What is really relevant

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

Al had a very defined system and all players knew their roles. Now, there obviously were hiccups with guys from time to time, but it was very clear system.
Asking what Al would have done is a silly question. Different time, different level coach and very different talent pool within the program. Al had stars playing roles and they bought into it. It sadly appears that Wojo has struggled getting the buy in from his team.

Goose talks around tge answer.  When Toone told Al he wasnt getting the ball enough Al got in a fist fight with him.  Would u have preferred Wojo got in a fust fight with brothers Hauser?
This is simply  another opportunity for those that dont like Wojo to attack him.  I personally like it, wojo is the coach he makes his decisions n lives with them.  Personally i think we r gonna be pretty good next year, defense most likely takes another huge step forward

[jesmu84]

You asked a dumb, unfair question. Al would never have instituted such a system. He would have agreed with anyone who said that kind of system was counter productive and would cause unrest among the players.

Okay....

If Al was 100% sure about something in his program (academics, oncourt strategy, practice policy, etc, etc) and a player said "change that or I'm leaving", what would Al's reaction have been?

[jesmu84]

Al had a very defined system and all players knew their roles. Now, there obviously were hiccups with guys from time to time, but it was very clear system.
Asking what Al would have done is a silly question. Different time, different level coach and very different talent pool within the program. Al had stars playing roles and they bought into it. It sadly appears that Wojo has struggled getting the buy in from his team.

So if a player disagreed with Al over something within Al's program that Al 100% believed in, and that player told Al "change this or I'm leaving", what would Al have said?

[Lennys Tap]

Goose talks around tge answer.  When Toone told Al he wasnt getting the ball enough Al got in a fist fight with him.  Would u have preferred Wojo got in a fust fight with brothers Hauser?

Toone was a freshman who balked at Al's system. So he didn't start and it pissed him off. Al didn't mind if you mouthed off, but if you did somebody was going to end up with a torn shirt and a bloody nose. Different times. "Fust" fights get you fired today.

Al had a system. His players all knew what it was. You followed it or you sat.

Wojo has a system too. 4 out, 1 in - as in 4 guys get out of the way of the 1 guy who's "in". Follow it or transfer.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Al had a very defined system and all players knew their roles. Now, there obviously were hiccups with guys from time to time, but it was very clear system.
Asking what Al would have done is a silly question. Different time, different level coach and very different talent pool within the program. Al had stars playing roles and they bought into it. It sadly appears that Wojo has struggled getting the buy in from his team.

Al had the "Star System".  "We take care of our own".

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Asking what Al would have done is a silly question. Different time, different level coach and very different talent pool within the program. Al had stars playing roles and they bought into it. It sadly appears that Wojo has struggled getting the buy in from his team.

I think this is one of the more accurate statements I've seen the past few days. Whatever the reasons, whatever the alleged drama, Wojo didn't guy buy in from some, all, or most of the players. When it was working well, we had a top 10 team, but the buy in wasn't there to sustain. It is the coaching staff's responsibility to get that buy in.

[MUHoopsFan2]

So if a player disagreed with Al over something within Al's program that Al 100% believed in, and that player told Al "change this or I'm leaving", what would Al have said?

EXCELLENT POST...AND THREAD. Nothing for me to add here. You both nailed it.

I hold all you say to be true...I am speechless because I agree 100%. Good stuff...Goose.

And Lenny on the AL comments...dead stop on. Those were different times. That is exactly what would have happened with Al McGuire running the team.

I also liked the 4 and out vs the 1 in and 4 out analogy used. Wojo came from Duke where that was the case...

The Hauser's just happened to be here when they did not have a strong PG like AL always did to spearhead his system like Butch Lee and Dean Meminger and Lloyd Walton so that the other players fit in the roles that they were best in.

....

 

[MUHoopsFan2]

I think this is one of the more accurate statements I've seen the past few days. Whatever the reasons, whatever the alleged drama, Wojo didn't guy buy in from some, all, or most of the players. When it was working well, we had a top 10 team, but the buy in wasn't there to sustain. It is the coaching staff's responsibility to get that buy in.

It is not a "silly question" at all. In fact, it helps shed light and explain a great deal.

It is silly to those that do not know what Goose or Lenny are saying...and I do. Basketball is  basketball...

What do you mean, whatever the reason? Those post just gave you the reason in contrast or comparison of the two eras and coaches, and systems and teams from then to now.

It's all connected. There was no such thing as transfers back then in the 70's so leaving like a baby was not an option. And there was no 1 and done system.

