Enrollment

[Coleman]

I took two of them as well, and my test scores helped get me in.  As a freshman at MU I bombed and had to dig out like crazy to get a decent GPA overall.  The test scores did wonders for me per my graduate school director.

That's great that they helped you get in. But they are not a great indicator of overall intelligence or aptitude, or predictor of academic or professional success.

I say this as someone who was in the 95th percentile in the GRE and 85th percentile in the LSAT.

I am a very, very good test taker. I did fine in grad school, but I don't think I was necessarily leaps and bounds smarter than a lot of my peers. In fact, the GRE was probably least meaningful in my application portfolio, considering everything we did in grad school was research based and we were graded on research papers, not tests. I didn't take one test in grad school, beyond oral comprehensives. Writing samples and research experience are (or at least, should be) way more valuable to admissions.

[forgetful]

Not false.  In the research of the two academics from the article I posted earlier this week....you have to go to the actual research...it is searchable.

I did go to their actual research. There are major problems with their methods. One of the problems is they are using data from 20+ years ago in some instances. That's just bad methodology.

I took two of them as well, and my test scores helped get me in.  As a freshman at MU I bombed and had to dig out like crazy to get a decent GPA overall.  The test scores did wonders for me per my graduate school director.

I took two as well. They meant nothing to my admissions. The people making the decisions flat out said so.

I am on committees making the actual admission decisions. Things like the GRE are of the most minimal importance. Essentially they are there to make sure the persons other data are not completely inaccurate, and because pencil pushers and the business type people (like Grad School Directors), who typically know absolutely nothing, love arbitrary metrics and require it.

We then almost completely ignore the GRE, and when it is consistent with the metrics we care about, we simply use them (makes the Directors happy), and when they are not consistent with what we care about, we BS an explanation.

Bottom line, your Grad School director, is not making the decisions on who is admitted, so he knows absolutely nothing about why you were actually admitted. Admission decisions are made at the program/department level.

[forgetful]

I took two of them as well, and my test scores helped get me in.  As a freshman at MU I bombed and had to dig out like crazy to get a decent GPA overall.  The test scores did wonders for me per my graduate school director.

A follow up on this. It does depend a lot on what type of graduate program you are going into. Is it a Master's program?

Many of those are pure revenue streams, and that is it. They care about GRE metrics as it makes the program rank higher in things like US NEWS, and justifies charging students more. They want paying bodies in seats, they are fine with using an arbitrary metric to fill the seats. They aren't really concerned with what these people can offer the university besides tuition.

In programs where the University is paying the students to be there (e.g. PhD research positions), the GRE and other scores mean almost nothing to the committees. They look at all the intangibles.

[Cheeks]

Ahh yes, their methodology is not right.  My research guy better than yours.  Etc etc


This is the same arguments people get into about economics, climate, education, etc....tear down the research that doesn’t fit the argument.  I get it, both sides do it and I am guilty as well.

I would also point you to several other studies of data that show same result, but suspect you will also find something with their approach that isn’t agreeable.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Ahh yes, their methodology is not right.  My research guy better than yours.  Etc etc


This is the same arguments people get into about economics, climate, education, etc....tear down the research that doesn’t fit the argument.  I get it, both sides do it and I am guilty as well.

I would also point you to several other studies of data that show same result, but suspect you will also find something with their approach that isn’t agreeable.

Explain to me why schools the caliber of the University of Chicago are making it optional then.

[Cheeks]

Explain to me why schools the caliber of the University of Chicago are making it optional then.

The same reason UC System admins and others stated (and got in trouble), to expand diversity and lower the risk of legal exposure.    If I say more this will be labeled as something else, so I’ll leave it there.  You can find the situations that brought this about and the growing push to achieve a goal academia desires.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

The same reason UC System admins and others stated (and got in trouble), to expand diversity and lower the risk of legal exposure.    If I say more this will be labeled as something else, so I’ll leave it there.  You can find the situations that brought this about and the growing push to achieve a goal academia desires.

But they didn't see any sort of drop off in their graduation rates for disadvantaged students when they made it optional.  That means it doesn't do a good job of determining ability to conduct college work.

[forgetful]

Ahh yes, their methodology is not right.  My research guy better than yours.  Etc etc


This is the same arguments people get into about economics, climate, education, etc....tear down the research that doesn’t fit the argument.  I get it, both sides do it and I am guilty as well.

I would also point you to several other studies of data that show same result, but suspect you will also find something with their approach that isn’t agreeable.

There is a reason fields like education, economics, even medicine etc., are plagued by arguments of poor methodology. It is because the fields are inherently based on correlations. The studies are not science, they are not falsifiable. Many then are simply just bad because they rely on limited data, that may not represent or be applicable to what they are trying to claim.

If you look at the two researchers you referenced own work, they concede that the "test" metric on its own is a very poor predictor of outcome. But if you combine it was other commonly used metrics, it become very predictive. They rely on old data. They do not compare their "test based" metrics to any other systems that schools like U. Chicago, are using.

Their data are actually, in much of their work, refuting what you are claiming here.

