Zion

[Charlotte Warrior]

That's funny...my memory was that it was Duke, and I had originally typed that because I thought it was an interesting coincidence.  But then when I googled to see if I could find a video to link, I came across this wiki article:  "The Kansas game was televised on ESPN and was remembered for showcasing Robb's uncanny knack for destorying [sic] L.A. Gear shoes."  I guess I should have trusted my memory.  But I'm getting old...and the memory isn't what it used to be.

It happened more than once, as I remember that after a few games - mid-season - we changed shoes over to Nike because of repeated LA Gear failures.  I remember that talk on campus before the season was WHY in the heck did ONeil change to LA GEAR - must have gotten alot of $$$$?  But it was definitely that first game of the season, on the road, freshman pg - at Cameron -  first game in the new show brand - and his shoe just blows out - First time I ever saw that.  Also - that games wasn't near as close as the score.   

[Pakuni]

For the 18 billionth time. No one is making them go to college. They have the options of going to play in the G-league, Europe, or a number of other professional leagues around the world.

They made the personal decision that what was best for their long term interests was College, knowing full well the different economic options out there.

By why the rigged system that prevents a kid from maximizing his talents? And why does this rigged system apply only to basketball and football players? Why could Austin Matthews play at the top level of pro hockey as an 18-year-old, but Zion Williamson is somehow unprepared for the NBA?

I mean, nobody tells a a brilliant software engineer, "Hey, kid, you're good enough to be a star at Google, but first you have to spend a year at DuckDuckGo." Of course not. Because we all want a system where someone can maximize their talents. Unless he plays basketball or football.

[Jockey]

Race got brought up. Some categorize race as politics so 4ever is suggesting that this thread will be locked for talking politics.

Is there a Google translator for this?

[Jockey]

Yep, D'Lo ... trolls will troll.

Must be painful, Mike, when chico and heisy are teaming up against you

[Jockey]

For the 18 billionth time. No one is making them go to college. They have the options of going to play in the G-league, Europe, or a number of other professional leagues around the world.

Serious question.

Do you favor age rather than ability for a kid to be allowed to play in the NBA? Your post seems to be saying that, but I could be reading it wrong.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Just to clear something up, is anyone here against the one and done rule ending?

I don't think the NCAA should have to pay players the way some are suggesting. But I'm seeing a lot of arguments complaining about players not being able to go to the NBA right away. Those are two completely separate topics to me. I'm all for the one and done/free and three (for football) ending but that's an NBA/NFL issue, not an NCAA one.

[Cheeks]

By why the rigged system that prevents a kid from maximizing his talents? And why does this rigged system apply only to basketball and football players? Why could Austin Matthews play at the top level of pro hockey as an 18-year-old, but Zion Williamson is somehow unprepared for the NBA?

I mean, nobody tells a a brilliant software engineer, "Hey, kid, you're good enough to be a star at Google, but first you have to spend a year at DuckDuckGo." Of course not. Because we all want a system where someone can maximize their talents. Unless he plays basketball or football.

Because life isn't perfect and solutions don't exist in a vacuum for every instance in every sport....or for that matter a lot of things in life.  Why it is someone in an urban area can get to a hospital in 5 minutes, but there are millions of Americans that are at least 20 minutes from a hospital?  Why is it that some people live within 10 minutes of an ice rink and others are no closer than 250 miles.  Because life isn't so simple, or fair, or just, and we don't live in unicorn land and real costs, legalities, etc come into play.  You are a pragmatic person most of the time, I don't understand why this one is so difficult for you and others. 

Just on a practical level, should the age limit for all sports be the same?  Are all bodies ready to take on that stress, maturity, etc?  Or let me flip your question, why can't we have basketball players a minimum of 3 years in college like some other sports if they don't come out of high school?  Let's make sure there is consistency in your arguments.

[Cheeks]

Must be painful, Mike, when chico and heisy are teaming up against you

O Canada! Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide, O Canada,
We stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land, glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee;
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee

[Cheeks]

Just to clear something up, is anyone here against the one and done rule ending?

I don't think the NCAA should have to pay players the way some are suggesting. But I'm seeing a lot of arguments complaining about players not being able to go to the NBA right away. Those are two completely separate topics to me. I'm all for the one and done/free and three (for football) ending but that's an NBA/NFL issue, not an NCAA one.

