Pennsylvania Grand Jury report on abuse

[Pakuni]

So, my question is, why do you continue to support a corrupt organization? I was raised in an Evangelical Church, but quit cold turkey over their response to the AIDS epidemic in the 80s. My religious beliefs didn't change much, but as I see what the churches are doing now, I feel even better about the decision.


If my question is out of bounds, don't be shy about letting me know.

Not out of bounds, but I just don't by the premise. I don't believe my attendance at a Mass means I support the corrupt aspects of the Catholic organization (which is different from the faith) any more than my decision to stand for the national anthem means I support the separation of families at the border or any other terrible/evil/misguided policy of our government.
I believe I can respect and appreciate the faith and traditions of Catholicism while also abhorring the evil deeds committed by some church leaders, just as I believe I can respect and appreciate my country while also abhorring the evil deeds committed by some of its leaders.

[mu03eng]

Not out of bounds, but I just don't by the premise. I don't believe my attendance at a Mass means I support the corrupt aspects of the Catholic organization (which is different from the faith) any more than my decision to stand for the national anthem means I support the separation of families at the border or any other terrible/evil/misguided policy of our government.
I believe I can respect and appreciate the faith and traditions of Catholicism while also abhorring the evil deeds committed by some church leaders, just as I believe I can respect and appreciate my country while also abhorring the evil deeds committed by some of its leaders.

What about Tithing....does funding the organization change that?

[noblewarrior]

https://s3.amazonaws.com/spm-straph-parish-wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/20084333/208.mp3

Here's a link to a homily from a priest there in Wisc that may catch some of you up on various details of this situation and clarify what the issues are.  I know in my Athiest days listening to religous talk/preach drove me crazy due to my bias towards religions but if you choose to listen and can get over the preachyness you will come out better informed.

It's about 25 mins long and I recommend enduring till the end...

[MU82]

https://s3.amazonaws.com/spm-straph-parish-wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/20084333/208.mp3

Here's a link to a homily from a priest there in Wisc that may catch some of you up on various details of this situation and clarify what the issues are.  I know in my Athiest days listening to religous talk/preach drove me crazy due to my bias towards religions but if you choose to listen and can get over the preachyness you will come out better informed.

It's about 25 mins long and I recommend enduring till the end...

noble:

Just curious ... are your "atheist days" past? If so, what convinced you to return to religion? If you don't want to talk about it publicly, feel free to PM me. If you don't want to talk about it at all, that's obviously cool, too.

[buckchuckler]

What about Tithing....does funding the organization change that?

The easy response there is, do you pay taxes?  Does that make up implicit in everything the government does?

The money donated to the parishes, for the most part, stays at parish level.  It goes to upkeep for the buildings, pay the bills, pay for the rectory etc.  It also goes to outreach programs in which the parish participates.  Money that feeds and clothes the homeless.  Money that supports local families in need.  Money that helps families that can't afford it go to Catholic school.  Many parishes have what is essentially a sister parish they help support in other countries, collection money goes in that direction as well.

I am a Catholic.  And I am completely appalled at what has happened in the Church.  But in no way has that impacted my beliefs in what the Church teaches.  As a Catholic (in my opinion at least), if you truly believe in what the Church teaches, especially in regards to the Sacraments, it isn't something you can just substitute or replicate on your own.  The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are the only places you can receive Eucharist and Reconciliation.  Christ himself founded what has become to be known as the Catholic Church and he promised that the "gates of hell shall not avail against you".  If I am to be worthy of the words of Christ, I cannot just turn away and run and abandon the Church he founded because of the actions of evil.  It is up to me, as well as my brothers and sisters in faith, to fight for the Church.  It is up to us to be the counterbalance to evil with our actions, with our spirit and our love.  I don't believe that the Lord would abandon me at the time when I need his help, so nor shall I abandon his Church.

