Some ranked teams didn't dodge the upset

[GB Warrior]

You know who else has some rings laying around? The janitors at Gillette Stadium. Should the Browns look to hire those guys?

Duke was successful before his arrival as a player or coach, and they have continued to be successful after his departure. Wojo has obviously been a part of some very good teams, but until he takes the next step on his own as a head coach, I don't think you can really give him that kind of credit just for having been on the staff.

Well, yeah, but you forget how valuable those janitors were in the Patriots gameplans...

[Its DJOver]

You know who else has some rings laying around? The janitors at Gillette Stadium. Should the Browns look to hire those guys?

Duke was successful before his arrival as a player or coach, and they have continued to be successful after his departure. Wojo has obviously been a part of some very good teams, but until he takes the next step on his own as a head coach, I don't think you can really give him that kind of credit just for having been on the staff.

This still skirts around my point.  Many who are dissatisfied with Wojo's performance point out lack of postseason success, which is entirely fair.  What is unfair IMO is to compare 4 years of Wojo head coaching experience to 11 years of Buzz's head coaching experience.  In the 4 years that Wojo has been at MU, and Buzz has been at VT they have the same amount of NCAA wins, despite Buzz being a better coach.

[Loose Cannon]

Well, yeah, but you forget how valuable those janitors were in the Patriots gameplans...

Speaking of Janitors, anyone hear from Big Daddy?

[skianth16]

This still skirts around my point.  Many who are dissatisfied with Wojo's performance point out lack of postseason success, which is entirely fair.  What is unfair IMO is to compare 4 years of Wojo head coaching experience to 11 years of Buzz's head coaching experience.  In the 4 years that Wojo has been at MU, and Buzz has been at VT they have the same amount of NCAA wins, despite Buzz being a better coach.

I don't know that comparing MU's success with VT's success is fair either. We have a rich basketball tradition, huge budget, great facilities, strong fanbase, etc. VT's basketball tradition is notably less impressive, making it harder to build a respectable program. In the 20 years leading up to Buzz's arrival at VT, they had 2 tournament appearances. For Wojo, MU had 12 appearances and a few pretty impressive runs. VT had 3 guys go pro while MU had 14. So I think it's pretty fair to say that Wojo had a little better starting point program-wise than Buzz did.

Results-wise, Buzz may have not won any post season games, but he has 2 appearances to Wojo's one. That's definitely a better result, especially for a fanbase that hasn't seen back to back tournament appearances since the Reagan administration. The VT program has been better under Buzz than it has in decades, maybe even the best it's ever been. For Marquette under Wojo, we have seen a decline from recent history. A fanbase that saw 8 straight tournament appearances prior to Wojo's arrival has now only gotten 1 in 4 years.

What it all boils down to for me is this - We have a winning tradition in our program, and many fans want to maintain that. Frustration with "the process" and the time it's taking to rebuild makes sense when you look at our history. Personally, I don't care that Wojo has fewer years of head coaching experience under his belt. I don't view Marquette as a stepping stone program, so I don't expect coaches to have to cut their teeth here. I expect any Marquette coach to know how to win from Day 1. I assume several others here feel the same way.

Is it fair or logical to expect a postseason appearance every year, regardless of the coach? Probably not. But I can tell you that when Roy Williams and Coach K decide to hang it up, those fanbases won't want a newbie head coach that needs 5 years to figure it out. They're going to want to win from Day 1 too. I realize we're not a blue blood, but with the run we had since joining the Big East, I think we've seen that MU can and should be competing at the highest level each year.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Anyone comparing Wojo to buzz as a head  basketball coach is going to be disappointed at this point. Maybe he catches Buzz someday but not yet

[Its DJOver]

Skianth.  The first half of you post compares programs, not coaches, which is a different conversation IMO.

The second half brings up an interesting point.  It is our right and our jobs as fans to be greedy.  We are currently not getting consistent bids, so the question is whether or not we can.  If we were getting bids but no wins, the demand would turn to can we get a NCAA win.  If we were getting bids and occasional wins, the demand would turn to can we get to the second weekend (and so on and so forth).  As fans, we are never content unless we are consistently competing for titles, and that perfectly okay.  From a fans perspective. 

