NBA Thread 2019-20

[Cheeks]

All this.
The notion that these guys became the best players in the world while also being lazy is beyond dumb.
If they lacked desire, work ethic and the necessity attitude, they wouldn't be where they are today.

Lots of false arguments here.  You can be one of the best players in the world and take plays off or even neglect an aspect of your game.  Carmelo Anthony ring a bell?  Or in some cases just not be very good at one side of it...Andrew Rowsey comes to mind at MU.  Not sure why you are making this argument.  Again, why are these high profile players making this statement about lack of defense and the NBA not emphasizing it?  As Green stated, they know what the league wants and where the emphasis is...his words...so they can work very hard at the offensive game and not need to put full effort in the defensive side...both can be true and to believe Green and Irving, that seems to be the case.  Is Green not someone who seems to speak his mind?  How about Irving? 

[Uncle Rico]

Lots of false arguments here.  You can be one of the best players in the world and take plays off or even neglect an aspect of your game.  Carmelo Anthony ring a bell?  Or in some cases just not be very good at one side of it...Andrew Rowsey comes to mind at MU.  Not sure why you are making this argument.  Again, why are these high profile players making this statement about lack of defense and the NBA not emphasizing it?  As Green stated, they know what the league wants and where the emphasis is...his words...so they can work very hard at the offensive game and not need to put full effort in the defensive side...both can be true and to believe Green and Irving, that seems to be the case.  Is Green not someone who seems to speak his mind?  How about Irving? 

College kids don't play offense because coaches want defense or something.  I heard Tom Izzo say defense wins championships.  🙄

[MU82]

"There's no defense in the NBA" has been something folks have been claiming, off and on, for as long as I've been watching NBA hoops.

[Pakuni]

Lots of false arguments here.  You can be one of the best players in the world and take plays off or even neglect an aspect of your game.  Carmelo Anthony ring a bell?  Or in some cases just not be very good at one side of it...Andrew Rowsey comes to mind at MU.  Not sure why you are making this argument.  Again, why are these high profile players making this statement about lack of defense and the NBA not emphasizing it?  As Green stated, they know what the league wants and where the emphasis is...his words...so they can work very hard at the offensive game and not need to put full effort in the defensive side...both can be true and to believe Green and Irving, that seems to be the case.  Is Green not someone who seems to speak his mind?  How about Irving? 

As you're wont to do, you're shifting goalposts again.
You started this by claiming "NBA defense is a joke" and that NBA players lack the effort, desire and attitude of college players.
That very bad, provably false argument has now changed into something entirely different, that "NBA rules favor offense" (like the rules in every other sport) and "some players aren't good on defense" (like the players in every other sport).

Should take this to mean that you admit you were wrong about NBA players' effort, desire and attitude?

[Cheeks]

"There's no defense in the NBA" has been something folks have been claiming, off and on, for as long as I've been watching NBA hoops.

Then you didn't watch the NBA during the 90's when it was a brawl.


I'm enjoying Derrick Rose's comments..."but for real, who really plays defense in the NBA?"

https://streamable.com/9iki8


Some guy named Wesley Matthews last year was asked...should see his response.  All these actual players saying the same thing about defense, offense is what NBA wants, defense discouraged or penalized, etc.  Must be a union thing that they all have the same talking points...LOL.

[tower912]

Dumb.  I remember the Bad Boys Pistons, the Bulls, the Knicks turning playoff games into first to 80 slogs.  Then, the NBA changed the rules and legislated that kind of physicality out of the game.   The simple fact is that the average and above NBA player is too talented to be guarded 1 on 1 in space without hand checking except by the exceptional defenders.
NBA players play defense.   Against the best in the world.   Without being permitted to be physical.

[MU82]

Dumb.  I remember the Bad Boys Pistons, the Bulls, the Knicks turning playoff games into firstrst to 80 slogs.  Then, the NBA changed the rules and legislated that kind of physicality out of the game.   The simple fact is that the average and above NBA player is too talented to be guarded 1 on 1 in space without hand checking except by the exceptional defenders.
NBA players play defense.   Against the best in the world.   Without being permitted to be physical.

Yep.

Then you didn't watch the NBA during the 90's when it was a brawl.

Not sure which "you" you're talking about. I didn't say it.

[Pakuni]

Then you didn't watch the NBA during the 90's when it was a brawl.

And also bad basketball.

[Galway Eagle]

And also bad basketball.

