He was making solid progress at MU. If he would have stayed the course he would have been a consistent contributor. Also not fair to say he couldn't hang at the A 10 level, he just played on a lousy team. From his Bio from last season:

 Played in all 31 games for the Explorers, making 30 starts... Led team with 101 assists (3.3 apg) and 57 steals (1.8 spg)... Averaged 6.4 points per contest... Shot 83.9 percent from the free-throw line... Had seven games in which he scored 10 or more points... Broke out for career-high 24 points in home win over Davidson, going 9-of-11 from the floor and a perfect 4-for-4 from three-point range... Had 18 points in rivalry win over St. Joe's... Scored 17 points and added eight assists at The Palestra against No. 23 Villanova... Eight assists were a season high... Pilfered five steals against Bucknell and had four in games against Temple and Fordham.

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Golden Avalanche

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #56 on: June 10, 2019, 09:07:33 AM »
5 years, zero NCAA wins. 

Hmmmm

Wojo?

5 years, one NCAA win.

Hmmmm

Cooley?

brewcity77

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #57 on: June 10, 2019, 09:16:08 AM »
he was a lottery pic. NVM close though

He was not a lottery pick. Henry was picked 18th. That is not the lottery.
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Silent Verbal

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #58 on: June 10, 2019, 09:23:09 AM »
5 years, one NCAA win.

Hmmmm

Cooley?

In his first five years, Cooley made the NCAA Tournament three times, more than Wojo has, and, as you just stated, he had more NCAA wins in that span than Wojo.

I’m not one of those people on here who loves Cooley, but he did objectively better in his first five years than Wojo’s done, and Cooley coaches at a worse program.

Herman Cain

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #59 on: June 10, 2019, 10:29:51 AM »
In his first five years, Cooley made the NCAA Tournament three times, more than Wojo has, and, as you just stated, he had more NCAA wins in that span than Wojo.

I’m not one of those people on here who loves Cooley, but he did objectively better in his first five years than Wojo’s done, and Cooley coaches at a worse program.
I agree with this analysis.
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rocky_warrior

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #60 on: June 10, 2019, 11:22:22 AM »
In his first five years, Cooley made the NCAA Tournament three times, more than Wojo has, and, as you just stated, he had more NCAA wins in that span than Wojo.

Wrong.  Cooley had zero NCAA tournaments his first SEVEN years.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/coaches/ed-cooley-1.html

Silent Verbal

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #61 on: June 10, 2019, 11:51:25 AM »
Wrong.  Cooley had zero NCAA tournaments his first SEVEN years.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/coaches/ed-cooley-1.html

The post I quoted and responded to said Cooley had one NCAA tournament win in five years.  I assumed that poster was referring to his time at Providence.  When I reread my post, I thought about editing it to state “in his first five years at Providence” but figured no one would actually make the weak argument about his coaching at Fairfield for five years before he got to his current position.  Thanks for proving me wrong!

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #62 on: June 10, 2019, 12:02:43 PM »
The post I quoted and responded to said Cooley had one NCAA tournament win in five years.  I assumed that poster was referring to his time at Providence.  When I reread my post, I thought about editing it to state “in his first five years at Providence” but figured no one would actually make the weak argument about his coaching at Fairfield for five years before he got to his current position.  Thanks for proving me wrong!

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rocky_warrior

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #63 on: June 10, 2019, 12:33:50 PM »
I thought about editing it to state “in his first five years at Providence”
You should have.

but figured no one would actually make the weak argument about his coaching at Fairfield for five years before he got to his current position.

I like to keep coaching comparison's sane.  If we compare first 5 years of "other" coaches, lets look at their first 5 years as a D1 head coach.  Mmkay?

dgies9156

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #64 on: June 10, 2019, 01:06:20 PM »
5 years, one NCAA win.

Hmmmm

Cooley?

My gosh. Is Providence what we're shooting for?

YIKES!!!!!

brewcity77

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #65 on: June 10, 2019, 08:16:07 PM »
The post I quoted and responded to said Cooley had one NCAA tournament win in five years.  I assumed that poster was referring to his time at Providence.  When I reread my post, I thought about editing it to state “in his first five years at Providence” but figured no one would actually make the weak argument about his coaching at Fairfield for five years before he got to his current position.  Thanks for proving me wrong!

It absolutely matters. Looking at other coaches, the most successful are those that got their starts elsewhere. There are exceptions like Izzo, but K, Self, Roy, Calipari, Wright, the vast majority of the most successful coaches didn't find that success at their first stop.

Cooley's beginning shouldn't be dismissed any more than Beard, Beilein, or Bennett's should be.
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Herman Cain

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #66 on: June 10, 2019, 08:22:07 PM »
It absolutely matters. Looking at other coaches, the most successful are those that got their starts elsewhere. There are exceptions like Izzo, but K, Self, Roy, Calipari, Wright, the vast majority of the most successful coaches didn't find that success at their first stop.

Cooley's beginning shouldn't be dismissed any more than Beard, Beilein, or Bennett's should be.
If we could swap coaches with Providence, I would do it in a heartbeat.
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mileskishnish72

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #67 on: June 10, 2019, 09:33:56 PM »
Went with Chartouney, just because he was so annoying.

Silent Verbal

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #68 on: June 10, 2019, 09:44:26 PM »
It absolutely matters. Looking at other coaches, the most successful are those that got their starts elsewhere. There are exceptions like Izzo, but K, Self, Roy, Calipari, Wright, the vast majority of the most successful coaches didn't find that success at their first stop.

