MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: Not A Serious Person on January 13, 2019, 12:22:23 PM
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Students in Rural America Ask, ‘What Is a University Without a History Major?’
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/12/us/rural-colleges-money-students-leaving.html
Chancellor Bernie Patterson’s message to his campus was blunt: To remain solvent and relevant, his 125-year-old university needed to reinvent itself.
Some longstanding liberal arts degrees, including those in history, French and German, would be eliminated. Career-focused programs would become a key investment. Tenured faculty members could lose their jobs. The University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point, Dr. Patterson explained in a memo, could “no longer be all things to all people.”
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History was one of my majors, and it didn’t stop me or others from being responsible for billions in revenue each year, or doing something outside their discipline. My son is earning a history degree now from MU (along with another major). I truly don’t understand removing it, but some of these schools seem to want to be vocational only. That is fine, that is their choice.
Remove some of the “studies” programs would be my suggestion because....
Those that ignore history.....
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History was one of my majors, and it didn’t stop me or others from being responsible for billions in revenue each year, or doing something outside their discipline. My son is earning a history degree now from MU (along with another major). I truly don’t understand removing it, but some of these schools seem to want to be vocational only. That is fine, that is their choice.
Remove some of the “studies” programs would be my suggestion because....
Those that ignore history.....
Pretty simple reason. A certain governor massively cut funding to higher education. Total gut job. There is no money to support entire programs that are non-revenue generating.
If you don't like these types of decisions, donate to the Universities, or vote.
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Au contraire!
The biggest reason these majors were cut: The demand wasn't there.
Yes, yes, funding has been cut to the system as well, but funding is finite, student count is down, and kids were taking other majors in higher numbers.
If, a couple years ago, ~50 kids chose history (etc) as their major, they would have cut different majors with less popularity.
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Pretty simple reason. A certain governor massively cut funding to higher education. Total gut job. There is no money to support entire programs that are non-revenue generating.
If you don't like these types of decisions, donate to the Universities, or vote.
Oh please, also rampant waste that had to be cut, too. Unions out of control...it needed a claeansing and it got one. It comes down to what gets cut. Yes, add 100’s of millions for more “studies” programs is going to do wonders. Now we will see how much it goes the other way. The decision made by UWSP will be made other places, too, with different governors and some of those will share a jackass mascot....this isn’t in the long run going to be based on one side of the aisle. Demand baby. Some of these depts need to be cut, the question is which ones and there will be considerable disagreement there. But of course an industry dominated by one side and seeing their gravy train slowed ran to their like minded pals in the media to whine. Not surprising.
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Au contraire!
The biggest reason these majors were cut: The demand wasn't there.
Yes, yes, funding has been cut to the system as well, but funding is finite, student count is down, and kids were taking other majors in higher numbers.
If, a couple years ago, ~50 kids chose history (etc) as their major, they would have cut different majors with less popularity.
This is a valid point. I guess this is what I meant by "non-revenue" generating. My point was that the purpose of higher education was to provide a complete and broad education, that by necessity then included areas like History and other Liberal Art subjects.
The goal wasn't revenue, it was education.
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This is a valid point. I guess this is what I meant by "non-revenue" generating. My point was that the purpose of higher education was to provide a complete and broad education, that by necessity then included areas like History and other Liberal Art subjects.
The goal wasn't revenue, it was education.
Why should a public university spend money on classes that no one is signing up for? If you want to study history, go to one of the dash schools that offer that major.
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Why should a public university spend money on classes that no one is signing up for? If you want to study history, go to one of the dash schools that offer that major.
I'll note, I didn't take a stance on this. I simply informed Chico's on what he could do if he is upset about this and gave him information regarding the origin of these decisions.
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History was one of my majors, and it didn’t stop me or others from being responsible for billions in revenue each year,
http://www.robertsinclair.net/comic/pretty boy.html
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My point was that the purpose of higher education was to provide a complete and broad education, that by necessity then included areas like History and other Liberal Art subjects.
We don't disagree. .. To note, they didn't cut all history classes, which are indeed important in a broad education. They cut the major and likely some esoteric history classes that majors would take.
And warriorchick is also right. If you want a history major, there are UW schools that still offer it; go there.
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Why should a public university spend money on classes that no one is signing up for? If you want to study history, go to one of the dash schools that offer that major.
The article mentions that there are FIVE UW system schools with 115 miles of Stevens Point. Do they need all FIVE teaching history?
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Au contraire!
The biggest reason these majors were cut: The demand wasn't there.
Yes, yes, funding has been cut to the system as well, but funding is finite, student count is down, and kids were taking other majors in higher numbers.
If, a couple years ago, ~50 kids chose history (etc) as their major, they would have cut different majors with less popularity.
I agree with you, and not only do I agree but I also think this is basically the only reason it was nixed. History has got to be among the cheapest programs for a university to run. They would have a strong interest in maintaining it, with even marginal enrollment in the major.
Yes, having to get rid of the major due to low usage is technically financially-related but that is downstream from the actual cause. Not enough interest.
I also disagree with the sentiment elsewhere that history majors protect the world from calamity. I think the state of Wisconsin will survive ok with less understanding of the Romans, colonial times, etc.
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I was an ASMU senator (kinda like Sen John Blutarsky) and had to attend some student government convocation which hosted schools from around the Upper Midwest.
Nestor "The Molestor" Figueroa and I were at the mixer consuming more PBRs than mixing when we fell into a conversation with some guys from UW - Stout. ISYN, these guys were majoring in Welding, Plumbing, and Steam Fitting. At the time I thought it was not only bizarre but humorous.
Now, I think those guys likely became entrepreneurs who set up trade-based businesses which not only had commercial viability but likely made them some coin over the years.
