Theoritcal MU Question

[brewcity77]

1) If criminal abuse along the lines of what we now know occurred at Penn State, MSU and Ohio State ever happened within the MU athletic program at any level, what would you do? Would you remain a devoted fan? Would you cancel your season tickets?

I've made an investment in good faith over the years with the tickets and donations I've made. While something like this would be foundation shaking, I also fully believe those responsible would be dismissed. I would keep season tickets, but instead of my current expenditure, would drop down to the minimum to keep points going for men's, women's, & B&G Fund donations.

2) If you remain in the fold, why? Would you do anything or insist on any conditions in light of the offenses?

The students going forward will still have needs that would be aided by my future donations. Provided the University makes right, or at least makes every effort to do so, I expect I would be back in the fold once they did. I'm not sure my insistances mean much, but cleaning up the problem, instituting safeguards to prevent reoccurrence, and a thorough effort to make whole any victims would be my requests.

3) Would anything ever drive you away from your fandom or loyalty to MU?

I don't know. Growing up, the Chicago Bears & the NFL were my favorite team/league. I walked away from watching & supporting that sport when they reinstated Michael Vick & I've stayed away. I don't watch the NFL and haven't knowingly spent a dollar that supported them since.

Marquette is different because it's a more personal connection & the needs of the students there won't go away. Terrible stuff in one department, even systemically across the University, won't lessen the needs the students have. The same needs I once had when I was there.

If I'm convinced the institution has become rotten to the core, as I was with the NFL (and their recent missteps have only reinforced my decision), & I was convinced my money would be misused, I would probably walk away, and it would have to be complete cold turkey. But the sports title I most long for is a Marquette NC, and walking away from that dream would be difficult.

[Galway Eagle]

I reject the question part 2 ...

When Tom Copa's drunk driving killed an MU Volleyball player in 1985, does anyone recall the demands that the basketball program was rotten and needed wholesale gutting?  Who abandoned MU support because of this? (answer, no one)

I remember the incident well.  There was a dead girl and the concern was how it would affect Copa's rebound production in the next game.

Did you even know this happened before I mentioned it here?  Can you support the program now that you are aware this happened?

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-12-04-8503240049-story.html

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-12-19-8503280051-story.html

Wow that really is messed up. I had no idea that happened and thought the two 2010-11 assaults were the worst thing in program history.

Was there any eventual fallout from this?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I reject the question part 2 ...

When Tom Copa's drunk driving killed an MU Volleyball player in 1985, does anyone recall the demands that the basketball program was rotten and needed wholesale gutting?  Who abandoned MU support because of this? (answer, no one)

I remember the incident well.  There was a dead girl and the concern was how it would affect Copa's rebound production in the next game.

Did you even know this happened before I mentioned it here?  Can you support the program now that you are aware this happened?

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-12-04-8503240049-story.html

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-12-19-8503280051-story.html

That was a much different era with regards to drunk driving and how colleges handled student athletes.

[tower912]

Heisie, these were episodic, not systemic.  The question, as I understand it, is about widespread systemic issues, a la OSU, MSU, and PSU.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Heisie, these were episodic, not systemic.  The question, as I understand it, is about widespread systemic issues, a la OSU, MSU, and PSU.

That’s a really good point.

[warriorchick]

I reject the question part 2 ...

When Tom Copa's drunk driving killed an MU Volleyball player in 1985, does anyone recall the demands that the basketball program was rotten and needed wholesale gutting?  Who abandoned MU support because of this? (answer, no one)

I remember the incident well.  There was a dead girl and the concern was how it would affect Copa's rebound production in the next game.

Did you even know this happened before I mentioned it here?  Can you support the program now that you are aware this happened?

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-12-04-8503240049-story.html

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-12-19-8503280051-story.html

I remember.  I also remember that before this incident, Tom Copa had done some "Think Before You Drink" PSAs for local TV.

I don't recall that the girl died, and neither of the articles you posted said that either.  Are you sure that happened?

And not that it wasn't a tragedy, but I wouldn't put the Tom Copa incident in the same category that Silverback is referring to. What he did was not a malicious act. It was an idiot college kid making a poor decision.  He had been drinking and let other kids skitch on his truck in the snow.  Some of you have boasted on this board about drunken college antics that were just as (or more) stupid; by sheer luck, they just didn't have the same tragic consequences.   

Unlike the other stories brought up, there was no denial or cover-up by the either Tom or anyone in the administration.  As I recall, he was appropriately and immediately contrite.

[tower912]

She eventually died. (As will we all). I don't remember the exact date, but I remember she lived in a vegetative state for over 20 years.