Cooley's beginning shouldn't be dismissed any more than Beard, Beilein, or Bennett's should be.

Again, I was just responding to a poster who used “5 years” when talking about Cooley.  If you want to say that it’s important for a head coach to cut his teeth at a smaller school before taking a bigger job, I won’t disagree with that.  Even Buzz had that year at UNO before coming to MU.  However, O’Neill and Crean did better than Wojo their first five years and they had no prior head coaching experience. 

I once attended a seminar where a hiring manager at a big company spoke and said that their philosophy when hiring people was, “No projects.”  They only hired people who were ready to hit the ground running, regardless of experience.  MU is at a level in college basketball, at least in terms of budget and resources, where this should be their philosophy.  O’Neill and Crean fit that “no project” mold.  They were ready for the big time.  Wojo, so far, has shown that he’s not. 

MU82

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #69 on: June 10, 2019, 09:56:16 PM »
Again, I was just responding to a poster who used “5 years” when talking about Cooley.  If you want to say that it’s important for a head coach to cut his teeth at a smaller school before taking a bigger job, I won’t disagree with that.  Even Buzz had that year at UNO before coming to MU.  However, O’Neill and Crean did better than Wojo their first five years and they had no prior head coaching experience. 

I once attended a seminar where a hiring manager at a big company spoke and said that their philosophy when hiring people was, “No projects.”  They only hired people who were ready to hit the ground running, regardless of experience.  MU is at a level in college basketball, at least in terms of budget and resources, where this should be their philosophy.  O’Neill and Crean fit that “no project” mold.  They were ready for the big time.  Wojo, so far, has shown that he’s not.

At the time of hire, what about Crean screamed he was more "ready for the big time" than Wojo?

Results, at least as measured by the FF run, show that Crean did prove to be more ready, but it's easy to use 20/20 hindsight.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just asking how could one know?
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forgetful

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #70 on: June 10, 2019, 10:02:48 PM »
At the time of hire, what about Crean screamed he was more "ready for the big time" than Wojo?

Results, at least as measured by the FF run, show that Crean did prove to be more ready, but it's easy to use 20/20 hindsight.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just asking how could one know?

Pretty simple actually. You travel forward in time by about 5-6 years. Read the internet. Travel back in time and make the right decision. Repeat across multiple timelines if necessary.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #71 on: June 10, 2019, 10:06:03 PM »
It absolutely matters. Looking at other coaches, the most successful are those that got their starts elsewhere. There are exceptions like Izzo, but K, Self, Roy, Calipari, Wright, the vast majority of the most successful coaches didn't find that success at their first stop.

Cooley's beginning shouldn't be dismissed any more than Beard, Beilein, or Bennett's should be.

K coached at Army, Wright at Fairfield. "Success" there is relative, coaching at either place  (for a coach with ambitions) is an audition. By UMASS standards, Cal had mega success. Ol' Roy had big success at KU.


Lennys Tap

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #72 on: June 10, 2019, 10:51:08 PM »
Pretty simple actually. You travel forward in time by about 5-6 years. Read the internet. Travel back in time and make the right decision. Repeat across multiple timelines if necessary.

Great way to beat the bookies and the stock market.

Silent Verbal

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #73 on: June 10, 2019, 10:57:59 PM »
At the time of hire, what about Crean screamed he was more "ready for the big time" than Wojo?

Results, at least as measured by the FF run, show that Crean did prove to be more ready, but it's easy to use 20/20 hindsight.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just asking how could one know?

That’s a great question, and I’m not sure I have an answer.  I think it was Goose who said that the O’Neill and Crean hires happened largely because of outside influences who were in Bill Cords’ ear.  I don’t have any info beyond that, but whoever those influences were, they obviously knew what to look for, and the results show it. 

A question that’s often asked on here is, “Well, if you didn’t want Wojo, who would you have hired instead?”  But really, that’s not our job to know.  It’s the person doing the hiring’s job to find the right candidate, not just out of the big names but the thousands of coaches out there who might be diamonds in the rough.  Chris Beard was coaching in Division II at the time of Wojo’s hiring.  It would’ve taken someone really savvy with their ear to the ground to find him, but if we’d offered him the job, I’m guessing he would’ve taken it.  That’s a very extreme scenario, but with some great good luck, it’s not out of the question. 

Now, in the fictional scenario where we hired Beard, the next argument would be, “But MU fans would revolt if we hired someone with Beard’s resume.”  Well, we’d done it before with Crean, O’Neill, and Buzz, and their success shut people up.

Cheeks

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Re: Biggest Bust of Wojo Era
« Reply #74 on: June 10, 2019, 11:19:36 PM »
5 years, zero NCAA wins. 

Hmmmm

Wojo?

I thought it was Coach K, but I was wrong...he had 1 NCAA win in 5 years at Duke after zero wins in five years at his first D1 job....one NCAA win in 10 years.


Lenny, pivoting to you.  When these young coaches have a chance to stub their toe at Army, Lehigh, Fairfield, Hofstra, Oral Roberts, Tulsa, etc, etc, it gives them the opportunity to screwup and not under the glaring lights.  How to organize, run a team, deal with media, deal with recruiting, administration, etc.  HUGE benefit to doing that not at a high major. HUGE.


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