Poll:Let’s stop beating around the bush

[slingkong]

Legally speaking ageism only works up. You must be over 40 years old in order to claim age discrimination. Legally, you can't claim you are being discriminated against for being young.

Clearly laws that were written by and for old people.

[MU82]

Cheeks said it's about trend line, he didn't give specifics...so based on what HE said, trending up, is trending up. He won't let me use specific #'s to support my argument, so the goal posts can't change now.

OK, sorry to interject myself in the deep conversation between you and chicos.

For the record, I do believe "trending up" is important. But as I said in another thread ...

He has a 3-year stretch of NCAA-NIT-NCAA ... with the latter including a 2nd-place finish and a 5-seed ... and with everybody coming back ... and with a good transfer becoming eligible ... and with a key injured player coming back ... and with at least one good recruit already on the hook ... and with several other recruits seriously considering MU ... and with near sellout crowds at an NBA arena most games ... and with a team full of kids who have represented the university perfectly.

In other words, even if one does think Mullin's up-trend is exactly the same as Wojo's, there are many other factors.

And you are smart enough to know it, guru.

And you also are smart enough to know that we've all wasted a LOT of words on whether or not a firing should take place when there is 0.00% chance that a firing will take place. So you are beating your head against a rock for nothing.

But yeah ... I know ... you are more competitive at beating your head against a rock than the rest of us are and you have higher expectations when it comes to head/rock contact!

[muguru]

OK, sorry to interject myself in the deep conversation between you and chicos.

For the record, I do believe "trending up" is important. But as I said in another thread ...

He has a 3-year stretch of NCAA-NIT-NCAA ... with the latter including a 2nd-place finish and a 5-seed ... and with everybody coming back ... and with a good transfer becoming eligible ... and with a key injured player coming back ... and with at least one good recruit already on the hook ... and with several other recruits seriously considering MU ... and with near sellout crowds at an NBA arena most games ... and with a team full of kids who have represented the university perfectly.

In other words, even if one does think Mullin's up-trend is exactly the same as Wojo's, there are many other factors.

And you are smart enough to know it, guru.

And you also are smart enough to know that we've all wasted a LOT of words on whether or not a firing should take place when there is 0.00% chance that a firing will take place. So you are beating your head against a rock for nothing.

But yeah ... I know ... you are more competitive at beating your head against a rock than the rest of us are and you have higher expectations when it comes to head/rock contact!

So let me ask you this, in all seriousness...when WOULD you make a move on letting Wojo go?? You cited everything above about how next year is supposed to be better...I don't disagree with that...so how far below expectations would next year have to be before you(or really anyone can answer this), would decide it was time for him to go after NEXT year?? Or would you give him another year after that?? And then another year after that, etc?? I'm curious what people's "breaking" points are?? I don't really want to hear "well it depends on how the season plays out etc"...I just want to know flat out, regardless of anything else, how far below expectations would they have to be next year for the move to occur?? If they miss the tournament?? is that enough?? Make it and get bounced right away(as a higher seed)? What would it take??

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

So let me ask you this, in all seriousness...when WOULD you make a move on letting Wojo go?? You cited everything above about how next year is supposed to be better...I don't disagree with that...so how far below expectations would next year have to be before you(or really anyone can answer this), would decide it was time for him to go after NEXT year?? Or would you give him another year after that?? And then another year after that, etc?? I'm curious what people's "breaking" points are?? I don't really want to hear "well it depends on how the season plays out etc"...I just want to know flat out, regardless of anything else, how far below expectations would they have to be next year for the move to occur?? If they miss the tournament?? is that enough?? Make it and get bounced right away(as a higher seed)? What would it take??

Missing the tournament. 

[muguru]

Missing the tournament.

So as long as they get in to the tourney, results in the tournament are irrelevant?? I'm not criticizing, I'm just asking. I'm also curious, IF missing the tournament is what it would take, and as long as they did that(with the best team he has ever had at MU), should that really be the bar for a team that could/should be as good as we all think it is?? Just making the tournament?? I mean this years team made the tournament...and if next years team is supposed to be much better..

