Year 2 (Archie), Year 5 Wojo

[TedBaxter]

I am not sure these are fair comparisons. Some of these programs do not have the inherent advantages (fan base,  facilities, budget, etc,) that Marquette has. If you compare similar programs Wojo has been at best below average thus far.

Hoping it turns around fast but I must admit my patience will be gone by end of season.

This is where I'm at.

[Herman Cain]

I can't speak for others, but in my evaluation, we have enough evidence to say that Wojo is a "C-level" coach. I believe this because based on the roster assembled at the start of each season, the team has pretty much performed to expectation. I could hear an argument for a slight underachievement in year two and an argument for a slight overachievment in year three. He doesn't make a team better than the sum of its parts and he doesn't make the team worse than the sum of its parts.

Now this can be okay as long as you are bringing in quality rosters. A C coach with an A+ roster is going to have a pretty good season. I'd argue Sean Miller has been doing that for years at Arizona (setting aside the alleged scandals).

Now this doesn't mean a coach will stay at the same level forever. Coaches develop and they can regress. This is the best roster Wojo has assembled to date. If he performs to expectations (top 30ish type team) his seat will be cool and stay cool until he either regresses or stops bringing in talented rosters (2020 class will be key). If he regresses the seat will start to warm pretty quickly. If he develops than who cares? We'll be too busy celebrating.

I think your assessment of Wojo is accurate.

When I look back at some of the programs I followed historically, Michigan State under Jim Heathcoate comes to mind. Heathcoate was not a good recruiter but he had a very good reputation for improving the players he got and being a very solid game coach. So he was more of an A coach with C rosters .  His performance was very up and down though because of recruiting. However given that he was at a school like Michigan State there was always the potential for a 4 star recruit to show up on his door step through in state loyalty and when he got one he made the most of it. Coach Izzo came in and was able to establish a more solid and consistent recruiting and built off the player development and coaching tradition that Heathcoate had and took that program to a much higher level.

My sense is we are going to see Wojo and staff to migrate the program toward recruiting more pogo stick ,quick athletic and strong neck types.  When you look at these mid level Power 5 football type schools they tend to have 5 or 6 players of that type on the roster . Right now we only have a couple. We are getting by with superior shooting but I think that only goes so far.  I think we will see more kids like Dexter coming on board. A kid with an A/ A- level of athleticism who can be coached up.  MU can be attractive to those kind of kids. Buzz understood that and that is why I think he was able to have the kind of success at MU that he had.

[NickelDimer]

I am not sure these are fair comparisons. Some of these programs do not have the inherent advantages (fan base,  facilities, budget, etc,) that Marquette has. If you compare similar programs Wojo has been at best below average thus far.

Hoping it turns around fast but I must admit my patience will be gone by end of season.

100%. Having our program as a middle of the road team doesn't make him middle of the road, it makes him below average which is a very fair assessment of his coaching

[Its DJOver]

100%. Having our program as a middle of the road team doesn't make him middle of the road, it makes him below average which is a very fair assessment of his coaching

You must think that Willard, McDermit, and Ewing are absolute trash then, because Wojo has beaten them 8 times in a row.

[NickelDimer]

You must think that Willard, McDermit, and Ewing are absolute trash then, because Wojo has beaten them 8 times in a row.

I couldn't care less about the 3 of them or their programs. And that certainly doesn't change my assessment of Wojo being a below average coach

[Its DJOver]

I couldn't care less about the 3 of them or their programs. And that certainly doesn't change my assessment of Wojo being a below average coach

Well lets do the math.  If Wojo is better than Willard, Ewing, and McDermott, which head to head is clearly in favor of Wojo.  Whoever is at DePaul is automatically last.  Wojo has split with Mullin, but is better IMO, due to overall record as well as (limited), but better postseason success.  Wojo is worse than Wright and Cooley, and Jordan and Steele are question marks.  Even if Jordan and Steele end up ahead of Wojo, that would put Wojo in the top half of the conference, which by definition is above average.  Unless you want to argue that the conference as a whole is below average, which is another losing fight IMO.

[Newsdreams]

I think your assessment of Wojo is accurate.

When I look back at some of the programs I followed historically, Michigan State under Jim Heathcoate comes to mind. Heathcoate was not a good recruiter but he had a very good reputation for improving the players he got and being a very solid game coach. So he was more of an A coach with C rosters .  His performance was very up and down though because of recruiting. However given that he was at a school like Michigan State there was always the potential for a 4 star recruit to show up on his door step through in state loyalty and when he got one he made the most of it. Coach Izzo came in and was able to establish a more solid and consistent recruiting and built off the player development and coaching tradition that Heathcoate had and took that program to a much higher level.

