MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: Disco Hippie on May 21, 2019, 09:49:29 PM
-
So now that it's a few weeks past the May 1st deadline, has anyone heard anything about the number of deposits for the class of 2023? Hopefully they fared well and met their goals again this year. I think I recall reading that last year was a record freshman class so hopefully this year was comparable. It's always interesting to see where they netted out as well as the geographic trends but haven't seen anything yet so perhaps they're still sorting everything out?
-
Hausers transferred. That means nobody wants to go to a loser school like Marquette.
My sources say enrollment will be zero.
-
I concur with 82. Since the acceptance rate is now 200% coupled with the hausers leaving mu is now a dump.
-
So now that it's a few weeks past the May 1st deadline, has anyone heard anything about the number of deposits for the class of 2023? Hopefully they fared well and met their goals again this year. I think I recall reading that last year was a record freshman class so hopefully this year was comparable. It's always interesting to see where they netted out as well as the geographic trends but haven't seen anything yet so perhaps they're still sorting everything out?
I’m curious if MU will use this new “adversity” score the college board is offering to some schools.
-
I’m curious if MU will use this new “adversity” score the college board is offering to some schools.
Not if Disco Hippie has his way.
-
I’m curious if MU will use this new “adversity” score the college board is offering to some schools.
The "adversity" score name tag is a loaded name. It does disservice to what the score accomplishes. I encourage this read.
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/college-board-ceo-coleman-no-adversity-score-changes-sat-scores
-
I don't know about this, especially if you get extra credit for going to an. "at risk" high school.
Our school district has a high school whose enrollment is primarily Hispanic and African American. A high percentage of kids qualify for the free lunch {and breakfast) program. It is also the home of the district's gifted program, which our kids were a part of. If I am understanding the methodology of this, they would have gotten preferential treatment despite being white upper-middle class kids with a stable home environment.
-
The "adversity" score name tag is a loaded name. It does disservice to what the score accomplishes. I encourage this read.
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/college-board-ceo-coleman-no-adversity-score-changes-sat-scores
I listened to the interview live in my car. I get the intent, at the same time it is usually stuff like this that also has unintended consequences which they will have to fix again. Schools are absolutely going to use this to justify acceptance in the name of other agendas going on. Whether those agendas are good, bad or neither others will have to decide.
-
I don't know about this, especially if you get extra credit for going to an. "at risk" high school.
Our school district has a high school whose enrollment is primarily Hispanic and African American. A high percentage of kids qualify for the free lunch {and breakfast) program. It is also the home of the district's gifted program, which our kids were a part of. If I am understanding the methodology of this, they would have gotten preferential treatment despite being white upper-middle class kids with a stable home environment.
Correct and it was one of the questions brought up to Coleman as people start to game 5e system, which of course they will.
-
I don't know about this, especially if you get extra credit for going to an. "at risk" high school.
Our school district has a high school whose enrollment is primarily Hispanic and African American. A high percentage of kids qualify for the free lunch {and breakfast) program. It is also the home of the district's gifted program, which our kids were a part of. If I am understanding the methodology of this, they would have gotten preferential treatment despite being white upper-middle class kids with a stable home environment.
As I understand this system. In the case you are describing, they would not have gotten any beneficial treatment.
The system is in place to help remedy an inherent bias. I know of students whose parents drop $1-2K per month on tutors. Tutors that largely get the student straight A's (in many cases doing the work for them). They have personal coaches that teach them how to beat the ACT/SAT. There grades and scores are a poor reflection of their actual abilities.
These are the students that usually flunk entry level classes or squeak by with C's, while their parents continue to drop $1-2k a month on tutors, and then call up the deans saying the teachers suck, because their straight-A student struggled.
Universities are sick of many of these students, but the current test scores/grades are their best metric to evaluate everyone. They would rather have ones that grinder their way through life, but on test scores, maybe didn't fair so well. These scores give the Universities an opportunity to better evaluate students. It is not an "excuse to justify acceptance," as Chicos opines, it is a mechanism to get the best and hardest working students who will have the most success at the University level.
-
As I understand this system. In the case you are describing, they would not have gotten any beneficial treatment.
The system is in place to help remedy an inherent bias. I know of students whose parents drop $1-2K per month on tutors. Tutors that largely get the student straight A's (in many cases doing the work for them). They have personal coaches that teach them how to beat the ACT/SAT. There grades and scores are a poor reflection of their actual abilities.
These are the students that usually flunk entry level classes or squeak by with C's, while their parents continue to drop $1-2k a month on tutors, and then call up the deans saying the teachers suck, because their straight-A student struggled.
Universities are sick of many of these students, but the current test scores/grades are their best metric to evaluate everyone. They would rather have ones that grinder their way through life, but on test scores, maybe didn't fair so well. These scores give the Universities an opportunity to better evaluate students. It is not an "excuse to justify acceptance," as Chicos opines, it is a mechanism to get the best and hardest working students who will have the most success at the University level.
How does any of this refute my statement that my kids may have gotten an advantage by attending an" at risk" school. They had no tutors. They didn't even take any ACT or SAT prep classes.
-
How does any of this refute my statement that my kids may have gotten an advantage by attending an" at risk" school. They had no tutors. They didn't even take any ACT or SAT prep classes.
Sorry, I put two thoughts/statements into the same post. Much of it more directed at some of Chico's comments. My apologies.
The first sentence was in response to your statement. As I understand the scoring system, your kids would get a very small advantage. But, the advantage is consistent with the goals of the score. Part of that goal is that students who grow up in more diverse schools (economically, life situations, etc.), are more successful in college, because they are more socially and self aware. So the score benefit for your kids is consistent with the purpose, even thought they may not be disadvantaged themselves.
No scoring system is perfect. This is simply another metric in a very complicated admissions algorithm.
I think most would be shocked to see how complicated admissions planning is, and how sophisticated the process.
-
Please go on about my statement and why it was wrong.
-
It has good intentions, it’s implementation is not. The fact that the student does not get to see this added score is a problem right from the start, but pretty easy to see why that won’t be shared. I give this a few years before the lawsuits start flying. An article on why it has the potential to hurt everyone.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/05/the-new-sat-adversity-score-misses-the-point/
Inside Higher Ed has an interesting article as well on the problems of this approach.
https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/views/2019/05/20/numerous-questions-point-flaws-new-adversity-score-sat-opinion
-
It has good intentions, it’s implementation is not. The fact that the student does not get to see this added score is a problem right from the start, but pretty easy to see why that won’t be shared. I give this a few years before the lawsuits start flying. An article on why it has the potential to hurt everyone.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/05/the-new-sat-adversity-score-misses-the-point/
Inside Higher Ed has an interesting article as well on the problems of this approach.
https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/views/2019/05/20/numerous-questions-point-flaws-new-adversity-score-sat-opinion
The only thing interesting about the Higher Ed article is that it is an opinion piece written by a "private" tutor, who specializes in teaching rich affluent kids how to beat the exam. So the person critical of it, is the person who has made his living taking advantage of the system the score is trying to rectify.
That should tell you a lot.
-
The only thing interesting about the Higher Ed article is that it is an opinion piece written by a "private" tutor, who specializes in teaching rich affluent kids how to beat the exam. So the person critical of it, is the person who has made his living taking advantage of the system the score is trying to rectify.
