Some ranked teams didn't dodge the upset

[rocket surgeon]

Brew and rocket are right. If we miss the tourney, we have to move on (brew). If we win a weakened BE, but get bounced in 1st rd, it buys another year or two, but that's it (rocket).

There's a schism in how people look to MU's future with wojo, but let's start with points of agreement: I'd bet nearly everyone agrees Wojo has been a fantastic recruiter and below-average coach. 

I'd bet nearly everyone has been in disappointed in Wojo-era results. The difference in thought comes from how we see the future unfolding: some say 5 years have shown Wojo's below-average coaching is not likely to improve and will prevent MU from reaching loftier heights ("past performance promises future results"). Others are more hopeful and say Wojo is growing into his role, and that if he's armed with talent, will excel ("past performance does not promise future results").

Both perspectives seem valid. But if this year is a loser, both perspectives should merge into the same place - things won't be getting better. It's both sides.

Thank you bbj for finally seeing what I've been trying to say.  I take some chit from some of my peers who remember the years of al and how we were perennially REALLY good and aspired to be top 5 if not higher, all the time.  I'm a fan of wojos and if he can't take this group of pretty good ballers a good notch up the ncaa ladder( not just BE) I'm sure the powers that be will hesitate to sign him to a decent enough contract where recruits will feel comfy coming to MU. 

Now if we can get a group of players who like MUs tradition, which is starting to fade in the rear view mirror btw, and want to come here to make a difference, that's a whole different animal.  We need to go on a run and make the nation take notice; when we play on national tv, the announcers doing a dickie v all over us like he does duke.  Or close to it anyway as we all know he needs a new pair of panties after he does a dukie eyn'a. 

[WarriorDad]

Brew and rocket are right. If we miss the tourney, we have to move on (brew). If we win a weakened BE, but get bounced in 1st rd, it buys another year or two, but that's it (rocket).

There's a schism in how people look to MU's future with wojo, but let's start with points of agreement: I'd bet nearly everyone agrees Wojo has been a fantastic recruiter and below-average coach. 

I'd bet nearly everyone has been in disappointed in Wojo-era results. The difference in thought comes from how we see the future unfolding: some say 5 years have shown Wojo's below-average coaching is not likely to improve and will prevent MU from reaching loftier heights ("past performance promises future results"). Others are more hopeful and say Wojo is growing into his role, and that if he's armed with talent, will excel ("past performance does not promise future results").

Both perspectives seem valid. But if this year is a loser, both perspectives should merge into the same place - things won't be getting better. It's both sides.

You don't speak for me, I guess I'm not part of the nearly everyone.  He took over a team that had misaligned players, transfers, etc.  The results are what I expected.  Not disappointed nor enthralled, but have been what I thought they would be.  The Big East turned out to be a lot better than Coach Williams said it would be, and that has to be factored in as well.  The ability to shine in a league this tough with a rebuild was supposed to be easier with a decent, but not great conference.

This year has to make the tournament, finish top 4 in the conference, maybe top 3 to keep my expectations in check.  If we don't make the tournament, then the fallout will take care of its sell.  But we will make the tournament, will be a top 4 team in this conference, perhaps better, barring any injuries.  People are freaking out over the first few games.  Relax a little bit and let these guys come into their own.

[TallTitan34]

You don't speak for me, I guess I'm not part of the nearly everyone.  He took over a team that had misaligned players, transfers, etc.  The results are what I expected.  Not disappointed nor enthralled, but have been what I thought they would be.  The Big East turned out to be a lot better than Coach Williams said it would be, and that has to be factored in as well.  The ability to shine in a league this tough with a rebuild was supposed to be easier with a decent, but not great conference.

This year has to make the tournament, finish top 4 in the conference, maybe top 3 to keep my expectations in check.  If we don't make the tournament, then the fallout will take care of its sell.  But we will make the tournament, will be a top 4 team in this conference, perhaps better, barring any injuries.  People are freaking out over the first few games.  Relax a little bit and let these guys come into their own.

We lost to Green Bay the year we made the Elite Eight.  It happens.

[MuMark]

Do people realize that we have exactly the record we were expected to have at this point?

I mean we haven't loss to North Dakota State....or Green Bay....or Nebraska Omaha. We lost to Indiana on the road.....a game we were expected to lose by all objective measures.....Pomeroy.....Vegas.....etc...