And if you were really good or itching to get to the Pro's you stayed out your 4 years until at least your junior year. So you knew coming in that if you did not like a coach or a system 

In fact, it would be interesting to answer if any of you an go back to Al McGuire...no let me make a thread about this...hold on...

[MUHoopsFan2]

WHO OR WHICH MU PLAYER IN LAST 7 YEARS COULD HAVE PLAYED FOR 'AL?'

I there are not many and I only bring this up because of the use of the comparison used here in this thread on Wojo vs AL.

I think that Al McGuire would have really liked ALL of the players that Buzz Williams had recruited and Tom Crean.

Jerel McNeal 'Al' would have loved and was like Butch Lee, . . .  I might come back to this later as I do not want to hijack the previous posts but it is very tantalizing to consider.

[Jon]

a strong PG like AL always did to spearhead his system like Butch Lee and Dean Meminger and Lloyd Walton so that the other players fit in the roles that they were best in.

Butch was a 2. Walton and Boylan played the 1 during his time at MU.

[Silent Verbal]

Using some fictional Al McGuire scenario that never did and never would've happened as a way to try and prop Wojo up is dumb.

Here's the real question:  Would Jay Wright have voted for Al as BE COY?  I think not, folks.  Therefore Wojo is greater than or at least equal to Al.

[MUHoopsFan2]

Al had a very defined system and all players knew their roles. Now, there obviously were hiccups with guys from time to time, but it was very clear system.
Asking what Al would have done is a silly question. Different time, different level coach and very different talent pool within the program. Al had stars playing roles and they bought into it. It sadly appears that Wojo has struggled getting the buy in from his team.

Excellent ...

But I will say this and not dominate the thread any longer...

Al had the right guys at the most important position [PG] that made the others all fall in line.

You can't always blame Wojo and the coaches! That is what all of you in here seem to be doing. It's not that simple...

You have to blame the players because THEY WERE WINNING WITH WHAT THEY WERE DOING.....and then they stopped after a tough loss and splitting up.

Unfortunate. But time to move on.

[Goose]

HoopsFan2

You should do some research on Al's teams before making references to that era. That said, I am happy you posted regarding the type of player Al had in his program. Al had the right guys at all positions, but did have PG covered in big time way. Again, Al had system and recruited to match that system.

[4everwarriors]

I don't know if Sugar Frazier was more talented than Allie (close call) but he wasn't as good a basketball player. The story (told by Al on the banquet circuit) is that George approached Al and asked why Allie was starting ahead of him. "I'm just as good as Allie", Sugar asserted. Jokingly Al replied, "That's my son, Sugar - if you're gonna beat him out it's gotta be a KO. He wins all ties!"

Verbatim and exactly right, Lenny Man!

[The Sultan]

1. What Al would have done 40+ years ago is largely irrelevant.  Different era requires different skills

2. People are largely correct that if players came to him and demanded a change, he would have not reacted well.

3. But Al would have handled the entire situation better.  He would have had a better pulse of his team.

4. But if a three year starter and his brother announced they were leaving, Al would be given the benefit of the doubt because Al was a much better coach than Wojo is now.

[jesmu84]

1. What Al would have done 40+ years ago is largely irrelevant.  Different era requires different skills

2. People are largely correct that if players came to him and demanded a change, he would have not reacted well.

3. But Al would have handled the entire situation better.  He would have had a better pulse of his team.

4. But if a three year starter and his brother announced they were leaving, Al would be given the benefit of the doubt because Al was a much better coach than Wojo is now.

That's all I'm trying to say.

The other 3 points here are exactly spot on.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm not trying to prop wojo up or explain away what has happened. It should never have come to the ultimatum, but when it did, he made the right decision.

[tower912]

OK, what did Buzz do when a player (and his father) told Buzz that the offense should be run though said player?   This isn't hypothetical.   It happened.  Did Buzz capitulate?   Did Buzz have enough credibility then?   Did the season continue?  How about the next?    Explain the difference.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

OK, what did Buzz do when a player (and his father) told Buzz that the offense should be run though said player?   This isn't hypothetical.   It happened.  Did Buzz capitulate?   Did Buzz have enough credibility then?   Did the season continue?  How about the next?    Explain the difference.

They are different scenarios because there wasn't 3 years of history with everything being 'fine'.  If Buzz kicked butler to the curb his rising sr year (after only 2 years of history) people would have howled.  It speaks to something bigger than the final confrontation.

[jesmu84]

OK, what did Buzz do when a player (and his father) told Buzz that the offense should be run though said player?   This isn't hypothetical.   It happened.  Did Buzz capitulate?   Did Buzz have enough credibility then?   Did the season continue?  How about the next?    Explain the difference.

Thank you.

Coaches shouldn't give into player's threats/demands.