That should tell you a lot.
Actually, you left some things out and put your own stuff in without knowing. Sure seems like he has done more than you portrayed. Furthermore, some great leaps on your part with nothing to back it up.
Ben Paris is a private tutor and learning designer with more than 25 years of experience in test preparation and educational assessment. He has designed test-preparation courses, trained hundreds of teachers and personally taught thousands of students how to succeed on standardized tests
Where does it say affluent? He only guides rich kids? Hmm....please show data to support this claim. How much does he charge for you to know that only rich affluent kids can beat the exam? What about the teachers he teaches...is he only teaching the RICH TEACHERS, whomever those may be? You've taken a great leap there. Yes, he has worked for Kaplan and others in his past, but they also have programs for the less fortunate to afford their services. Furthermore, you can read his responses to the article itself as he explains how this hurts everyone.
-
His tutoring services cost around $70 per hour. If you don’t think that his customer base is primarily affluent, I don’t know what to tell you.
That being said, he’s not wrong about this. But a better idea would be to get rid of standardized tests completely. Or at least deemphasize them. They’re trash.
-
I know it does not include my daughter and it does include my niece.
-
Wow, I didn't intend to start a big debate here. Was just curious if anyone has heard anything about the size of this fall's incoming class since last year was a record and it would be great if they can build on that momentum. Additionally, since Marquette does not have as large an endowment as some of its peers and is very tuition dependent, a class of 1925 instead of 2000 may seem like a small difference but has a large impact on the budget from what I understand so I was just curious.
-
His tutoring services cost around $70 per hour. If you don’t think that his customer base is primarily affluent, I don’t know what to tell you.
That being said, he’s not wrong about this. But a better idea would be to get rid of standardized tests completely. Or at least deemphasize them. They’re trash.
I’m sure it is mostly people with means, but that wasn’t what was said. What was said is rich kids, I’m just shocked the word white somehow escaped the charge, but maybe next time. Point is, he has also tutored disadvantaged kids of lower economic status, and a very small bit of research about him proves that out.
Sorry, tests are needed to discern the 3.7 from podunk high school vs the 3.3 from brutally hard high school, among other things. Doesn’t need to be the end all be all, but a barometer is good especially with grade inflation and other games that go on.
-
I’m sure it is mostly people with means, but that wasn’t what was said. What was said is rich kids, I’m just shocked the word white somehow escaped the charge, but maybe next time. Point is, he has also tutored disadvantaged kids of lower economic status, and a very small bit of research about him proves that out.
Sorry, tests are needed to discern the 3.7 from podunk high school vs the 3.3 from brutally hard high school, among other things. Doesn’t need to be the end all be all, but a barometer is good especially with grade inflation and other games that go on.
Not really. They aren’t a dependable predictor of college success. High school GPA, weighted by the school they attended and the course of study they took, is by far a more dependable predictor. Standardized tests have become “optional” for many schools because the schools don’t trust the results.
This includes schools like Chicago, Creighton and San Francisco BTW.
-
Wow, I didn't intend to start a big debate here. Was just curious if anyone has heard anything about the size of this fall's incoming class since last year was a record and it would be great if they can build on that momentum. Additionally, since Marquette does not have as large an endowment as some of its peers and is very tuition dependent, a class of 1925 instead of 2000 may seem like a small difference but has a large impact on the budget from what I understand so I was just curious.
My understanding is that it is on target.
-
Not really. They aren’t a dependable predictor of college success. High school GPA, weighted by the school they attended and the course of study they took, is by far a more dependable predictor. Standardized tests have become “optional” for many schools because the schools don’t trust the results.
This includes schools like Chicago, Creighton and San Francisco BTW.
Dependable...define that. Studies have shown that higher test scores do correlate to higher grades in college. Not overwhelming, but there nonetheless. In certain fields, the differences are much greater, especially in STEM fields.
-
Dependable...define that. Studies have shown that higher test scores do correlate to higher grades in college. Not overwhelming, but there nonetheless. In certain fields, the differences are much greater, especially in STEM fields.
The correlation with collegiate success is higher with the factors I indicated than with standardized tests. That’s why schools are making them optional.
-
Schools are making them optional for reasons of diversity. We have administrators here in the UC system that admitted that several years ago and it but them as a result. Now the new mantra is what you are stating.
-
Standardized tests don't work. The adversity score screws anyone not from a city. Need another system.
-
Schools are making them optional for reasons of diversity. We have administrators here in the UC system that admitted that several years ago and it but them as a result. Now the new mantra is what you are stating.
Right. Because schools like Chicago are seeing that disadvantaged students, who often don’t have the benefit of tutoring and classes geared toward ACT and SAT prep, are performing just as well despite lower test scores. They have seen no drop off in performance or graduation rates.
Again it actually shows that those tests are not a determination of college success.
-
Right. Because schools like Chicago are seeing that disadvantaged students, who often don’t have the benefit of tutoring and classes geared toward ACT and SAT prep, are performing just as well despite lower test scores. They have seen no drop off in performance or graduation rates.
Again it actually shows that those tests are not a determination of college success.
Those with better test scores, especially in STEM fields, perform better in school.
As for the money argument and performance, in the ACT as a family’s income increases on the scale, students receive better scores except for the two highest income brackets where they actually begin to go the other way...not linear improvement. The bigger question might be why those kids in those crappy school districts don’t have a choice to be educated elsewhere, but that will go down a rabbit hole here.
-
Standardized tests don't work. The adversity score screws anyone not from a city. Need another system.
Does MCAT work by and large? How about GMAT or GRE? How about LSAT?
We will agree to disagree.
-
Those with better test scores, especially in STEM fields, perform better in school.
As for the money argument and performance, in the ACT as a family’s income increases on the scale, students receive better scores except for the two highest income brackets where they actually begin to go the other way...not linear improvement. The bigger question might be why those kids in those crappy school districts don’t have a choice to be educated elsewhere, but that will go down a rabbit hole here.
I’m going to go with the increasing number of schools that are making it optional over your opinion on the matter.
I think Marquette should follow suit. Four years of work is much more important than one day of work anyway.
-
Standardized tests don't work. The adversity score screws anyone not from a city. Need another system.
Agreed in part.
No, the adversity score was designed in part to help rural disadvantaged students. Go to rural Mississippi/Alabama etc, and look at the teaching/school resources and tell me they are on a level playing field. The adversity score is meant to help kids from this type of background.
-
Does MCAT work by and large? How about GMAT or GRE? How about LSAT?
We will agree to disagree.
The GMAT, GRE, and LSAT are largely useless. The GRE most useless amongst them.
The MCAT is useful, but becoming less so as testing companies provide info to people like Kaplan, to help them design courses/materials to beat the exam, such as breakdown/emphasis of questions for that years exam. That leads to people shelling out thousands of dollars for tutoring/courses doing better, because they know the general material, not because they are smarter.
The MCAT changed emphasis a few years back, and Kaplan and students were pissed, because the courses didn't get the right emphasis and students taking the courses didn't do any better than people not taking it. Confirming that resources, not ability, were dictating significant differences in test scores.