Fans will not be deciding K or Roy's replacement, AD's and Presidents will be, and while their interests certainly have a decent amount of overlap with the fans, they also have other sets of interests, as well as (usually) more patience.  Cases where administrators have similar interests to fans are Texas and Pitt.  Barnes made the tourney 16 out of 17 years, but the administration listened to the increasingly greedy fans and parted ways.  They haven't won a tourney game since.  Dixon had incredible regular season success, but didn't have a great track record in the tourney.  Just look at where Pitt has gone since he left.  Now, Wojo has a long way to go to replicate either Barnes or Dixon, but the point remains that fans will (almost) never be content, which will always lead to complaining.  I would hope that AD's at both Duke and UNC would tolerate a couple less than stellar seasons with whomever replaces their respective HOFers.

[Galway Eagle]

I don't know that comparing MU's success with VT's success is fair either. We have a rich basketball tradition, huge budget, great facilities, strong fanbase, etc. VT's basketball tradition is notably less impressive, making it harder to build a respectable program. In the 20 years leading up to Buzz's arrival at VT, they had 2 tournament appearances. For Wojo, MU had 12 appearances and a few pretty impressive runs. VT had 3 guys go pro while MU had 14. So I think it's pretty fair to say that Wojo had a little better starting point program-wise than Buzz did.

Results-wise, Buzz may have not won any post season games, but he has 2 appearances to Wojo's one. That's definitely a better result, especially for a fanbase that hasn't seen back to back tournament appearances since the Reagan administration. The VT program has been better under Buzz than it has in decades, maybe even the best it's ever been. For Marquette under Wojo, we have seen a decline from recent history. A fanbase that saw 8 straight tournament appearances prior to Wojo's arrival has now only gotten 1 in 4 years.

It depends on if kids these days are buying into a program tradition or what a coach has done. Personally I'd think that tradition has some merit but if wojo's in home visit was followed by buzz or crean walking in and saying "yeah but I'm actually responsible for all that success he was talking about" that'd be hard to compete against.

You're right 2 > 1 and Buzz has had better results. What I have found intriguing is that people here are acting like it is heads and shoulders above Wojo.
Wojo is 75-60 at MU
Buzz is 78-60 at VT
This should show you that some of the results are either perception "ACC is better than the BE deserving more bids" or scheduling. 3 wins in 4.10 seasons is not enough to say that Buzz is blowing Wojo out of the water as some seem to perceive.

Finally, your point that prior to Wojo we had enjoyed 8 straight appearances ignores Buzz's final season. I believe that we as a fanbase have subconsciously lumped that season in with all the frustrations aimed at the slow Wojo rebuild and I've seen it more than a few times on here.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

It depends on if kids these days are buying into a program tradition or what a coach has done. Personally I'd think that tradition has some merit but if wojo's in home visit was followed by buzz or crean walking in and saying "yeah but I'm actually responsible for all that success he was talking about" that'd be hard to compete against.

You're right 2 > 1 and Buzz has had better results. What I have found intriguing is that people here are acting like it is heads and shoulders above Wojo.
Wojo is 75-60 at MU
Buzz is 78-60 at VT
This should show you that some of the results are either perception "ACC is better than the BE deserving more bids" or scheduling. 3 wins in 4.10 seasons is not enough to say that Buzz is blowing Wojo out of the water as some seem to perceive.

Finally, your point that prior to Wojo we had enjoyed 8 straight appearances ignores Buzz's final season. I believe that we as a fanbase have subconsciously lumped that season in with all the frustrations aimed at the slow Wojo rebuild and I've seen it more than a few times on here.

I think its moreso based on tourney bids.  What does Buzz have at VT - 3?

[BM1090]

I think its moreso based on tourney bids.  What does Buzz have at VT - 3?

2. The past 2 years. It will be 3 this year.

[barfolomew]

Cupboard

After fighting my way through several waves of ninjas, lasers, sharks, laser sharks, and hold music, I finally made it through the bunker, bruised and bloodied.

I opened the server room door, bat in hand (all ammo was spent), to find a laughing, coke-addled Ron Paul shooting me in the nuts with a taser.

When I came to, I was on the bathroom floor of Arby's in a puddle of my own urine.
At least I think it was mine.

Topper 1, Barf 0.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

2. The past 2 years. It will be 3 this year.

Yah, definitely not as lopsided as I would have thought.

