Interesting Story About The Struggles of UW-Stevens Point

[Not A Serious Person]

Students in Rural America Ask, ‘What Is a University Without a History Major?’
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/12/us/rural-colleges-money-students-leaving.html
Chancellor Bernie Patterson’s message to his campus was blunt: To remain solvent and relevant, his 125-year-old university needed to reinvent itself.

Some longstanding liberal arts degrees, including those in history, French and German, would be eliminated. Career-focused programs would become a key investment. Tenured faculty members could lose their jobs. The University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point, Dr. Patterson explained in a memo, could “no longer be all things to all people.”

[Cheeks]

History was one of my majors, and it didn’t stop me or others from being responsible for billions in revenue each year, or doing something outside their discipline. My son is earning a history degree now from MU (along with another major).  I truly don’t understand removing it, but some of these schools seem to want to be vocational only.  That is fine, that is their choice.

Remove some of the “studies” programs would be my suggestion because....

Those that ignore history.....

[forgetful]

History was one of my majors, and it didn’t stop me or others from being responsible for billions in revenue each year, or doing something outside their discipline. My son is earning a history degree now from MU (along with another major).  I truly don’t understand removing it, but some of these schools seem to want to be vocational only.  That is fine, that is their choice.

Remove some of the “studies” programs would be my suggestion because....

Those that ignore history.....

Pretty simple reason. A certain governor massively cut funding to higher education. Total gut job. There is no money to support entire programs that are non-revenue generating.

If you don't like these types of decisions, donate to the Universities, or vote.

[mu_hilltopper]

Au contraire!

The biggest reason these majors were cut:  The demand wasn't there.

Yes, yes, funding has been cut to the system as well, but funding is finite, student count is down, and kids were taking other majors in higher numbers. 

If, a couple years ago, ~50 kids chose history (etc) as their major, they would have cut different majors with less popularity.

[Cheeks]

Pretty simple reason. A certain governor massively cut funding to higher education. Total gut job. There is no money to support entire programs that are non-revenue generating.

If you don't like these types of decisions, donate to the Universities, or vote.

Oh please, also rampant waste that had to be cut, too. Unions out of control...it needed a claeansing and it got one.  It comes down to what gets cut.  Yes, add 100’s of millions for more “studies” programs is going to do wonders.  Now we will see how much it goes the other way.  The decision made by UWSP will be made other places, too, with different governors and some of those will share a jackass mascot....this isn’t in the long run going to be based on one side of the aisle. Demand baby. Some of these depts need to be cut, the question is which ones and there will be considerable disagreement there.  But of course an industry dominated by one side and seeing their gravy train slowed ran to their like minded pals in the media to whine.  Not surprising. 

[forgetful]

Au contraire!

The biggest reason these majors were cut:  The demand wasn't there.

Yes, yes, funding has been cut to the system as well, but funding is finite, student count is down, and kids were taking other majors in higher numbers. 

If, a couple years ago, ~50 kids chose history (etc) as their major, they would have cut different majors with less popularity.

This is a valid point. I guess this is what I meant by "non-revenue" generating. My point was that the purpose of higher education was to provide a complete and broad education, that by necessity then included areas like History and other Liberal Art subjects.

The goal wasn't revenue, it was education.

[warriorchick]

This is a valid point. I guess this is what I meant by "non-revenue" generating. My point was that the purpose of higher education was to provide a complete and broad education, that by necessity then included areas like History and other Liberal Art subjects.

The goal wasn't revenue, it was education.

Why should a public university spend money on classes that no one is signing up for?  If you want to study history, go to one of the dash schools that offer that major.

[forgetful]

Why should a public university spend money on classes that no one is signing up for?  If you want to study history, go to one of the dash schools that offer that major.

I'll note, I didn't take a stance on this. I simply informed Chico's on what he could do if he is upset about this and gave him information regarding the origin of these decisions.