I question the value of liberal arts degrees from lower tier colleges. Not only are these kids eminently unemployable but they are saddled with horrific debt for the privilege of spending 4 years in Stevens Point or River Falls.
You can get away with being an English major if you matriculate from Smith or Williams College. A history major from UW - X has got a much tougher hill to climb to cash in that chip.
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I was an ASMU senator (kinda like Sen John Blutarsky) and had to attend some student government convocation which hosted schools from around the Upper Midwest.
Nestor "The Molestor" Figueroa and I were at the mixer consuming more PBRs than mixing when we fell into a conversation with some guys from UW - Stout. ISYN, these guys were majoring in Welding, Plumbing, and Steam Fitting. At the time I thought it was not only bizarre but humorous.
Now, I think those guys likely became entrepreneurs who set up trade-based businesses which not only had commercial viability but likely made them some coin over the years.
I question the value of liberal arts degrees from lower tier colleges. Not only are these kids eminently unemployable but they are saddled with horrific debt for the privilege of spending 4 years in Stevens Point or River Falls.
You can get away with being an English major if you matriculate from Smith or Williams College. A history major from UW - X has got a much tougher hill to climb to cash in that chip.
From the article ...
Universities like Stevens Point are experiencing the opposite of what is happening at some of the nation’s most selective schools, like Harvard, Northwestern and the University of California, Berkeley, where floods of applications have led to overwhelming numbers of rejected students.
But critics say that in trying to carve out a sustainable path for Stevens Point — and build a model for other struggling, regionally focused universities — administrators are risking the very essence of a four-year college experience.
“Part of the fear is, is this an attempt to really kind of radically change the identity of this institution?” asked Jennifer Collins, a political-science professor, who wondered aloud whether Stevens Point would become a “pre-professional, more polytechnic type of university.”
Kim Mueller, 21, a senior who hopes to become a history teacher at a Wisconsin high school, said her first reaction to the proposal was: “What is a university without a history major?”
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Do we thousands of people graduating with history degrees? Yes! It is critically important. But this can be satisfied by a top 100 university.
So if you live in Wisconsin and want to study history and not travel far from home, your choices are:
Madison, MU, Northwestern DePaul, Chicago, Illinois, Minnesota, Carleton, and Notre Dame.
If you cannot get into one of these schools, maybe you should not be considering history.
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From the article ...
Universities like Stevens Point are experiencing the opposite of what is happening at some of the nation’s most selective schools, like Harvard, Northwestern and the University of California, Berkeley, where floods of applications have led to overwhelming numbers of rejected students.
But critics say that in trying to carve out a sustainable path for Stevens Point — and build a model for other struggling, regionally focused universities — administrators are risking the very essence of a four-year college experience.
“Part of the fear is, is this an attempt to really kind of radically change the identity of this institution?” asked Jennifer Collins, a political-science professor, who wondered aloud whether Stevens Point would become a “pre-professional, more polytechnic type of university.”
Kim Mueller, 21, a senior who hopes to become a history teacher at a Wisconsin high school, said her first reaction to the proposal was: “What is a university without a history major?”
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Do we thousands of people graduating with history degrees? Yes! It is critically important. But this can be satisfied by a top 100 university.
So if you live in Wisconsin and want to study history and not travel far from home, your choices are:
Madison, MU, Northwestern DePaul, Chicago, Illinois, Minnesota, Carleton, and Notre Dame.
If you cannot get into one of these schools, maybe you should not be considering history.
If memory serves, none other than one Richard Raymond Majerus was a history major at MU.
I have to believe that his mastery of linens and their absorbent properties was honed while sitting in the Varsity Theatre for Fr Donnelly's Western Civ survey course.
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Thoughts:
1. Dropping a history major really isn't that big of a deal. UW-Stout doesn't have one either. That doesn't preclude students who attend those schools from taking history as part of their curricular requirements.
2. SP's biggest problem, and its alluded to in the article, is it's location. Stevens Point and Wausau are doing well, but everything around them are depopulating. And they are not located close enough to southeast Wisconsin, or the Twin Cities areas, which are portions of the state that are still growing. Schools located in the southern part of the state in particular have been making a mint off of IL students paying out of state tuition. That's just not practical here.
3. SP also doesn't have academic programs, like engineering or nursing, that are going to be magnets for students from across the state looking for job opportunities. UW-Platteville keeps plugging along because of its engineering program. UW-La Crosse has strong allied heath programs, like physical therapy. SP is known for environmental science.... Good luck.
4. Heisey is right. Five schools within 115 miles don't need to be offering the same thing. Fundamentally you would never build the UW System from scratch like it is built now. UW-Madison, UW-Milwaukee and about four other schools of around 20-25,000 students each would work just fine. But you can't easily and cheaply do this now. The state is stuck with what it has and needs to work within that.
5. SP historically has not been blessed with great leadership.
https://www.twincities.com/2009/04/19/uw-stevens-point-chancellor-criticized-for-spending-leadership-linda-bunnell-replies-saying-attacks-are-unfair/
6. The cuts in funding haven't caused all of the above. They have exposed all of the above.
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Here's the thing about not having history majors to teach history to future generations...'Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.'.....we're already seeing this trap globally with the rise of populist nationalism and the rampant acceptance of racism & bigotry at the highest levels....
a broad thinking population is the best way to a strong a democracy...free thinking is the greatest thing man has....
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Here's the thing about not having history majors to teach history to future generations...'Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.'.....we're already seeing this trap globally with the rise of populist nationalism and the rampant acceptance of racism & bigotry at the highest levels....
a broad thinking population is the best way to a strong a democracy...free thinking is the greatest thing man has....
Question ...
To teach HS (or middle school) history, do you need a history degree or an education degree?
What I'm asking is does cutting history mean we are cutting potential history teachers? Or are future HS history teachers getting education degrees?