Just for context purposes.....in our elite 8 year.....We beat Southeastern Louisiana by 11....they were rated 285 by Pomeroy. We lost to Green Bay 49-47....they were 126th.

We beat North Carolina Central by 9......They were 164th.

We also got blown out by Florida 82-49........

Bad games happen......it is not unusual for MU teams in the past....even good MU teams...to struggle against cupcakes....and get blown out at times.....especially on the road against good teams.

In Crowder and DJO's last season we got blown out at home by Vandy........that was a good Vandy team but anybody who was there will never forget how lopsided that game was.......we literally could not make a shot in the first half.....halftime score 44-22.

Also lost to LSU by 8......that was a mediocre to bad LSU team.

Got blown out at ND 76-59.....

We haven't looked great......yet have still had comfortable margins in all of our buy games. We laid an egg against IU.....we have done it before and will do it again.....it happens in basketball....you aren't going to play great every game.

We will face teams with better talent...sometimes much better talent.....like Weds........and teams with similar talent that have great games will beat us if we don't play great..........I guess I have just watched too many games over the years to go off the deep end over clunkers. I watch other teams.....schools with talent that is FAR superior to ours struggle with teams they should blow out......Kentucky last night for instance.....

I enjoy the wins.....and get over the losses quicker now then i used to......I love MU but it's just sports.....

[fjm]

Do people realize that we have exactly the record we were expected to have at this point?

I mean we haven't loss to North Dakota State....or Green Bay....or Nebraska Omaha. We lost to Indiana on the road.....a game we were expected to lose by all objective measures.....Pomeroy.....Vegas.....etc...

Just for context purposes.....in our elite 8 year.....We beat Southeastern Louisiana by 11....they were rated 285 by Pomeroy. We lost to Green Bay 49-47....they were 126th.

We beat North Carolina Central by 9......They were 164th.

We also got blown out by Florida 82-49........

Bad games happen......it is not unusual for MU teams in the past....even good MU teams...to struggle against cupcakes....and get blown out at times.....especially on the road against good teams.

In Crowder and DJO's last season we got blown out at home by Vandy........that was a good Vandy team but anybody who was there will never forget how lopsided that game was.......we literally could not make a shot in the first half.....halftime score 44-22.

Also lost to LSU by 8......that was a mediocre to bad LSU team.

Got blown out at ND 76-59.....

We haven't looked great......yet have still had comfortable margins in all of our buy games. We laid an egg against IU.....we have done it before and will do it again.....it happens in basketball....you aren't going to play great every game.

We will face teams with better talent...sometimes much better talent.....like Weds........and teams with similar talent that have great games will beat us if we don't play great..........I guess I have just watched too many games over the years to go off the deep end over clunkers. I watch other teams.....schools with talent that is FAR superior to ours struggle with teams they should blow out......Kentucky last night for instance.....

I enjoy the wins.....and get over the losses quicker now then i used to......I love MU but it's just sports.....

No offense man. But you're quite the jerk! You know that NO FACTS are allowed on this board. Stop trying to ruin everyone's day ya meanie!

MU SCOOP: NO FACTS ALLOWED

[Pakuni]

Do people realize that we have exactly the record we were expected to have at this point?

I mean we haven't loss to North Dakota State....or Green Bay....or Nebraska Omaha. We lost to Indiana on the road.....a game we were expected to lose by all objective measures.....Pomeroy.....Vegas.....etc....

Ban this guy. Reason, perspective and logic have no place here when the knives are out.

[tower912]

Do people realize that we have exactly the record we were expected to have at this point?

I mean we haven't loss to North Dakota State....or Green Bay....or Nebraska Omaha. We lost to Indiana on the road.....a game we were expected to lose by all objective measures.....Pomeroy.....Vegas.....etc...

Just for context purposes.....in our elite 8 year.....We beat Southeastern Louisiana by 11....they were rated 285 by Pomeroy. We lost to Green Bay 49-47....they were 126th.

We beat North Carolina Central by 9......They were 164th.

We also got blown out by Florida 82-49........

Bad games happen......it is not unusual for MU teams in the past....even good MU teams...to struggle against cupcakes....and get blown out at times.....especially on the road against good teams.

In Crowder and DJO's last season we got blown out at home by Vandy........that was a good Vandy team but anybody who was there will never forget how lopsided that game was.......we literally could not make a shot in the first half.....halftime score 44-22.

Also lost to LSU by 8......that was a mediocre to bad LSU team.

Got blown out at ND 76-59.....

