Theoritcal MU Question

[silverback]

Thank you for all of the responses.

I can't comment, agree or disagree with any of them because that could influence or taint the conversation. Still, it's all appreciated.

Take care.

[brewcity77]

I can't comment, agree or disagree with any of them because that could influence or taint the conversation.

Well, you started it on Scoop, so the taint was inevitable.

One other thing to factor in is fan bias. When you love something, especially when it comes to sports, it seems hard to acknowledge the faults. How many Penn State fans refused to acknowledge what was going on, even when it was obvious? You saw the same from fans of Michigan State & Ohio State.

Amidst the cheating allegations, I've repeatedly seen Arizona fans defending Sean Miller. They are the only ones thinking there's a chance he's clean.

Even here, we did it with the rape allegations. We worked to convince ourselves that the victim was the problem.

If something bigger happened, it's hard not to turn a blind eye when you have a vested fan interest, or at the least for judgments to be adversely affected. The last people to accept that a major scandal was going on at Marquette are people like those of us on this board.

[Loose Cannon]

Well, you started it on Scoop, so the taint was inevitable.

One other thing to factor in is fan bias. When you love something, especially when it comes to sports, it seems hard to acknowledge the faults. How many Penn State fans refused to acknowledge what was going on, even when it was obvious? You saw the same from fans of Michigan State & Ohio State.

Amidst the cheating allegations, I've repeatedly seen Arizona fans defending Sean Miller. They are the only ones thinking there's a chance he's clean.

Even here, we did it with the rape allegations. We worked to convince ourselves that the victim was the problem.

If something bigger happened, it's hard not to turn a blind eye when you have a vested fan interest, or at the least for judgments to be adversely affected. The last people to accept that a major scandal was going on at Marquette are people like those of us on this board.

Thank you for stating it so well.  I think it falls under the Commitment Bias category.

[Heisenberg]

What should the punishment have been?

He destroyed a young woman's life through his personal recklessness and drunk driving.  The charges should have stuck (not dropped), thrown off the team (if MU has morals and not a more pressing concern about rebound production) and maybe spent some time in jail.

Instead, most in the MU community in 1985, though it was a joke like MU 82.

Castration.

Then put his man parts back on and castrate him again.

Then boil him in oil.

Then use the oil to fry something at Arby's.

I mean, duh!

[Heisenberg]

Wow that really is messed up. I had no idea that happened and thought the two 2010-11 assaults were the worst thing in program history.

Was there any eventual fallout from this?

Linda Tully's father died in 2016.  This was part of his Obituary

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2016/6/24/18472259/thomas-a-tully-noted-sherlockian-dead-at-80


His religious faith saw him through a harrowing ordeal with one of his six children.

In 1985, his daughter Linda Jean suffered a brain injury when she lost her grip and fell while "skitching" from a Jeep in Milwaukee, where she was a 21-year-old volleyball player for Marquette University.

For 24 years, she remained in a vegetative state. He, his wife and the rest of the Tullys visited her frequently. Linda Jean Tully died in 2009.

Wisconsin authorities considered charging the driver, Marquette basketball player Tom Copa, but decided not to. Mr. Tully's brother said that was after the grieving father told officials, "Look, this was an accident, this was a bunch of kids out having a good time."

Reached Wednesday, Copa, who went on to play with the San Antonio Spurs, called Mr. Tully "a very generous person, generous in spirit, very kind and, quite frankly, an inspiration and an example to me."

---------------

He was too kind to Copa

[brewcity77]

Thank you for stating it so well.  I think it falls under the Commitment Bias category.

I will say, I believe it was Galway Eagle (maybe also chitown) who were strongly in the corner of the victim in the campus rape allegations under Buzz. Though while that certainly is admirable, I believe it was born out of a different commitment bias to a friend he/they knew. It just goes to show how our own frame of reference shapes our perceptions of events.

I don't think the people at Penn State/MSU/Ohio State/Arizona are any better or worse than the people here. I don't think this is an inherent flaw or a sign of a moral corruption so thorough that it permeates beyond the programs and to the fanbases as a whole. It's just how we as people tend to rationalize and justify what we see when it comes to things we are biased in favor of.

[Loose Cannon]

I will say, I believe it was Galway Eagle (maybe also chitown) who were strongly in the corner of the victim in the campus rape allegations under Buzz. Though while that certainly is admirable, I believe it was born out of a different commitment bias to a friend he/they knew. It just goes to show how our own frame of reference shapes our perceptions of events.