[jesmu84]

So let me ask you this, in all seriousness...when WOULD you make a move on letting Wojo go?? You cited everything above about how next year is supposed to be better...I don't disagree with that...so how far below expectations would next year have to be before you(or really anyone can answer this), would decide it was time for him to go after NEXT year?? Or would you give him another year after that?? And then another year after that, etc?? I'm curious what people's "breaking" points are?? I don't really want to hear "well it depends on how the season plays out etc"...I just want to know flat out, regardless of anything else, how far below expectations would they have to be next year for the move to occur?? If they miss the tournament?? is that enough?? Make it and get bounced right away(as a higher seed)? What would it take??

Missing the tournament*

*Assuming next year's roster is as-expected (no surprise departures) and no significant injuries before or during the season

[muguru]

Missing the tournament*

*Assuming next year's roster is as-expected (no surprise departures) and no significant injuries before or during the season

Again, not criticizing, but is that a "fair" bar to have for the best team(some think possible top 10-15 team all season) Wojo has ever had?? Just making the tournament?? What if for example they go into the tourney as a 3/4 seed and lose their first game(again). Is that fine??

Now admittedly, IF there were significant departures(Like Markus, Sam, Joey etc) or significant injuries, and depending on if he went after and landed any grad transfers etc to try to fill what left...then I could possibly see just making the tournament as being enough...but if things are as we all think they will be, should just making the tournament be enough??

[jesmu84]

Again, not criticizing, but is that a "fair" bar to have for the best team(some think possible top 10-15 team all season) Wojo has ever had?? Just making the tournament?? What if for example they go into the tourney as a 3/4 seed and lose their first game(again). Is that fine??

Now admittedly, IF there were significant departures(Like Markus, Sam, Joey etc) or significant injuries, and depending on if he went after and landed any grad transfers etc to try to fill what left...then I could possibly see just making the tournament as being enough...but if things are as we all think they will be, should just making the tournament be enough??

Yup. Just make the tourney. Elite teams can and do lose in the tourney for a variety of reasons. One single loss, even in the tourney, isn't going to ever make me want to fire a coach. Body of work.

[muguru]

Yup. Just make the tourney. Elite teams can and do lose in the tourney for a variety of reasons. One single loss, even in the tourney, isn't going to ever make me want to fire a coach. Body of work.

Okay, fair enough..That's where you set the bar..I'm curious where others would be?? As far as Elite teams losing in the tourney, that is correct...HOWEVER, they won...a lot in tourneys prior to that, that's how they became Elite..Once you are at the top, a few slip ups here and there are acceptable, but when you are trying to get to the top of that mountain, EVERY slip up, is another slip down the mountain.

[Herman Cain]

So let me ask you this, in all seriousness...when WOULD you make a move on letting Wojo go?? You cited everything above about how next year is supposed to be better...I don't disagree with that...so how far below expectations would next year have to be before you(or really anyone can answer this), would decide it was time for him to go after NEXT year?? Or would you give him another year after that?? And then another year after that, etc?? I'm curious what people's "breaking" points are?? I don't really want to hear "well it depends on how the season plays out etc"...I just want to know flat out, regardless of anything else, how far below expectations would they have to be next year for the move to occur?? If they miss the tournament?? is that enough?? Make it and get bounced right away(as a higher seed)? What would it take??

I am in the camp of every season stands on its own merit. There is no we will be better or worse next year in my view. So the decision to retain or move on to another candidate is based on the body of work to date.

From the standpoint of MU administration the following are known positives:
1. Attendance high
2. Student engagement in program high
3. The kids on the team represent the school well.
4. The program is consistently in the top half of the Conference.
5. Visibility and branding of the University is high

The unknown factors are:
1. Status of Key Donors satisfaction with progress of program
2. Student Athlete end of year evaluation of coaching staff is positive or negative
3 . Potential of program consistently being in the tournament
4. Ability to attract top tier recruits is consistent from year to year

I think when the preponderance of the above are negative or trending down it becomes time to make a change .

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

So as long as they get in to the tourney, results in the tournament are irrelevant?? I'm not criticizing, I'm just asking. I'm also curious, IF missing the tournament is what it would take, and as long as they did that(with the best team he has ever had at MU), should that really be the bar for a team that could/should be as good as we all think it is?? Just making the tournament?? I mean this years team made the tournament...and if next years team is supposed to be much better..

You asked under what circumstances should he be fired next year.  Missing the tournament.

If he makes it as a seven seed and they lose to a 10?  Not fired.  But the trendline heads the other direction which puts him on notice. 