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Here's the thing about not having history majors to teach history to future generations...'Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.'.....we're already seeing this trap globally with the rise of populist nationalism and the rampant acceptance of racism & bigotry at the highest levels....
a broad thinking population is the best way to a strong a democracy...free thinking is the greatest thing man has....
Compassion, intellectual curiosity, and the desire for lifelong learning are not unique to those who study history.
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Question ...
To teach HS (or middle school) history, do you need a history degree or an education degree?
What I'm asking is does cutting history mean we are cutting potential history teachers? Or are future HS history teachers getting education degrees?
I don't know hiw it is at other schools, but at Marquette, all education majors also have a major from a different college within the university. If you want to be a history teacher, for example, you would double-major in History and Education.
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Here's the thing about not having history majors to teach history to future generations...'Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.'.....we're already seeing this trap globally with the rise of populist nationalism and the rampant acceptance of racism & bigotry at the highest levels....
a broad thinking population is the best way to a strong a democracy...free thinking is the greatest thing man has....
Of the 13 four year campuses in the UW System, you can get a history major at 12 of them. 11 after SP drops the program.
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Sounds like SW should have done more cutting and shut some campuses altogether.
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Sounds like SW should have done more cutting and shut some campuses altogether.
Unlike you, I'm not going to get political here. But here is why that's unpractical.
First, what are you going to do with the students who attend those other campuses? And the future students as well? The UW System doesn't have enough available capacity if you close a school the size of SP. UW-Superior? Sure, but you aren't saving that much money there. And those students are more likely to run over to Duluth to go to school then to go to SP. If you have to build more infrastructure elsewhere, you aren't saving anything.
Second, a bunch of those buildings on campuses are supported through bonding. Including those supported by student fees and operating income. How do you suppose paying those bonds back?
Third, the political costs are WAY too high. You want to shutter one of Stevens Points largest employers with a presence right smack dab in the middle of town? Good luck. College campuses really aren't useful for much else.
The better idea is to do what they are doing now. Make the campuses be resourceful. Shut down programs that aren't popular. Manage capacity across the system better. Transition the infrastructure over time to a campus of 8,000 students - not 11,000 students. They are already starting to deal with the two-year campus problem. This is a problem that needs a long term plan to fix. Not something that is just going to grab headlines.
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Of the 13 four year campuses in the UW System, you can get a history major at 12 of them. 11 after SP drops the program.
And.........your point is what?
I think history is like english - everyone needs it. Without it, you get dumbasses.
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Unlike you, I'm not going to get political here. But here is why that's unpractical.
First, what are you going to do with the students who attend those other campuses? And the future students as well? The UW System doesn't have enough available capacity if you close a school the size of SP. UW-Superior? Sure, but you aren't saving that much money there. And those students are more likely to run over to Duluth to go to school then to go to SP. If you have to build more infrastructure elsewhere, you aren't saving anything.
Second, a bunch of those buildings on campuses are supported through bonding. Including those supported by student fees and operating income. How do you suppose paying those bonds back?
Third, the political costs are WAY too high. You want to shutter one of Stevens Points largest employers with a presence right smack dab in the middle of town? Good luck. College campuses really aren't useful for much else.
The better idea is to do what they are doing now. Make the campuses be resourceful. Shut down programs that aren't popular. Manage capacity across the system better. Transition the infrastructure over time to a campus of 8,000 students - not 11,000 students. They are already starting to deal with the two-year campus problem. This is a problem that needs a long term plan to fix. Not something that is just going to grab headlines.
Also, UW-P is home to the state Forestry school....which we have learned is important to all states....the UW-XXX schools are the backbone of the state and should have more investment than ever....it's how you train the next wave of state workers....without it you just get a lot baristas....
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And.........your point is what?
I think history is like english - everyone needs it. Without it, you get dumbasses.
Everyone does get it. Just because it isn't offered as a major doesn't mean the subject disappears entirely from the curriculum.
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Also, UW-P is home to the state Forestry school....which we have learned is important to all states....the UW-XXX schools are the backbone of the state and should have more investment than ever....it's how you train the next wave of state workers....without it you just get a lot baristas....
Buzzworditis.
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The problem is not unique to Wisconsin. Illinois is having many of the same problems at Northern Western, Eastern and Southern. At SIU-Carbondale, it is particularly bad and the unievrsity was undergoing a massive restructuring at the time its Chancellor died.
The fundamental issue affecting all state-run regional universities is politics. In Illinois, for example, we have three state-supported universities within 70 miles of Champaign (UofI, Illinois State and Eastern Illinois). That's an awful lot of university for a sparsely populated corner of the state. In Chicago, Chicago State is kept open for no logical reason other than someone doesn't want to ride the L to UIC or the City Colleges of Chicago. Or, get in a car and drive to Governors State in the South Suburbs.
Someone mentioned UW-Superior. That university is in my late grandparents neighborhood. Frankly, it makes no sense. For years, Wisconsin and Minnesota had an Interstate Compact that allowed each others' residents to attend state universities at in-state costs. Why on earth couldn't you just close UWS and send everyone eight miles away to the University of Minnesota Duluth? Yes, you have to cross the Blatnik Bridge and go up the hill in, Godforbid, Minnesota, but I gotta believe the depth of education and the experience would be better at UMD.
Ultimately, Wisconsin and Illinois particularly have taken a very noble and important route in education. For our states to be competitive in the world economy, we need well-educated residents who understand science and the arts. Who can think on their feet. We just have to make sure that we don't overdo it. I think that's the point of Stevens Point.
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Here's the thing about not having history majors to teach history to future generations...'Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.'.....we're already seeing this trap globally with the rise of populist nationalism and the rampant acceptance of racism & bigotry at the highest levels....
a broad thinking population is the best way to a strong a democracy...free thinking is the greatest thing man has....
