Job offers

[theBabyDavid]

Which is why as an employee you shouldn't bother to give two-weeks notice.  They will not return the favor.  When you want to leave, leave. 

And disagree on using leverage for a raise.  The only way to get what you are worth is to leave for somewhere else, or leverage an offer for an internal raise.

The key is always be willing to leave, because the answer may be, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.   

I know of a colleague who leverages for a raise every year.  The average raise for his peers is around inflation, his is double digits, because he is irreplaceable, and other people want him.

There are many variables that go into the advisability of trying to leverage an outside offer into an internal raise/promotion. Market environment, industry, role, culture, cost of churn, etc...

As a rule, if you are involved in M&A work you need to go in and inform your boss that you are leaving. Trying to get a better deal is considered poor form.

I was in Strat Planning with PepsiCo when I was head hunted away by GE. Though based in Hong Kong I had to go to CT for the final interviews. I left Fairfield with an offer.

I went back to Asia through Plano where I told the head of Planning I was leaving. Her first question was, "what are they giving you?" She told me it was a good offer and that I was at least a year away from that at PepsiCo. She then asked if I had packed up my office in HK. And that was it.

We kept in touch over the years, she ended up as the CIO of PepsiCo then went to be the CFO of Yale University. She has remained a friend and mentor to this day.

The point is: if you work in a strategic role at an enterprise they won't counter an outside offer. Be professional and don't burn bridges. The head of planning respected the work I did at PepsiCo but thought my decision to take on the role GE offered was a good one for me and my family. She also knew that the PepsiCo recruiting machine was hauling in top MBAs for precisely this circumstance so there was minimal cost impact to the organization.

Perhaps, in a smaller company or if one has unusually unique skills, it is possible to play the match this game. But larger companies know that talent acquisition is a cost of doing business. We are doing infrastructure work in Alaska and Canada for off-grid systems. In a mining camp in Canada a geologist played this game and was given a raise. But out of earshot the MD of the mining enetrprise was already plotting a revenge move.

One can try to get raises/promotions in this way but, as you say, be prepared to leave because that might be the answer you get.   

[cheebs09]

Maybe I’m naive, but I think the company would appreciate the heads up. At least now they are in a position to influence your decision if they want to keep you. If you came to them with your two week notice, it’s possible they’d be upset that they didn’t get a chance to make their case.

The key would be that you aren’t doing this consistently, and it’s  just a bluff to get more money. I think then it may negatively impact you. It sounds like you’re willing to go, but enjoy your current employer enough that they could still win you back.

[GGGG]

There are many variables that go into the advisability of trying to leverage an outside offer into an internal raise/promotion. Market environment, industry, role, culture, cost of churn, etc...

As a rule, if you are involved in M&A work you need to go in and inform your boss that you are leaving. Trying to get a better deal is considered poor form.

I was in Strat Planning with PepsiCo when I was head hunted away by GE. Though based in Hong Kong I had to go to CT for the final interviews. I left Fairfield with an offer.

I went back to Asia through Plano where I told the head of Planning I was leaving. Her first question was, "what are they giving you?" She told me it was a good offer and that I was at least a year away from that at PepsiCo. She then asked if I had packed up my office in HK. And that was it.

We kept in touch over the years, she ended up as the CIO of PepsiCo then went to be the CFO of Yale University. She has remained a friend and mentor to this day.

The point is: if you work in a strategic role at an enterprise they won't counter an outside offer. Be professional and don't burn bridges. The head of planning respected the work I did at PepsiCo but thought my decision to take on the role GE offered was a good one for me and my family. She also knew that the PepsiCo recruiting machine was hauling in top MBAs for precisely this circumstance so there was minimal cost impact to the organization.

Perhaps, in a smaller company or if one has unusually unique skills, it is possible to play the match this game. But larger companies know that talent acquisition is a cost of doing business. We are doing infrastructure work in Alaska and Canada for off-grid systems. In a mining camp in Canada a geologist played this game and was given a raise. But out of earshot the MD of the mining enetrprise was already plotting a revenge move.

One can try to get raises/promotions in this way but, as you say, be prepared to leave because that might be the answer you get.   

I agree with you on a lot of this.  I don't think the chances are usually likely that you will get a raise / promotion from your old firm, but it doesn't hurt to ask if phrased the right way.  And yes, you should always be prepared to leave.  And I do think this is more common at a smaller firm where the talent acquisition might be more expensive and difficult.

And yeah, you should always give notice.  At least two weeks.  If the company wants to shorten it, but still pay you, let them do that.

