Man do I love the Hausers

[pbiflyer]

OMG

Were they wearing hats indoors as well? Or had tattoos?

No, but anyone who actually has to keep a hand holding up their pants when they walk is a moron.  The dude had to use one hand all the time to keep his pants from falling down to his ankles. Not thuggish, just stupid.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Who had a better freshman year so far Joey or Henry Ellenson?  Bearing in mind Joey has a far superior supporting cast.

Joey has a much better outside shot, and I think that will make the difference as far as future NBA success.

Joey is in almost every way a better basketball player than Henry. I can't really think of a deficiency when comparing. Not as tall? Doesn't get as many easy rebounds?

Joey is basically the harmonic mean between Henry's measurables and Sam's acumen/court sense. Which = an incredible player!

[MU82]

Thugs come in all colors of da rainbow, hey?

I know you're not ignorant, so I'm not gonna play this game with you.

[CTWarrior]

Joey is in almost every way a better basketball player than Henry. I can't really think of a deficiency when comparing. Not as tall? Doesn't get as many easy rebounds?

Joey is basically the harmonic mean between Henry's measurables and Sam's acumen/court sense. Which = an incredible player!

Henry was a great collegiate rebounder, better than Joey there.  Also better with the ball in his hands, though not way better.  Joey's the better shooter and defender.  Arguable everywhere else.  I suspect Henry better, but too close to call for me.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Henry was a great collegiate rebounder, better than Joey there.  Also better with the ball in his hands, though not way better.  Joey's the better shooter and defender.  Arguable everywhere else.  I suspect Henry better, but too close to call for me.

Henry would look a hell of a lot better on this team—Who knows, people may have loved him as a one and done with this cast around him.   

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Henry would look a hell of a lot better on this team—Who knows, people may have loved him as a one and done with this cast around him.   

This. No disrespect to Joey but I think other than shooting, Henry has him beat everywhere else

[CTWarrior]

This. No disrespect to Joey but I think other than shooting, Henry has him beat everywhere else

Henry was really bad at guarding people.  I think Joey has him beat there, too.

[Nukem2]

This. No disrespect to Joey but I think other than shooting, Henry has him beat everywhere else

Joey is a better defender.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Henry was really bad at guarding people.  I think Joey has him beat there, too.

Joey is a better defender.

Joey is really bad at guarding anyone who isn't a stretch big man. Henry is a much more versatile defender.

[muwarrior69]

Repetition is...

[Nukem2]

Joey is really bad at guarding anyone who isn't a stretch big man. Henry is a much more versatile defender.

Henry could not guard his shadow away from the hoop.  Short memory.

[tower912]

Still can't.   Hence the lack of playing time.   

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Henry could not guard his shadow away from the hoop.  Short memory.

But he could defend the hoop very well and was just as good as Joey is on the perimeter...which is not good. Joey doesn't defend anywhere well honestly. He had one good game against a hobbled Dean Wade and everyone crowned him.

Some stats:

Points per possession allowed: HE .855, JH 1.014
Steals per game: HE 0.8 JH 0.4
Steal %: HE 1.4% JH 0.7%
Blocks per game: HE 1.5 JH 0.1
Block %: HE 4.4% JH 0.1%
Defensive Rebound %: HE 24.2% JH 18.0%
Defensive Rating: HE 98.5 JH 97.2
Defensive Win Shares: HE 2.0 JH 1.0

Other than defensive rating, Henry wins every category by a significant margin and defensive rating is a more accurate measure for team defense than it is for individual. Add in the fact that Henry put up these numbers playing for a much worse defensive team and in a Big East with much better offenses....rumors of Henry's poor defense have been exaggerated....though not as much as rumors of Joey's good defense.

[GGGG]

Yeah the anti-Henryites are out again.  Put this team around him and he'd be an All-American as a senior...though not necessarily first team.  Hopefully Joey can get to that point.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Yup, as awesome as it is that Joey is on MU and making great contributions as a Frosh to the #15 team in the nation, there is a reason that Henry was drafted in the 1st round and Joey is on no mock draft boards.

Joey is going to have a fantastic career at MU, but he isn't as talented as HE.

EDIT: That is comparing Freshman JH to Freshman HE.  Nothing to say that Joey can't continue to develop and eventually surpass Henry.

[forgetful]

But he could defend the hoop very well and was just as good as Joey is on the perimeter...which is not good. Joey doesn't defend anywhere well honestly. He had one good game against a hobbled Dean Wade and everyone crowned him.

That's just not correct. Not only did he do well against Dean Wade, but he also did a tremendous job against Govan.

I think it is impossible to directly compare Joey and HE based on stats, as the teams around them were drastically different.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

That's just not correct. Not only did he do well against Dean Wade, but he also did a tremendous job against Govan.

I think it is impossible to directly compare Joey and HE based on stats, as the teams around them were drastically different.

It's very possible to compare them. The fact that Henry played with a worse defensive makes these stats when more impressive.

Govan had a good game against us.  Shot an eFG% of 68.8%. I wouldn't call that a banner day for anyone. The only reason he didn't score more was because Akinjo refused to get him the ball.

[forgetful]

It's very possible to compare them. The fact that Henry played with a worse defensive makes these stats when more impressive.

Actually it doesn't. It's not that simple. You could be a bad defensive player in the post, but on a team with terrible perimeter defenders. By virtue of that, the opposing guards would score more often, making the post player artificially look better.