[Cheeks]

She eventually died. (As will we all). I don't remember the exact date, but I remember she lived in a vegetative state for over 20 years.

She died at age 44.  As cynical as this sounds, if she had died immediately or within a short time of the incident, their may have been a different outcome for Copa and others.

[#UnleashSean]

On regards to #3

The only thing I could see myself not being an mu fan anymore is if wojo doesn't even make the nit and the board doesn't fire him. That to me would signal they no longer care about winning.

[#UnleashSean]

She died at age 44.  As cynical as this sounds, if she had died immediately or within a short time of the incident, their may have been a different outcome for Copa and others.

This is what I hate about American justice system. It's reactionary punishment instead of rehabilitation. He should not be charged with manslaughter because both he and the girl made stupid decisons

[brewcity77]

On regards to #3

The only thing I could see myself not being an mu fan anymore is if wojo doesn't even make the nit and the board doesn't fire him. That to me would signal they no longer care about winning.

I don't think this is relevant to the topic at hand. Eventually we would have a new coach. This is more asking about, hypothetically, a campus wide molestation ring, rape cover-ups at an administrative level, experimental steroids being given to all the athletes across programs without their knowledge, something that is negative at a systemic level. We're not talking about one bad season in one sport.

[Cheeks]

This is what I hate about American justice system. It's reactionary punishment instead of rehabilitation. He should not be charged with manslaughter because both he and the girl made stupid decisons

Burreffect

Not that simple.

[#UnleashSean]

I don't think this is relevant to the topic at hand. Eventually we would have a new coach. This is more asking about, hypothetically, a campus wide molestation ring, rape cover-ups at an administrative level, experimental steroids being given to all the athletes across programs without their knowledge, something that is negative at a systemic level. We're not talking about one bad season in one sport.

But im only not rooting for them if they show they no longer wish to win.

We can gut the system, fire everyone involved etc. Over a rape scandel. I will still root for those who come after as they had nothing to do with it.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Burreffect

Not that simple.

So, what would the “effect” be today if a player beat their girlfriend in a dorm elevator, pummeled a fellow student in a bar, held a floor member by their ankles out a ten story dorm window, shoplifted during a road game, or stole money from a ATM?

[Eye]

Best comparison I can come up with is this. Arizona has been my 2nd favorite college basketball team for more than 30 years. With everything that's gone down there in the last 18 months or so, the recently-completed season saw me show easily by far the least amount of attention I've paid to the program in that time. That very likely won't change until Miller is gone. Now I can't say that'd carry over to MU because I like MU more (and a lot more in the last 18 months). I'd probably still pay attention to MU, but probably wouldn't go to as many games, and almost certainly wouldn't take my annual out-of-the-Midwest road trip to watch MU in some place like NYC or KC. I'd probably pay a lot more attention to the Bucks, the NFL and the NHL instead. Paid much more attention to Bucks games instead of Arizona games this past season as an example.

[Cheeks]

So, what would the “effect” be today if a player beat their girlfriend in a dorm elevator, pummeled a fellow student in a bar, held a floor member by their ankles out a ten story dorm window, shoplifted during a road game, or stole money from a ATM?

Burreffect was UnleashCain’s original name.

The examples you gave all happened at MU and other schools.....in my opinion the effect at a minimum should be dismissal from school and team, criminal prosecution if appropriate. 

[Dr. Blackheart]

Burreffect was UnleashCain’s original name.

The examples you gave all happened at MU and other schools.....in my opinion the effect at a minimum should be dismissal from school and team, criminal prosecution if appropriate.

All were at Marquette. Three involved starters. All were prosecutable. None were. All were swept under the rug. Only one involved a dismissal. To the topic, where should our outrage lie?

[Cheeks]

All were at Marquette. Three involved starters. All were prosecutable. None were. All were swept under the rug. Only one involved a dismissal. To the topic, where should our outrage lie?

Yes, aware all were at MU, and similar have happened elsewhere (eg UCLA shoplifting).  There was some crazy crap that happened at IU that was swept under.  At many places.  In my opinion I use the common sense filter.  If my kid was the one dangled 10 stories, I’d want justice.  If my kid were doing the stealing from an ATM, I would expect they would be prosecuted.  Different justice system is already a problem in this country for race, class, age, etc....no different if you get special treatment because you can put a leather globe through an 18” hole.  It is why people do get outraged because they know if they were in that situation they are unnatural carnal knowledgeed.

[real chili 83]

How about a university that had an athlete who raped a woman.  Alum and other representatives harassed the woman relentlessly. The athlete was never held accountable. The woman committed suicide.