Seriously? Jordan, Pippen, Barkley, Ewing, Mullin, Drexler, Stockton, Malone, Olajuwon, Thomas, Miller, Robinson,  etc. the 90s were probably the deepest collection of all time players in their primes of any era. It wasn't as offensively pretty if that's what you mean by bad basketball because the rules were different.

Edit: Shaq reasonably belongs on that list before you start hitting the great but not all timers portion.

[Pakuni]

Seriously? Jordan, Pippen, Barkley, Ewing, Mullin, Drexler, Stockton, Malone, Olajuwon, Thomas, Miller, Robinson,  etc. the 90s were probably the deepest collection of all time players in their primes of any era. It wasn't as offensively pretty if that's what you mean by bad basketball because the rules were different.

Edit: Shaq reasonably belongs on that list before you start hitting the great but not all timers portion.

You answered your own question.
I didn't say bad basketball players. I said bad basketball. Slow pace, lots of fouls, ridiculous amount of hand-checking, etc.
I say all these as a Bulls fans who loved every moment of their dynasty. But man, how much more fund would Jordan, Pippen. etc., been if they didn't have to put up with muggings by the Pistons and Knicks?

[Cheeks]

And also bad basketball.

I didn't care for it either, but they did play defense then at a rate nowhere close to the level today.

[Cheeks]

As you're wont to do, you're shifting goalposts again.
You started this by claiming "NBA defense is a joke" and that NBA players lack the effort, desire and attitude of college players.
That very bad, provably false argument has now changed into something entirely different, that "NBA rules favor offense" (like the rules in every other sport) and "some players aren't good on defense" (like the players in every other sport).

Should take this to mean that you admit you were wrong about NBA players' effort, desire and attitude?

Nope

I am saying both.  Endless examples of guys literally not trying...low effort.  AND also, NBA rules and emphasis push offense, which in turn feeds part A again because why the need to try as hard on defense if the NBA is going to make it so difficult, rack up fouls for breathing on someone, etc.   Sorry, not demonstrably false....there is a reason why so many guys are saying things....different things...but all coming to the conclusion that defense is an after thought in the NBA currently.  Rudy Gay another one.  The quotes, videos, etc just keep on coming....I'm in a sharing mood....

[The Sultan]

I didn't care for it either,  it they did play defense then at a rate nowhere close to the level today.

80% of that is because rules have changed. The other 20% is due to innovative offensive basketball. 0% due to change in player effort.

[The Sultan]

Nope

I am saying both.  Endless examples of guys literally not trying...low effort.  AND also, NBA rules and emphasis push offense, which in turn feeds part A again because why the need to try as hard on defense if the NBA is going to make it so difficult, rack up fouls for breathing on someone, etc.   Aorry, not demonstrably false....there is a reason why so many guys are saying things....different things...but all coming to the conclusion that defense is an after thought in the NBA currently.  Rudy Gay another one.  The quotes, videos, etc just keep on coming....I'm in a sharing mood....

Former players saying current players aren't doing the right things are worn and tired...and largely inaccurate.

So provide all the quotes you want. It doesn't prove anything.

[MU82]

Former players saying current players aren't doing the right things are worn and tired...and largely inaccurate.

So provide all the quotes you want. It doesn't prove anything.

Come on, man. ALL former players and/or older players always played killer defense every second they were on the court. Barkley, Dirk, Iceman, Pistol Pete ... they never took a single defensive possession off.

[Cheeks]

80% of that is because rules have changed. The other 20% is due to innovative offensive basketball. 0% due to change in player effort.

0%...LOL. 


Kyrie Irving didn't say anything about effort...he said, "There's no defense. There's just none. We got into a Utah-Boston game and it's [98-86] and you can see the difference in effort in every single night, which I get from an NBA player's standpoint, the amount of games we play, but sometimes you have to make guys miss."

Lebron James was destroyed here locally for his "lack of effort defensively" with the Lakers.

[reinko]

Seriously? Jordan, Pippen, Barkley, Ewing, Mullin, Drexler, Stockton, Malone, Olajuwon, Thomas, Miller, Robinson,  etc. the 90s were probably the deepest collection of all time players in their primes of any era. It wasn't as offensively pretty if that's what you mean by bad basketball because the rules were different.

Edit: Shaq reasonably belongs on that list before you start hitting the great but not all timers portion.

Lol

[MU82]

0%...LOL. 


Kyrie Irving didn't say anything about effort...he said, "There's no defense. There's just none. We got into a Utah-Boston game and it's [98-86] and you can see the difference in effort in every single night, which I get from an NBA player's standpoint, the amount of games we play, but sometimes you have to make guys miss."

