Lawyer Help - Car Contract Question

[StillAWarrior]

This thread reminded me of an email exchange I had with a dealer about 10 years ago.  I just went back and re-read the email chain and it gave me a good chuckle.

It was here in Cleveland, but he was a Milwaukee guy and we talked about Marquette.  His title was Manager of Customer relations.  I really liked the guy when we spoke, and wanted to buy the car from him.  A day or two after I was at the dealership, I sent an email asking their best offer and asked him to include all the main numbers for a lease (sale price, residual, interest, down payment, fees, monthly payment).   The dealership was much closer to my house than the other dealer I was talking to, so I really did want to get the car from them if possible. 

He sent me an extremely high-ball quote that wasn't even for the term that I had requested (I'd requested 36, he sent 48) but it did have all the different numbers I had requested.  I asked how it would change things if we shortened the term, but he didn't give me the new numbers.  I shared another quote I had which were much better on the sale price, interest, down payment, etc., and asked me if they could beat it.  He told me that if I came in that day, his boss would give me the car at a monthly payment  $5 less than the quote from the other dealer.  (Side note:  the fastest way to piss me off as a consumer is to tell me that you're offering me a deal but I must act immediately -- even if I plan to act immediately, that really pisses me off.)  But, he absolutely refused to give me any of the other numbers that they were using to get to that payment -- only promised it would be a lower monthly payment.  I told him that I didn't know why they were making it difficult, and asked if they could just provide all the numbers I'd requested so I could make an apples to apples comparison.  He told me that it wasn't rocket science and said, "I'm not sure what this whole email me back and forth thing is about and the beating around the bush either your ready or your not."

When he emailed me the following Monday, I let him know that I got the car from the other dealer over the weekend.

It really was a strange experience.  He eventually seemed to think that essentially insulting me would cause me to run to the dealership and by the car from him.  I'm glad I saved the email exchange as I've re-read it a couple times over the years, and I always find it amusing.

[warriorchick]

This thread reminded me of an email exchange I had with a dealer about 10 years ago.  I just went back and re-read the email chain and it gave me a good chuckle.

It was here in Cleveland, but he was a Milwaukee guy and we talked about Marquette.  His title was Manager of Customer relations.  I really liked the guy when we spoke, and wanted to buy the car from him.  A day or two after I was at the dealership, I sent an email asking their best offer and asked him to include all the main numbers for a lease (sale price, residual, interest, down payment, fees, monthly payment).   The dealership was much closer to my house than the other dealer I was talking to, so I really did want to get the car from them if possible. 

He sent me an extremely high-ball quote that wasn't even for the term that I had requested (I'd requested 36, he sent 48) but it did have all the different numbers I had requested.  I asked how it would change things if we shortened the term, but he didn't give me the new numbers.  I shared another quote I had which were much better on the sale price, interest, down payment, etc., and asked me if they could beat it.  He told me that if I came in that day, his boss would give me the car at a monthly payment  $5 less than the quote from the other dealer.  (Side note:  the fastest way to piss me off as a consumer is to tell me that you're offering me a deal but I must act immediately -- even if I plan to act immediately, that really pisses me off.)  But, he absolutely refused to give me any of the other numbers that they were using to get to that payment -- only promised it would be a lower monthly payment.  I told him that I didn't know why they were making it difficult, and asked if they could just provide all the numbers I'd requested so I could make an apples to apples comparison.  He told me that it wasn't rocket science and said, "I'm not sure what this whole email me back and forth thing is about and the beating around the bush either your ready or your not."

When he emailed me the following Monday, I let him know that I got the car from the other dealer over the weekend.

It really was a strange experience.  He eventually seemed to think that essentially insulting me would cause me to run to the dealership and by the car from him.  I'm glad I saved the email exchange as I've re-read it a couple times over the years, and I always find it amusing.

First rule of finance: never negotiate based on the payment.  Whether it is a lease or a purchase, you should negotiate the price of the car.  It's too easy to hide crap in a monthly payment.  After that, then talk about the monthly payment.


