Enrollment

[Billy Hoyle]

Athletes will still have to take the tests conform with NCAA clearing house regulations. So at least there will be some accountability.

However, the rest of the school can now comfortably be lowered to Chicago State standards which has been the intention of the administration for some time now.

Within  3 years SLU (106) and Marquette (89) will be trading at US News Parity.  MU already has fallen to Parity with Loyola.

Yeah, I know it absolutely killed Wake Forest, U of Chicago, GW, Holy Cross, Brandeis, Texas and NYU, among others, in the rankings.   

[forgetful]

There are real biases that exist in standardized tests and if Marquette believes doing this will not affect the quality of student they obtain, so be it. But my concern is there seems to be a level of grade inflation that also exists in today's era. Removing a variable that could help differentiate between the increasing levels of grade inflation makes the admissions process more demanding on the administrators.

Personally I think the fix here is demanding some level of accountability of the testing services to remove, or at the very least limit, the biases that exist rather than getting rid of the tests entirely.

You are actually hitting the nail on the head regarding why Universities are going to alternative metrics for determining admissions. Nearly 50% of graduates now have an A average (too many schools have higher than 4.0 gpa scales). On top of that, too many students are spending inordinate amounts of time and money to learn out to beat the standardized tests.

That means both the GPA and Standardized test are no longer adequate measures of an individuals innate ability. So Universities have and are moving to alternative metrics that are a much better measure of success probabilities.

The other aspect is student retention. It is a fact that students who graduate from the first school they matriculated at have stronger ties to the University and are more likely to be donors. So if you can identify students that are more passionate about the University before they even enroll, you decrease the probability of a transfer, and increase the amount of long-term donations that can be obtained.

SATs and GPAs don't inform on passion for an institution.

So they take a more wholistic approach that leads to the highest probability of success for students, and an increased return of investment in the form of long-term donations.

[Warrior2008]

You are actually hitting the nail on the head regarding why Universities are going to alternative metrics for determining admissions. Nearly 50% of graduates now have an A average (too many schools have higher than 4.0 gpa scales). On top of that, too many students are spending inordinate amounts of time and money to learn out to beat the standardized tests.

That means both the GPA and Standardized test are no longer adequate measures of an individuals innate ability. So Universities have and are moving to alternative metrics that are a much better measure of success probabilities.

The other aspect is student retention. It is a fact that students who graduate from the first school they matriculated at have stronger ties to the University and are more likely to be donors. So if you can identify students that are more passionate about the University before they even enroll, you decrease the probability of a transfer, and increase the amount of long-term donations that can be obtained.

SATs and GPAs don't inform on passion for an institution.

So they take a more wholistic approach that leads to the highest probability of success for students, and an increased return of investment in the form of long-term donations.

So if tests and grades are useless, what metrics can be used to judge a student's academic aptitude against other applicants? I mean that sincerely as I honestly don't know. Because while I agree it's important to measure the whole person, the whole person also includes academic performance.

As for the second part, attempting to measure an applicant's enthusiasm for a school as it relates to future donations seems to be wasted energy to me. These are teenage kids who often change interests, motivations, and who knows what else. If you want to raise an alumni base that's interested in donating, create a positive college experience for graduates who are set to succeed in their desired professions while making college affordable so graduates aren't drowning in student debt.


L

[forgetful]

So if tests and grades are useless, what metrics can be used to judge a student's academic aptitude against other applicants? I mean that sincerely as I honestly don't know. Because while I agree it's important to measure the whole person, the whole person also includes academic performance.

As for the second part, attempting to measure an applicant's enthusiasm for a school as it relates to future donations seems to be wasted energy to me. These are teenage kids who often change interests, motivations, and who knows what else. If you want to raise an alumni base that's interested in donating, create a positive college experience for graduates who are set to succeed in their desired professions while making college affordable so graduates aren't drowning in student debt.


L

Not saying grades aren't playing a role (and similarly test scores), they just are being downplayed compared to more wholistic measures, such as a computer programming major that has already developed an app. A biochemistry major who has already published a peer reviewed research article, or an engineering major who just got done with an internship at Lockheed Martin.

If you were going to hire an engineer, would you hire the person who has real world experience and a proven track record in that industry, but had a 4.1 GPA and a 33 on their ACT, or the person with no real experience that had a 4.3 GPA and a 35 on their ACT. Universities are saying the former is a better indicator.

Similarly, your points regarding what is more likely to make a student stay around and donate are correct. Internal studies have looked at what aspects contribute to students transferring, part of that is enthusiasm for the University, another is being a "good fit". Universities have metrics that can gauge how well a prospective student can contribute to the University environment, improving the quality of experience for other students (and in turn student outcomes broadly). None of these are capture in a GPA or score, and Universities have realized they are often more important.

[Cheeks]

Marquette isn't in a position of strength?

Not compared to those other schools....no.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Not compared to those other schools....no.

By other schools do you mean the top ~3%? Because compared to the bottom ~97% Marquette is doing pretty good.

[Herman Cain]

Much different when you come from a position of strength already.  This is right out of social engineering central.