Med schools use the MCAT, but have the largest "diversity" scoring system you can imagine. They balance classes for everything, Male/Female, White/Black/Hispanic, Married/Single, Rural/City/Foreign, Young/Old, and on and on. The schools have found that having a diverse pool of students, better prepares them as medical professionals that have to serve a diverse population. So if you want to say the MCAT is working, then you also have to admit that diversity scoring is very beneficial.
-
I’m going to go with the increasing number of schools that are making it optional over your opinion on the matter.
I think Marquette should follow suit. Four years of work is much more important than one day of work anyway.
And Lenny thinks you and I are the same people with 100% certainty. Lol
I agree 4 years is way more important than one day. Ironically my daughter is taking the SAT at this very moment and the ACT next Saturday. That said, how is 4 years of work at a crap high school compared to 4 years at a great high school? Look, I’ve said from the start they should not be the end all be all, but they do have some merit and kids that do well on them do correlate to better performance in college. The are not meaningless.....and let’s not pretend to erase what schools have said that made it optional and what they originally said was the reason. You don’t get to simply pretend their motives changed and sweep it under the rug.
-
And Lenny thinks you and I are the same people with 100% certainty. Lol
I agree 4 years is way more important than one day. Ironically my daughter is taking the SAT at this very moment and the ACT next Saturday. That said, how is 4 years of work at a crap high school compared to 4 years at a great high school? Look, I’ve said from the start they should not be the end all be all, but they do have some merit and kids that do well on them do correlate to better performance in college. The are not meaningless.....and let’s not pretend to erase what schools have said that made it optional and what they originally said was the reason. You don’t get to simply pretend their motives changed and sweep it under the rug.
I’m not disputing anything. Schools believe the tests are biased against people from disadvantaged backgrounds and therefore are harmful when it comes to diversity. (Which is why the testing boards are adding the adversity score in response.)
And schools know what are the good and bad high schools. They can judge that better than a test can.
-
And schools know what are the good and bad high schools. They can judge that better than a test can.
Having gone through the college admission process three times now, I've been amazed how true this statement is. My kids didn't go to the same high school as most of their grade/middle school peers. The overwhelming majority of them went to the nearest high school; my kids (and a small handful of others) went to a school farther away. Both are private, Catholic high schools. The difference between the college admissions from the two high schools is very stark...even for kids with "comparable" GPAs.
Same with standardized test scores, for what it's worth, but I'm staying out of that debate.
-
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-truth-about-the-sat-and-act-1520521861
Great article from last year from several researchers. Others I can post as well.
-
this is a great story-a milwaukee jesuit high school does the most with the least. all 85 graduating seniors will be the first ones of their respective families to be accepted to a 4 year college. some were accepted to more than one. their big upgrade is moving from their old locale, the old st florian grade school to a remodeled pic n sav on 18th and national. total cost~$25 million. the "other schools" would spend that on their locker rooms ?-(
a few hundred family and friends gathered a GESU for the graduation ceremony
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/local/milwaukee/2019/05/31/all-85-cristo-rey-grads-accepted-least-two-4-year-colleges/1289169001/
-
this is a great story-a milwaukee jesuit high school does the most with the least. all 85 graduating seniors will be the first ones of their respective families to be accepted to a 4 year college. some were accepted to more than one. their big upgrade is moving from their old locale, the old st florian grade school to a remodeled pic n sav on 18th and national. total cost~$25 million. the "other schools" would spend that on their locker rooms ?-(
a few hundred family and friends gathered a GESU for the graduation ceremony
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/local/milwaukee/2019/05/31/all-85-cristo-rey-grads-accepted-least-two-4-year-colleges/1289169001/
Cristo Rey is a great program. We've had interns from the Chicago school at my organization.
-
Cristo Rey is a great program. We've had interns from the Chicago school at my organization.
Cristo Rey has a lot of merit in that it gets kids off the streets and in the classroom . However, I would prefer to see their graduates do something substantial like Health Science or Engineering and not take the easy path and go the social justice route. Of course, I guess that is hard thing when the schools are sponsored by the Jesuits.
-
And Lenny thinks you and I are the same people with 100% certainty. Lol
Lie.
I do know with 100% certainty that either you're a big fat liar or you have major trouble with reading comprehension. Could be both are true.
Ask Fluff if he tired of me living inside your head and all the stalking/trolling by you that it causes.
-
Cristo Rey has a lot of merit in that it gets kids off the streets and in the classroom . However, I would prefer to see their graduates do something substantial like Health Science or Engineering and not take the easy path and go the social justice route. Of course, I guess that is hard thing when the schools are sponsored by the Jesuits.
Please tell me this was supposed to be in teal.
-
Please tell me this was supposed to be in teal.
+1000
-
Lie.
I do know with 100% certainty that either you're a big fat liar or you have major trouble with reading comprehension. Could be both are true.
Ask Fluff if he tired of me living inside your head and all the stalking/trolling by you that it causes.
Lie? No. You going to move the goalposts again, Lenny....like you did on your Least Qualified MU student to be admitted in the last 20 years nonsense?
Here's what you said. Maybe you have a trouble writing coherent sentences.
Let's follow along, shall we?
1) https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=58742.msg1133266#msg1133266
"Man, you are totally obsessed by this lunacy. Another alter ego?" You talking to Fluffy when he called you out about your comments to me. Yes, you did put a "?" at the end to CYA....ahh, but that will be exposed in a bit. Of course you were called out by a handful of posters and you disappeared.
2) https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=58746.msg1133695#msg1133695
Then I question you again on your accusation. You again make the insinuation. "Read PRN's post. He, I and most others here have you figured out. You're a dishonest debater, always have been. You'll find a supporter here and there - even the most outrageous do. How many of them are merely alter egos I don't know and don't care." You don't care, yet you sure seem to.
3) https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=58746.msg1133617#msg1133617
And the nail in the coffin. You said, "Was 99.9% sure I was right. Thanks for making it 100%" in your post to Fluffy that he and I are the same people.
Sorry, no lie by me Lenny. You just can't admit you got your tit caught in the ringer....again. For the same reason why so many called you out on the pressure bullshyte on Hauser, and why you had to move the goalposts on your Dwade comments about his admission.
Now I could come back and say some clever things like you have the last two weeks like....You're a liar or "off your meds again"? But I won't, I'll leave that to you. I think the above references prove you were in error in your accusations.
Have a wonderful Sunday.
-
Cristo Rey has a lot of merit in that it gets kids off the streets and in the classroom . However, I would prefer to see their graduates do something substantial like Health Science or Engineering and not take the easy path and go the social justice route. Of course, I guess that is hard thing when the schools are sponsored by the Jesuits.
Social justice is the easy route? Lol
-
The GMAT, GRE, and LSAT are largely useless. The GRE most useless amongst them.
As someone who has taken 2 of these tests (and done quite well), I agree.
-
Cristo Rey has a lot of merit in that it gets kids off the streets and in the classroom . However, I would prefer to see their graduates do something substantial like Health Science or Engineering and not take the easy path and go the social justice route. Of course, I guess that is hard thing when the schools are sponsored by the Jesuits.
I don't even know what this means.
-
Those with better test scores, especially in STEM fields, perform better in school.
This is false and this is exactly why the College of Engineering has stood up an underserved student STEM program to get them ready for college-level classes in CoE. CoE found that a lot of under served kids are able to pass the standardized tests but they are vastly under-prepared for the STEM courses when they get to MU because they simply haven't been exposed to it.