Glow and I love it when we go to a car dealership and one of the first things the salesperson asks is "What kind of payment are you looking for?" More than once, Glow has responded with, "I am a bank executive and she's a CPA.  Don't try to pull that with us."

[jficke13]

First rule of finance: never negotiate based on the payment.  Whether it is a lease or a purchase, you should negotiate the price of the car.  It's too easy to hide crap in a monthly payment.  After that, then talk about the monthly payment.
[...]

Do people literally by cars based on nothing more than the monthly payment? They must because I've gotten some weird questions like that from dealers.

Ever go into a Carmax to get a quote on a trade for information purposes? The first time I did I was coming off a bout with the flu, and I went in after work so I was exhausted. While the appraiser people were looking at my car, the saleswoman started asking me questions and I was too cooked to do anything but mumble half-hearted responses.

"What kind of payment do you want?"

"Uh, I dunno, I was gonna pay cash."

"Oh okay, what kind of price were you looking at?"

"Uh, $20k I guess, I'm not really here to buy a car."

"Well let's just take a look see at what we've got. Oh here's a 10 year old Infinity with 120k miles on it that's RIGHT in your price range."

<blank stare>

/fin

I was just in there for the same purpose only this time didn't engage. I did scope it out to see if they were selling anything comparable to what I was selling (a '13 Altima w/ 150k miles). They were selling a '13 Altima w/ 120k for $11k! Who is buying a 6 year old midsize sedan with 100k+ miles on it for over ten grand?

[dgies9156]

I can do you one better, Brother D, and you will appreciate this because it happened in Nashville.

A co-worker of mine in Milwaukee moved to Music City because her husband got transferred.  Soon after getting down there, she went shopping for a car.  She found a car that she liked, and was ready to make a deal with the salesperson.  He flat out refused to negotiate with her unless she came back with her husband.  Although she was wearing a wedding ring, she had not mentioned him at any prior point in the process.

Like Julia Roberts said in Pretty Woman,  "Big Mistake.  BIG Mistake".

She left, and a couple of days later, bought the same car from someone who believed womenfolk were able to make their own decisions.

My Mother had the same thing happen to her years ago. Went into a Pontiac dealership in Madison, TN. She talked with a salesman and really liked the car. The salesman was excited and saw sale and asked her, "Do you have your Husband's permission?"

My Dad did not want to be bothered with a car purchase. They'd agreed on what they wanted already and what the budget was. So my Mom, knowing what was about to happen, had the guy call my Dad at work. The salesman started and My Dad cut him off and said, "What the hell did my wife tell you?" The salesman studdered and then my Dad said, "Don't ask me. It's Her car. Now go away." and hung up on him.

I think Mom extracted a much larger discount as a consequence of that a*s. 

[ZiggysFryBoy]

First rule of finance: never negotiate based on the payment.  Whether it is a lease or a purchase, you should negotiate the price of the car.  It's too easy to hide crap in a monthly payment.  After that, then talk about the monthly payment.


Glow and I love it when we go to a car dealership and one of the first things the salesperson asks is "What kind of payment are you looking for?" More than once, Glow has responded with, "I am a bank executive and she's a CPA with 3 dragons flying around her.  Don't try to pull that with us."

FIFY

[Spotcheck Billy]

(Side note:  the fastest way to piss me off as a consumer is to tell me that you're offering me a deal but I must act immediately -- even if I plan to act immediately, that really pisses me off.)

+1! I once had a UPS salesman present 2 contract offers (I was consulting a client's bids for parcel service) and he told me the (much) better proposal was only good for 24 hours. There was no possible way that this corporation would make any decision within 2 weeks let alone 24 hours on a 2 year contract. I was stunned that UPS would even do that.

[jsglow]

First rule of finance: never negotiate based on the payment.  Whether it is a lease or a purchase, you should negotiate the price of the car.  It's too easy to hide crap in a monthly payment.  After that, then talk about the monthly payment.


Glow and I love it when we go to a car dealership and one of the first things the salesperson asks is "What kind of payment are you looking for?" More than once, Glow has responded with, "I am a bank executive and she's a CPA.  Don't try to pull that with us."