I don't think the people at Penn State/MSU/Ohio State/Arizona are any better or worse than the people here. I don't think this is an inherent flaw or a sign of a moral corruption so thorough that it permeates beyond the programs and to the fanbases as a whole. It's just how we as people tend to rationalize and justify what we see when it comes to things we are biased in favor of.

Absolutely Agree, it's a Human flaw that is out there for all of us.  Maybe through self reflection we may become more aware of our own Commitment Bias and try tomake adjustments.

[ATWizJr]

I cannot believe I am saying this, but I agree with 4Never.

The only thing that would get me to come back is if they got rid of literally everyone even remotely involved or aware of the scandal and the coverup.  The president, the BOD, the provost, the athletic director, all of the coaches, everyone.  They would also have to permanently break ties with every booster and donor involved.

And regarding the other question, I don't attend church anymore.  I consider myself a Catholic, but I can't support the current leadership structure.  They would have to do the same thing I described above, which wouldn't leave enough people available to run the organization.  Hmmm, maybe they should let women become priests to help....

. Married priests would help.

[warriorchick]

. Married priests would help.

No doubt.

[warriorchick]

Linda Tully's father died in 2016.  This was part of his Obituary

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2016/6/24/18472259/thomas-a-tully-noted-sherlockian-dead-at-80


His religious faith saw him through a harrowing ordeal with one of his six children.

In 1985, his daughter Linda Jean suffered a brain injury when she lost her grip and fell while "skitching" from a Jeep in Milwaukee, where she was a 21-year-old volleyball player for Marquette University.

For 24 years, she remained in a vegetative state. He, his wife and the rest of the Tullys visited her frequently. Linda Jean Tully died in 2009.

Wisconsin authorities considered charging the driver, Marquette basketball player Tom Copa, but decided not to. Mr. Tully's brother said that was after the grieving father told officials, "Look, this was an accident, this was a bunch of kids out having a good time."

Reached Wednesday, Copa, who went on to play with the San Antonio Spurs, called Mr. Tully "a very generous person, generous in spirit, very kind and, quite frankly, an inspiration and an example to me."

---------------

He was too kind to Copa

So there was no coverup, no evidence of Marquette trying to intercede in the legal process, and even the girl's own father thought the handling of the incident was appropriate.  What exactly was Marquette's wrongdoing here?

[Scoop Snoop]

Well, you started it on Scoop, so the taint was inevitable.

One other thing to factor in is fan bias. When you love something, especially when it comes to sports, it seems hard to acknowledge the faults. How many Penn State fans refused to acknowledge what was going on, even when it was obvious? You saw the same from fans of Michigan State & Ohio State.

Amidst the cheating allegations, I've repeatedly seen Arizona fans defending Sean Miller. They are the only ones thinking there's a chance he's clean.

Even here, we did it with the rape allegations. We worked to convince ourselves that the victim was the problem.

If something bigger happened, it's hard not to turn a blind eye when you have a vested fan interest, or at the least for judgments to be adversely affected. The last people to accept that a major scandal was going on at Marquette are people like those of us on this board.

I think one way to self test for bias is to honestly ask yourself "if this happened at another university (one that you are entirely neutral about), what would I say/think?"

Let's look at the flip side of quickly taking a position on an alleged crime. I was recently on a jury and the defendent was charged with raping a 15 year old girl. I caught myself all too willing to vote guilty and then forced myself to question if I would be as quick to vote guilty if the victim was 50 instead of 15. After some soul searching I decided I would vote the same way, but the question really needed to be asked. I did vote guilty but again, I think it's important to check our unconscious biases.

[Cheeks]

. Married priests would help.

Getting rid of poverty vow would help then, too, I suppose

[MU82]

Instead, most in the MU community in 1985, though it was a joke like MU 82.

Please.

Even here, we did it with the rape allegations. We worked to convince ourselves that the victim was the problem.

Please don't include every Scooper in the "we," brew.

[tower912]

Nobody thought it was a joke.  It was a tragic accident.   That poor girl was injured something I had done many times prior and have done many times since.  There was no malice.  A bunch of kids having fun in the snow and tragedy.   Nobody hid anything.  Procedures and standards if the time were followed.  Her father chose forgiveness.  Tom Copa went through the appropriate processes.   No conspiracy, no cover-up, nobody taking it as a joke.