[Mutaman]

History was one of my majors, and it didn’t stop me or others from being responsible for billions in revenue each year,

http://www.robertsinclair.net/comic/pretty boy.html

[mu_hilltopper]

My point was that the purpose of higher education was to provide a complete and broad education, that by necessity then included areas like History and other Liberal Art subjects.

We don't disagree.  .. To note, they didn't cut all history classes, which are indeed important in a broad education.  They cut the major and likely some esoteric history classes that majors would take.

And warriorchick is also right.  If you want a history major, there are UW schools that still offer it; go there.

[Not A Serious Person]

Why should a public university spend money on classes that no one is signing up for?  If you want to study history, go to one of the dash schools that offer that major.

The article mentions that there are FIVE UW system schools with 115 miles of Stevens Point.  Do they need all FIVE teaching history?

[D'Lo Brown]

Au contraire!

The biggest reason these majors were cut:  The demand wasn't there.

Yes, yes, funding has been cut to the system as well, but funding is finite, student count is down, and kids were taking other majors in higher numbers. 

If, a couple years ago, ~50 kids chose history (etc) as their major, they would have cut different majors with less popularity.

I agree with you, and not only do I agree but I also think this is basically the only reason it was nixed. History has got to be among the cheapest programs for a university to run. They would have a strong interest in maintaining it, with even marginal enrollment in the major.

Yes, having to get rid of the major due to low usage is technically financially-related but that is downstream from the actual cause. Not enough interest.

I also disagree with the sentiment elsewhere that history majors protect the world from calamity. I think the state of Wisconsin will survive ok with less understanding of the Romans, colonial times, etc.

[theBabyDavid]

I was an ASMU senator (kinda like Sen John Blutarsky) and had to attend some student government convocation which hosted schools from around the Upper Midwest.

Nestor "The Molestor" Figueroa and I were at the mixer consuming more PBRs than mixing when we fell into a conversation with some guys from UW - Stout. ISYN, these guys were majoring in Welding, Plumbing, and Steam Fitting. At the time I thought it was not only bizarre but humorous.

Now, I think those guys likely became entrepreneurs who set up trade-based businesses which not only had commercial viability but likely made them some coin over the years.

I question the value of liberal arts degrees from lower tier colleges. Not only are these kids eminently unemployable but they are saddled with horrific debt for the privilege of spending 4 years in Stevens Point or River Falls.

You can get away with being an English major if you matriculate from Smith or Williams College. A history major from UW - X has got a much tougher hill to climb to cash in that chip.

[Not A Serious Person]

I was an ASMU senator (kinda like Sen John Blutarsky) and had to attend some student government convocation which hosted schools from around the Upper Midwest.

Nestor "The Molestor" Figueroa and I were at the mixer consuming more PBRs than mixing when we fell into a conversation with some guys from UW - Stout. ISYN, these guys were majoring in Welding, Plumbing, and Steam Fitting. At the time I thought it was not only bizarre but humorous.

Now, I think those guys likely became entrepreneurs who set up trade-based businesses which not only had commercial viability but likely made them some coin over the years.

I question the value of liberal arts degrees from lower tier colleges. Not only are these kids eminently unemployable but they are saddled with horrific debt for the privilege of spending 4 years in Stevens Point or River Falls.

You can get away with being an English major if you matriculate from Smith or Williams College. A history major from UW - X has got a much tougher hill to climb to cash in that chip.

From the article ...

Universities like Stevens Point are experiencing the opposite of what is happening at some of the nation’s most selective schools, like Harvard, Northwestern and the University of California, Berkeley, where floods of applications have led to overwhelming numbers of rejected students.

But critics say that in trying to carve out a sustainable path for Stevens Point — and build a model for other struggling, regionally focused universities — administrators are risking the very essence of a four-year college experience.

“Part of the fear is, is this an attempt to really kind of radically change the identity of this institution?” asked Jennifer Collins, a political-science professor, who wondered aloud whether Stevens Point would become a “pre-professional, more polytechnic type of university.”

Kim Mueller, 21, a senior who hopes to become a history teacher at a Wisconsin high school, said her first reaction to the proposal was: “What is a university without a history major?”