[theBabyDavid]

I was thinking about my former boss at PepsiCo and reflecting on what an outstanding leader she is.

One of my colleagues, Jim, was based with the Plano Planning Team. In his annual review, PepsiCo always asks for input on next role, he wondered about getting to the Denver area so his wife could be closer to her family.

She told him that putting an Ivy MBA at a bottling plant or salty snack facility was a waste of talent; there was simply nothing in that area commensurate with his skills. In fact the bench planning had him heading to either London or Purchase, NY.

But what she did next was remarkable. She picked up the phone and called a classmate from Cornell who was the CFO of Coors. She personally vouched for Jim and offered to pay his relo from TX to CO. Within a month he was headed to Denver to work for Coors.

That is inspired leadership.     

[spartan3186]

A core lesson learned at HBS: Never, ever leverage an offer from another firm against your current employer. If you are inclined to go, which is the case since you took the outside interview, then go (but do so gracefully.)

I think some of this might be related to role, however.

I worked in Strat Planning and did M&A at both PepsiCo and GE. In such roles one has access to significant corporate intel. At PepsiCo, if you work in planning, you are escorted out of the building. There is no two weeks' notice. Security packs your things up and has them sent to your residence.

Trying to leverage an outside offer against your current employer will never end well. It might get you a raise today but your long-term prospects will be curtailed dramatically.

I agree with pretty much all of this. I've sat in meetings where people who leveraged an offer was moved out of the "High Potential" pile with no change to job performance. The company gave them more money to fill a short term need, but was already making plans to move on.

[theBabyDavid]

I agree with you on a lot of this.  I don't think the chances are usually likely that you will get a raise / promotion from your old firm, but it doesn't hurt to ask if phrased the right way.  And yes, you should always be prepared to leave.  And I do think this is more common at a smaller firm where the talent acquisition might be more expensive and difficult.

And yeah, you should always give notice.  At least two weeks.  If the company wants to shorten it, but still pay you, let them do that.

I have a buddy from my F 16 days who got an MBA from UVA and worked for Georgia-Pacific where he was moving fast.

He is black, an Air Force Academy grad fighter pilot with an MBA from Darden so he was bombarded with calls from Spencer Stuart, Korn Ferry, et al...

He rarely investigated offers but was recruited by Staples at the time of the proposed merger with Office Depot. It was a great role but he went back to Georgia-Pacific for a counter.

They did counter but his career decelerated noticeably. He ended up leaving for Whirlpool 4 years later. When he told G-P he was leaving they made his departure immediate.

Is his experience indicative? I'm not sure but it is a definite risk with getting a counter. He went from HiPo to also ran pretty quickly.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

I have a buddy from my F 16 days who got an MBA from UVA and worked for Georgia-Pacific where he was moving fast.

He is black, an Air Force Academy grad fighter pilot with an MBA from Darden so he was bombarded with calls from Spencer Stuart, Korn Ferry, et al...

He rarely investigated offers but was recruited by Staples at the time of the proposed merger with Office Depot. It was a great role but he went back to Georgia-Pacific for a counter.

They did counter but his career decelerated noticeably. He ended up leaving for Whirlpool 4 years later. When he told G-P he was leaving they made his departure immediate.

Is his experience indicative? I'm not sure but it is a definite risk with getting a counter. He went from HiPo to also ran pretty quickly.

I find this very disingenuous on the part of the company. Why counter at all if you are going to stall a person's career? All parties are better served to just move on.

Companies have setup a Catch 22 scenario for workers. To get ahead,  the worker needs to be ready to job hop but not too much.  Negotiating raises beyond cost of living basically require an outside offer.  But that leads to a showdown: worker must be prepared leave, even if they like where they work, or they could be countered with the possibility of petty revenge and a lack of career advancement if they stay.

My advice: talk with your current employer about career advancement and growth in addition to salary and benefits.  If there is no chance to advance due to this negotiation,  move on. 

Another popular move is to leave for a new job and reapply at old company in a few years.  Make sure to climb the career ladder with each move.

[forgetful]

I have a buddy from my F 16 days who got an MBA from UVA and worked for Georgia-Pacific where he was moving fast.

He is black, an Air Force Academy grad fighter pilot with an MBA from Darden so he was bombarded with calls from Spencer Stuart, Korn Ferry, et al...

He rarely investigated offers but was recruited by Staples at the time of the proposed merger with Office Depot. It was a great role but he went back to Georgia-Pacific for a counter.

They did counter but his career decelerated noticeably. He ended up leaving for Whirlpool 4 years later. When he told G-P he was leaving they made his departure immediate.

