NBA Thread 2019-20

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

The (admittedly strong) argument is that he's leaving either way after next season, the Bucks might as well trade him to get something out of it.

If that's the case, yes then you trade him.  But 4ever is saying they should not sign him and trade him regardless.

[4everwarriors]

Sorry Nads, in the most complimentary way, Herro hoops like a brotha, hey?

[cheebs09]

Played hard. Too many dumb turnovers and not enough playmakers.

Felt like Wes should have come back earlier in the fourth.

[wadesworld]

Eric Bledsoe deciding that he’s going to jump the passing lane on about a 4 foot pass while the Bucks were down 4 with just under 2 minutes left, shot clock running down, Butler about to catch the ball facing away from the hoop, only to hack the hell out of him and send him to the free throw line was the most Eric Bledsoe big moment play I’ve ever seen.

If the Bucks had that defensive effort for games 1-3 they’d have been the team looking to close the series out tonight.

[Billy Hoyle]

He's a complementary player who can't put on team on his back and win a championship. Either bring in an alpha player to play with him or trade him. His value will never be greater. Middleton is not that player. Terrible decision to max him and who knows what Bledsoe actually contributes?

What is Middleton’s contract situation? Rumor picking up steam in Portland is McCollum for Middleton.

[MUfan12]

What is Middleton’s contract situation? Rumor picking up steam in Portland is McCollum for Middleton.

2020-21: $33,051,724
2021-22: $35,500,000
2022-23: $37,948,276
2023-24: $40,396,552

[wadesworld]

What is Middleton’s contract situation? Rumor picking up steam in Portland is McCollum for Middleton.

I’m not a huge fan of Middleton, but that’d be a horrible trade for the Bucks. Just a worse, smaller, less efficient version of Middleton.

[Skatastrophy]

Middleton was the highest effort scorer for the bucks. Wes played some great defense, totally stifled Jimmy.

Jimmy looked (and played) like he was hungover. So many passes at teammates feet in the 1st Q.

Herro plays like he's older than 20, that's for sure. It was good to see the Heat's 3 guard lineup some more, as well as seeing Spo run the bench for longer int he 4th Q last night.

I haven't watched the Bucks much unless they're playing the Heat, and the Heat have had the Bucks number all year.

[JWags85]

I’m not a huge fan of Middleton, but that’d be a horrible trade for the Bucks. Just a worse, smaller, less efficient version of Middleton.

Smaller I will give you. Otherwise, they literally have almost identical stats.

For their careers:

Middleton: 46%, 39% from 3, 52% eFG, 4.5 reb and 3 assists

McCollum: 45%, 40% from 3, 52% eFG, 4 reb and 4 assists

Would also be interesting cause McCollum could play that hybrid PG/SG role like Lillard does.  But that contract is an albatross so not sure why the Bucks would do it

[wadesworld]

Bush league stuff by Nick Nurse down the stretch of regulation.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Bush league stuff by Nick Nurse down the stretch of regulation.

How?

[ATL MU Warrior]

Bush league stuff by Nick Nurse down the stretch of regulation.

What?

[JWags85]

If he meant terrible coaching and play calling? I get it. The Raptors were awful the final 4 min. But if he means dirty or clownish, then I’m lost

[wadesworld]

https://youtu.be/Cs5RDq5h4-8

Total bush league garbage. There’s plenty of room to cheerlead your team without standing inches from the opposing player, and then essentially be on the court where only an offensive player would be when Theis has floated up the court a bit.

Even if Theis stayed in the corner and Tatum hit him with a pass, why is Nick Nurse breathing down his neck when there’s literally nobody on the sideline?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Oh.  No biggie for me. 

[Skatastrophy]

https://youtu.be/Cs5RDq5h4-8

Total bush league garbage. There’s plenty of room to cheerlead your team without standing inches from the opposing player, and then essentially be on the court where only an offensive player would be when Theis has floated up the court a bit.

Even if Theis stayed in the corner and Tatum hit him with a pass, why is Nick Nurse breathing down his neck when there’s literally nobody on the sideline?

Tatum disagrees - https://streamable.com/mj33qi

[TSmith34, Inc.]

2020-21: $33,051,724
2021-22: $35,500,000
2022-23: $37,948,276
2023-24: $40,396,552

Those numbers...just boggling. Nothing for or against Middleton, just that numbers like that are jaw dropping for a player that is good but not a superstar.

[wadesworld]

Tatum disagrees - https://streamable.com/mj33qi

Of course Tatum’s not going to say “Nick Nurse caused us a turnover with under a minute left in a tie game.” But there is a 0.00% chance that Jason Tatum throws away a pass if Nick Nurse is not standing on the court. And with no fans sitting court side and the bench being 10 feet off the sideline, there’s no reason for Nick Nurse to be standing on the court. If he wants to stand on the court he should be doing it up near half court like all the other coaches, not inserting himself into the game, literally.