We haven't looked great......yet have still had comfortable margins in all of our buy games. We laid an egg against IU.....we have done it before and will do it again.....it happens in basketball....you aren't going to play great every game.

We will face teams with better talent...sometimes much better talent.....like Weds........and teams with similar talent that have great games will beat us if we don't play great..........I guess I have just watched too many games over the years to go off the deep end over clunkers. I watch other teams.....schools with talent that is FAR superior to ours struggle with teams they should blow out......Kentucky last night for instance.....

I enjoy the wins.....and get over the losses quicker now then i used to......I love MU but it's just sports.....

Can I get an Amen?

[GGGG]

Do people realize that we have exactly the record we were expected to have at this point?

I mean we haven't loss to North Dakota State....or Green Bay....or Nebraska Omaha. We lost to Indiana on the road.....a game we were expected to lose by all objective measures.....Pomeroy.....Vegas.....etc...

Just for context purposes.....in our elite 8 year.....We beat Southeastern Louisiana by 11....they were rated 285 by Pomeroy. We lost to Green Bay 49-47....they were 126th.

We beat North Carolina Central by 9......They were 164th.

We also got blown out by Florida 82-49........

Bad games happen......it is not unusual for MU teams in the past....even good MU teams...to struggle against cupcakes....and get blown out at times.....especially on the road against good teams.

In Crowder and DJO's last season we got blown out at home by Vandy........that was a good Vandy team but anybody who was there will never forget how lopsided that game was.......we literally could not make a shot in the first half.....halftime score 44-22.

Also lost to LSU by 8......that was a mediocre to bad LSU team.

Got blown out at ND 76-59.....

We haven't looked great......yet have still had comfortable margins in all of our buy games. We laid an egg against IU.....we have done it before and will do it again.....it happens in basketball....you aren't going to play great every game.

We will face teams with better talent...sometimes much better talent.....like Weds........and teams with similar talent that have great games will beat us if we don't play great..........I guess I have just watched too many games over the years to go off the deep end over clunkers. I watch other teams.....schools with talent that is FAR superior to ours struggle with teams they should blow out......Kentucky last night for instance.....

I enjoy the wins.....and get over the losses quicker now then i used to......I love MU but it's just sports.....

+1,000,000,000,000,000

[cheebs09]

I agree to a point. In a vacuum, yes we shouldn't be freaking out. Also, I'm not even close to giving up on the season.

I think the angst comes from the fact this was supposed to be the year we jump forward, and our first real test we flunked. And we flunked it in the ways that have burned us consistently during the Wojo era.

I think this is still a tournament team. However, if the Big East is down this year, we need to start playing better soon so that we can get some resume wins. Otherwise, we will likely be living on the bubble.

[Loose Cannon]

Do people realize that we have exactly the record we were expected to have at this point?

I mean we haven't loss to North Dakota State....or Green Bay....or Nebraska Omaha. We lost to Indiana on the road.....a game we were expected to lose by all objective measures.....Pomeroy.....Vegas.....etc...

Just for context purposes.....in our elite 8 year.....We beat Southeastern Louisiana by 11....they were rated 285 by Pomeroy. We lost to Green Bay 49-47....they were 126th.

We beat North Carolina Central by 9......They were 164th.

We also got blown out by Florida 82-49........

Bad games happen......it is not unusual for MU teams in the past....even good MU teams...to struggle against cupcakes....and get blown out at times.....especially on the road against good teams.

In Crowder and DJO's last season we got blown out at home by Vandy........that was a good Vandy team but anybody who was there will never forget how lopsided that game was.......we literally could not make a shot in the first half.....halftime score 44-22.

Also lost to LSU by 8......that was a mediocre to bad LSU team.

Got blown out at ND 76-59.....

We haven't looked great......yet have still had comfortable margins in all of our buy games. We laid an egg against IU.....we have done it before and will do it again.....it happens in basketball....you aren't going to play great every game.

We will face teams with better talent...sometimes much better talent.....like Weds........and teams with similar talent that have great games will beat us if we don't play great..........I guess I have just watched too many games over the years to go off the deep end over clunkers. I watch other teams.....schools with talent that is FAR superior to ours struggle with teams they should blow out......Kentucky last night for instance.....

I enjoy the wins.....and get over the losses quicker now then i used to......I love MU but it's just sports.....

How did someone with that thinking be allowed to be a member of this Board.  Nice Job.