Yeah, I know it absolutely killed Wake Forest, U of Chicago, GW, Holy Cross, Brandeis, Texas and NYU, among others, in the rankings.   

To Amplify the point made by Cheeks, those schools have respectable families that are pushing very hard to get their kids in those schools. They can set any standard they want and it won't hurt them because they have built up their reputation.

The big problem MU has is not the quality of the school, it is that it has done an absolutely terrible job of marketing the brand of the school. So now by lowering standards they are pouring gas on a fire of brand mediocrity. My long held position is that MU should up the standards and actually reject applicants. Make the place more selective.

[Sir Lawrence]

So, does anyone know what enrollment looks like for the MU
Class of 2023?

[4everwarriors]

Projections going forward, nationwide, forecast a diminished pool of college age applicants in the next 10 years. The highly selective universities will not be affected. The remaining others will and will be in a competitive race to fill their incoming classes. When you see colleges forego admission test scores and waive application fees, this is a direct response to the competitive environment of college admissions.

[Coleman]

Projections going forward, nationwide, forecast a diminished pool of college age applicants in the next 10 years. The highly selective universities will not be affected. The remaining others will and will be in a competitive race to fill their incoming classes. When you see colleges forego admission test scores and waive application fees, this is a direct response to the competitive environment of college admissions.

I think the hardest hit in the next 10-20 years will be the smaller private schools: The Ripon Colleges of the world: St Norbert College, Silver Lake College, Cardinal Stritch, Concordia, Wisconsin Lutheran, Marian College, Edgewood College, Viterbo, Lakeland College, etc. just to list a few of the ones in Wisconsin. The return on investment just isn't there. I wouldn't be surprised if half of these end up closing shop or merging.

I think (hope) Marquette and other schools like it are relatively safe.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

To Amplify the point made by Cheeks, those schools have respectable families that are pushing very hard to get their kids in those schools. They can set any standard they want and it won't hurt them because they have built up their reputation.

Marquette is one of those schools. Were in the top 3-5% in the country.

The big problem MU has is not the quality of the school, it is that it has done an absolutely terrible job of marketing the brand of the school. So now by lowering standards they are pouring gas on a fire of brand mediocrity. My long held position is that MU should up the standards and actually reject applicants. Make the place more selective.

When/how did Marquette lower their standards? I must of missed that.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Projections going forward, nationwide, forecast a diminished pool of college age applicants in the next 10 years. The highly selective universities will not be affected. The remaining others will and will be in a competitive race to fill their incoming classes. When you see colleges forego admission test scores and waive application fees, this is a direct response to the competitive environment of college admissions.

This is true but Marquette is in the population of schools that will not be affected.

I think the hardest hit in the next 10-20 years will be the smaller private schools: The Ripon Colleges of the world: St Norbert College, Cardinal Stritch, Concordia, Wisconsin Lutheran, Marian College, Edgewood College, Viterbo, Lakeland College, etc. just to list a few of the ones in Wisconsin. The return on investment just isn't there. I wouldn't be surprised if half of these end up closing shop or merging.

I think (hope) Marquette and other schools like it are relatively safe.

Yes. These are the types of schools that are in grave danger. I wouldn't be surprised to see hundreds of these types of universities close their doors over the next few decades. Marquette and others are in great position to absorb the students that would have gone to these types of universities.

[4everwarriors]

The one demographic where the applicant pool is actually increasing is the Hispanic population. MU has targeted that group and increased its marketing effort in areas that are largely Latino.

[Cheeks]

By other schools do you mean the top ~3%? Because compared to the bottom ~97% Marquette is doing pretty good.

I mean they have equity and status to make choices that will not impact them to the same degree.  MU has status vs many schools (not 97% in my opinion), but compared to some of the other schools mentioned here that have made these choices with "no impact", I don't agree with the comps.

[Cheeks]

Projections going forward, nationwide, forecast a diminished pool of college age applicants in the next 10 years. The highly selective universities will not be affected. The remaining others will and will be in a competitive race to fill their incoming classes. When you see colleges forego admission test scores and waive application fees, this is a direct response to the competitive environment of college admissions.

That's part of it.  There is also the diversity angle and the motives that go along with having the right balance there (whatever magical formulaic number academia wishes to come up with in their utopian Ivory towers).

[Cheeks]

To Amplify the point made by Cheeks, those schools have respectable families that are pushing very hard to get their kids in those schools. They can set any standard they want and it won't hurt them because they have built up their reputation.

The big problem MU has is not the quality of the school, it is that it has done an absolutely terrible job of marketing the brand of the school. So now by lowering standards they are pouring gas on a fire of brand mediocrity. My long held position is that MU should up the standards and actually reject applicants. Make the place more selective.

Agree somewhat, but should have started that a few years ago because that is a long term play.  Do that, dividends pay out a generation later.  USC made that choice after being a school for decades that anyone with $$$ could get into.  College admissions scandal aside, USC is now extremely difficult to get into and ranked as a top 30 school in the country.....endowment exploded, became a world class institution.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

I think the hardest hit in the next 10-20 years will be the smaller private schools: The Ripon Colleges of the world: St Norbert College, Silver Lake College, Cardinal Stritch, Concordia, Wisconsin Lutheran, Marian College, Edgewood College, Viterbo, Lakeland College, etc. just to list a few of the ones in Wisconsin. The return on investment just isn't there. I wouldn't be surprised if half of these end up closing shop or merging.