Testing is a useful minor metric for admission....the key being minor.
-
As someone who has taken 2 of these tests (and done quite well), I agree.
I took two of them as well, and my test scores helped get me in. As a freshman at MU I bombed and had to dig out like crazy to get a decent GPA overall. The test scores did wonders for me per my graduate school director.
-
This is false and this is exactly why the College of Engineering has stood up an underserved student STEM program to get them ready for college-level classes in CoE. CoE found that a lot of under served kids are able to pass the standardized tests but they are vastly under-prepared for the STEM courses when they get to MU because they simply haven't been exposed to it.
Testing is a useful minor metric for admission....the key being minor.
Not false. In the research of the two academics from the article I posted earlier this week....you have to go to the actual research...it is searchable.
-
3) https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=58746.msg1133617#msg1133617
And the nail in the coffin. You said, "Was 99.9% sure I was right. Thanks for making it 100%" in your post to Fluffy that he and I are the same people.
Sorry, no lie by me Lenny. You just can't admit you got your tit caught in the ringer....again.
OMG, Cheeks - you've outdone yourself. The "proof" that I said it was 100% that you and Fluffy are the same person - your "nail in the coffin", isn't anything of the sort. It's my response to Fluffy about Sam being pressured - it has NOTHING to do with you two being the same person. Please read what he wrote and my response again. It's obvious.
-
I took two of them as well, and my test scores helped get me in. As a freshman at MU I bombed and had to dig out like crazy to get a decent GPA overall. The test scores did wonders for me per my graduate school director.
That's great that they helped you get in. But they are not a great indicator of overall intelligence or aptitude, or predictor of academic or professional success.
I say this as someone who was in the 95th percentile in the GRE and 85th percentile in the LSAT.
I am a very, very good test taker. I did fine in grad school, but I don't think I was necessarily leaps and bounds smarter than a lot of my peers. In fact, the GRE was probably least meaningful in my application portfolio, considering everything we did in grad school was research based and we were graded on research papers, not tests. I didn't take one test in grad school, beyond oral comprehensives. Writing samples and research experience are (or at least, should be) way more valuable to admissions.
-
Not false. In the research of the two academics from the article I posted earlier this week....you have to go to the actual research...it is searchable.
I did go to their actual research. There are major problems with their methods. One of the problems is they are using data from 20+ years ago in some instances. That's just bad methodology.
I took two of them as well, and my test scores helped get me in. As a freshman at MU I bombed and had to dig out like crazy to get a decent GPA overall. The test scores did wonders for me per my graduate school director.
I took two as well. They meant nothing to my admissions. The people making the decisions flat out said so.
I am on committees making the actual admission decisions. Things like the GRE are of the most minimal importance. Essentially they are there to make sure the persons other data are not completely inaccurate, and because pencil pushers and the business type people (like Grad School Directors), who typically know absolutely nothing, love arbitrary metrics and require it.
We then almost completely ignore the GRE, and when it is consistent with the metrics we care about, we simply use them (makes the Directors happy), and when they are not consistent with what we care about, we BS an explanation.
Bottom line, your Grad School director, is not making the decisions on who is admitted, so he knows absolutely nothing about why you were actually admitted. Admission decisions are made at the program/department level.
-
I took two of them as well, and my test scores helped get me in. As a freshman at MU I bombed and had to dig out like crazy to get a decent GPA overall. The test scores did wonders for me per my graduate school director.
A follow up on this. It does depend a lot on what type of graduate program you are going into. Is it a Master's program?
Many of those are pure revenue streams, and that is it. They care about GRE metrics as it makes the program rank higher in things like US NEWS, and justifies charging students more. They want paying bodies in seats, they are fine with using an arbitrary metric to fill the seats. They aren't really concerned with what these people can offer the university besides tuition.
In programs where the University is paying the students to be there (e.g. PhD research positions), the GRE and other scores mean almost nothing to the committees. They look at all the intangibles.
-
Ahh yes, their methodology is not right. My research guy better than yours. Etc etc
This is the same arguments people get into about economics, climate, education, etc....tear down the research that doesn’t fit the argument. I get it, both sides do it and I am guilty as well.
I would also point you to several other studies of data that show same result, but suspect you will also find something with their approach that isn’t agreeable.
-
Ahh yes, their methodology is not right. My research guy better than yours. Etc etc
This is the same arguments people get into about economics, climate, education, etc....tear down the research that doesn’t fit the argument. I get it, both sides do it and I am guilty as well.
I would also point you to several other studies of data that show same result, but suspect you will also find something with their approach that isn’t agreeable.
Explain to me why schools the caliber of the University of Chicago are making it optional then.
-
Explain to me why schools the caliber of the University of Chicago are making it optional then.
The same reason UC System admins and others stated (and got in trouble), to expand diversity and lower the risk of legal exposure. If I say more this will be labeled as something else, so I’ll leave it there. You can find the situations that brought this about and the growing push to achieve a goal academia desires.
-
The same reason UC System admins and others stated (and got in trouble), to expand diversity and lower the risk of legal exposure. If I say more this will be labeled as something else, so I’ll leave it there. You can find the situations that brought this about and the growing push to achieve a goal academia desires.
But they didn't see any sort of drop off in their graduation rates for disadvantaged students when they made it optional. That means it doesn't do a good job of determining ability to conduct college work.
-
Ahh yes, their methodology is not right. My research guy better than yours. Etc etc
This is the same arguments people get into about economics, climate, education, etc....tear down the research that doesn’t fit the argument. I get it, both sides do it and I am guilty as well.
I would also point you to several other studies of data that show same result, but suspect you will also find something with their approach that isn’t agreeable.
There is a reason fields like education, economics, even medicine etc., are plagued by arguments of poor methodology. It is because the fields are inherently based on correlations. The studies are not science, they are not falsifiable. Many then are simply just bad because they rely on limited data, that may not represent or be applicable to what they are trying to claim.
If you look at the two researchers you referenced own work, they concede that the "test" metric on its own is a very poor predictor of outcome. But if you combine it was other commonly used metrics, it become very predictive. They rely on old data. They do not compare their "test based" metrics to any other systems that schools like U. Chicago, are using.
Their data are actually, in much of their work, refuting what you are claiming here.
The same reason UC System admins and others stated (and got in trouble), to expand diversity and lower the risk of legal exposure. If I say more this will be labeled as something else, so I’ll leave it there. You can find the situations that brought this about and the growing push to achieve a goal academia desires.
100% false. They changed their system, because evaluations of internal data, revealed that they had far more data, and metrics related to student outcomes and learning environments that were more predictive of long term success than "test-based" metrics.
They have developed rigorous internal metrics more sophisticated than a test-score and GPA. Many schools are now doing this, including running machine-learning algorithms on their own data to identify which will have the best success, and improve the long term campus community.
-
But they didn't see any sort of drop off in their graduation rates for disadvantaged students when they made it optional. That means it doesn't do a good job of determining ability to conduct college work.
How do graduation rates necessarily equate to quality of college work?
C’s get degrees. A lot of people do poor college work and graduate. You seem to be equating if one graduates = quality college work. That doesn’t make it necessarily so.
-
How do graduation rates necessarily equate to quality of college work?