As you can tell, I'm not a very nice guy.   

[MU82]

Don't just be prepared to walk away, be prepared to call the local TV station.   Know which one specializes in consumer issues and program their consumer hotline  into your phone.

Get a screen grab of the online car listing before you go to the dealer (or take a picture).  That will help the TV station verify your claim in case the dealer changes the online price.  It'll also help the TV station  so they can show the listed price. 

If the dealer pulls a bait and switch, ask to speak to the highest ranking manager on site, preferably the GM. Tell him, "I'm getting that price or calling Action 2 News!"

Walking away just means they are going to screw somebody else.  But a TV news story about them being a scummy car dealer is far more damaging to their bottom line than the $2,000 to $3,000 they let you save.

I really like this idea, Lazar, and I'm going to use it (if necessary) next time.

When I'm watching TV and there's a scene with corruption or something, I scream something along the lines of: "Just threaten to take it to the New York Times!" I should follow my own advice.

Related note:

A few folks have mentioned the Costco Car Program.

I have found that it gets very good results if the car is a popular newer model or one in short supply for some reason. But if it's just a regular Camry or CRV or Rogue or something, usually a good deal-maker can beat Costco's program price. Just what I've found, anyway. Those who don't care about saving those last few hundies and just want an easier deal, Costco is a painless way to go -- especially if you don't have a trade-in, don't need financing and are good at rejecting all the ad-ons like extended warranty.

[jesmu84]

I really like this idea, Lazar, and I'm going to use it (if necessary) next time.

When I'm watching TV and there's a scene with corruption or something, I scream something along the lines of: "Just threaten to take it to the New York Times!" I should follow my own advice.

Related note:

A few folks have mentioned the Costco Car Program.

I have found that it gets very good results if the car is a popular newer model or one in short supply for some reason. But if it's just a regular Camry or CRV or Rogue or something, usually a good deal-maker can beat Costco's program price. Just what I've found, anyway. Those who don't care about saving those last few hundies and just want an easier deal, Costco is a painless way to go -- especially if you don't have a trade-in, don't need financing and are good at rejecting all the ad-ons like extended warranty.

yup

[mu_hilltopper]

I've purchased my last 4 cars via email, all have been easy.  Pickups were a test drive and paperwork.

Heck, one of those cars, I had a good price from a dealer in Chicago but went to a Milwaukee dealer and they didn't even try to meet the price I already had.

In short .. email has worked for me every time.

[tower912]

I have had nothing but positive experiences purchasing cars over the years.  I have a plan, usually know more than the salesman about the car, stay pleasant, try to get to a number that is a win-win and am always prepared to walk away if I feel like I am getting played.  I have done that twice.  When my children were younger, I would bring them along to get fidgety and then use their restlessness as a tool to get to a bottom line number more quickly.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

I have had nothing but positive experiences purchasing cars over the years.  I have a plan, usually know more than the salesman about the car, stay pleasant, try to get to a number that is a win-win and am always prepared to walk away if I feel like I am getting played.  I have done that twice.  When my children were younger, I would bring them along to get fidgety and then use their restlessness as a tool to get to a bottom line number more quickly.

12 year olds can still get plenty squirrelly.   

[4everwarriors]

Glad ta cee yo post, kin. Worried ya were mixed up in da WTS incident, hey?

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Glad ta cee yo post, kin. Worried ya were mixed up in da WTS incident, hey?

Only a few blocks from my office, we our building is still closed from the flooding.  We are all working from home until the power is fixed.

[🏀]

I'm going to be shopping for a used SUV (Pilot, Highlander, Santa Fe) with a third row in the near future.

I will flat out say my wife and I hated our last car buying experience, and we are probably terrible at it.

What's the strategy I should be using to not get completely fleeced?