The same reason UC System admins and others stated (and got in trouble), to expand diversity and lower the risk of legal exposure.    If I say more this will be labeled as something else, so I’ll leave it there.  You can find the situations that brought this about and the growing push to achieve a goal academia desires.

100% false. They changed their system, because evaluations of internal data, revealed that they had far more data, and metrics related to student outcomes and learning environments that were more predictive of long term success than "test-based" metrics.

They have developed rigorous internal metrics more sophisticated than a test-score and GPA. Many schools are now doing this, including running machine-learning algorithms on their own data to identify which will have the best success, and improve the long term campus community.

[Cheeks]

But they didn't see any sort of drop off in their graduation rates for disadvantaged students when they made it optional.  That means it doesn't do a good job of determining ability to conduct college work.

How do graduation rates necessarily equate to quality of college work? 

C’s get degrees.  A lot of people do poor college work and graduate.  You seem to be equating if one graduates = quality college work.  That doesn’t make it necessarily so.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

How do graduation rates necessarily equate to quality of college work? 

C’s get degrees.  A lot of people do poor college work and graduate.  You seem to be equating if one graduates = quality college work.  That doesn’t make it necessarily so.

I have no idea how those disadvantaged students are performing in college and neither do you.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Marquette to go test optional with 2020 class.

https://www.marquette.edu/news-center/2019/marquette-adopts-test-optional-policy.php

Marquette University today announced its decision to become test optional, offering domestic and international undergraduate applicants the choice to include standardized test scores as part of their application. The policy of no longer requiring ACT and/or SAT scores from all applicants is effective for students applying for entry in fall 2020.

“Our Catholic, Jesuit mission calls on us to keep a Marquette education accessible to a diverse population of students,” President Michael R. Lovell said. “We will further open our doors by making standardized test scores optional in our undergraduate admissions process.”

Marquette now joins a select group of top 100 national universities (based on U.S. News and World Report Best Colleges), as well as a growing number of Jesuit universities that have removed the ACT or SAT as an admission requirement.

“Four years of strong performance in rigorous high school coursework has always been the most important measure in Marquette's holistic admission review,” Acting Provost Kimo Ah Yun said. “Requiring standardized tests was never intended to dissuade individuals from applying who felt they had the capacity to succeed here. We acknowledge, however, that requiring the SAT or ACT may have led to this unintended consequence and aim to address that now.”

Brian Troyer, dean of undergraduate admissions, said he and his team look forward to implementing this policy and continuing their work of carefully evaluating all applicants for admission to Marquette.

“We believe that the Jesuit concept of cura personalis extends to the admissions review process. We have always engaged in a student-centered approach to our work, and the decision to adopt a test-optional policy reinforces those values,” Troyer said. “Students can decide how to best represent their capacity for success at the college level. We believe students are who they are because of their life experiences, work ethic, and their engagement in and out of the classroom.”

Troyer added that the university’s holistic admission review will continue to consider academic achievement in conjunction with a student's unique talents, leadership and service activities, application essay(s), school profile, letters of recommendation, and any other information a student wishes to submit for consideration.

“Considering a variety of application materials within the context of a student's application file will ensure we continue to admit future Marquette University students who will succeed academically and graduate ready to be changemakers in their communities — individuals who are eager to answer our call to Be the Difference,” he said.

Per the new policy, for students who choose to submit an ACT and/or SAT score, the score will be evaluated as a component in the admission review process. All applicants, regardless of test score submission, will have the opportunity to qualify for Marquette’s array of scholarship awards.

Marquette says it will continue to analyze the correlation between standardized testing and academic achievement in college and will evaluate this policy on an ongoing basis.

[Cheeks]

Not surprised in the least based on other decisions

[Herman Cain]

Marquette to go test optional with 2020 class.

https://www.marquette.edu/news-center/2019/marquette-adopts-test-optional-policy.php

Marquette University today announced its decision to become test optional, offering domestic and international undergraduate applicants the choice to include standardized test scores as part of their application. The policy of no longer requiring ACT and/or SAT scores from all applicants is effective for students applying for entry in fall 2020.

“Our Catholic, Jesuit mission calls on us to keep a Marquette education accessible to a diverse population of students,” President Michael R. Lovell said. “We will further open our doors by making standardized test scores optional in our undergraduate admissions process.”

Marquette now joins a select group of top 100 national universities (based on U.S. News and World Report Best Colleges), as well as a growing number of Jesuit universities that have removed the ACT or SAT as an admission requirement.

“Four years of strong performance in rigorous high school coursework has always been the most important measure in Marquette's holistic admission review,” Acting Provost Kimo Ah Yun said. “Requiring standardized tests was never intended to dissuade individuals from applying who felt they had the capacity to succeed here. We acknowledge, however, that requiring the SAT or ACT may have led to this unintended consequence and aim to address that now.”

Brian Troyer, dean of undergraduate admissions, said he and his team look forward to implementing this policy and continuing their work of carefully evaluating all applicants for admission to Marquette.