---------------------

Do we thousands of people graduating with history degrees?  Yes!  It is critically important.  But this can be satisfied by a top 100 university.

So if you live in Wisconsin and want to study history and not travel far from home, your choices are:

Madison, MU, Northwestern DePaul, Chicago, Illinois, Minnesota, Carleton, and Notre Dame.

If you cannot get into one of these schools, maybe you should not be considering history.

[theBabyDavid]

From the article ...

Universities like Stevens Point are experiencing the opposite of what is happening at some of the nation’s most selective schools, like Harvard, Northwestern and the University of California, Berkeley, where floods of applications have led to overwhelming numbers of rejected students.

But critics say that in trying to carve out a sustainable path for Stevens Point — and build a model for other struggling, regionally focused universities — administrators are risking the very essence of a four-year college experience.

“Part of the fear is, is this an attempt to really kind of radically change the identity of this institution?” asked Jennifer Collins, a political-science professor, who wondered aloud whether Stevens Point would become a “pre-professional, more polytechnic type of university.”

Kim Mueller, 21, a senior who hopes to become a history teacher at a Wisconsin high school, said her first reaction to the proposal was: “What is a university without a history major?”

---------------------

Do we thousands of people graduating with history degrees?  Yes!  It is critically important.  But this can be satisfied by a top 100 university.

So if you live in Wisconsin and want to study history and not travel far from home, your choices are:

Madison, MU, Northwestern DePaul, Chicago, Illinois, Minnesota, Carleton, and Notre Dame.

If you cannot get into one of these schools, maybe you should not be considering history.

If memory serves, none other than one Richard Raymond Majerus was a history major at MU.

I have to believe that his mastery of linens and their absorbent properties was honed while sitting in the Varsity Theatre for Fr Donnelly's Western Civ survey course.

[GGGG]

Thoughts:

1. Dropping a history major really isn't that big of a deal.  UW-Stout doesn't have one either. That doesn't preclude students who attend those schools from taking history as part of their curricular requirements.

2.  SP's biggest problem, and its alluded to in the article, is it's location. Stevens Point and Wausau are doing well, but everything around them are depopulating.  And they are not located close enough to southeast Wisconsin, or the Twin Cities areas, which are portions of the state that are still growing.  Schools located in the southern part of the state in particular have been making a mint off of IL students paying out of state tuition.  That's just not practical here.

3.  SP also doesn't have academic programs, like engineering or nursing, that are going to be magnets for students from across the state looking for job opportunities.  UW-Platteville keeps plugging along because of its engineering program.  UW-La Crosse has strong allied heath programs, like physical therapy.  SP is known for environmental science....  Good luck.

4.  Heisey is right. Five schools within 115 miles don't need to be offering the same thing.  Fundamentally you would never build the UW System from scratch like it is built now. UW-Madison, UW-Milwaukee and about four other schools of around 20-25,000 students each would work just fine.  But you can't easily and cheaply do this now.  The state is stuck with what it has and needs to work within that.

5.  SP historically has not been blessed with great leadership. 

https://www.twincities.com/2009/04/19/uw-stevens-point-chancellor-criticized-for-spending-leadership-linda-bunnell-replies-saying-attacks-are-unfair/

6.  The cuts in funding haven't caused all of the above.  They have exposed all of the above.

[Chili]

Here's the thing about not having history majors to teach history to future generations...'Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.'.....we're already seeing this trap globally with the rise of populist nationalism and the rampant acceptance of racism & bigotry at the highest levels....

a broad thinking population is the best way to a strong a democracy...free thinking is the greatest thing man has....

[Not A Serious Person]

Here's the thing about not having history majors to teach history to future generations...'Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.'.....we're already seeing this trap globally with the rise of populist nationalism and the rampant acceptance of racism & bigotry at the highest levels....

a broad thinking population is the best way to a strong a democracy...free thinking is the greatest thing man has....

Question ...

To teach HS (or middle school) history, do you need a history degree or an education degree?