[Heisenberg]

Nobody thought it was a joke.  It was a tragic accident.   That poor girl was injured something I had done many times prior and have done many times since.  There was no malice.  A bunch of kids having fun in the snow and tragedy.   Nobody hid anything.  Procedures and standards if the time were followed.  Her father chose forgiveness.  Tom Copa went through the appropriate processes.   No conspiracy, no cover-up, nobody taking it as a joke.

Drunk driver recklessly driving in the snow with a girl (that was probably drunk too) hanging off the running board ... it's merely a tragedy and nothing else to see, we have the Wisconsin game next week to focus on.

Like I have been saying, we (the collective "we" here) will accept ANYTHING and rationalize everything away so they can continue to accept their team and root for them.

Silverback, please read this Copa part and recognize all the pontificating about morality on page 1 is total garbage.  No amount of malfeasance will get anyone to leave rooting for MU ... just like no one is leaving MSU or Penn State.  We are all the same.

Only a bad record will do that.

[Heisenberg]

So there was no coverup, no evidence of Marquette trying to intercede in the legal process, and even the girl's own father thought the handling of the incident was appropriate.  What exactly was Marquette's wrongdoing here?

The victim's family does not get to decide the punishment when the law is broken.  That is for the police to investigate and the district attorney to decide.

Do you honestly believe if Copa was not a MUBB player and NBA prospect he would have gotten the same treatment?

[tower912]

In 1985?  Probably.   Today, less likely.

[warriorchick]

Drunk driver recklessly driving in the snow with a girl (that was probably drunk too) hanging off the running board ... it's merely a tragedy and nothing else to see, we have the Wisconsin game next week to focus on.

Like I have been saying, we (the collective "we" here) will accept ANYTHING and rationalize everything away so they can continue to accept their team and root for them.

Silverback, please read this Copa part and recognize all the pontificating about morality on page 1 is total garbage.  No amount of malfeasance will get anyone to leave rooting for MU ... just like no one is leaving MSU or Penn State.  We are all the same.

Only a bad record will do that.

Don't speak for me.

And you are 100% wrong about the Copa incident.

[Heisenberg]

And you are 100% wrong about the Copa incident.

Please enlighten

[warriorchick]

Please enlighten

Read my earlier posts. Comparing it to the scandals at the other schools is a completely false equivalence.

[Marcus92]

It's not as though Penn State escaped with zero consequences from the Sandusky child sex abuse scandal.

Far from it.

School president Graham Spanier resigned. Athletic director Tim Curley and coach Joe Paterno had their contracts terminated. Spanier, Curley and school vice president Gary Schultz were charged with perjury, obstruction of justice and failure to report suspected child abuse. All three were sentenced to jail terms (ranging from 4 to 23 months) followed by 2 years of probation.

The NCAA hit Penn State with possibly the most severe sanctions ever imposed on a member institution, including a $60 million fine. The death penalty was seriously considered. The Big Ten Conference imposed an additional $13 million fine.

Settlements with the victims cost Penn State more than $90 million. The scandal even led Moody's Investors Service to downgrade the university's bond rating, which wouldn't be restored for almost four years.

As for financial supporters, officials said the school lost about a half dozen large donors (individuals or corporations who donated more than $1 million).

As of 2017, the school's total cost approached a quarter-billion dollars.

https://onwardstate.com/2018/11/09/penn-state-added-7-5-million-to-sandusky-scandal-costs-in-2017-18/
https://www.cnn.com/2013/10/28/us/penn-state-scandal-fast-facts/index.html
https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/ncaa/penn-state-abuse-scandal-costs-approach-quarter-billion

[Marqevans]

I left the church.

So when the President of our country took advantage of an intern, does that mean we should not support the USA.  My assertion would be it may be alright to support the ideals of an organization without necessarily supporting those who run it or enforce the rules.

[MU82]

So when the President of our country took advantage of an intern, does that mean we should not support the USA.  My assertion would be it may be alright to support the ideals of an organization without necessarily supporting those who run it or enforce the rules.

That seems logical.

[The Sultan]

So when the President of our country took advantage of an intern, does that mean we should not support the USA.  My assertion would be it may be alright to support the ideals of an organization without necessarily supporting those who run it or enforce the rules.

Sure. But people do leave the US too. Some people have breaking points.

[warriorchick]

My post in another thread reminded me....


Bill Cosby has received dozens of honorary degrees, and Marquette was the first school to rescind the one they gave him after his scandal came to light.  I know it's a symbolic gesture, but at least they did the right thing.