You and I remain on same page....again, I'm sorry for that.      They are two completely different issues.  Get rid of the one and done. If kids want to go directly, God Bless them.  For the rest of the 99%, college ball is there for you.  I can't wait for the NBA to start complaining that they drafted these high school kids that aren't very good because they misjudged, but that is what will happen.  Can't escape it. The NBA has the NCAA save them from making poor decisions, and that will now change. 

#JustDoIt 

[wadesworld]

No strong opinion either way on the 1 and done rule.  As a college basketball fan I do like seeing the top players in college for a year.  And I think a majority of the time even if a top player out of high school doesn't perform up to expectations in their freshman year it doesn't hurt their draft stock all that much, so I don't think it kills them.

But if they want to go and start making money then good for them.

[4everwarriors]

Duz da water train run ta Kanada, hey?

[D'Lo Brown]

Must be painful, Mike, when chico and heisy are teaming up against you

[Dr. Blackheart]

Just to clear something up, is anyone here against the one and done rule ending?

I don't think the NCAA should have to pay players the way some are suggesting. But I'm seeing a lot of arguments complaining about players not being able to go to the NBA right away. Those are two completely separate topics to me. I'm all for the one and done/free and three (for football) ending but that's an NBA/NFL issue, not an NCAA one.

To me if one goes away, the other one won't matter.  One a done affects maybe 25-50 players, tops.

If Cam blew out his shoe, it wouldn't even make scoop.

[forgetful]

By why the rigged system that prevents a kid from maximizing his talents? And why does this rigged system apply only to basketball and football players? Why could Austin Matthews play at the top level of pro hockey as an 18-year-old, but Zion Williamson is somehow unprepared for the NBA?

I mean, nobody tells a a brilliant software engineer, "Hey, kid, you're good enough to be a star at Google, but first you have to spend a year at DuckDuckGo." Of course not. Because we all want a system where someone can maximize their talents. Unless he plays basketball or football.

Actually there are a lot of restrictions on working in many industries that are based on age, where it doesn't matter how good you are, you have to wait to meet the age restrictions.

Serious question.

Do you favor age rather than ability for a kid to be allowed to play in the NBA? Your post seems to be saying that, but I could be reading it wrong.

I don't favor one or the other. I recognize the fact that some industries self-regulate with age restrictions and it is perfectly legal. The NBA has agreed to these age restrictions.

My only point was that the college players have options. Players in college have chosen it as their best option for their long term profit. They aren't "victimized," they chose this out of several options.

It's like choosing to go to McDonald's because it is cheaper, and then complaining that the you were victimized because the burgers weren't made with Kobe beef like the gourmet restaurant down the street.

[MU82]

Must be painful, Mike, when chico and heisy are teaming up against you

Thoughts and prayers to me, I guess.

[Pakuni]

Actually there are a lot of restrictions on working in many industries that are based on age, where it doesn't matter how good you are, you have to wait to meet the age restrictions.

Really? Lots in many industries?
Outside of age requirements created by law (i.e. a 16-year-old can't sell alcohol, an 80-year-old can't be a commercial airline pilot) what are some of many industries that impose lots of restrictions upon adult workers?

And, as if this weren't already a timely enough discussion, apparently the NBA has decided its age requirement isn't all that necessary.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26049542/nba-proposes-changing-draft-age-19-18-players-union

[Not A Serious Person]

Another way that Zion was screwed ... Darren Rovell is reporting that he has an insurance contract but he is woefully under-insured.

https://www.actionnetwork.com/ncaab/zion-williamson-insurance-policy-injury-duke-unc-2019

Duke's Zion Williamson, who went down with a flukey knee injury on Wednesday night vs. UNC, has a Loss of Value insurance policy worth up to $8 million.

---

“The university usually isn’t insuring the guys to their full value,” said Ronnie Kaymore, CEO of Kaymore Sports Risk Management, which specializes in advising athletes for their insurance injury protection. “Often the amount a school takes out is driven by the school’s budget.”

Kaymore says he thinks the athletes should shop for the insurance themselves and then show schools the cost, instead of the school just deciding how much it will pay.