Lebron James was destroyed here locally for his "lack of effort defensively" with the Lakers.

Wait ... I thought it wasn't about "effort." Which is it?

[The Sultan]

Seriously? Jordan, Pippen, Barkley, Ewing, Mullin, Drexler, Stockton, Malone, Olajuwon, Thomas, Miller, Robinson,  etc. the 90s were probably the deepest collection of all time players in their primes of any era. It wasn't as offensively pretty if that's what you mean by bad basketball because the rules were different.

Edit: Shaq reasonably belongs on that list before you start hitting the great but not all timers portion.

No the basketball sucked. Little ball movement. Isolation ball dominated. Defensive mugging allowed.

[JWags85]

0%...LOL. 


Kyrie Irving didn't say anything about effort...he said, "There's no defense. There's just none. We got into a Utah-Boston game and it's [98-86] and you can see the difference in effort in every single night, which I get from an NBA player's standpoint, the amount of games we play, but sometimes you have to make guys miss."

Lebron James was destroyed here locally for his "lack of effort defensively" with the Lakers.

Don't misconstrue what I said for your BS narrative.  I said Lebron James, he of chasedown block fame and 5x Defensive First Team, didn't try on defense last year cause his team sucked, he was pouting, and he didn't like the squad.  Of course you use that to bang the dumb drum of no effort and no defense.  Find a quote thats not pissed off at the end of a game and stop cherry picking deceiving material.  But you can't, cause thats your game.  Might want to name drop an NBA talent you had a meeting with who supports your point, those are always fun!

[Cheeks]

Wait ... I thought it wasn't about "effort." Which is it?

I'll put the first part in teal for clarity

[Cheeks]

Don't misconstrue what I said for your BS narrative.  I said Lebron James, he of chasedown block fame and 5x Defensive First Team, didn't try on defense last year cause his team sucked, he was pouting, and he didn't like the squad.  Of course you use that to bang the dumb drum of no effort and no defense.  Find a quote thats not pissed off at the end of a game and stop cherry picking deceiving material.  But you can't, cause thats your game.  Might want to name drop an NBA talent you had a meeting with who supports your point, those are always fun!

I see, quotes by nba players that don't fit your point of view do not count or have a * around them because they are said at the end of a game (Draymond Green's wasn't at the end of a game nor was Wesley Matthews)...got it.   Classic.   So strange that so many guys come to the same conclusion...weird.  I didn't even bother posting quotes from GM's, several coaches and other players saying the same things.

I think the most fun I have is with this logical fallacy...you know the one...the offensive skills and athleticism is so great today that it over power the defensive "effort".  Think about that for a second.  Apparently all that great athleticism of today doesn't also benefit defense?  It's a one way street?  Lol. 

[The Sultan]

I see, quotes by nba players that don't fit your point of view do not count or have a * around them because they are said at the end of a game (Draymond Green's wasn't at the end of a game nor was Wesley Matthews)...got it.   Classic.   So strange that so many guys come to the same conclusion...weird.  I didn't even bother posting quotes from GM's, several coaches and other players saying the same things.

I think the most fun I have is with this logical fallacy...you know the one...the offensive skills and athleticism is so great today that it over power the defensive "effort".  Think about that for a second.  Apparently all that great athleticism of today doesn't also benefit defense?  It's a one way street?  Lol. 

I'm trying to figure out if you are actually this dumb or just playing dumb. What players are allowed to do on defense has changed. This has been explained multiple times here.

But you'll continue with the narrative come hell or high water because that's what you do. It's the only thing you do here. Antagonize.

So congrats on that.

[MUBurrow]

No the basketball sucked. Little ball movement. Isolation ball dominated. Defensive mugging allowed.

Just chiming in to preemptively and gratuitously defend The Dream. Dude would have been an all-timer if he had been shooting into a peach basket, guarding Kareem, playing against Magic and Bird, in the 90s, or today. He embarrassed young Shaq for years, and if he played today would be Joel Embiid-plus. Made it look pretty at a time when it all looked ugly.

[Pakuni]

I think the most fun I have is with this logical fallacy...you know the one...the offensive skills and athleticism is so great today that it over power the defensive "effort".  Think about that for a second.  Apparently all that great athleticism of today doesn't also benefit defense?  It's a one way street?  Lol.

The irony here is that you wrongly assert one thing as a logical fallacy while at the same time offering a logical fallacy.