C’s get degrees. A lot of people do poor college work and graduate. You seem to be equating if one graduates = quality college work. That doesn’t make it necessarily so.
I have no idea how those disadvantaged students are performing in college and neither do you.
-
Marquette to go test optional with 2020 class.
https://www.marquette.edu/news-center/2019/marquette-adopts-test-optional-policy.php
Marquette University today announced its decision to become test optional, offering domestic and international undergraduate applicants the choice to include standardized test scores as part of their application. The policy of no longer requiring ACT and/or SAT scores from all applicants is effective for students applying for entry in fall 2020.
“Our Catholic, Jesuit mission calls on us to keep a Marquette education accessible to a diverse population of students,” President Michael R. Lovell said. “We will further open our doors by making standardized test scores optional in our undergraduate admissions process.”
Marquette now joins a select group of top 100 national universities (based on U.S. News and World Report Best Colleges), as well as a growing number of Jesuit universities that have removed the ACT or SAT as an admission requirement.
“Four years of strong performance in rigorous high school coursework has always been the most important measure in Marquette's holistic admission review,” Acting Provost Kimo Ah Yun said. “Requiring standardized tests was never intended to dissuade individuals from applying who felt they had the capacity to succeed here. We acknowledge, however, that requiring the SAT or ACT may have led to this unintended consequence and aim to address that now.”
Brian Troyer, dean of undergraduate admissions, said he and his team look forward to implementing this policy and continuing their work of carefully evaluating all applicants for admission to Marquette.
“We believe that the Jesuit concept of cura personalis extends to the admissions review process. We have always engaged in a student-centered approach to our work, and the decision to adopt a test-optional policy reinforces those values,” Troyer said. “Students can decide how to best represent their capacity for success at the college level. We believe students are who they are because of their life experiences, work ethic, and their engagement in and out of the classroom.”
Troyer added that the university’s holistic admission review will continue to consider academic achievement in conjunction with a student's unique talents, leadership and service activities, application essay(s), school profile, letters of recommendation, and any other information a student wishes to submit for consideration.
“Considering a variety of application materials within the context of a student's application file will ensure we continue to admit future Marquette University students who will succeed academically and graduate ready to be changemakers in their communities — individuals who are eager to answer our call to Be the Difference,” he said.
Per the new policy, for students who choose to submit an ACT and/or SAT score, the score will be evaluated as a component in the admission review process. All applicants, regardless of test score submission, will have the opportunity to qualify for Marquette’s array of scholarship awards.
Marquette says it will continue to analyze the correlation between standardized testing and academic achievement in college and will evaluate this policy on an ongoing basis.
-
Not surprised in the least based on other decisions
-
Marquette to go test optional with 2020 class.
https://www.marquette.edu/news-center/2019/marquette-adopts-test-optional-policy.php
Marquette University today announced its decision to become test optional, offering domestic and international undergraduate applicants the choice to include standardized test scores as part of their application. The policy of no longer requiring ACT and/or SAT scores from all applicants is effective for students applying for entry in fall 2020.
“Our Catholic, Jesuit mission calls on us to keep a Marquette education accessible to a diverse population of students,” President Michael R. Lovell said. “We will further open our doors by making standardized test scores optional in our undergraduate admissions process.”
Marquette now joins a select group of top 100 national universities (based on U.S. News and World Report Best Colleges), as well as a growing number of Jesuit universities that have removed the ACT or SAT as an admission requirement.
“Four years of strong performance in rigorous high school coursework has always been the most important measure in Marquette's holistic admission review,” Acting Provost Kimo Ah Yun said. “Requiring standardized tests was never intended to dissuade individuals from applying who felt they had the capacity to succeed here. We acknowledge, however, that requiring the SAT or ACT may have led to this unintended consequence and aim to address that now.”
Brian Troyer, dean of undergraduate admissions, said he and his team look forward to implementing this policy and continuing their work of carefully evaluating all applicants for admission to Marquette.
“We believe that the Jesuit concept of cura personalis extends to the admissions review process. We have always engaged in a student-centered approach to our work, and the decision to adopt a test-optional policy reinforces those values,” Troyer said. “Students can decide how to best represent their capacity for success at the college level. We believe students are who they are because of their life experiences, work ethic, and their engagement in and out of the classroom.”
Troyer added that the university’s holistic admission review will continue to consider academic achievement in conjunction with a student's unique talents, leadership and service activities, application essay(s), school profile, letters of recommendation, and any other information a student wishes to submit for consideration.
“Considering a variety of application materials within the context of a student's application file will ensure we continue to admit future Marquette University students who will succeed academically and graduate ready to be changemakers in their communities — individuals who are eager to answer our call to Be the Difference,” he said.
Per the new policy, for students who choose to submit an ACT and/or SAT score, the score will be evaluated as a component in the admission review process. All applicants, regardless of test score submission, will have the opportunity to qualify for Marquette’s array of scholarship awards.
Marquette says it will continue to analyze the correlation between standardized testing and academic achievement in college and will evaluate this policy on an ongoing basis.
Athletes will still have to take the tests conform with NCAA clearing house regulations. So at least there will be some accountability.
However, the rest of the school can now comfortably be lowered to Chicago State standards which has been the intention of the administration for some time now.
Within 3 years SLU (106) and Marquette (89) will be trading at US News Parity. MU already has fallen to Parity with Loyola.
-
Schools with much higher profile that Marquette have done a similar thing. University of Chicago, Bowdoin, Bates, etc. I'm sure they are sinking to Chicago State levels as well huh?
-
Da bizness of edukasion is alive and well in MKE, hey?
-
Schools with much higher profile that Marquette have done a similar thing. University of Chicago, Bowdoin, Bates, etc. I'm sure they are sinking to Chicago State levels as well huh?
Very True, but chances are this is all smoke and mirrors and the overwhelming majority of applicants still submit test scores. Have any of these "higher academic profile" schools publically reported the percentage of their applicants that didn't submit them? UofC has been doing this for a couple years now I think so it would be very interesting to see what percentage it is. My money's on single digits if not a fraction. To me, if a school really wants to be bold and make a statement, they wouldn't just make test scores optional, they'd outright ban them and go by grades and recommendations alone.
Going back to my original query, has anyone heard anything about the size of the incoming class in the fall? That's all I was asking.
-
Schools with much higher profile that Marquette have done a similar thing. University of Chicago, Bowdoin, Bates, etc. I'm sure they are sinking to Chicago State levels as well huh?
Much different when you come from a position of strength already. This is right out of social engineering central.
-
Schools with much higher profile that Marquette have done a similar thing. University of Chicago, Bowdoin, Bates, etc. I'm sure they are sinking to Chicago State levels as well huh?
Not to mention, what people are observing is that many top students are bypassing spending inordinate amounts of time studying for a pointless standardized test and instead do useful things like:
Develop an app.
Intern at an engineering firm.
Get published working in a biomedical lab.
and many other real world demonstrations of their abilities, dedication and skill that is more predictive on continued success than a stupid test. Internal studies by major universities prior to switching to test optional found that standardized tests were really only predictive of success in the first semester of college.
-
Much different when you come from a position of strength already. This is right out of social engineering central.
Marquette isn’t in a position of strength?
-
Athletes will still have to take the tests conform with NCAA clearing house regulations. So at least there will be some accountability.