I don't disagree with this, but you could octuple+++ the number of history majors and it wouldn't change the sociological/political landscape in the US one degree.
Switching the concept from history majors to folks who go to college, get some base knowledge of history, english, polysci, econ .. It's 30% nationally and college rates are trending upwards .. for people under 34 years old, it's now up to 47% have at least a 2-year degree, so it's ticking up over the decades.
But .. it leaves huge, huge chunks of America with just a high school diploma, and likely barely that.
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For the record, I told my son not to major in history, even though he is also earning another major. I, too, have trouble seeing how it parlays into much these days. Told him to get a minor in it instead. To each their own.
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The problem is not unique to Wisconsin. Illinois is having many of the same problems at Northern Western, Eastern and Southern. At SIU-Carbondale, it is particularly bad and the unievrsity was undergoing a massive restructuring at the time its Chancellor died.
The fundamental issue affecting all state-run regional universities is politics. In Illinois, for example, we have three state-supported universities within 70 miles of Champaign (UofI, Illinois State and Eastern Illinois). That's an awful lot of university for a sparsely populated corner of the state. In Chicago, Chicago State is kept open for no logical reason other than someone doesn't want to ride the L to UIC or the City Colleges of Chicago. Or, get in a car and drive to Governors State in the South Suburbs.
Someone mentioned UW-Superior. That university is in my late grandparents neighborhood. Frankly, it makes no sense. For years, Wisconsin and Minnesota had an Interstate Compact that allowed each others' residents to attend state universities at in-state costs. Why on earth couldn't you just close UWS and send everyone eight miles away to the University of Minnesota Duluth? Yes, you have to cross the Blatnik Bridge and go up the hill in, Godforbid, Minnesota, but I gotta believe the depth of education and the experience would be better at UMD.
Ultimately, Wisconsin and Illinois particularly have taken a very noble and important route in education. For our states to be competitive in the world economy, we need well-educated residents who understand science and the arts. Who can think on their feet. We just have to make sure that we don't overdo it. I think that's the point of Stevens Point.
Yup, and in this case it is also $$$$. Can't cut that $$$$ and those jobs that go along with it, nopey dopey. Having all those schools so close, highly inefficient, but they aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Keep the funding coming because Mr. and Mrs. Pol doesn't want to make the tough decisions.
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For the record, I told my son not to major in history, even though he is also earning another major. I, too, have trouble seeing how it parlays into much these days. Told him to get a minor in it instead. To each their own.
Well I can tell you personally, that I've talked with multiple Fortune 500 CEOs and a couple big hedge fund managers, that say they would rather hire a History major who finished at the top of his class than a business major.
The reason, from them, the History major knows how to think critically, and independently, and knows how to research documents to make correlations and inferences about distantly related topics.
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Well I can tell you personally, that I've talked with multiple Fortune 500 CEOs and a couple big hedge fund managers, that say they would rather hire a History major who finished at the top of his class than a business major.
The reason, from them, the History major knows how to think critically, and independently, and knows how to research documents to make correlations and inferences about distantly related topics.
Correct - If they have a history major from an Ivy or Chicago, Northwestern etc.
If they hire a UW-SP major, it is because they have a useful skill, like STEM or coding.
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SP historically has not been blessed with great leadership.
(http://www.afarleycountryattire.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/magee-moleskin-waistcoat-red-29814.jpg)
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Correct - If they have a history major from an Ivy or Chicago, Northwestern etc.
Exactly. When I was trying to get into financial markets in 2008-2009, I had multiple hiring managers tell me they had a list of 4-5 majors and any other resumes got summarily tossed unless they came from a specific reference. I can assure you history was not one of them, nor was English.
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Exactly. When I was trying to get into financial markets in 2008-2009, I had multiple hiring managers tell me they had a list of 4-5 majors and any other resumes got summarily tossed unless they came from a specific reference. I can assure you history was not one of them, nor was English.
Well, I have a student, who just last year went to work in financial markets, with a triple major in History, Music, and English (Poetry). And it wasn't from an ivy, and he has no connections to the company.
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Well, I have a student, who just last year went to work in financial markets, with a triple major in History, Music, and English (Poetry). And it wasn't from an ivy, and he has no connections to the company.
I think the moral of the story here is that investment bankers drink a lot of coffee and don't have time to make it themselves.
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I think the moral of the story here is that investment bankers drink a lot of coffee and don't have time to make it themselves.
Touche. I should have been more specific. It was a high paying job as an analyst.
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Well, I have a student, who just last year went to work in financial markets, with a triple major in History, Music, and English (Poetry). And it wasn't from an ivy, and he has no connections to the company.
Willing to bet that is more to do with the quality of the student themself than the education. I'm willing to lay out a suitably large amount of money in a wager that a triple major in History, Music, and English from just anyone will not lead in a significant number of those students getting a high paying analyst gig. A triple major on a resume sticks out, regardless of what the majors are, that's enough to get a hiring managers attention especially if the GPA is high and there are extracurriculars.
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Willing to bet that is more to do with the quality of the student themself than the education. I'm willing to lay out a suitably large amount of money in a wager that a triple major in History, Music, and English from just anyone will not lead in a significant number of those students getting a high paying analyst gig. A triple major on a resume sticks out, regardless of what the majors are, that's enough to get a hiring managers attention especially if the GPA is high and there are extracurriculars.
Totally agree. This student is incredibly special. Any job he gets an interview at is going to be his for his entire life, and his resume will get him an interview.
That is part of my point. If you're smart, and talented, pick majors where you will excel and stand out.
If your ordinary, lazy, and just want a job, pick a major in high demand.
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Totally agree. This student is incredibly special. Any job he gets an interview at is going to be his for his entire life, and his resume will get him an interview.