Kaymore says Williamson is worth as much as seven times what Duke has insured his loss of value for. He should get an $18 million rookie deal, along with the ability to earn another $30-50 million in endorsement deals.

Williamson is not the only one. It has happened at many schools. Saquon Barkley notoriously had only $2 million in total disability and only $1 million in loss of value insurance at Penn State, sources said.

Barkley, who was taken second overall by the Giants in last year’s NFL draft, was immediately worth $40 million in contract and endorsements.

There’s another reason why the amount has to be even higher to protect the athlete: The proceeds from an insurance collection can be taxed if the insured doesn’t pay the policy themselves. Otherwise, it’s tax deductible.

Don’t pay collegiate athletes? You can argue about that. But at least fully protect them.

[wadesworld]

Another way that Zion was screwed ... Darren Rovell is reporting that he has an insurance contract but he is woefully under-insured.

https://www.actionnetwork.com/ncaab/zion-williamson-insurance-policy-injury-duke-unc-2019

Duke's Zion Williamson, who went down with a flukey knee injury on Wednesday night vs. UNC, has a Loss of Value insurance policy worth up to $8 million.

---

“The university usually isn’t insuring the guys to their full value,” said Ronnie Kaymore, CEO of Kaymore Sports Risk Management, which specializes in advising athletes for their insurance injury protection. “Often the amount a school takes out is driven by the school’s budget.”

Kaymore says he thinks the athletes should shop for the insurance themselves and then show schools the cost, instead of the school just deciding how much it will pay.

Kaymore says Williamson is worth as much as seven times what Duke has insured his loss of value for. He should get an $18 million rookie deal, along with the ability to earn another $30-50 million in endorsement deals.

Williamson is not the only one. It has happened at many schools. Saquon Barkley notoriously had only $2 million in total disability and only $1 million in loss of value insurance at Penn State, sources said.

Barkley, who was taken second overall by the Giants in last year’s NFL draft, was immediately worth $40 million in contract and endorsements.

There’s another reason why the amount has to be even higher to protect the athlete: The proceeds from an insurance collection can be taxed if the insured doesn’t pay the policy themselves. Otherwise, it’s tax deductible.

Don’t pay collegiate athletes? You can argue about that. But at least fully protect them.

He’s day to day with a grade 1 knee sprain. He’s not having his leg amputated.

[Pakuni]

Because life isn't perfect and solutions don't exist in a vacuum for every instance in every sport....or for that matter a lot of things in life.  Why it is someone in an urban area can get to a hospital in 5 minutes, but there are millions of Americans that are at least 20 minutes from a hospital?  Why is it that some people live within 10 minutes of an ice rink and others are no closer than 250 miles.  Because life isn't so simple, or fair, or just, and we don't live in unicorn land and real costs, legalities, etc come into play.  You are a pragmatic person most of the time, I don't understand why this one is so difficult for you and others. 

At what point do you realize that "life isn't perfect/fair" is always terrible argument, typically offered by those with nothing intelligent to say on a subject?
And I'm a little (OK, a lot) befuddled at how you somehow analogize the NBA's capricious age rule to how far one lives from an ice rink. Did you think that made sense somehow?

Just on a practical level, should the age limit for all sports be the same?  Are all bodies ready to take on that stress, maturity, etc?

What does age have to do with a body's ability to take on professional basketball? Is Sam Hauser more physically suited for the NBA than Zion Williamson because he's two years older?
And once a person reaches adulthood, I don't think there should be any age limit opposed except for legal reasons or if age somehow is an actual requirement to perform the work. And given that many players directly out of high school have gone on to NBA stardom, one can't reasonably make that argument.

Or let me flip your question, why can't we have basketball players a minimum of 3 years in college like some other sports if they don't come out of high school?  Let's make sure there is consistency in your arguments.

I assume you're talking about baseball here, because it's the only sport that almost fits the bill. You're not quite correct (a kid can go to JUCO and stay for one or two years before turning pro), but I'll play along because it's not an apples to apples situation. MLB, unlike the NBA, allows a kid to go pro out of high school. So how is this comparable?