[MU82]

So let me ask you this, in all seriousness...when WOULD you make a move on letting Wojo go??

The problem with these hypothetical situations -- which many Scoopers really love to throw out there -- is they don't allow for nuance. Or, for that matter, real life.

But sure, I'll play ...

Barring some crazy circumstance out of his control, missing the tournament would make me want to bring in another coach. That would be a major step backward, and I have said several times that when the trend turns downward -- as it did for Miles and Anderson and several other fired coaches this year -- I don't think I would gripe about Wojo getting the heave-ho.

Making the tournament, losing in the first round and not having good recruits coming in ... that would at least maybe make me think that he can't do the job. But I'd have to see what the actual situation is in real time before I can say anything definitive.

But if we have another solid season, draw good crowds to Fiserv and easily make the tournament ... but get upset in the first round (as three 5-seeds did this year and as Virginia did in 2018 as a 1-seed) ... and if we have another solid recruiting class coming in to go with Joey, BB, Koby, Theo, etc ... no, I would not consider that a "fireable offense." At least I don't think so as we sit here today without knowing what is happening in real time next March.

[21rooster]

You asked under what circumstances should he be fired next year.  Missing the tournament.

If he makes it as a seven seed and they lose to a 10?  Not fired.  But the trendline heads the other direction which puts him on notice.

Count how many coaches in the NCAA tourney get fired this year.  Add that to the number of coaches that were fired after making it last year.  Why not...make it the last two. Having trouble coming up with any?  Those making these decisions know more about the challenges of making the tourney than a bunch of internet posters. 

[ZiggysFryBoy]

You don't seem to know what mediocre means. We made the tournament, which puts us ahead of 48 of 87 high major programs. Only 15 high majors had a higher seed than we did. That puts us in the 83rd percentile of high major programs.

Are YOU happy with the 83rd percentile??  I demand 90th or HIGHER.  I'm not settling for ANYTHING less and neither should you or any other MU fan.  83rd percentile would be a low B.  I am entitled to a program that gets A's and ONLY A's. 

[Coleman]

I am in the camp of every season stands on its own merit. There is no we will be better or worse next year in my view. So the decision to retain or move on to another candidate is based on the body of work to date.

But that's not how college basketball works. Recruiting and future teams should play a huge role in the evaluation of the coach.

Honest question: Would you fire a coach with a top 10 recruiting class coming in next year because he had a stinker of a season? Or would you reserve judgment and see how that recruiting class performed? If you fire him, it is safe to assume most of those recruits de-commit.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Count how many coaches in the NCAA tourney get fired this year.  Add that to the number of coaches that were fired after making it last year.  Why not...make it the last two. Having trouble coming up with any?  Those making these decisions know more about the challenges of making the tourney than a bunch of internet posters. 

Exactly.  Do you know how much the local and national media would lambast MU if they fired a coach that just lead them to their best season in six years?

[Cheeks]

Exactly.  Do you know how much the local and national media would lambast MU if they fired a coach that just lead them to their best season in six years?

But that would be because the media doesn’t understand what we should be.

[Herman Cain]

But that's not how college basketball works. Recruiting and future teams should play a huge role in the evaluation of the coach.

Honest question: Would you fire a coach with a top 10 recruiting class coming in next year because he had a stinker of a season? Or would you reserve judgment and see how that recruiting class performed? If you fire him, it is safe to assume most of those recruits de-commit.

Recruit rankings are not worth the paper they are written on. All ADs know that. Our 2013 class was a top 10 class for example. So recruiting is only properly assessed in hindsight.

To answer your question, I laid out a whole group of parameters. All of those factors are taken into consideration as a whole. 

Buzz was effectively fired/let go and his incoming class was highly regarded on paper (Ahmed Hill,Marial Shayok, Sandy Cohen ,Satchel Paige plus Luke Fischer transfer)

[Herman Cain]

Polls are still open

[Herman Cain]

Polls still open

[Lennys Tap]

Polls still open

Oh good - weeks later we're still trying to stop beating around the bush!

[tower912]

Still going to be 85-15.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Oh good - weeks later we're still trying to stop beating around the bush!

Hermie is just beating the bush

[MU82]

Hermie is just beating the bush

He's about to join the Fed, so he's on Cloud 9-9-9!