What I'm asking is does cutting history mean we are cutting potential history teachers? Or are future HS history teachers getting education degrees?

[D'Lo Brown]

Here's the thing about not having history majors to teach history to future generations...'Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.'.....we're already seeing this trap globally with the rise of populist nationalism and the rampant acceptance of racism & bigotry at the highest levels....

a broad thinking population is the best way to a strong a democracy...free thinking is the greatest thing man has....

Compassion, intellectual curiosity, and the desire for lifelong learning are not unique to those who study history.

[warriorchick]

Question ...

To teach HS (or middle school) history, do you need a history degree or an education degree?

What I'm asking is does cutting history mean we are cutting potential history teachers? Or are future HS history teachers getting education degrees?

I don't know hiw it is at other schools, but at Marquette, all education majors also have a major from a different college within the university.  If you want to be a history teacher, for example, you would double-major in History and Education.

[GGGG]

Here's the thing about not having history majors to teach history to future generations...'Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.'.....we're already seeing this trap globally with the rise of populist nationalism and the rampant acceptance of racism & bigotry at the highest levels....

a broad thinking population is the best way to a strong a democracy...free thinking is the greatest thing man has....

Of the 13 four year campuses in the UW System, you can get a history major at 12 of them.  11 after SP drops the program.

[Cheeks]

Sounds like SW should have done more cutting and shut some campuses altogether.

[GGGG]

Sounds like SW should have done more cutting and shut some campuses altogether.

Unlike you, I'm not going to get political here.  But here is why that's unpractical.

First, what are you going to do with the students who attend those other campuses?  And the future students as well?  The UW System doesn't have enough available capacity if you close a school the size of SP.  UW-Superior?  Sure, but you aren't saving that much money there.  And those students are more likely to run over to Duluth to go to school then to go to SP.  If you have to build more infrastructure elsewhere, you aren't saving anything.

Second, a bunch of those buildings on campuses are supported through bonding.  Including those supported by student fees and operating income.  How do you suppose paying those bonds back?

Third, the political costs are WAY too high.  You want to shutter one of Stevens Points largest employers with a presence right smack dab in the middle of town?  Good luck.  College campuses really aren't useful for much else.


The better idea is to do what they are doing now.  Make the campuses be resourceful.  Shut down programs that aren't popular.  Manage capacity across the system better.  Transition the infrastructure over time to a campus of 8,000 students - not 11,000 students.   They are already starting to deal with the two-year campus problem.  This is a problem that needs a long term plan to fix.  Not something that is just going to grab headlines.

[Chili]

Of the 13 four year campuses in the UW System, you can get a history major at 12 of them.  11 after SP drops the program.

And.........your point is what?

I think history is like english - everyone needs it. Without it, you get dumbasses.

[Chili]

Unlike you, I'm not going to get political here.  But here is why that's unpractical.

First, what are you going to do with the students who attend those other campuses?  And the future students as well?  The UW System doesn't have enough available capacity if you close a school the size of SP.  UW-Superior?  Sure, but you aren't saving that much money there.  And those students are more likely to run over to Duluth to go to school then to go to SP.  If you have to build more infrastructure elsewhere, you aren't saving anything.

Second, a bunch of those buildings on campuses are supported through bonding.  Including those supported by student fees and operating income.  How do you suppose paying those bonds back?

Third, the political costs are WAY too high.  You want to shutter one of Stevens Points largest employers with a presence right smack dab in the middle of town?  Good luck.  College campuses really aren't useful for much else.


The better idea is to do what they are doing now.  Make the campuses be resourceful.  Shut down programs that aren't popular.  Manage capacity across the system better.  Transition the infrastructure over time to a campus of 8,000 students - not 11,000 students.   They are already starting to deal with the two-year campus problem.  This is a problem that needs a long term plan to fix.  Not something that is just going to grab headlines.

Also, UW-P is home to the state Forestry school....which we have learned is important to all states....the UW-XXX schools are the backbone of the state and should have more investment than ever....it's how you train the next wave of state workers....without it you just get a lot baristas....