(This does not absolve anything with wojos program leading up to the Hauser ultimatum)

[muguru]

OK, what did Buzz do when a player (and his father) told Buzz that the offense should be run though said player?   This isn't hypothetical.   It happened.  Did Buzz capitulate?   Did Buzz have enough credibility then?   Did the season continue?  How about the next?    Explain the difference.

The difference is...everyone seems to think that this is what happened with the Hauser situation..It isn't. They didn't need/expect the offense to be run through them(and dad wasn't involved), it was as simple as Wojo's failure to reign Markus in, especially late in the season.

Which honestly, you have to wonder why he didn't..he "reigned" in Rowsey 2 years ago when he was jack happy. Sat him to start a game and after that, he was much more of a distributor than he had been. And we never heard about any complaints from players that prompted that change, so you can assume Wojo realized it was a problem on his own, and changed it before it became a bigger issue.

But in this instance, he had several diff players, several different times go to him about reigning Markus in, and each time, he failed to do so. That's his own f'n fault. 

[jesmu84]

The difference is...everyone seems to think that this is what happened with the Hauser situation..It isn't. They didn't need/expect the offense to be run through them(and dad wasn't involved), it was as simple as Wojo's failure to reign Markus in, especially late in the season.

Which honestly, you have to wonder why he didn't..he "reigned" in Rowsey 2 years ago when he was jack happy. Sat him to start a game and after that, he was much more of a distributor than he had been. And we never heard about any complaints from players that prompted that change, so you can assume Wojo realized it was a problem on his own, and changed it before it became a bigger issue.

But in this instance, he had several diff players, several different times go to him about reigning Markus in, and each time, he failed to do so. That's his own f'n fault.

Yup

And then when a player made an ultimatum, much like happened with buzz, the player was sent packing.

[Lennys Tap]

OK, what did Buzz do when a player (and his father) told Buzz that the offense should be run though said player?   This isn't hypothetical.   It happened.  Did Buzz capitulate?   Did Buzz have enough credibility then?   Did the season continue?  How about the next?    Explain the difference.

Maymon was a college freshman non starter six games into his Marquette experience when his FATHER (not him) insisted on a meeting with the coaching staff. He demanded that his son start, that the son play a different position and that the offense run through his son. Buzz threw Tim Maymon out of his office and kicked Jeronne off of the team. Jerome (literally) cried and begged to be reinstated. Buzz said no. To my knowledge nobody on the team thought Tim Maymon's demands had even a scintilla of merit to them.

Sam was a 3 year starter who had played more than 100 games at Marquette. He was an established star and leader. Wojo had sufficiently sold him on his "The strength of our team is our team" concept that he helped recruit his brother to MU. Over time special treatment for one player both on and off the court made Sam, his brother and other team members feel that the concept was nothing more than a slogan without any meaning. Team meetings were held, promises were made but nothing changed. Two of our best players decided they couldn't take it any more and announced their transfer. Maybe others will follow, maybe not - but it's pretty clear others are disgruntled too.

Hope that explains the difference.

[MU82]

They didn't need/expect the offense to be run through them(and dad wasn't involved

How do we know that "dad wasn't involved"?

Just asking, so don't bite my head off. I don't know that Papa Hauser was involved, although the quotes from the high school coach sure seem to talk about discontent with the parents.

I'm not knowledgeable enough about the situation to say that Daddy and Mommy were or weren't involved, but apparently you are somehow?

[cheebs09]

This talk of "the strength of our team is our team" being an empty slogan reminds me of when Wojo called the white tee shirt thing a gimmick after the team seemed to buy in during Henry's year.

[Jon]

OK, what did Buzz do when a player (and his father) told Buzz that the offense should be run though said player?   This isn't hypothetical.   It happened.  Did Buzz capitulate?   Did Buzz have enough credibility then?   Did the season continue?  How about the next?    Explain the difference.

You need to understand the underlying causes and issues before you begin making obtuse comparisons.

Comparing Tim Maymon to Dave and Stephanie Hauser is both churlish and insulting to a fine family.

This isn't one of your insipid ten observations lists you post within seconds of the final buzzer of each Marquette game. This is a life altering event that was taken with considerable deliberation by good people who had legitimate concerns about the coach.

Instead of listening and understanding their concerns, which were not centered on how many times their sons got the ball by the way, Wojo patronized them with trite, banal platitudes which trivialized their feelings.

And it's not just the Hausers. Wojo has a major mutiny going on - we could lose many more.

Your comparison of Tim Maymon with the Hauser family is not just flawed intellectually but deeply repulsive. Like your Top Ten lists it is both tedious and unremarkable.