That is part of my point. If you're smart, and talented, pick majors where you will excel and stand out.
If your ordinary, lazy, and just want a job, pick a major in high demand.
There will always be exceptions, but the point is, even exceptional, with any of those majors on their own, they likely wouldn’t have even given him an interview. The triple major is similar to any major from an Ivy, it signfies a unique candidate with a proven work ethic or level of intelligence.
I went to a top 20 undergrad business school with a great reputation in Chicago (but not Ivy), great GPA, deans list, but I was a Psych major with a finance minor. The manager told me the only reason I was in for an interview was a colleague called him on my behalf. My resume had already been pushed off his desk. It’s a bit absurd, but that’s the nature of the market in many ways these days.
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There will always be exceptions, but the point is, even exceptional, with any of those majors on their own, they likely wouldn’t have even given him an interview. The triple major is similar to any major from an Ivy, it signfies a unique candidate with a proven work ethic or level of intelligence.
I went to a top 20 undergrad business school with a great reputation in Chicago (but not Ivy), great GPA, deans list, but I was a Psych major with a finance minor. The manager told me the only reason I was in for an interview was a colleague called him on my behalf. My resume had already been pushed off his desk. It’s a bit absurd, but that’s the nature of the market in many ways these days.
Well to be fair, single majors at highly competitive schools are almost non-existent. If you are not double (the majority of students I see) or triple (increasing in number) majoring then you are at a significant competitive disadvantage.
And most top firms want to hire someone with one math or programing intensive major, and one humanities.
The combination of the two proves both technical skill, and ability to apply logic/reasoning to disparate fields.
One of the most common double majors I see is Finance (or Economics) paired with Sociology or Psych.
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There will always be exceptions, but the point is, even exceptional, with any of those majors on their own, they likely wouldn’t have even given him an interview. The triple major is similar to any major from an Ivy, it signfies a unique candidate with a proven work ethic or level of intelligence.
I went to a top 20 undergrad business school with a great reputation in Chicago (but not Ivy), great GPA, deans list, but I was a Psych major with a finance minor. The manager told me the only reason I was in for an interview was a colleague called him on my behalf. My resume had already been pushed off his desk. It’s a bit absurd, but that’s the nature of the market in many ways these days.
Bear in mind, these days the first "person" to see a resume at the larger companies is an algorithm.
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Bear in mind, these days the first "person" to see a resume at the larger companies is an algorithm.
Hence the rise of the cottage industry of resume and job application services.
Aside: I've never been listed as a contact on any job listing my company has posted, and yet, on a regular basis I receive a resume or two via e-blast from one such service, which on occasion has been the same person as a previous blast - same address, same job history, same education - only details (and keywords) under their job history are completely reworked every time.
Unfortunately, the blasts come from a unique domain/email every time - most often "candidate's name dot com" - so I can't flag them as spam, and there's never anything in the blasts that would identify the originating service/firm (only the site of their anonymous mailhost/server).
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There will always be exceptions, but the point is, even exceptional, with any of those majors on their own, they likely wouldn’t have even given him an interview. The triple major is similar to any major from an Ivy, it signfies a unique candidate with a proven work ethic or level of intelligence.
I went to a top 20 undergrad business school with a great reputation in Chicago (but not Ivy), great GPA, deans list, but I was a Psych major with a finance minor. The manager told me the only reason I was in for an interview was a colleague called him on my behalf. My resume had already been pushed off his desk. It’s a bit absurd, but that’s the nature of the market in many ways these days.
Wags,
Your point is 100% correct: getting a position in I Banking is all about the interview. You have to nail it regardless of pedigree. The key is to be able to get the interview.
The absolute easiest path for getting into I Banking is to be a THG from MIT, Princeton, Harvard, Chicago, Michigan, or Cal. Every firm and fund in the world will beg you to join, despite your mouth breathing tendencies and dreadful sartorial sense. The problem for them, however, is that you are almost certainly not motivated by money but by the sheer joy of research and you will opt for a career inside the ivory tower investigating the nuances of Shroedinger's take on quantum mechanics. While this will inevitably limit your access to incredibly high quality p#ssy you likely won't ever notice because hyper equations are more pleasurable than a sloppy blow job any day of the week.
The second easiest path to I Banking is to be in the upper 10% of your first-year Top 10 MBA class. Being in this crew guarantees an interview and, unless during said interview one pulls a Majerus on a partner's desk, you'll get an offer for a summer internship. Then you work like a dog all summer because this is the real interview; the reward is you head back to Wharton for your second year with not only an offer and all two-year expenses paid but every hot babe at Villanova, LaSalle, and St Joe's will drop her thong for you in a heartbeat before you finally settle down with Ainsley from Bryn Mawr.
The third easiest path is to be a prepster legacy. The fact that you followed Dads, Uncle Atherton, and most of the partners by prepping at Phillips Exeter, Horace Mann, or Trinity then matriculating from Amherst, Williams, or Bowdoin with a degree in The Classics essentially ensures you will get the nod (starting, of course, after spending the summer on The Cape.) This model is more tailored for the smaller boutique firms which is the proper place for a man of breeding, in any event.
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Wags,
Your point is 100% correct: getting a position in I Banking is all about the interview. You have to nail it regardless of pedigree. The key is to be able to get the interview.
The absolute easiest path for getting into I Banking is to be a THG from MIT, Princeton, Harvard, Chicago, Michigan, or Cal. Every firm and fund in the world will beg you to join, despite your mouth breathing tendencies and dreadful sartorial sense. The problem for them, however, is that you are almost certainly not motivated by money but by the sheer joy of research and you will opt for a career inside the ivory tower investigating the nuances of Shroedinger's take on quantum mechanics. While this will inevitably limit your access to incredibly high quality p#ssy you likely won't ever notice because hyper equations are more pleasurable than a sloppy blow job any day of the week.