My sense is we are going to see Wojo and staff to migrate the program toward recruiting more pogo stick and quick athletic types.  When you look at these mid level Power 5 football type schools they tend to have 5 or 6 players of that type on the roster . Right now we only have a couple. We are getting by with superior shooting but I think that only goes so far.  I think we will see more kids like Dexter coming on board. A kid with an A/ A- level of athleticism who can be coached up.  MU can be attractive to those kind of kids. Buzz understood that and that is why I think he was able to have the kind of success at MU that he had.

Disappointed no analysis about necks

[Herman Cain]

Disappointed no analysis about necks

Good catch. Noted and change made.

[tower912]

Well...take a look at the daily post averages for TAMU, Tower, MU 82 - they are some of the most prolific posters here. Sultan, Wades and Brew also have a long-standing track record of
Active contribution here. They've all been largely pro-Wojo the past 4 years...

Nothing wrong with that, but, the original point made does have validity.

Bump.

[Galway Eagle]

Considering we've yet to win 3 consecutive Big East regular season games in the Wojo era, I'm not too worried about the above.

But, should we achieve that in the weak Big East this year, and we make a return to the Top 25, I'll be sure to give Wojo props and his due.

Did he give the props and due?

[muwarrior69]

Bump.

C'mon tower; Wojo crapped his pants in that game. Wojo has since been potty trained.

[rocket surgeon]

"I can't speak for others, but in my evaluation, we have enough evidence to say that Wojo is a "C-level" coach. "


  This is why heart cannot be evaluated.  My first advisor at MU told me that I wasn't going to get into dental school and should think of some other profession....33 years later...either the guy was a lazy knob or the best motivational speaker you'll ever find, but I immediately fired him and found a different advisor

[LloydsLegs]

Bump.

An epic 4 letter takedown. 

[tower912]

An epic 4 letter takedown.

And it wasn't even a naughty 4 letter word.   

[Bocephys]

"I can't speak for others, but in my evaluation, we have enough evidence to say that Wojo is a "C-level" coach. "


  This is why heart cannot be evaluated.  My first advisor at MU told me that I wasn't going to get into dental school and should think of some other profession....33 years later...either the guy was a lazy knob or the best motivational speaker you'll ever find, but I immediately fired him and found a different advisor

Congrats on applying to dental school for 32 straight years and finally breaking through!

[fjm]

Holy crap. I just re read the first page of this thread. Amazing.

[MUEng92]

Holy crap. I just re read the first page of this thread. Amazing.

I was so happy not to see the little "face on the papers icon" On this thread title, meaning I hadn't posted anything in this one.  I know I've been mad after games over the last few years but I don't recall ever calling for Wojo's job.

A modern take on Twain's quote, "It's better to not post and appear stupid than to post and remove all doubt for everyone to see into eternity"

[rocket surgeon]

Congrats on applying to dental school for 32 straight years and finally breaking through!

Swing and a miss bo, but I know you are just having a little fun

                    Love, francis 😉

[Avenue Commons]

Considering we've yet to win 3 consecutive Big East regular season games in the Wojo era, I'm not too worried about the above.

But, should we achieve that in the weak Big East this year, and we make a return to the Top 25, I'll be sure to give Wojo props and his due.

So what is this Big East win streak and a Top 10 ranking good for? Some props and his due seems a little light. Being this wrong I think calls for a donation in Wojo's name to the Blue & Gold Fund!

[LoudMouth]

This is great stuff! They keep getting better and better. Looks like everyone who has seen enough to judge might need some correcting of their prescription numbers 

[MU82]

Spectacular bump, tower.

What a fun read.

I especially like the certainty of those who proclaimed Wojo an absolute bust, along with the conjecture about who should replace him.

Now, it's still too early to say he's an enormous success; the story is still being written. But those who declared with such certainty that he's a bad coach who has to go ... wowie wow wow!

[NorthernDancerColt]

Bump.

The Congressional Record is a fine publication.

[wadesworld]

I certainly hope we don't have to regret all these bumps in a few hours after being boatraced at Butler.

[jsglow]

Spectacular bump, tower.

What a fun read.

I especially like the certainty of those who proclaimed Wojo an absolute bust, along with the conjecture about who should replace him.

Now, it's still too early to say he's an enormous success; the story is still being written. But those who declared with such certainty that he's a bad coach who has to go ... wowie wow wow!

I've gotta find a poster who had Wojo fired in November and anointed the Duke coach in waiting 8 weeks later!

[NorthernDancerColt]

Spectacular bump, tower.

What a fun read.

I especially like the certainty of those who proclaimed Wojo an absolute bust, along with the conjecture about who should replace him.

Now, it's still too early to say he's an enormous success; the story is still being written. But those who declared with such certainty that he's a bad coach who has to go ... wowie wow wow!

I am feeling pretty good about what I wrote in this thread. Proud to have voted against the war in Wojanistan.

Have crapped the bed on a few posts, so I will be humble going forward.