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

PTM
Like Tower said, know approximately what a used car in the models you like should cost.  Know what about to expect on a trade-in (if you have one).  Check car loan bank rates which are usually posted on bank websites.  I would check AAA auto loan rates too.  Write it all down or print out so when you go into the dealer you know what is reasonable.
Check out cars.com or Kellysbluebook.com or autotrader.com

I just bought a new Acadia over the summer.  My oldest daughter started driving and we decided to not buy another used car for her and the oldest daughter would just drive our oldest car.  We paid about what we expected.  The GMC dealer was actually very cool.  They called us back after we agreed to purchase the car and said they got the price down further because my wife is a teacher and GM has a teachers discount.
I bought a 1-year old certified car at the very end of 2014.  The dealer was looking to add sales before the year closed out, so they met the crazy low price my wife threw out in negotiation. 

[reinko]

I'm going to be shopping for a used SUV (Pilot, Highlander, Santa Fe) with a third row in the near future.

I will flat out say my wife and I hated our last car buying experience, and we are probably terrible at it.

What's the strategy I should be using to not get completely fleeced?

I think the fact you are flexible on model helps.  If you can be flexible on color as well, that'll be helpful too since cars that sit longer on lots you can get a better deal on.  Are you trading in?  While I haven't used them, my family and friends love to use CarMax (or something like it), no hassle/hangling...no bait and switch, the price is the price...

Certified Pre-Owned (CPO) cars tend to be pretty hot sellers, so when we were looking for a CRV a few years ago, CPOs were trending around $21K-$24K w/ mileage in the 25K-35K realm.  We were buying around this time of the year, so they still had A LOT new CRV's on the lot from the previous year, and financing rates for new are much better than CPO, and we got .9% and OTD (out the door price w/ all fees, taxes, registration) for $25.5K.  In my opinion, dealers don't negotiate CPOs as much because they don't have much of an incentive since they are faster sellers than new.

[tower912]

13 months ago, my wife totaled her Outback.  (Don't get me started on insurance companies.   A whole other thread)     Her first instinct was to buy a late model used Outback.    It was the end of the 2017 model year and Subaru was having their year end clearance.      Whereas we would have had to drop mid $20's for any kind of late model used Outback, our dealership was already knocking $4500 off of in-stock 2017 stickers and offering 0% for 63 months.    Didn't even try to dicker on that.   Walked in with the $10k insurance check and financed $20k at 0% for a brand new car.     
   Pay attention to model year closeouts and financing deals.   Be patient and flexible.

[mu_hilltopper]

I'm a fan of the website CarGurus.com for new/used car listings.  They do a nice job showing the advertised price, and whether they think that's above or below market rates.   Not to mention .. they'll show how many days the (used) car has been on the lot, and the dates and amounts of the price drops as time goes on.

Nice to find a car that's been sitting there for 3 months.  "Wanna sell me the car at my offer, or keep that car on your lot for 4 months?"

[warriorchick]

I think the fact you are flexible on model helps.  If you can be flexible on color as well, that'll be helpful too since cars that sit longer on lots you can get a better deal on.  Are you trading in?  While I haven't used them, my family and friends love to use CarMax (or something like it), no hassle/hangling...no bait and switch, the price is the price...

We have bought a couple of cars at CarMax, and yes, it was quite a pleasant experience.  But in the last few years they have really bumped up their prices.  I recently read an article that said on average, Carmax sells its cars for more than $2K over the rest of the market. For that amount, I am willing to put up with an afternoon of B.S.

[jficke13]

I'm going to be shopping for a used SUV (Pilot, Highlander, Santa Fe) with a third row in the near future.

I will flat out say my wife and I hated our last car buying experience, and we are probably terrible at it.

What's the strategy I should be using to not get completely fleeced?

Not sure how well it works for used, but for a new car I used Truecar.com. You put in the specs of what you're interested in, and click like the see offers button and within (not exaggerating) seconds, I got emails and phone calls from every dealer in the area. I answered each phone call with a really quick and hushed "sorry, at work, can't talk, but I can email. Can you email me?" and got a bunch of quotes in a hurry. Was able to pit everyone against each other via email.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

I think the fact you are flexible on model helps.  If you can be flexible on color as well, that'll be helpful too since cars that sit longer on lots you can get a better deal on.  Are you trading in?  While I haven't used them, my family and friends love to use CarMax (or something like it), no hassle/hangling...no bait and switch, the price is the price...