The second easiest path to I Banking is to be in the upper 10% of your first-year Top 10 MBA class. Being in this crew guarantees an interview and, unless during said interview one pulls a Majerus on a partner's desk, you'll get an offer for a summer internship. Then you work like a dog all summer because this is the real interview; the reward is you head back to Wharton for your second year with not only an offer and all two-year expenses paid but every hot babe at Villanova, LaSalle, and St Joe's will drop her thong for you in a heartbeat before you finally settle down with Ainsley from Bryn Mawr.
The third easiest path is to be a prepster legacy. The fact that you followed Dads, Uncle Atherton, and most of the partners by prepping at Phillips Exeter, Horace Mann, or Trinity then matriculating from Amherst, Williams, or Bowdoin with a degree in The Classics essentially ensures you will get the nod (starting, of course, after spending the summer on The Cape.) This model is more tailored for the smaller boutique firms which is the proper place for a man of breeding, in any event.
And then you can start a twitter account about Goldman Sachs elevator, the be outed, then write a book proving you to be an even bigger loser than previously thought.
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And then you can start a twitter account about Goldman Sachs elevator, the be outed, then write a book proving you to be an even bigger loser than previously thought.
Here is where we disagree - not sure about his book but LeFevre posted some gems. This is pure F#CKING gold:
"Getting married is betting some chick half your net worth that you’ll love each other forever"
"No one would run a marathon if they had to sign a confidentiality agreement first"
"A market sell-off is worse than divorce. I lose half of my money, but my wife is still around"
"Wearing a Rolex is like driving an Audi. It means you have a little bit of money, but not much to say"
"Apple needs slaves to destroy the earth by mining rare earth metals for iPhones that are assembled by Chinese children. And a Tesla does 8 times the environmental harm as a gas-powered car.......But, please.. tell me more about the plastic straw in my gin & tonic"
"Black Friday is the Special Olympics of capitalism"
"Want to get to know someone on 1st date? Ask about their first pet or favorite teacher. Then, read all their emails"
“How do i short Major League Soccer now that their entire fan base is getting deported?"
"Good thing Elon Musk is African, otherwise Silicon Valley might have a diversity problem"
"Hey @PayPal, nice move canceling 400 NC jobs over transgender bathrooms. BTW, your Asia HQ is in Singapore, where gay sex = 2 years in jail"
"If women really get paid 20% less for the same work, wouldn't a shareholder conscious company just hire only women? "
"On Valentine's Day, send your girl flowers anonymously. If she doesn't mention it, dump her. Sorry, but she's cheating on you."
"If she has a cracked iPhone screen and a Michael Kors bag, don’t give her your real name”
"It’s better to have loved and lost interest"
"The Pope loves the poor and hates contraception, which is a great formula for more poor"
"Wall Street’s intern problem - hiring rich kids in exchange for business from influential families, aka bribery"
"Chris Christie's fake tan is even grosser when you imagine him on a tanning bed"
"Millennials push $15 min wage, so McDonald's adds 2k self-serve kiosks & says with smirk: Millennials prefer a screen to human interaction"
Pure F#CKING Gold, baby!
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Question ...
To teach HS (or middle school) history, do you need a history degree or an education degree?
What I'm asking is does cutting history mean we are cutting potential history teachers? Or are future HS history teachers getting education degrees?
All of my HS history teachers were sports coaches... and they were all dumber than a box of rocks. A couple couldn't even read the text books. I would expect more from a history major than that...
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All of my HS history teachers were sports coaches... and they were all dumber than a box of rocks. A couple couldn't even read the text books. I would expect more from a history major than that...
Freshman year at MU I took an American History class and the professor starts the class by saying "this is college level history, which is different than HS. In HS, you probably had a history teacher with the first name 'Coach'". The professor was awesome. I can't remember his name, but he looked like Johnny Carson and didn't have a left hand.
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(http://www.afarleycountryattire.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/magee-moleskin-waistcoat-red-29814.jpg)
So for 48 hours I was trying to figure out what you meant by this. And it finally hit me this morning. He's probably the last good chancellor they had.
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Freshman year at MU I took an American History class and the professor starts the class by saying "this is college level history, which is different than HS. In HS, you probably had a history teacher with the first name 'Coach'". The professor was awesome. I can't remember his name, but he looked like Johnny Carson and didn't have a left hand.
Karel Bicha
He used to read excerpts from A Prairie Home Companion in his class.
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All of my HS history teachers were sports coaches... and they were all dumber than a box of rocks. A couple couldn't even read the text books. I would expect more from a history major than that...
Hell... after watching a few Time Life videos, I could probably teach a WWII History class better than most history majors, and certainly most phys ed majors.
I believe the answer to the original question is that to teach history in a public HS, you typically need to be a licensed/certified educator in your state, which for most people usually requires a bachelor's and some sort of training program. I believe most BA-Education programs embed the training requirements into the curricula, so my guess is that you're more likely to see an ed major teaching history than a history major.
But since they generally set their own standards, you may be more likely to see a history major actually teaching history in a private or charter school.
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Here is where we disagree - not sure about his book but LeFevre posted some gems. This is pure F#CKING gold:
Pure F#CKING Gold, baby!
More from the genius of Goldman Sachs Elevator ...
#1: If you can only be good at one thing, be good at lying... because if you're good at lying, you're good at everything.
#1: Money can’t buy happiness but it solves 95% of the problems that make you unhappy.
#1: Some chick asked me what I would do with 10 million bucks. I told her I’d wonder where the rest of my money went.
#1: There was a time when we sent the undesirables to islands. Now you have to buy an island just to get away from them.
#1: Whenever someone asks how I’m doing, I usually just lie and say ‘good’, even though I’m doing a lot better than that.