However, the rest of the school can now comfortably be lowered to Chicago State standards which has been the intention of the administration for some time now.
Within 3 years SLU (106) and Marquette (89) will be trading at US News Parity. MU already has fallen to Parity with Loyola.
Except Marquette hasn't actually really fallen. Its been bouncing between the 70s and 90s for almost 20 years. I distinctly remember when I applied in the early 2000s it was like 94. You can cherry pick any two years to show a rise or decline.
Loyola has made real improvement. SLU has always been close to MU, bouncing around 100.
-
Hausers transferred. That means nobody wants to go to a loser school like Marquette.
My sources say enrollment will be zero.
Not quite. Symir and Akanno will be the only freshman.
-
So MU is lowering standards for the general student body but raising them for their revenue producing student athletes? Sounds like lose/lose.
-
They aren't lowering standards for the general student body.
-
There are real biases that exist in standardized tests and if Marquette believes doing this will not affect the quality of student they obtain, so be it. But my concern is there seems to be a level of grade inflation that also exists in today’s era. Removing a variable that could help differentiate between the increasing levels of grade inflation makes the admissions process more demanding on the administrators.
Personally I think the fix here is demanding some level of accountability of the testing services to remove, or at the very least limit, the biases that exist rather than getting rid of the tests entirely.
-
There are real biases that exist in standardized tests and if Marquette believes doing this will not affect the quality of student they obtain, so be it. But my concern is there seems to be a level of grade inflation that also exists in today’s era. Removing a variable that could help differentiate between the increasing levels of grade inflation makes the admissions process more demanding on the administrators.
That's a legitimate concern. I can't argue with you there.
-
Athletes will still have to take the tests conform with NCAA clearing house regulations. So at least there will be some accountability.
However, the rest of the school can now comfortably be lowered to Chicago State standards which has been the intention of the administration for some time now.
Within 3 years SLU (106) and Marquette (89) will be trading at US News Parity. MU already has fallen to Parity with Loyola.
Yeah, I know it absolutely killed Wake Forest, U of Chicago, GW, Holy Cross, Brandeis, Texas and NYU, among others, in the rankings. ::)
-
There are real biases that exist in standardized tests and if Marquette believes doing this will not affect the quality of student they obtain, so be it. But my concern is there seems to be a level of grade inflation that also exists in today’s era. Removing a variable that could help differentiate between the increasing levels of grade inflation makes the admissions process more demanding on the administrators.
Personally I think the fix here is demanding some level of accountability of the testing services to remove, or at the very least limit, the biases that exist rather than getting rid of the tests entirely.
You are actually hitting the nail on the head regarding why Universities are going to alternative metrics for determining admissions. Nearly 50% of graduates now have an A average (too many schools have higher than 4.0 gpa scales). On top of that, too many students are spending inordinate amounts of time and money to learn out to beat the standardized tests.
That means both the GPA and Standardized test are no longer adequate measures of an individuals innate ability. So Universities have and are moving to alternative metrics that are a much better measure of success probabilities.
The other aspect is student retention. It is a fact that students who graduate from the first school they matriculated at have stronger ties to the University and are more likely to be donors. So if you can identify students that are more passionate about the University before they even enroll, you decrease the probability of a transfer, and increase the amount of long-term donations that can be obtained.
SATs and GPAs don't inform on passion for an institution.
So they take a more wholistic approach that leads to the highest probability of success for students, and an increased return of investment in the form of long-term donations.
-
You are actually hitting the nail on the head regarding why Universities are going to alternative metrics for determining admissions. Nearly 50% of graduates now have an A average (too many schools have higher than 4.0 gpa scales). On top of that, too many students are spending inordinate amounts of time and money to learn out to beat the standardized tests.
That means both the GPA and Standardized test are no longer adequate measures of an individuals innate ability. So Universities have and are moving to alternative metrics that are a much better measure of success probabilities.
The other aspect is student retention. It is a fact that students who graduate from the first school they matriculated at have stronger ties to the University and are more likely to be donors. So if you can identify students that are more passionate about the University before they even enroll, you decrease the probability of a transfer, and increase the amount of long-term donations that can be obtained.
SATs and GPAs don't inform on passion for an institution.
So they take a more wholistic approach that leads to the highest probability of success for students, and an increased return of investment in the form of long-term donations.
So if tests and grades are useless, what metrics can be used to judge a student’s academic aptitude against other applicants? I mean that sincerely as I honestly don’t know. Because while I agree it’s important to measure the whole person, the whole person also includes academic performance.
As for the second part, attempting to measure an applicant’s enthusiasm for a school as it relates to future donations seems to be wasted energy to me. These are teenage kids who often change interests, motivations, and who knows what else. If you want to raise an alumni base that’s interested in donating, create a positive college experience for graduates who are set to succeed in their desired professions while making college affordable so graduates aren’t drowning in student debt.
L
-
So if tests and grades are useless, what metrics can be used to judge a student’s academic aptitude against other applicants? I mean that sincerely as I honestly don’t know. Because while I agree it’s important to measure the whole person, the whole person also includes academic performance.
As for the second part, attempting to measure an applicant’s enthusiasm for a school as it relates to future donations seems to be wasted energy to me. These are teenage kids who often change interests, motivations, and who knows what else. If you want to raise an alumni base that’s interested in donating, create a positive college experience for graduates who are set to succeed in their desired professions while making college affordable so graduates aren’t drowning in student debt.
L
Not saying grades aren't playing a role (and similarly test scores), they just are being downplayed compared to more wholistic measures, such as a computer programming major that has already developed an app. A biochemistry major who has already published a peer reviewed research article, or an engineering major who just got done with an internship at Lockheed Martin.
If you were going to hire an engineer, would you hire the person who has real world experience and a proven track record in that industry, but had a 4.1 GPA and a 33 on their ACT, or the person with no real experience that had a 4.3 GPA and a 35 on their ACT. Universities are saying the former is a better indicator.
Similarly, your points regarding what is more likely to make a student stay around and donate are correct. Internal studies have looked at what aspects contribute to students transferring, part of that is enthusiasm for the University, another is being a "good fit". Universities have metrics that can gauge how well a prospective student can contribute to the University environment, improving the quality of experience for other students (and in turn student outcomes broadly). None of these are capture in a GPA or score, and Universities have realized they are often more important.
-
Marquette isn’t in a position of strength?
Not compared to those other schools....no.
-
Not compared to those other schools....no.
By other schools do you mean the top ~3%? Because compared to the bottom ~97% Marquette is doing pretty good.
-
Much different when you come from a position of strength already. This is right out of social engineering central.
Yeah, I know it absolutely killed Wake Forest, U of Chicago, GW, Holy Cross, Brandeis, Texas and NYU, among others, in the rankings. ::)
To Amplify the point made by Cheeks, those schools have respectable families that are pushing very hard to get their kids in those schools. They can set any standard they want and it won't hurt them because they have built up their reputation.
The big problem MU has is not the quality of the school, it is that it has done an absolutely terrible job of marketing the brand of the school. So now by lowering standards they are pouring gas on a fire of brand mediocrity. My long held position is that MU should up the standards and actually reject applicants. Make the place more selective.
-
So, does anyone know what enrollment looks like for the MU
Class of 2023?