I just think some of it is grass is greener mentality.  And obviously Buzz did very well here, so people inherently like him. 

[Floorslapper]

It depends on if kids these days are buying into a program tradition or what a coach has done. Personally I'd think that tradition has some merit but if wojo's in home visit was followed by buzz or crean walking in and saying "yeah but I'm actually responsible for all that success he was talking about" that'd be hard to compete against.

You're right 2 > 1 and Buzz has had better results. What I have found intriguing is that people here are acting like it is heads and shoulders above Wojo.
Wojo is 75-60 at MU
Buzz is 78-60 at VT
This should show you that some of the results are either perception "ACC is better than the BE deserving more bids" or scheduling. 3 wins in 4.10 seasons is not enough to say that Buzz is blowing Wojo out of the water as some seem to perceive.

Finally, your point that prior to Wojo we had enjoyed 8 straight appearances ignores Buzz's final season. I believe that we as a fanbase have subconsciously lumped that season in with all the frustrations aimed at the slow Wojo rebuild and I've seen it more than a few times on here.

Some nice analysis and it is interesting to see the side by side of Buzz at VaTech and Wojo at MU.  However, the relevant data point (that matters) is:

Buzz at MU and Wojo at MU. 

Not much sense in comparing apples to oranges when you have an apples to apples comparison point.

Buzz is a better coach than Wojo.  Probably time to just acknowledge as much and the topic can die.  Unfortunately the Pilarz/Williams debacle ran off the best coach we had since Al.  Tough shoes to fill...so far Wojo hasn't been up to the task, but he does fight and compete.   

[Galway Eagle]

Some nice analysis and it is interesting to see the side by side of Buzz at VaTech and Wojo at MU.  However, the relevant data point (that matters) is:

Buzz at MU and Wojo at MU. 

Not much sense in comparing apples to oranges when you have an apples to apples comparison point.

Buzz is a better coach than Wojo.  Probably time to just acknowledge as much and the topic can die.  Unfortunately the Pilarz/Williams debacle ran off the best coach we had since Al.  Tough shoes to fill...so far Wojo hasn't been up to the task, but he does fight and compete.   

Except it's not apples to apples, Buzz was here for a year prior to build relationships, he inherited 4 of the greatest players MU has had, certainly all top 15 since Al. He was in a conference that did not have question marks and the media slamming it, he was coming off three NCAA appearances and a not too distant final four.

Buzz was the better coach (not the first time I have said this) but Buzz had two gang rapes he potentially helped to cover up and in the least did some extremely sketchy story control for the offenders, multiple assaults, a couple minor recruiting violations, and a brawl at a club, plus how many undisclosed suspensions? I do not miss the constant headlines in the news about MU's basketball team and think there is a happy medium where you can win without them, but I don't think Buzz knows how.

[GGGG]

Except it's not apples to apples, Buzz was here for a year prior to build relationships, he inherited 4 of the greatest players MU has had, certainly all top 15 since Al. He was in a conference that did not have question marks and the media slamming it, he was coming off three NCAA appearances and a not too distant final four.

Buzz was the better coach (not the first time I have said this) but Buzz had two gang rapes he helped to cover up, multiple assaults, a couple minor recruiting violations, and a brawl at a club, plus how many undisclosed suspensions? I do not miss the constant headlines in the news about MU's basketball team and think there is a happy medium where you can win without them, but I don't think Buzz knows how.

Let's be a little more careful with your words here. 

[Galway Eagle]

Let's be a little more careful with your words here.

nm not getting into this with you but I stand by it

[GGGG]

nm

[Galway Eagle]

You in no way offended me.  I have heard multiple stories related to the topic.  You are making accusations that may not reflect the reality of what occurred or Buzz's role.

could you edit the post you quoted? It's not my place to go into this. 


But I believe calling a meeting to "get a story straight", while not necessarily a cover up to MSU levels, certainly is sketchy at the least and a cover up at most.

[GGGG]

When you edit your post, I will edit my quote.

And yeah it is very obvious Buzz mishandled it.  He was a Title IX disaster.  But to say he "covered it up" is a little much.

[Galway Eagle]

When you edit your post, I will edit my quote.

And yeah it is very obvious Buzz mishandled it.  He was a Title IX disaster.  But to say he "covered it up" is a little much.