#1: Only Neanderthals resort to violence. I prefer crushing one’s spirit, hope, or ego.
#1: It’s too bad stupidity isn’t painful.
#1: If someone has a tattoo saying, ‘Only God Can Judge Me’, I’m gonna prove them wrong.
#1: Too many people are smart enough to be angry, but not smart enough to be successful.
#1: Tattoos aren’t my thing. That’d be like putting a bumper sticker on a Lamborghini.
#1: I start every cell conversation with ‘my phone’s about to die’ so they don’t waste my time.
#1: I would pay like $500k to watch the Kardashians play scrabble.
#1: Can we please stop calling them hipsters and go back to calling them hairy wet cats?
#1: The lottery is just a way of taxing poor people who don't know math.
#1: If I could choose between world peace and a reasonable fortune, my first Lambo would be orange.
#1: If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullcrap.
#1: When life gives you lemons, order the lobster tail.
#1: Almost time for children to learn a valuable life lesson. Santa loves rich kids more.
#1: [At the gym] What machine should I use to impress the girls?
#2: The ATM.
#1: Listening to Obama talk about the economy is like listening to a chick talk about football.
#1: A guy came up to me at the gym and asked me what event I was training so hard for. Life, mf-er.
#1: YOLO is poor for carpe diem.
#1: Fact. Nearly 50% of all American workers have less than $10k saved for retirement.
#2: Damn. That wouldn't cover a ski weekend.
#1: Getting laid off from Goldman is like being traded by the Yankees. You’ll probably still make millions, but it’s just not the same.
#1: Black Friday is the Special Olympics of capitalism.
#1: Money might not buy happiness, but I'll take my chances!
#1: Handshakes and tie knots. I don't have time for someone who can't master those basic skills.
#1: I never give money to homeless people. I can't reward failure in good conscience.
#1: Groupon... Food stamps for the middle class.
#1: My garbage disposal eats better than 98% of the world.
#1: The fact that most people are too stupid to know how dumb they really are is the fabric holding our society together.
#1: All cats are libertarians. Completely dependent on others but fully convinced of their own independence.
#1: Talent is the only thing that stands between most people and their dreams.
#1: Do what you love’ is great advice for making 30k a year.
#1: It’s ok to be the lion. And it’s ok to be the gazelle. Either way, you just have to be faster than the slowest gazelle.
#1: The most and least successful people all share the same trait: thinking they’re never wrong.
#1: Statistically speaking, you shouldn’t worry about what your first wife’s mother looks like.
#1: If her first phone was an iPhone, she’s too young for you, bro.
#1: Some of the best moments in life are the ones you can’t tell anyone about.
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Hell... after watching a few Time Life videos, I could probably teach a WWII History class better than most history majors, and certainly most phys ed majors.
I believe the answer to the original question is that to teach history in a public HS, you typically need to be a licensed/certified educator in your state, which for most people usually requires a bachelor's and some sort of training program. I believe most BA-Education programs embed the training requirements into the curricula, so my guess is that you're more likely to see an ed major teaching history than a history major.
But since they generally set their own standards, you may be more likely to see a history major actually teaching history in a private or charter school.
While there are exceptions, in Wisconsin you either have to be licensed in Elementary Education to teach K-5, or for grades 6-12, need to receive licesensing in a specific subject (in this case social studies) along with receiving teacher training.
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But since they generally set their own standards, you may be more likely to see a history major actually teaching history in a private or charter school.
Not sure how it is in other states, but a certain percentage of staff at charter schools here in North Cackalacky don't have to have certificates or any other education credentials. I think it's 20% or so.
In other words, if I impressed a charter school principal/board enough, I could show up today and get a full-time job teaching 7th-grade math. I actually taught a middle-school journalism course one year at the school where I coached ... it was more difficult than I expected!
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Not sure how it is in other states, but a certain percentage of staff at charter schools here in North Cackalacky don't have to have certificates or any other education credentials. I think it's 20% or so.
In other words, if I impressed a charter school principal/board enough, I could show up today and get a full-time job teaching 7th-grade math. I actually taught a middle-school journalism course one year at the school where I coached ... it was more difficult than I expected!
So what you're saying is that you're more qualified as a math teacher than a journalism teacher?
In addition, I believe it's Indiana who also waives the standard licensing requirement in under-served areas provided that the person at least has a bachelor's degree, passes a background check, and diligently pursues the necessary credentials for licensing within a certain period of time. I think they call it a provisional or temporary license or something. So - if you passed the background check - you could be teaching at French Lick L. Bird HS this time next week!
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Freshman year at MU I took an American History class and the professor starts the class by saying "this is college level history, which is different than HS. In HS, you probably had a history teacher with the first name 'Coach'". The professor was awesome. I can't remember his name, but he looked like Johnny Carson and didn't have a left hand.
"That was some wild and wacky history."
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So for 48 hours I was trying to figure out what you meant by this. And it finally hit me this morning. He's probably the last good chancellor they had.
I was skeptical when he was first elected governor but he was actually very effective as WI’s chief executive. Good consensus builder who worked both sides of the aisle. A non-career politician who served the people and not himself.
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If memory serves, none other than one Richard Raymond Majerus was a history major at MU.
I have to believe that his mastery of linens and their absorbent properties was honed while sitting in the Varsity Theatre for Fr Donnelly's Western Civ survey course.
I graduated from MU in 2008 and had Fr. Donnelly's history classes. He was admittedly old as Moses, but was he really teaching when Majerus was a student?