I am also, for whatever it is worth, an eternal optimist.  I have always believed in the goodness of people, and always tried to see the best in them.  While this has ended up burning me from time to time, it is the way that I am.  I believe in the goodness of the Catholic Church.  I look around me at the world and cannot help but see all the good that has been done by the Church, and as a result of the actions of the Church.  The Catholic Church has existed for over 2000 years.  It is made up of people.  Corruption has always been in the Church because humans will always succumb to the temptations that exist.  Even in the Church fathers, we see examples of how sin leads up astray.  Paul was famously persecuting Christians, to the point where he is in some sources credited for the first martyrdom.  Peter denied Christ 3 times out of fear.  Judas turned Christ over for crucifixion out of greed.  Corruption is part of the Church because the Church is made up of humanity.  There is no running or hiding from that, anywhere I would turn.

Sorry for the long, rambling, possibly even nonsensical response.  I didn't really pre-think before I typed and I am not as eloquent on the topic as I should be.

I am completely disgusted, abhorred and hurt by what has happened in the Church.  But in the Church I still find goodness, peace, forgiveness, strength, mercy, hope and love.  In the Church I still find The Lord.  I still find Christ.  I still find the Holy Spirit.  I can look the the Blessed Mother and the Saints for examples, for love and for prayers.  Those are not things from which I can walk away. 

[MU82]

The easy response there is, do you pay taxes?  Does that make up implicit in everything the government does?

The money donated to the parishes, for the most part, stays at parish level.  It goes to upkeep for the buildings, pay the bills, pay for the rectory etc.  It also goes to outreach programs in which the parish participates.  Money that feeds and clothes the homeless.  Money that supports local families in need.  Money that helps families that can't afford it go to Catholic school.  Many parishes have what is essentially a sister parish they help support in other countries, collection money goes in that direction as well.

I am a Catholic.  And I am completely appalled at what has happened in the Church.  But in no way has that impacted my beliefs in what the Church teaches.  As a Catholic (in my opinion at least), if you truly believe in what the Church teaches, especially in regards to the Sacraments, it isn't something you can just substitute or replicate on your own.  The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are the only places you can receive Eucharist and Reconciliation.  Christ himself founded what has become to be known as the Catholic Church and he promised that the "gates of hell shall not avail against you".  If I am to be worthy of the words of Christ, I cannot just turn away and run and abandon the Church he founded because of the actions of evil.  It is up to me, as well as my brothers and sisters in faith, to fight for the Church.  It is up to us to be the counterbalance to evil with our actions, with our spirit and our love.  I don't believe that the Lord would abandon me at the time when I need his help, so nor shall I abandon his Church.

I am also, for whatever it is worth, an eternal optimist.  I have always believed in the goodness of people, and always tried to see the best in them.  While this has ended up burning me from time to time, it is the way that I am.  I believe in the goodness of the Catholic Church.  I look around me at the world and cannot help but see all the good that has been done by the Church, and as a result of the actions of the Church.  The Catholic Church has existed for over 2000 years.  It is made up of people.  Corruption has always been in the Church because humans will always succumb to the temptations that exist.  Even in the Church fathers, we see examples of how sin leads up astray.  Paul was famously persecuting Christians, to the point where he is in some sources credited for the first martyrdom.  Peter denied Christ 3 times out of fear.  Judas turned Christ over for crucifixion out of greed.  Corruption is part of the Church because the Church is made up of humanity.  There is no running or hiding from that, anywhere I would turn.

Sorry for the long, rambling, possibly even nonsensical response.  I didn't really pre-think before I typed and I am not as eloquent on the topic as I should be.

I am completely disgusted, abhorred and hurt by what has happened in the Church.  But in the Church I still find goodness, peace, forgiveness, strength, mercy, hope and love.  In the Church I still find The Lord.  I still find Christ.  I still find the Holy Spirit.  I can look the the Blessed Mother and the Saints for examples, for love and for prayers.  Those are not things from which I can walk away.

Thanks for that insight, buck. Although I am an atheist, I like talking about religion, and I like hearing why others "do the religion thing."

My one nit would be with your opening line:

The easy response there is, do you pay taxes?  Does that make up implicit in everything the government does?