[Its DJOver]

I agree to a point. In a vacuum, yes we shouldn't be freaking out. Also, I'm not even close to giving up on the season.

I think the angst comes from the fact this was supposed to be the year we jump forward, and our first real test we flunked. And we flunked it in the ways that have burned us consistently during the Wojo era.

I think this is still a tournament team. However, if the Big East is down this year, we need to start playing better soon so that we can get some resume wins. Otherwise, we will likely be living on the bubble.

The Beast is down as a whole yes, but it's not like we can't get quality wins in conference.  We lack a truly elite team this year, but all 10 teams are currently top 75 Kenpom, so it's not like as soon as the calendar turn to January we can longer pick up good wins and only accumulate bad losses. 

[WarriorInNYC]

I'm guessing the 2 points that Loyola (MD) received were intended for Loyola-Chicago?

And not the team that is 1-3 that includes a home loss to Dartmouth

[Archies Bat]

I enjoy the wins.....and get over the losses quicker now then i used to......I love MU but it's just sports.....

This is where I am.

IU was a bad loss, but I got over it quickly, in part by staying off Scoop for a few days.  I have no problem with folks who are down after a loss like IU, but I recover much quicker if I stay away and avoid the comments.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

I agree to a point. In a vacuum, yes we shouldn't be freaking out. Also, I'm not even close to giving up on the season.

I think the angst comes from the fact this was supposed to be the year we jump forward, and our first real test we flunked. And we flunked it in the ways that have burned us consistently during the Wojo era.

I think this is still a tournament team. However, if the Big East is down this year, we need to start playing better soon so that we can get some resume wins. Otherwise, we will likely be living on the bubble.

This.  And its not only the results themselves...the team just has not looked very good at all for any extended minutes whatsoever. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

This.  And its not only the results themselves...the team just has not looked very good at all for any extended minutes whatsoever.

I disagree. We looked very good against UMBC and Bethune Cookman. I'd also argue we looked good against Presbyterian but couldn't buy a shot. I think we started the game 2/17 on bunnies and unguarded jump shots.

Defense has looked much better to start the season. No comparison to last season, the problem of course being that in the one game against a quality team it looked exactly like last season. If that's who we really are then we are in trouble. I don't think that is true but could absolutely be wrong.

I think the reason people think "we haven't looked good" is the offense. We have been spoiled the past two seasons with elite level offense. This year it looks like we are going to instead have a very good offense. Because we are comparing it to past seasons we think the offense is terrible. If we compared it against other teams we would think differently.

[MuMark]

Bethune Cookman went down to the wire with Miami...........Miami is 22nd on Pomeroy


https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/college/acc/university-of-miami/article221724360.html

[Floorslapper]

Do people realize that we have exactly the record we were expected to have at this point?

I mean we haven't loss to North Dakota State....or Green Bay....or Nebraska Omaha. We lost to Indiana on the road.....a game we were expected to lose by all objective measures.....Pomeroy.....Vegas.....etc...

Just for context purposes.....in our elite 8 year.....We beat Southeastern Louisiana by 11....they were rated 285 by Pomeroy. We lost to Green Bay 49-47....they were 126th.

We beat North Carolina Central by 9......They were 164th.

We also got blown out by Florida 82-49........

Bad games happen......it is not unusual for MU teams in the past....even good MU teams...to struggle against cupcakes....and get blown out at times.....especially on the road against good teams.

In Crowder and DJO's last season we got blown out at home by Vandy........that was a good Vandy team but anybody who was there will never forget how lopsided that game was.......we literally could not make a shot in the first half.....halftime score 44-22.

Also lost to LSU by 8......that was a mediocre to bad LSU team.

Got blown out at ND 76-59.....

We haven't looked great......yet have still had comfortable margins in all of our buy games. We laid an egg against IU.....we have done it before and will do it again.....it happens in basketball....you aren't going to play great every game.

We will face teams with better talent...sometimes much better talent.....like Weds........and teams with similar talent that have great games will beat us if we don't play great..........I guess I have just watched too many games over the years to go off the deep end over clunkers. I watch other teams.....schools with talent that is FAR superior to ours struggle with teams they should blow out......Kentucky last night for instance.....

I enjoy the wins.....and get over the losses quicker now then i used to......I love MU but it's just sports.....

Your post would carry legitimate weight, IF* the history of early season clunkers under Wojo, ALSO resulted in post-season success as we had under BUZZ.