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I was initially very much against the changes UWSP is making. After more thought, I think it is an unfortunate consequence of finite resources, lack of demand, and demographics, and I understand the action. I still think it is sad and those shrugging it off as no big deal are mistaken. UWSP will certainly be the lesser for this. But I also recognize that resources are finite and hard decisions need to be made. Just some general observations:
1) Having a few survey courses available in history is NOT offering the same quality of courses (and professors) as it would if it sponsored a major. These will be very basic Western civ courses probably taught by adjuncts. Part of the magic of a university is discovering a topic you are interested in, and doing a deep dive, if not as a part of your major, then as an elective. The options for students will be much more limited.
2) The liberal arts are crucial to a well-informed populace and a functioning society. Will UWSP graduates no longer be able to contribute to this society because their school dropped a history major? Of course not. But it is a loss. Students in other majors will lose opportunities to learn more in a cross-discplinary nature. Maybe an English major wanted to learn more about Tudor England when Shakespeare wrote...well that class will probably no longer be available. Maybe a music major wanted to study Baroque Europe. Maybe a philsophy major wanted to learn more about Ancient Greece and Rome. You get the idea.
3) Undergraduate education is not a vocational school. There should be a wide range of learning opportunities available to help form a fully educated human. Finding employment after is one of several, but not the only, outcome of undergraduate studies.
Again, all things considered, I understand the action. But we also shouldn't act like it is of no consequence.
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I was initially very much against the changes UWSP is making. After more thought, I think it is an unfortunate consequence of finite resources, lack of demand, and demographics, and I understand the action. I still think it is sad and those shrugging it off as no big deal are mistaken. UWSP will certainly be the lesser for this. But I also recognize that resources are finite and hard decisions need to be made. Just some general observations:
1) Having a few survey courses available in history is NOT offering the same quality of courses (and professors) as it would if it sponsored a major. These will be very basic Western civ courses probably taught by adjuncts. Part of the magic of a university is discovering a topic you are interested in, and doing a deep dive, if not as a part of your major, then as an elective. The options for students will be much more limited.
2) The liberal arts are crucial to a well-informed populace and a functioning society. Will UWSP graduates no longer be able to contribute to this society because their school dropped a history major? Of course not. But it is a loss. Students in other majors will lose opportunities to learn more in a cross-discplinary nature. Maybe an English major wanted to learn more about Tudor England when Shakespeare wrote...well that class will probably no longer be available. Maybe a music major wanted to study Baroque Europe. Maybe a philsophy major wanted to learn more about Ancient Greece and Rome. You get the idea.
3) Undergraduate education is not a vocational school. There should be a wide range of learning opportunities available to help form a fully educated human. Finding employment after is one of several, but not the only, outcome of undergraduate studies.
Again, all things considered, I understand the action. But we also shouldn't act like it is of no consequence.
What are the other outcomes then? Students that truly thirst for history and would use it as a major to go onto graduate study will find universities where the major is offered. The issue is there are far too many unemployable liberal arts grads from "lesser" institutions. Even if a student is fortunate enough to attend university debt free, they graduate with their history or similar liberal arts degree and find themselves unemployable cause they are competing with students who are better prepared for jobs in the business or non-profit world based on their respective undergraduate curriculum.
When less then half the population went to college, then yes the romantic notion of attending a university to broaden your mind, get a well rounded diverse education, and learn to "think" was far more valid. But now its become almost a pre-req and students need to separate themselves.
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I graduated from MU in 2008 and had Fr. Donnelly's history classes. He was admittedly old as Moses, but was he really teaching when Majerus was a student?
I think the Towel Stainer was before Fr Donnelly's time.
I actually took J. Michael Phayer for the Western Civ survey course so I missed the fun and games of History at the Varsity. Phayer was a great guy.
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Wags,
Your point is 100% correct: getting a position in I Banking is all about the interview. You have to nail it regardless of pedigree. The key is to be able to get the interview.
The absolute easiest path for getting into I Banking is to be a THG from MIT, Princeton, Harvard, Chicago, Michigan, or Cal. Every firm and fund in the world will beg you to join, despite your mouth breathing tendencies and dreadful sartorial sense. The problem for them, however, is that you are almost certainly not motivated by money but by the sheer joy of research and you will opt for a career inside the ivory tower investigating the nuances of Shroedinger's take on quantum mechanics. While this will inevitably limit your access to incredibly high quality p#ssy you likely won't ever notice because hyper equations are more pleasurable than a sloppy blow job any day of the week.
The second easiest path to I Banking is to be in the upper 10% of your first-year Top 10 MBA class. Being in this crew guarantees an interview and, unless during said interview one pulls a Majerus on a partner's desk, you'll get an offer for a summer internship. Then you work like a dog all summer because this is the real interview; the reward is you head back to Wharton for your second year with not only an offer and all two-year expenses paid but every hot babe at Villanova, LaSalle, and St Joe's will drop her thong for you in a heartbeat before you finally settle down with Ainsley from Bryn Mawr.
The third easiest path is to be a prepster legacy. The fact that you followed Dads, Uncle Atherton, and most of the partners by prepping at Phillips Exeter, Horace Mann, or Trinity then matriculating from Amherst, Williams, or Bowdoin with a degree in The Classics essentially ensures you will get the nod (starting, of course, after spending the summer on The Cape.) This model is more tailored for the smaller boutique firms which is the proper place for a man of breeding, in any event.
I know this is supposed to be satirical and Porky chuckled a little bit while reading but the unfortunate truth is this culture of Northeastern elitism which the baby speaks of is not only alive, but thriving!
Porky very recently had to attend a Yale squash banquet for a family obligation on the spouses side and the prep school references and jokes turned porky’s skin into rinds with the first 5 minutes. Porky has rarely felt as uncomfotable. Sad but true!
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So what you're saying is that you're more qualified as a math teacher than a journalism teacher?
Hail no ... I went into journalism because they told me I wouldn't have to do math!
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Hail no ... I went into journalism because they told me I wouldn't have to do math!
https://www.youtube.com/v/_FwkHaTWEn0