“We believe that the Jesuit concept of cura personalis extends to the admissions review process. We have always engaged in a student-centered approach to our work, and the decision to adopt a test-optional policy reinforces those values,” Troyer said. “Students can decide how to best represent their capacity for success at the college level. We believe students are who they are because of their life experiences, work ethic, and their engagement in and out of the classroom.”

Troyer added that the university’s holistic admission review will continue to consider academic achievement in conjunction with a student's unique talents, leadership and service activities, application essay(s), school profile, letters of recommendation, and any other information a student wishes to submit for consideration.

“Considering a variety of application materials within the context of a student's application file will ensure we continue to admit future Marquette University students who will succeed academically and graduate ready to be changemakers in their communities — individuals who are eager to answer our call to Be the Difference,” he said.

Per the new policy, for students who choose to submit an ACT and/or SAT score, the score will be evaluated as a component in the admission review process. All applicants, regardless of test score submission, will have the opportunity to qualify for Marquette’s array of scholarship awards.

Marquette says it will continue to analyze the correlation between standardized testing and academic achievement in college and will evaluate this policy on an ongoing basis.

Athletes will still have to take the tests conform with NCAA clearing house regulations. So at least there will be some accountability.

However, the rest of the school can now comfortably be lowered to Chicago State standards which has been the intention of the administration for some time now.

Within  3 years SLU (106) and Marquette (89) will be trading at US News Parity.  MU already has fallen to Parity with Loyola.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Schools with much higher profile that Marquette have done a similar thing.  University of Chicago,  Bowdoin, Bates, etc.  I'm sure they are sinking to Chicago State levels as well huh?

[4everwarriors]

Da bizness of edukasion is alive and well in MKE, hey?

[Disco Hippie]

Schools with much higher profile that Marquette have done a similar thing.  University of Chicago,  Bowdoin, Bates, etc.  I'm sure they are sinking to Chicago State levels as well huh?

Very True, but chances are this is all smoke and mirrors and the overwhelming majority of applicants still submit test scores.   Have any of these "higher academic profile" schools publically reported the percentage of their applicants that didn't submit them?  UofC has been doing this for a couple years now I think so it would be very interesting to see what percentage it is.  My money's on single digits if not a fraction.  To me, if a school really wants to be bold and make a statement, they wouldn't just make test scores optional, they'd outright ban them and go by grades and recommendations alone. 

Going back to my original query, has anyone heard anything about the size of the incoming class in the fall?  That's all I was asking. 

[Cheeks]

Schools with much higher profile that Marquette have done a similar thing.  University of Chicago,  Bowdoin, Bates, etc.  I'm sure they are sinking to Chicago State levels as well huh?

Much different when you come from a position of strength already.  This is right out of social engineering central.

[forgetful]

Schools with much higher profile that Marquette have done a similar thing.  University of Chicago,  Bowdoin, Bates, etc.  I'm sure they are sinking to Chicago State levels as well huh?

Not to mention, what people are observing is that many top students are bypassing spending inordinate amounts of time studying for a pointless standardized test and instead do useful things like:

Develop an app.
Intern at an engineering firm.
Get published working in a biomedical lab.

and many other real world demonstrations of their abilities, dedication and skill that is more predictive on continued success than a stupid test. Internal studies by major universities prior to switching to test optional found that standardized tests were really only predictive of success in the first semester of college.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Much different when you come from a position of strength already.  This is right out of social engineering central.

Marquette isn’t in a position of strength?

[Coleman]

Athletes will still have to take the tests conform with NCAA clearing house regulations. So at least there will be some accountability.

However, the rest of the school can now comfortably be lowered to Chicago State standards which has been the intention of the administration for some time now.

Within  3 years SLU (106) and Marquette (89) will be trading at US News Parity.  MU already has fallen to Parity with Loyola.

Except Marquette hasn't actually really fallen. Its been bouncing between the 70s and 90s for almost 20 years. I distinctly remember when I applied in the early 2000s it was like 94. You can cherry pick any two years to show a rise or decline.

Loyola has made real improvement. SLU has always been close to MU, bouncing around 100.

[muwarrior69]

Hausers transferred. That means nobody wants to go to a loser school like Marquette.

My sources say enrollment will be zero.

Not quite. Symir and Akanno will be the only freshman.

[Lennys Tap]

So MU is lowering standards for the general student body but raising them for their  revenue producing student athletes? Sounds like lose/lose.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

They aren't lowering standards for the general student body.

[Warrior2008]

There are real biases that exist in standardized tests and if Marquette believes doing this will not affect the quality of student they obtain, so be it. But my concern is there seems to be a level of grade inflation that also exists in today’s era. Removing a variable that could help differentiate between the increasing levels of grade inflation makes the admissions process more demanding on the administrators.

Personally I think the fix here is demanding some level of accountability of the testing services to remove, or at the very least limit, the biases that exist rather than getting rid of the tests entirely.

[Coleman]

There are real biases that exist in standardized tests and if Marquette believes doing this will not affect the quality of student they obtain, so be it. But my concern is there seems to be a level of grade inflation that also exists in today’s era. Removing a variable that could help differentiate between the increasing levels of grade inflation makes the admissions process more demanding on the administrators.

That's a legitimate concern. I can't argue with you there.