Even then, if you look at overall composite statistics that take into consideration some of these difficult to characterize variables, you'd see that Joey is by far the better offensive player (Ortg 114.7 vs. 106.3; eFg% 69% vs. 54%) and the better defender (Drtg 97.2 vs. 98.5).

I don't necessarily believe either of those conclusions though, because I don't believe you can accurately use any of these statistics to make conclusions on who was better, besides maybe simple conclusions like. Joey is by far the better perimeter player and HE is a better shot blocker.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Actually it doesn't. It's not that simple. You could be a bad defensive player in the post, but on a team with terrible perimeter defenders. By virtue of that, the opposing guards would score more often, making the post player artificially look better.

I think this is a stretch at best. Opposing guards scoring more often would artificially deflate the post defenders dRtg (which is exactly what happened to Henry), it also would have no impact (in the way you are thinking) on points per possession allowed which is the best metric for determining individual defense. Also, unless you were running a defense where the post defender never helps when opposing guards penetrate, having poor defensive guards would put the post defender in a position where they need to try and make up for the mistakes of others. It could artificially inflate his blocking stats by giving him more opportunities but he still has to make that play.

Even then, if you look at overall composite statistics that take into consideration some of these difficult to characterize variables, you'd see that Joey is by far the better offensive player (Ortg 114.7 vs. 106.3; eFg% 69% vs. 54%) and the better defender (Drtg 97.2 vs. 98.5).

Joey isn't the far better offensive player. He is the far better shooter and more efficient offensive player. Henry's usage was a lot higher and his teammates a lot worse and that impacted his efficiency. If Joey had to carry the offensive load the way that Henry did he wouldn't be putting up nearly as efficient numbers.

Joey is a much inferior defender to Henry. He is the worst defender on this team. Drtg is the only stat that Joey has an advantage in and there is a very good reason why. Drtg is a good measurement of team defense but not individual. Drtg simply looks at whether or not an opponent scored while the player was on the floor and how often that player ends the opponent's possession (with a defensive rebound, steal, or block). For example, let's say Player A is on the floor for a defensive possession. He plays perfect defense on his assignment, doesn't let him touch the ball the whole possession. Meanwhile, Player B decides to tie his shoe in the middle of the possession which allows his assignment to have an uncontested dunk. Player A and Player B (and Players C, D, and E) are equally penalized by dRtg even though it is obviously Player B's fault. So, having good defensive teammates is going to artificially improve your dRtg while having defensively poor ones is going to artificially worsen it. Drtg is great for team defense, its great for identifying good/bad defenders within a team, terrible for comparing players from different teams.

A better statistic is points per possession allowed which actually measures how well an individual player defends when given an opportunity to defend against a shot.

So we know from basic statistics that Henry was better at ending opponent's possessions than Joey because he had better defensive rebounding, block, and steal numbers. So why did he have a worse defensive rating? Because the teammates around him were worse defensively (by a lot) than the teammates that Joey has this season.

I don't necessarily believe either of those conclusions though, because I don't believe you can accurately use any of these statistics to make conclusions on who was better, besides maybe simple conclusions like. Joey is by far the better perimeter player and HE is a better shot blocker.

But you can. If you understand the statistics and the context that they give they can give you an accurate picture of who is better at different things. Joey is the much better shooter, Henry is equal to or better in just about every other category that can be measured.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

And please don't take this as a dis of Joey. I love Joey and think he is going to be an absolute stud for us. But there is reason why Henry was a first round draft pick. He was one of the most talented players that Marquette has ever had. Most comparisons against Henry are going to fall short. If you surrounded Henry with the team that we have now....damn, the things that team could do.

[Goose]

TAMU

Henry was an outstanding player, and one of the best freshmen in MU history. No comparison between Joey and HE at this point. I love Joey, but HE was a big time player from day one.

[brewcity77]

And please don't take this as a dis of Joey. I love Joey and think he is going to be an absolute stud for us. But there is reason why Henry was a first round draft pick. He was one of the most talented players that Marquette has ever had. Most comparisons against Henry are going to fall short. If you surrounded Henry with the team that we have now....damn, the things that team could do.

+1

Henry was not without flaws. Sure, he forced things too much sometimes, he wasn't a great (but was serviceable) defender, but he had a take-over-a-game ability like no one else until Markus this year. No, his efficiency wasn't stellar, but that was also a product of the surrounding cast and the reason he had to force things. He was certainly among the most naturally gifted players we've seen in a generation.

[Nukem2]

+1

Henry was not without flaws. Sure, he forced things too much sometimes, he wasn't a great (but was serviceable) defender, but he had a take-over-a-game ability like no one else until Markus this year. No, his efficiency wasn't stellar, but that was also a product of the surrounding cast and the reason he had to force things. He was certainly among the most naturally gifted players we've seen in a generation.

Henry's post defense was serviceable, but he was a turnstile in space.

[MuMark]

Hard to know if Henry's efficiency was a product of his supporting cast or not......would he have played differently with this supporting cast? Maybe maybe not......he wanted to be one and done.......he forced things a lot.....he was a very good player.

I'm just not convinced that Henry would have become more of a team guy if he was with the current group.....obviously we will never know.

[jsglow]

Purposely avoiding the HE/Joey discussion, I do think he will benefit from a summer in the weight room. But I'll bet it is a high priority item for Todd.