-
Projections going forward, nationwide, forecast a diminished pool of college age applicants in the next 10 years. The highly selective universities will not be affected. The remaining others will and will be in a competitive race to fill their incoming classes. When you see colleges forego admission test scores and waive application fees, this is a direct response to the competitive environment of college admissions.
-
Projections going forward, nationwide, forecast a diminished pool of college age applicants in the next 10 years. The highly selective universities will not be affected. The remaining others will and will be in a competitive race to fill their incoming classes. When you see colleges forego admission test scores and waive application fees, this is a direct response to the competitive environment of college admissions.
I think the hardest hit in the next 10-20 years will be the smaller private schools: The Ripon Colleges of the world: St Norbert College, Silver Lake College, Cardinal Stritch, Concordia, Wisconsin Lutheran, Marian College, Edgewood College, Viterbo, Lakeland College, etc. just to list a few of the ones in Wisconsin. The return on investment just isn't there. I wouldn't be surprised if half of these end up closing shop or merging.
I think (hope) Marquette and other schools like it are relatively safe.
-
To Amplify the point made by Cheeks, those schools have respectable families that are pushing very hard to get their kids in those schools. They can set any standard they want and it won't hurt them because they have built up their reputation.
Marquette is one of those schools. Were in the top 3-5% in the country.
The big problem MU has is not the quality of the school, it is that it has done an absolutely terrible job of marketing the brand of the school. So now by lowering standards they are pouring gas on a fire of brand mediocrity. My long held position is that MU should up the standards and actually reject applicants. Make the place more selective.
When/how did Marquette lower their standards? I must of missed that.
-
Projections going forward, nationwide, forecast a diminished pool of college age applicants in the next 10 years. The highly selective universities will not be affected. The remaining others will and will be in a competitive race to fill their incoming classes. When you see colleges forego admission test scores and waive application fees, this is a direct response to the competitive environment of college admissions.
This is true but Marquette is in the population of schools that will not be affected.
I think the hardest hit in the next 10-20 years will be the smaller private schools: The Ripon Colleges of the world: St Norbert College, Cardinal Stritch, Concordia, Wisconsin Lutheran, Marian College, Edgewood College, Viterbo, Lakeland College, etc. just to list a few of the ones in Wisconsin. The return on investment just isn't there. I wouldn't be surprised if half of these end up closing shop or merging.
I think (hope) Marquette and other schools like it are relatively safe.
Yes. These are the types of schools that are in grave danger. I wouldn't be surprised to see hundreds of these types of universities close their doors over the next few decades. Marquette and others are in great position to absorb the students that would have gone to these types of universities.
-
The one demographic where the applicant pool is actually increasing is the Hispanic population. MU has targeted that group and increased its marketing effort in areas that are largely Latino.
-
By other schools do you mean the top ~3%? Because compared to the bottom ~97% Marquette is doing pretty good.
I mean they have equity and status to make choices that will not impact them to the same degree. MU has status vs many schools (not 97% in my opinion), but compared to some of the other schools mentioned here that have made these choices with “no impact”, I don’t agree with the comps.
-
Projections going forward, nationwide, forecast a diminished pool of college age applicants in the next 10 years. The highly selective universities will not be affected. The remaining others will and will be in a competitive race to fill their incoming classes. When you see colleges forego admission test scores and waive application fees, this is a direct response to the competitive environment of college admissions.
That’s part of it. There is also the diversity angle and the motives that go along with having the right balance there (whatever magical formulaic number academia wishes to come up with in their utopian Ivory towers).
-
To Amplify the point made by Cheeks, those schools have respectable families that are pushing very hard to get their kids in those schools. They can set any standard they want and it won't hurt them because they have built up their reputation.
The big problem MU has is not the quality of the school, it is that it has done an absolutely terrible job of marketing the brand of the school. So now by lowering standards they are pouring gas on a fire of brand mediocrity. My long held position is that MU should up the standards and actually reject applicants. Make the place more selective.
Agree somewhat, but should have started that a few years ago because that is a long term play. Do that, dividends pay out a generation later. USC made that choice after being a school for decades that anyone with $$$ could get into. College admissions scandal aside, USC is now extremely difficult to get into and ranked as a top 30 school in the country.....endowment exploded, became a world class institution.
-
I think the hardest hit in the next 10-20 years will be the smaller private schools: The Ripon Colleges of the world: St Norbert College, Silver Lake College, Cardinal Stritch, Concordia, Wisconsin Lutheran, Marian College, Edgewood College, Viterbo, Lakeland College, etc. just to list a few of the ones in Wisconsin. The return on investment just isn't there. I wouldn't be surprised if half of these end up closing shop or merging.
I think (hope) Marquette and other schools like it are relatively safe.
A lot of those schools have started or been offering adult learning as a way to stay viable. Madison alone has Strich, Edgewood (based here), Lakeland, Condordia and a few others.
St. Norberts, on the other hand, has excellent leadership and is extra blessed by the Pontiff.
-
To Amplify the point made by Cheeks, those schools have respectable families that are pushing very hard to get their kids in those schools. They can set any standard they want and it won't hurt them because they have built up their reputation.
The big problem MU has is not the quality of the school, it is that it has done an absolutely terrible job of marketing the brand of the school. So now by lowering standards they are pouring gas on a fire of brand mediocrity. My long held position is that MU should up the standards and actually reject applicants. Make the place more selective.
Thank you, 100% correct.
-
A lot of those schools have started or been offering adult learning as a way to stay viable. Madison alone has Strich, Edgewood (based here), Lakeland, Condordia and a few others.
St. Norberts, on the other hand, has excellent leadership and is extra blessed by the Pontiff.
Yeah I just looked up Lakeland's wikipedia page out of curiousity (had a friend who went there when I was at MU, when I visited I was blown away by how tiny it was), and expected to to see <1,000 students, and was surprised to find out they now have over 3,000 students with online programs and regional centers all over Wisconsin. Schools that adapt like this may have a chance at surviving.
Like I said, I don't think all of these will end up closing, but some definitely will: Silver Lake college has 500 students, Ripon has 800. Some will probably merge: Concordia and Wisconsin Lutheran, for example. Are two Lutheran colleges in Milwaukee really going to be viable in the future? Seems like a prime target for merging.
-
Next, eliminate even more testing - get rid of bluebooks, mid-terms, finals.
Then, since there won't be any basis for it, get rid of class rank (almost everyone gets honors, sort of like Harvard). Term papers should of course be eliminated as well, and no more theses.
Finally, get rid of the elitist term, diploma, which connotes a real accomplishment - give everyone a nice, big Participation Certificate!
-
Crean must bee da Dean, hey?
-
Next, eliminate even more testing - get rid of bluebooks, mid-terms, finals.
Then, since there won't be any basis for it, get rid of class rank (almost everyone gets honors, sort of like Harvard). Term papers should of course be eliminated as well, and no more theses.
Finally, get rid of the elitist term, diploma, which connotes a real accomplishment - give everyone a nice, big Participation Certificate!
Im not sure if you aced your logic class because you provided an excellent example of the reductio ad absurdum logical fallacy.... or if you failed your logic class because you believe your own logical fallacy
-
Next, eliminate even more testing - get rid of bluebooks, mid-terms, finals.