In their eyes, they are God's team.  To the rest of the world, they simply suck.

[Herman Cain]

Hello, all.

I'm a journalist and author out of MU, and I skulk around this board keeping tabs on everything hoops. Meanwhile, my work lives here...

http://www.johnscottlewinski.com

I'm working on a book regarding THIS topic...

https://medium.com/lug-magazine/the-cult-of-defense-56eb051b07f3

...And, I have a research question for Scoopers to consider. Please note this is ENTIRELY theoretical and not a hint at anything tangible. This is only "what if." No need to worry or speculate.

1) If criminal abuse along the lines of what we now know occurred at Penn State, MSU and Ohio State ever happened within the MU athletic program at any level, what would you do? Would you remain a devoted fan? Would you cancel your season tickets?

2) If you remain in the fold, why? Would you do anything or insist on any conditions in light of the offenses?

3) Would anything ever drive you away from your fandom or loyalty to MU?

Special thanks to anyone who goes to the trouble of replying. I have no preconceived notion of what these replies might be. If I placed this question in the incorrect place, apologies. If it must be moved, I understand. I just hope people see it.

Take care.

- John Scott Lewinski

First thing a good journalist does is correct his typos.

[LloydsLegs]

I reject the question part 2 ...

When Tom Copa's drunk driving killed an MU Volleyball player in 1985, does anyone recall the demands that the basketball program was rotten and needed wholesale gutting?  Who abandoned MU support because of this? (answer, no one)

I remember the incident well.  There was a dead girl and the concern was how it would affect Copa's rebound production in the next game.

Did you even know this happened before I mentioned it here?  Can you support the program now that you are aware this happened?

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-12-04-8503240049-story.html

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-12-19-8503280051-story.html

You don’t remember the incident well.  Linda wasn’t dead, and wouldn’t be for more than 20 years.  It was worse because she lived in a coma for all of that time. Linda was well loved by her many friends in the MU community. Skitching in the snow.  Drinking involved.  Not swept under the rug.  Copa was arrested and The incident was investigated. Not similar to the alleged sexual assaults.

[Not A Serious Person]

You don’t remember the incident well.  Linda wasn’t dead, and wouldn’t be for more than 20 years.  It was worse because she lived in a coma for all of that time. Linda was well loved by her many friends in the MU community. Skitching in the snow.  Drinking involved.  Not swept under the rug.  Copa was arrested and The incident was investigated. Not similar to the alleged sexual assaults.

Like I said in my first post, any fig leaf of "punishment" will be accepted and then the issue excused.

Thanks for proving my point.

It's how the world works ... both the abstract comments of absolute morality and the reality that most would accept any PR level of punishment as good enough and then "rally around the flag" and then watch MU basketball set attendance records.

[warriorchick]

Like I said in my first post, any fig leaf of "punishment" will be accepted and then the issue excused.

Thanks for proving my point.

What should the punishment have been?

[MU82]

What should the punishment have been?

Castration.

Then put his man parts back on and castrate him again.

Then boil him in oil.

Then use the oil to fry something at Arby's.

I mean, duh!

[dgies9156]

Many of these things went on at my high school.

We had two confirmed pedophile priests on the faculty when I was there, both of whom likely were abusing my classmates. One was physically beating male members of my theology class (he spent more than 20 years in the state prison before he recently died). The second avoided any prosecution because of a statute of limitations.

A third priest had what the Diocese called credible evidence of pedophilia. He went on to be principal of the high school. Our Diocese did all of the things that Dioceses do to cover this stuff up. They moved the priests around to different deaneries, got them help and brought them back to active ministry.

I'm still a practicing Catholic and I attend Mass weekly. Why? You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Yes, the church needs reform and it needs it fairly soon. But my wife and I support Marquette. We support my parish (both in Chicago and Florida) and we actually gave to the DSA for the Diocese of Palm Beach. We do this in recognition of the hard work many, many great people are doing in our faith to carry on the mission Jesus instructed us to do. No NGO in this world does more to alleviate suffering, educate, feed and clothe the poor, provide medical care and provide basic life services in many places throughout the world than does the Catholic Church and our faithful.

As to Marquette, some have pointed out the problems some of our athletes have had over the years. If we had a truly heinous pattern of behavior in which our athletes, administrators and university leaders were hiding actions and conspiring to prevent disclosure, yeah, I suppose I might have a problem with MU basketball and, indeed MU. But this won't happen at Marquette, in my view, because of the core values that are pervasive at the university.