[MUfan12]

Those numbers...just boggling. Nothing for or against Middleton, just that numbers like that are jaw dropping for a player that is good but not a superstar.

Like I said earlier, he's a really, really good player who is on an elite player's contract.

"He's a max player because Giannis wants him to be a max player" is what I was told at the time.

[JWags85]

Like I said earlier, he's a really, really good player who is on an elite player's contract.

"He's a max player because Giannis wants him to be a max player" is what I was told at the time.

Yep, give Middleton the max and make him happy and sign Thanasis were the “placate Giannis and make him wanna stay” moves. Except one of those prevents you from putting the most power behind your MVP and potentially cripples your franchise if Giannis leaves.

[MUBurrow]

I agree that Middleton deal is an albatross. If Giannis leaves, he's Kevin Love sitting on a huge deal with the Cavs.

But if you run the counterfactual, I still don't see a lot of better options, either.  The Bucks had the best record in the league and I think most would say that the playoff run would have gone better and longer if not for the 'rona.  They were one of two favorites to win the title when play stopped.

If the Bucks don't give Middleton that deal, you have to assume he signs elsewhere. There isn't an obvious all-star that would have signed into that cap space last year, so its probably safe to assume they sign some role players to short deals and preserve the cap space to sign someone to the max in 2020.  Its hard to imagine the Bucks have the same level of success in 2019-2020 with that strategy, even if you don't love Middleton.

So now you let Middleton walk, and didn't put yourself in as good a position for success in 2019-2020. Giannis is significantly more pissed and impatient.  The pressure is on to find him a second star. What's the move? Look at this damn list - https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/.  Hayward and the Brow ain't going anywhere.  The rest of that list? Blegh.  They'd have to trade for someone, but they don't have trade assets, they have cap space.  You could try to buy some picks to trade, but presumably you also need the space to sign the trade target to a max deal.  The risk of striking out again is very real.

My point is that the Middleton deal will probably always look ugly, but even knowing what we know now, I can't say the Bucks didn't make the right call.

[cheebs09]

I agree that Middleton deal is an albatross. If Giannis leaves, he's Kevin Love sitting on a huge deal with the Cavs.

But if you run the counterfactual, I still don't see a lot of better options, either.  The Bucks had the best record in the league and I think most would say that the playoff run would have gone better and longer if not for the 'rona.  They were one of two favorites to win the title when play stopped.

If the Bucks don't give Middleton that deal, you have to assume he signs elsewhere. There isn't an obvious all-star that would have signed into that cap space last year, so its probably safe to assume they sign some role players to short deals and preserve the cap space to sign someone to the max in 2020.  Its hard to imagine the Bucks have the same level of success in 2019-2020 with that strategy, even if you don't love Middleton.

So now you let Middleton walk, and didn't put yourself in as good a position for success in 2019-2020. Giannis is significantly more pissed and impatient.  The pressure is on to find him a second star. What's the move? Look at this damn list - https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/.  Hayward and the Brow ain't going anywhere.  The rest of that list? Blegh.  They'd have to trade for someone, but they don't have trade assets, they have cap space.  You could try to buy some picks to trade, but presumably you also need the space to sign the trade target to a max deal.  The risk of striking out again is very real.

My point is that the Middleton deal will probably always look like ugly, but even knowing what we know now, I can't say the Bucks didn't make the right call.

Yea. There definitely were teams that would have offered Middleton the max if the Bucks didn’t. It just shows that the players at Giannis’ level are underpaid compared to some borderline guys that get the max.

I don’t believe the Bucks had many good free agent options out there to spend on if they didn’t give Middleton that contract. Butler would have been a good choice, but I don’t know if he had any interest. Also, his rep wasn’t very good (proving to be more his situations than him), so I think there was some caution around him at the time.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I think in retrospect the Bucks would have let Bledsoe walk and look at better options at point. 

[Skatastrophy]

Yea. There definitely were teams that would have offered Middleton the max if the Bucks didn’t. It just shows that the players at Giannis’ level are underpaid compared to some borderline guys that get the max.

I don’t believe the Bucks had many good free agent options out there to spend on if they didn’t give Middleton that contract. Butler would have been a good choice, but I don’t know if he had any interest. Also, his rep wasn’t very good (proving to be more his situations than him), so I think there was some caution around him at the time.

Butler would have eaten Coach Bud and a few of the players alive. The Heat is the right place for him with such a strong coach & management team. Or with Pop.

[MUfan12]

I think in retrospect the Bucks would have let Bledsoe walk and look at better options at point.

They bid against themselves. Windhorst on his pod last week said "If Rich Paul lets his guy sign before hitting free agency, it's almost always a bad deal for the team."