So, just because Marquette University in the past would have a pre-season clunker (under Buzz or Crean) that is irrelevant and illogical because you fail to account for the most important aspect to our past success:  The head coach.

IF* Wojo goes on and leads us to a Sweet 16 or Elite 8 this year, even being his biggest critic, I'll be able to give the guy some grace for an early season clunker next year.  The problem is we've had the clunkers every year, and we've yet to win an NCAA game under Wojo. 

He's yet to prove he can get the job done.  Meanwhile, Buzz has his team at Va Tech 16 in the country with a solid neutral court win over at the time Number 12 Purdue last night.

[Its DJOver]

Your post would carry legitimate weight, IF* the history of early season clunkers under Wojo, ALSO resulted in post-season success as we had under BUZZ.

So, just because Marquette University in the past would have a pre-season clunker (under Buzz or Crean) that is irrelevant and illogical because you fail to account for the most important aspect to our past success:  The head coach.

IF* Wojo goes on and leads us to a Sweet 16 or Elite 8 this year, even being his biggest critic, I'll be able to give the guy some grace for an early season clunker next year.  The problem is we've had the clunkers every year, and we've yet to win an NCAA game under Wojo. 

He's yet to prove he can get the job done.  Meanwhile, Buzz has his team at Va Tech 16 in the country with a solid neutral court win over at the time Number 12 Purdue last night.

#FakeNews
#Lies
#Numberaren'tyoustrongsuit
#12isn't23
#BuzzhasthesamenumberofNCAAwinsatVTthatWojohas

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

He's talking about KenPom ranking.

MuMark and Ners are having two different conversations. MuMark is showing that a clunker in November is a single data point and not a good predictor of future success. Ners is talking about having faith in the head coach's ability to get the job done.

[Its DJOver]

He's talking about KenPom ranking.

MuMark and Ners are having two different conversations. MuMark is showing that a clunker in November is a single data point and not a good predictor of future success. Ners is talking about having faith in the head coach's ability to get the job done.

Fair point.  I'll still stand by my assertion that numbers aren't his strong suit since he thinks Kenpom 93 is the same as Kenpom 34.

[Floorslapper]

#FakeNews
#Lies
#Numberaren'tyoustrongsuit
#12isn't23
#BuzzhasthesamenumberofNCAAwinsatVTthatWojohas

Try Pomeroy rankings brah.  As you saw our Number 24 ranking meant jack.

#Fake News - Buzz won 8 NCAA tourney games at MU.  He also walked into a perinneal ACC cellar dweller that won 2 games the season before taking the helm, hadn't been to an NCAA tournament since 2007 and as a program has a total of 10 NCAA appearances, two of which are from Buzz.

[Its DJOver]

Try Pomeroy rankings brah.  As you saw our Number 24 ranking meant jack.

#Fake News - Buzz won 8 NCAA tourney games at MU.  He also walked into a perinneal ACC cellar dweller that won 2 games the season before taking the helm, hadn't been to an NCAA tournament since 2007 and as a program has a total of 10 NCAA appearances, two of which are from Buzz.

Please learn to read.  "BuzzhasthesamenumberofNCAAwinsatVTthatWojohas"

If you want to compare different schools, I think Wojo might have a couple of Duke rings lying around for you.

[Floorslapper]

Fair point.  I'll still stand by my assertion that numbers aren't his strong suit since he thinks Kenpom 93 is the same as Kenpom 34.

Please quote where I posted this.  Said the same sh$t, different year - getting blasted on National TV early in the season in our first real measuring stick game.  Seen that movie before.

And btw - TAMU's attempt to assert the above was wrong - he used the  2016 team's final season ranking.  The post I quoted was from November of 2016, when we were ranked 31 at time of the game, and finished the year at 32 (so you need to look at 2017 ranking.)  But again, I understand the grasping at straws effort our most patient fans have, to support the performance thus far.

[Floorslapper]

Please learn to read.  "BuzzhasthesamenumberofNCAAwinsatVTthatWojohas"

If you want to compare different schools, I think Wojo might have a couple of Duke rings lying around for you.

It's too easy with you DJOover.  At least my other haters here can put forth some shred of a competent counterpoint/make their case in a respectable manner.

[Its DJOver]

It's too easy with you DJOover.  At least my other haters here can put forth some shred of a competent counterpoint/make their case in a respectable manner.

If you think so, more power to you.  you said that clunkers were okay if we have the same postseason success as Buzz.  We have.  Your argument just fell apart, your welcome.