Is his experience indicative? I'm not sure but it is a definite risk with getting a counter. He went from HiPo to also ran pretty quickly.

Purely anecdotal, can easily come up with counter arguments of the opposite.

Fact of the matter is that any properly run company wants to promote the best candidates for any open position.  Restricting advancement of a qualified candidate because of reporting a offer from a competitor for a possible counter, runs contrary to the fundamental goals of an organization.  If that is how a company is run, you should bolt as soon as possible.

If you are important to the company, they'll fight to keep you, if you are just another Joe, they will let you go.  More often than not, the reason people quit climbing in a company (or are passed over for a promotion) is simply a function of them not meeting the qualifications for the promotion, and/or declining performance.  In the latter, it is often because people become content and quit giving the extra mile to win an advancement.

In that instance it is in the best interest of the employee to look for advancement elsewhere, and the company will be happy to let you go. 

Also, there is an advantage of poaching a competitor to replace a current employee.  It gives the new company access to any and all knowledge you have.  That makes it easier in many cases for a competitor to offer a more enticing offer.

[Jay Bee]

How much dew u guYz make? $$$$

[theBabyDavid]

How much dew u guYz make? $$$$

Let me answer for everyone: Not enough

[forgetful]

Let me answer for everyone: Not enough

Agreed, I should make way more than that Keefe guy, and I don't. (Is teal needed?)

[theBabyDavid]

Agreed, I should make way more than that Keefe guy, and I don't. (Is teal needed?)

Let me give you one piece of advice: If you want to make real money you need to be in the technical vanguard of one of two industries - Healthcare and Energy.

[warriorchick]

Let me give you one piece of advice: If you want to make real money you need to be in the technical vanguard of one of two industries - Healthcare and Energy.

I am more than satisfied with my fake money.

[theBabyDavid]

I am more than satisfied with my fake money.

I have yet to meet the man who feels he is overpaid

[warriorchick]

I have yet to meet the man who feels he is overpaid

Oh, I wouldn't mind more.  I just don't need any of Keefe's real money.

[Babybluejeans]

Let me give you one piece of advice: If you want to make real money you need to be in the technical vanguard of one of two industries - Healthcare and Energy.

I remember each time I visited my family in Quogue, the folks I conferenced with at parties liked to talk about where the "real money" was. What a strange phrase. I've found its use carries with it comical whiffs of Gatsby-level insecurity from the declarant.

Though, owning GE stock has been one way to relieve oneself of that conversation.

[GooooMarquette]

Let me answer for everyone: Not enough

Not true. I am totally fine with what I make.

Money is important for survival and, to a point, the ability to be happy. But beyond that point, studies have actually shown decreases in measures of happiness and well-being. The "point" varies depending on where people live, but numbers in the range of $75,000/year are commonly cited by economists and mental health experts.

Here's a recent study out of Purdue and UVa:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0277-0

[4everwarriors]

 Anywon macon any reel scratch ain't fookin' da dey awey on a board like dis, aina?

[JWags85]

I find this very disingenuous on the part of the company. Why counter at all if you are going to stall a person's career? All parties are better served to just move on.

I see it both ways.  Ive advocated strongly here against blind loyalty and needing to have a willingness to look out for one's self interest and family.  But at the same time, as a company, when you plan long term, provided you don't have a never ending supply of talent, you tend to favor those you can count on and build long term plans around.  Its worth it in the short term to keep the employee at a modest raise compared to the cost and time needed to find and train a replacement.  But its almost human nature to trend towards a peer who hasn't shown that leveraging move against you.  Right or wrong.  Don't be afraid to move for the $$, but then don't be offended when you're treated as a financial line item as opposed to a unique skill set.  But, YMMV.

I remember each time I visited my family in Quogue, the folks I conferenced with at parties liked to talk about where the "real money" was. What a strange phrase. I've found its use carries with it comical whiffs of Gatsby-level insecurity from the declarant.

Though, owning GE stock has been one way to relieve oneself of that conversation.

It can also be used when evaluating size of prize for a company or venture.  Is the company going to compete in a crowded market place for a small piece or find much greater opportunity and potential profit in areas where Keefe referenced.  When looking at cyclical trends and areas with constant need for technological growth, he's not wrong.  And clearly you've never been around those flashy types who lease a luxury car, dress in designer labels, but take out loans to go on vacation or can't afford downpayments.  There is no security to deeming that fake money versus the "real money" that can afford those things without reckless spending or potential duress.  But sweet GE burn 

Not true. I am totally fine with what I make.