Then, since there won't be any basis for it, get rid of class rank (almost everyone gets honors, sort of like Harvard). Term papers should of course be eliminated as well, and no more theses.
Finally, get rid of the elitist term, diploma, which connotes a real accomplishment - give everyone a nice, big Participation Certificate!
Many high schools have gotten rid of class rank.
But the rest of your post is how TAMU labelled it.
-
Yeah I just looked up Lakeland's wikipedia page out of curiousity (had a friend who went there when I was at MU, when I visited I was blown away by how tiny it was), and expected to to see <1,000 students, and was surprised to find out they now have over 3,000 students with online programs and regional centers all over Wisconsin. Schools that adapt like this may have a chance at surviving.
Like I said, I don't think all of these will end up closing, but some definitely will: Silver Lake college has 500 students, Ripon has 800. Some will probably merge: Concordia and Wisconsin Lutheran, for example. Are two Lutheran colleges in Milwaukee really going to be viable in the future? Seems like a prime target for merging.
Concordia and Wisconsin Lutheran are two different Lutheran traditions, Missouri Synod and WELS, so that is likely not happening. And Concordia has 7,000+ students. It is actually a wonderful success story about a school that almost closed due to being in a terrible location, but they bought a beautiful property from Mount Mary College, and got real innovative in developing programs (especially in the allied health fields) that are extremely in demand.
I hear Wisconsin Lutheran has a ton of Schwann money behind it so who knows with them. Oh and there is a third local Lutheran college, Carthage College in Kenosha, that is from the ELCA tradition. I don't know much about them though.
Wait a decade and see what happens. There will be a big decline in college age students starting in 2026 or so (18 years after the 2008 financial crisis). Birth rates tumbled after that and still haven't really recovered. It's worse in the midwest and in the east - where most of the colleges and universities are.
-
Im not sure if you aced your logic class because you provided an excellent example of the reductio ad absurdum logical fallacy.... or if you failed your logic class because you believe your own logical fallacy
Maybe the case, but there are examples through history where people claimed absurd arguments were being made, fast forward a generation or two and they were not only not absurd, they came to be factually realized.
-
Maybe the case, but there are examples through history where people claimed absurd arguments were being made, fast forward a generation or two and they were not only not absurd, they came to be factually realized.
...so therefore every absurd argument shall be taken seriously.
-
...so therefore every absurd argument shall be taken seriously.
Nah, that would be absurd....or would it?
-
So, does anyone know what enrollment looks like for the MU
Class of 2023?
Found it. 2,057 have enrolled.
8,597 total undergrad enrollment.
-
Found it. 2,057 have enrolled.
8,597 total undergrad enrollment.
Did you find that on the website?
-
Did you find that on the website?
SPARK sent it to my godson.
-
Found it. 2,057 have enrolled.
8,597 total undergrad enrollment.
Thanks Sir Lawrence!
Seems like a pretty solid number. Not as robust as the record 2,162 that enrolled last year, but my understanding is that they're generally happy with anything over 2000.
-
Many high schools have gotten rid of class rank.
But the rest of your post is how TAMU labelled it.
My kids high school does not use class rank.
-
My kids high school does not use class rank.
the elite prep schools out east got rid of class rank years ago. Colleges have been going away from using class rank in their admissions decisions. My brother went to a very strong high school and didn't get into his top choice because of class rank - 3.5, 29 ACT. Meanwhile, some of his friends at weaker high schools did get into that same college thanks to having much higher class ranks. Class rank penalized kids at highly competitive high schools.
I don't know if this is still the case, but I know Madison used to reject any WI HS student outside of the top 20% or something like that. That would penalize a high achieving student at MUHS ranked in the top 30% whereas a kid at Baraboo with lesser credentials but a high class rank would benefit.
-
the elite prep schools out east got rid of class rank years ago. Colleges have been going away from using class rank in their admissions decisions. My brother went to a very strong high school and didn't get into his top choice because of class rank - 3.5, 29 ACT. Meanwhile, some of his friends at weaker high schools did get into that same college thanks to having much higher class ranks. Class rank penalized kids at highly competitive high schools.
I don't know if this is still the case, but I know Madison used to reject any WI HS student outside of the top 20% or something like that. That would penalize a high achieving student at MUHS ranked in the top 30% whereas a kid at Baraboo with lesser credentials but a high class rank would benefit.
UW-Madison stopped doing that years ago. It was more of an automatic acceptance of anyone in the top 20% with those outside of that being put into a review however.
-
Marquette to go test optional with 2020 class.
https://www.marquette.edu/news-center/2019/marquette-adopts-test-optional-policy.php
“Our Catholic, Jesuit mission calls on us to keep a Marquette education accessible to a diverse population of students,” President Michael R. Lovell said. “
Excuse me President Lovell. Are you on Pluto or something?
How does setting an all-in rack rate of $50,000+ per year for a Marquette education make it "accessible to a diverse population of students?"
I'm waiting and hope to hear from you about that one. Until then, don't come to me about standardized testing.
-
I’m sure Marquette has a strong scholarship program for disadvantaged students. They’re not paying list price.
-
Excuse me President Lovell. Are you on Pluto or something?
How does setting an all-in rack rate of $50,000+ per year for a Marquette education make it "accessible to a diverse population of students?"
I'm waiting and hope to hear from you about that one. Until then, don't come to me about standardized testing.
Marquette's student population is more diverse than ever in its history dgies. And I trust you appreciate that MU's tuition is comparable to other similar institutions. It also has a near 'modern time' record for 'first in family' students. Many believe that helps to fulfill the mission.
As has been alluded to, the rich and the disadvantaged are able to make it work financially. It's the middle class that struggles to meet the financial burden these days. It's a very different school from the days we were there. In some ways better; in some ways not so much.
-
Marquette's student population is more diverse than ever in its history dgies. And I trust you appreciate that MU's tuition is comparable to other similar institutions. It also has a near 'modern time' record for 'first in family' students. Many believe that helps to fulfill the mission.
As has been alluded to, the rich and the disadvantaged are able to make it work financially. It's the middle class that struggles to meet the financial burden these days. It's a very different school from the days we were there. In some ways better; in some ways not so much.
Brother Glow, Marquette did a lot for me and I'm very grateful. I've repaid my benefit year in and year out, but the notion that Marquette is accessible doesn't fly when the university is pricing itself way out of the market for most middle class families. Many of those middle class families built and supported Marquette over the years.
I would note that from a sociological and demographic standpoint, I'm sure you are probably right. And, I agree that pricing is "comparable."
But as I told a Marquette representative several years ago when I raised this issue with him, "I am not Comparable University. I am Marquette."
I'm delighted about the first in family trend and the mission of the university in its purist form is the same as it was. But for a middle class student whose family believes in what Marquette is..... the University of Wisconsin, Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota, Tennessee etc., is slowly becoming a viable option given the comparable cost of Marquette -- even discounted -- against the cost of a good quality in-state institution.
Ultimately, Marquette is a "reach" for the finances of most middle class folks in the United States. If that's what the elders of the university want, then it's their university and go for it. We who have supported it year in and year out and who may be subsidizing what I think is the absurd tuition increases will then have to ask, "now what?"
-
Enrollment numbers don't look good for the fall. It will look good quantity wise, but they had to offer more than they were expecting to get them to show. Safe to say they missed the mark this year.