Certified Pre-Owned (CPO) cars tend to be pretty hot sellers, so when we were looking for a CRV a few years ago, CPOs were trending around $21K-$24K w/ mileage in the 25K-35K realm.  We were buying around this time of the year, so they still had A LOT new CRV's on the lot from the previous year, and financing rates for new are much better than CPO, and we got .9% and OTD (out the door price w/ all fees, taxes, registration) for $25.5K.  In my opinion, dealers don't negotiate CPOs as much because they don't have much of an incentive since they are faster sellers than new.

I had a similiar experience a few years ago when shopping for a CR-V.  Three year old used CR-Vs with 25-35k miles were about $20,500.  I'm betting most of those were leased cars turned back in after the 36 month lease was up.

We ended up leasing a new CR-V with an option to buy. Down payment was definitely under $5k, and IIRC it was around $3k.  Monthly payment totaled $220 and the end of lease purchase price was about $14,500.  Total cost of about $23,750.

We essentially treated the lease like 36 month 0% financing (or very minimal).  Then we had a balloon payment at the end but we were able to save up the cash during the 36 months.

[MUWarrior2007]

First rule of finance: never negotiate based on the payment.  Whether it is a lease or a purchase, you should negotiate the price of the car.  It's too easy to hide crap in a monthly payment.  After that, then talk about the monthly payment.


Glow and I love it when we go to a car dealership and one of the first things the salesperson asks is "What kind of payment are you looking for?" More than once, Glow has responded with, "I am a bank executive and she's a CPA.  Don't try to pull that with us."

I am admittedly not great with numbers - can you explain why it is a bad idea to negotiate based on the payment?

[reinko]

I am admittedly not great with numbers - can you explain why it is a bad idea to negotiate based on the payment?

Because it's easy for the dealer to say:

"oh, you want your payment to be $xxx, then just take 72 month financing, instead of 60 month"
"oh, you want your payment to be $xxx, then just put $2K down instead of nothing"
"oh, you want your payment to be $xxx, then just lease for 36 months, instead of buying..."

yadda, yadda, yadda...

[DegenerateDish]

I love the car buying game, maybe it's a career of being in sales, and being on the other side of the table, but I love it.

My advice:

-Do as much of your negotiating over the internet. Never just walk into a dealer blind.
-Use your email quotes against other dealers, don't fight for every last dollar over email, but you'll know who to use/eliminate rather quickly.
-Never negotiate for the monthly payment, but have in your head your plan of how much you have budgeted to pay per month. My two cents, never go above 60 months on financing
-Eventually when you decide what dealer to walk into, let them know up front you talked to Billy/Susie in the internet dept, and you have a quote from him/her. This immediately gives you a little bit of leverage
-Don't get emotional, don't be a jerk to the sales rep. He/She should be motivated to work with you, and your gut instinct will start to tell you soon into the process whether you're going to do a deal or not
-Know your credit score and what the finance options are before you walk into the dealer. Interest rates keep going up, if you see a dealer advertising 2.9% on their website, see if you can go to a credit union and do better than that. Keep that better finance rate though in your back pocket. Dealers may give you a better purchase price knowing they're getting an incentive for you to finance at their rate through that car mfg's financial institution. Just re-fi after you make one payment
-Know how much you want to put down, don't do a penny more. As others have said, if the dealer knows you want to pay $400 a month, they'll tell you to throw an extra $1000 (or whatever) down to get you there.
-Never ever take the extended warranty. Ever. Do a Nancy Reagan, just say no. It's uncomfortable with the finance mgr, just get through it. They're going to ask you open ended questions like "what would you do if the XXXXX failed/died? It's $4000 to replace it". My simple response has always been "Well, I'd never buy another Honda/Toyota/Ford ever again, and would certainly never set foot in here again."
-Be comfortable walking away. If you know the deal is going south, simply say no thanks, we're going to leave. The dealer wants you there as long as possible, your time is important, if it's not going well, there's plenty of other cars/dealers out there that you can make a deal with