Money is important for survival and, to a point, the ability to be happy. But beyond that point, studies have actually shown decreases in measures of happiness and well-being. The "point" varies depending on where people live, but numbers in the range of $75,000/year are commonly cited by economists and mental health experts.

Ive always found that figure and studies to be deceiving cause its often blending many different international geographies and social strata.  Also not factoring in children, health, etc..  I think Ive seen addendums that say the total can be $20-30K higher when looking at further life planning and goals.  I can totally buy the idea that there is a decreasing marginal benefit as more money is made, and even buy that it can decrease sharply, but $75K is so often flaunted in a way of "you're making more than that, so your complaints are superficial".  I can say that living in multiple metro areas of the Midwest, my quality of life/happiness markedly improved based that delineation point.  And thats as a bachelor.

Everyone has different physical and tangible wants and needs, to try and bucket them or shame them for not aligning with your own world view is problematic and a waste of time in my opinion.

[Benny B]

Anyone on Scoop with over 1,000 posts is clearly being overpaid. 

[GooooMarquette]

Ive always found that figure and studies to be deceiving cause its often blending many different international geographies and social strata.  Also not factoring in children, health, etc..  I think Ive seen addendums that say the total can be $20-30K higher when looking at further life planning and goals.  I can totally buy the idea that there is a decreasing marginal benefit as more money is made, and even buy that it can decrease sharply, but $75K is so often flaunted in a way of "you're making more than that, so your complaints are superficial".  I can say that living in multiple metro areas of the Midwest, my quality of life/happiness markedly improved based that delineation point.  And thats as a bachelor.

Everyone has different physical and tangible wants and needs, to try and bucket them or shame them for not aligning with your own world view is problematic and a waste of time in my opinion.

Yes, the number itself is subject to many variables that no study can totally control. But authors are typically very direct about that. The consistent finding remains: beyond a point, more money doesn’t equal more happiness or a greater sense of well-being.

[Babybluejeans]

It can also be used when evaluating size of prize for a company or venture.  Is the company going to compete in a crowded market place for a small piece or find much greater opportunity and potential profit in areas where Keefe referenced.  When looking at cyclical trends and areas with constant need for technological growth, he's not wrong.

This is a lot of words. Most investors just call it upside. 

[JWags85]

This is a lot of words. Most investors just call it upside.

Ok, so if he said "thats where the real upside is", you'd have had no issue.  I was a trader for a number of years, I heard "thats where the real money is" as it pertained to trades or investments all the time.  Not just by greedy aristocrats twirling their mustaches and mocking the hired help.

Yes, the number itself is subject to many variables that no study can totally control. But authors are typically very direct about that. The consistent finding remains: beyond a point, more money doesn’t equal more happiness or a greater sense of well-being.

Right, and as I said, I totally agree.  Putting a number on it always seems silly cause it feels like often its used to marginalize or vilify greed when "science says this is all you need for happiness!"  Especially when its a relatively average number that is very commonly earned and exceeded.  But im sure thats a lot of personal experience biasing me.

[theBabyDavid]

I remember each time I visited my family in Quogue, the folks I conferenced with at parties liked to talk about where the "real money" was. What a strange phrase. I've found its use carries with it comical whiffs of Gatsby-level insecurity from the declarant.

Though, owning GE stock has been one way to relieve oneself of that conversation.

GE is getting beat up by the street but it is still a technical powerhouse. I know Flannery and have met Culp. And both have endorsed the projects we are partnered with GE on to change the face of clean, renewable energy. We are doing line stabilization in China, micro grids in the developing world, on-board hydrogen generation for a new series of lean burn recip engines, solar in SE Asia and the Middle East, and launching high temperature zero emission waste to energy systems that are putting an end to landfilling.

Here's the bottom line: our capital partners on these projects include the Carlyle Group, the Silk Road Fund, Man Group, HMI, and Landsdowne. These are sophisticated hedge fund operators who have placed large bets on these projects and GE's ability to pull them off through exquisite technology.

I am guessing these hedge fund managers know more about what GE is doing than a guy who spends way too much time shouting into the dark night of an insignificant outpost of the web's fringe? Perhaps the malodorous stench of Gatsby-level insecurity suggests you need to slap on some Old Spice?

[rocket surgeon]

  GE currently at $8 + and the "gurus" say "hold"...i bought in a little bit at $12, but still think GE is too big to fail.  are they unloading some of their dead weight and catching up to their legacy bennies enough yet to turn this ship around to jack's liking yet?  by the time this thing rates buy, it'll be too late for us "unwashed" enna so?