I've long suggested the NBA should shift to an NHL draft model. Let teams draft kids out of high school and retain his rights for two years or, if the kid chooses to go to college, until 30 days after he leaves. Colleges win because they'll still get most of the top players. Teams win because they won't have to draft unprepared kids and stash them on the roster while playing them. Players win because it will give them a choice of attending college or not.
But, of course, hockey players for some reason very different than basketball players. I mean, sure dozens of 18 year olds have handled life in the very soft and not at all physical NHL over the years, but the NBA is way too tough for that.

[Not A Serious Person]

He’s day to day with a grade 1 knee sprain. He’s not having his leg amputated.

Yes, but the story above says that the instant his named is called at the June draft he gets between $48m and $68m ($18m rookie deal plus $30m to $50m in endorsements).  If he gets hurt he gets $8 million in insurance which is immediately taxable.  So, roughly $5m after tax.

If Zion goes sky-diving, rides a motorcycle, or plays in a pickup game it is understood all these activities are too risky (recall the Kansas City Chiefs banned Mohames from playing pickup bball as it was deemed too risky).

So given all this, why isn't it irresponsible from him to return to Duke?  Many NBA players understand this which is why they are telling him to shut it down.  We had a thread on Scottie Pippen telling him this and Demarcus Cousin said it above.


ADDED LATER

If your answer is something like "maybe he loves playing for Duke.  Coach K will accept that.  But If Zion also wants to skydive, ride a motorcycle to practice or play in pickup games in the Quad, would K be as approving?

My point is he is an extraordinary talent with an unbelievable upside like no college player has had before him.  The most irresponsible thing he can do now it return to Duke. Coach K knows this and should do what is best for Zion, not himself.

[forgetful]

Really? Lots in many industries?
Outside of age requirements created by law (i.e. a 16-year-old can't sell alcohol, an 80-year-old can't be a commercial airline pilot) what are some of many industries that impose lots of restrictions upon adult workers?

And, as if this weren't already a timely enough discussion, apparently the NBA has decided its age requirement isn't all that necessary.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26049542/nba-proposes-changing-draft-age-19-18-players-union

I'm not going to go through and list every age requirement/restriction on employment in certain industries. There are myriad examples.

If you want a simple one. Ride sharing.

For Lyft, you must be 21.
For Uber, you must have at least 1-yr driving experience, or 3 years if you are under 23. Putting a minimum age of 19.

Not that dissimilar from the NBA age/experience rule.

And I have no problem with the NBA changing their own rule. It is up to them, and the union.

[wadesworld]

Yes, but the story above says that the instant his named is called at the June draft he gets between $48m and $68m ($18m rookie deal plus $30m to $50m in endorsements).  If he gets hurt he gets $8 million in insurance which is immediately taxable.  So, roughly $5m after tax.

If Zion goes sky-diving, rides a motorcycle, or plays in a pickup game it is understood all these activities are too risky (recall the Kansas City Chiefs banned Mohames from playing pickup bball as it was deemed too risky).

So given all this, why isn't it irresponsible from him to return to Duke?  Many NBA players understand this which is why they are telling him to shut it down.  We had a thread on Scottie Pippen telling him this and Demarcus Cousin said it above.


ADDED LATER

If your answer is something like "maybe he loves playing for Duke.  Coach K will accept that.  But If Zion also wants to skydive, ride a motorcycle to practice or play in pickup games in the Quad, would K be as approving?

My point is he is an extraordinary talent with an unbelievable upside like no college player has had before him.  The most irresponsible thing he can do now it return to Duke. Coach K knows this and should do what is best for Zion, not himself.

Okay.

[Dr. Blackheart]

President: 35
Senator: 30
US House Rep: 25

[Jockey]

If you want a simple one. Ride sharing.

For Lyft, you must be 21.
For Uber, you must have at least 1-yr driving experience, or 3 years if you are under 23. Putting a minimum age of 19.

The difference being, of course, that a younger basketball player won’t kill anyone by being bad.

[forgetful]

The difference being, of course, that a younger basketball player won’t kill anyone by being bad.

Lyft and Uber do that, because of the risk of damaging the brand if there are any incidents related to lack of experience, particularly due to people being both young and inexperienced.

The NBA has an age restriction, because of a risk of damaging the brand due to incidents related to lack of experience, particularly due to people being both young and inexperienced.

There was largely an age vs. ability argument. One could be a NASCAR star, but be disallowed from driving for Lyft because of age.