I did? I changed it to

nm not getting into this with you but I stand by it

I think it's fair to request any source, especially in this case isn't brought up.

[GGGG]

I meant your original accusation, but I will edit that one as well.

[skianth16]

Skianth.  The first half of you post compares programs, not coaches, which is a different conversation IMO.

You're right 2 > 1 and Buzz has had better results. What I have found intriguing is that people here are acting like it is heads and shoulders above Wojo.
Wojo is 75-60 at MU
Buzz is 78-60 at VT
This should show you that some of the results are either perception "ACC is better than the BE deserving more bids" or scheduling. 3 wins in 4.10 seasons is not enough to say that Buzz is blowing Wojo out of the water as some seem to perceive.

The reason I brought up the comparison of the programs is that it plays a big role in the way the wins and losses are weighed. Buzz getting VT 3 consecutive 20-win seasons was a big deal because it hadn't happened it a long time there. He was able to do something that others had tried to do but weren't able to accomplish.

I think most people would agree that earning an at-large bid or getting 20+ wins at Chicago State would be more challenging, definitely more surprising, than doing it at Kentucky. And that's why I think the program comparisons matter.

[Its DJOver]

The reason I brought up the comparison of the programs is that it plays a big role in the way the wins and losses are weighed. Buzz getting VT 3 consecutive 20-win seasons was a big deal because it hadn't happened it a long time there. He was able to do something that others had tried to do but weren't able to accomplish.

I think most people would agree that earning an at-large bid or getting 20+ wins at Chicago State would be more challenging, definitely more surprising, than doing it at Kentucky. And that's why I think the program comparisons matter.

The difference is that MU to VT is still P5 to P5.  Chi St to UK is mid major to blue blood.  You also should consider the second half of my post.  20 wins for VT is a big accomplishment, but if Buzz does not translate that into NCAA wins, even if he continues to get 20+ wins per season, fans will start to grumble, and you know what happens when you mess with happy.

[skianth16]

The difference is that MU to VT is still P5 to P5.  Chi St to UK is mid major to blue blood.  You also should consider the second half of my post.  20 wins for VT is a big accomplishment, but if Buzz does not translate that into NCAA wins, even if he continues to get 20+ wins per season, fans will start to grumble, and you know what happens when you mess with happy.

OK fine, then change my Chicago State comparison to Depaul. The concept remains the same. (Side note - I tried to think of another school in addition to Depaul in a major conference that might have as bad a track record as VT, and I'm not sure if there is one. VT might have one of the worst basketball traditions of any power conference schools)

And while I agree that Buzz will need to turn the appearances into wins, I doubt that expectations will have changed for VT fans so quickly. There's still a honeymoon phase effect for a guy that was able to turn the program around in 2-3 years. When the time comes for demanding postseason wins, he has a resume that shows he can. I would be willing to be that he'll deliver a tournament win this year.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

After fighting my way through several waves of ninjas, lasers, sharks, laser sharks, and hold music, I finally made it through the bunker, bruised and bloodied.

I opened the server room door, bat in hand (all ammo was spent), to find a laughing, coke-addled Ron Paul shooting me in the nuts with a taser.

When I came to, I was on the bathroom floor of Arby's in a puddle of my own urine.
At least I think it was mine.

Topper 1, Barf 0.

This post was a diamond in a steaming pile of shiit. Well done sir

[Its DJOver]

OK fine, then change my Chicago State comparison to Depaul. The concept remains the same. (Side note - I tried to think of another school in addition to Depaul in a major conference that might have as bad a track record as VT, and I'm not sure if there is one. VT might have one of the worst basketball traditions of any power conference schools)

And while I agree that Buzz will need to turn the appearances into wins, I doubt that expectations will have changed for VT fans so quickly. There's still a honeymoon phase effect for a guy that was able to turn the program around in 2-3 years. When the time comes for demanding postseason wins, he has a resume that shows he can. I would be willing to be that he'll deliver a tournament win this year.

I guess it just depends on your definition of quickly in this scenario.  If he gets to a point where he's 0-3, or 0-4, I think the fanbase will start to get restless.

As to your side note, as much of a dumpster fire that DePaul has been for decades now, their "tradition" is stronger than VT.  Overall, programs with worse history, I would go with Nebraska, Northwestern, and Rutgers.