I think (hope) Marquette and other schools like it are relatively safe.

A lot of those schools have started or been offering adult learning as a way to stay viable.  Madison alone has Strich, Edgewood (based here), Lakeland, Condordia and a few others.

St. Norberts, on the other hand, has excellent leadership and is extra blessed by the Pontiff.

[Billy Hoyle]

To Amplify the point made by Cheeks, those schools have respectable families that are pushing very hard to get their kids in those schools. They can set any standard they want and it won't hurt them because they have built up their reputation.

The big problem MU has is not the quality of the school, it is that it has done an absolutely terrible job of marketing the brand of the school. So now by lowering standards they are pouring gas on a fire of brand mediocrity. My long held position is that MU should up the standards and actually reject applicants. Make the place more selective.

Thank you, 100% correct.

[Coleman]

A lot of those schools have started or been offering adult learning as a way to stay viable.  Madison alone has Strich, Edgewood (based here), Lakeland, Condordia and a few others.

St. Norberts, on the other hand, has excellent leadership and is extra blessed by the Pontiff.

Yeah I just looked up Lakeland's wikipedia page out of curiousity (had a friend who went there when I was at MU, when I visited I was blown away by how tiny it was), and expected to to see <1,000 students, and was surprised to find out they now have over 3,000 students with online programs and regional centers all over Wisconsin. Schools that adapt like this may have a chance at surviving.

Like I said, I don't think all of these will end up closing, but some definitely will: Silver Lake college has 500 students, Ripon has 800. Some will probably merge: Concordia and Wisconsin Lutheran, for example. Are two Lutheran colleges in Milwaukee really going to be viable in the future? Seems like a prime target for merging.

[mileskishnish72]

Next, eliminate even more testing - get rid of bluebooks, mid-terms, finals.
Then, since there won't be any basis for it, get rid of class rank (almost everyone gets honors, sort of like Harvard). Term papers should of course be eliminated as well, and no more theses.
Finally, get rid of the elitist term, diploma, which connotes a real accomplishment - give everyone a nice, big Participation Certificate!

[4everwarriors]

Crean must bee da Dean, hey?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Next, eliminate even more testing - get rid of bluebooks, mid-terms, finals.
Then, since there won't be any basis for it, get rid of class rank (almost everyone gets honors, sort of like Harvard). Term papers should of course be eliminated as well, and no more theses.
Finally, get rid of the elitist term, diploma, which connotes a real accomplishment - give everyone a nice, big Participation Certificate!

Im not sure if you aced your logic class because you provided an excellent example of the reductio ad absurdum logical fallacy.... or if you failed your logic class because you believe your own logical fallacy

[The Sultan]

Next, eliminate even more testing - get rid of bluebooks, mid-terms, finals.
Then, since there won't be any basis for it, get rid of class rank (almost everyone gets honors, sort of like Harvard). Term papers should of course be eliminated as well, and no more theses.
Finally, get rid of the elitist term, diploma, which connotes a real accomplishment - give everyone a nice, big Participation Certificate!

Many high schools have gotten rid of class rank. 

But the rest of your post is how TAMU labelled it.

[The Sultan]

Yeah I just looked up Lakeland's wikipedia page out of curiousity (had a friend who went there when I was at MU, when I visited I was blown away by how tiny it was), and expected to to see <1,000 students, and was surprised to find out they now have over 3,000 students with online programs and regional centers all over Wisconsin. Schools that adapt like this may have a chance at surviving.

Like I said, I don't think all of these will end up closing, but some definitely will: Silver Lake college has 500 students, Ripon has 800. Some will probably merge: Concordia and Wisconsin Lutheran, for example. Are two Lutheran colleges in Milwaukee really going to be viable in the future? Seems like a prime target for merging.

Concordia and Wisconsin Lutheran are two different Lutheran traditions, Missouri Synod and WELS, so that is likely not happening.  And Concordia has 7,000+ students.  It is actually a wonderful success story about a school that almost closed due to being in a terrible location, but they bought a beautiful property from Mount Mary College, and got real innovative in developing programs (especially in the allied health fields) that are extremely in demand.

I hear Wisconsin Lutheran has a ton of Schwann money behind it so who knows with them.  Oh and there is a third local Lutheran college, Carthage College in Kenosha, that is from the ELCA tradition. I don't know much about them though.

Wait a decade and see what happens.  There will be a big decline in college age students starting in 2026 or so (18 years after the 2008 financial crisis).  Birth rates tumbled after that and still haven't really recovered.  It's worse in the midwest and in the east - where most of the colleges and universities are.

[Cheeks]

Im not sure if you aced your logic class because you provided an excellent example of the reductio ad absurdum logical fallacy.... or if you failed your logic class because you believe your own logical fallacy

Maybe the case, but there are examples through history where people claimed absurd arguments were being made, fast forward a generation or two and they were not only not absurd, they came to be factually realized.