You are required to pay taxes. If you choose not to, you will get in trouble, maybe even go to jail.

You absolutely do not have to tithe. You choose to do so.

[GGGG]

The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are the only places you can receive Eucharist and Reconciliation.

Uh...what?

[Benny B]

What about Tithing....does funding the organization change that?

Tithing is more of a thing in the non-denominational Christian and prosperity-gospel churches.  Personally, I don't know of any Catholics who tithe.



Here's a mind blower for the critics, and I can't believe that no one has called me out on it yet, either...

Don't you think the victims deserve compensation?  If so, wouldn't supporting the church financially be the right thing to do?

[MarqKarp]

Sultan, you have to see Buck's comment through the eyes of a faithful Catholic.   It is a pretty fundamental belief of Catholicism, that the only churches that have apostolic succession is the Catholic and the Orthodox and therefore believe those two churches are the only ones with legitimate Eucharist and Reconciliation.     

[GGGG]

Sultan, you have to see Buck's comment through the eyes of a faithful Catholic.   It is a pretty fundamental belief of Catholicism, that the only churches that have apostolic succession is the Catholic and the Orthodox and therefore believe those two churches are the only ones with legitimate Eucharist and Reconciliation.     

Oh I understand. I find that mindset to be flawed.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Sultan, you have to see Buck's comment through the eyes of a faithful Catholic.   It is a pretty fundamental belief of Catholicism, that the only churches that have apostolic succession is the Catholic and the Orthodox and therefore believe those two churches are the only ones with legitimate Eucharist and Reconciliation.   

Man dies and goes to heaven. While getting the tour from St.  Peter,  he sees people of all denominations living together in happy communion. Then he sees a section with high walls and no windows. He asks St. Peter,  "what's that section over there?" St.  Peter says "Oh,  that's where the good Catholics go when they die. They like to believe they're the only ones up here."

[GGGG]

I do fully understand why Catholics can be both disgusted with how the Church dealt with this issue yet still be part of the church. If you care deeply about something, you try to fix it. That mindset makes perfect sense to me.

[buckchuckler]

Man dies and goes to heaven. While getting the tour from St.  Peter,  he sees people of all denominations living together in happy communion. Then he sees a section with high walls and no windows. He asks St. Peter,  "what's that section over there?" St.  Peter says "Oh,  that's where the good Catholics go when they die. They like to believe they're the only ones up here."

I know you are being cute, but that isn't it at all.  In fact, the Catholic Church believes in the salvation of all people, whether they are Catholic or not.  I have heard this analogy, If I get sick and go to the doctor and get medicine, I will have a good chance of getting well.  If you get sick and do not go to the doctor, you very well may get well, it will just be a little more difficult for you.  The Sacraments afford Grace that acts as medicine for the soul.  That is in no way to say that people of any other system of belief would be precluded from salvation. 

And my comment about Eucharist and Reconciliation were not meant to be slights or inflammatory at all.  I may be wrong here, but I thought that most protestant denominations didn't believe in Eucharist being Christ, body, blood, soul and divinity.  I also thought that most protestants do not see the need for Sacramental reconciliation.  Sorry if I was mis-informed.  I am by no means a scholar on protestant teachings.

[warriorchick]

Man dies and goes to heaven. While getting the tour from St.  Peter,  he sees people of all denominations living together in happy communion. Then he sees a section with high walls and no windows. He asks St. Peter,  "what's that section over there?" St.  Peter says "Oh,  that's where the good Catholics go when they die. They like to believe they're the only ones up here."

I have heard this joke many times, with nearly every Christian denomination as the punchline, but usually Baptists. 

Earlier in the joke,   the tour usually goes past a room where people are partying and drinking.  St. Peter says, "that's where all the Catholics are".

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

I know you are being cute, but that isn't it at all.  In fact, the Catholic Church believes in the salvation of all people, whether they are Catholic or not.  I have heard this analogy, If I get sick and go to the doctor and get medicine, I will have a good chance of getting well.  If you get sick and do not go to the doctor, you very well may get well, it will just be a little more difficult for you.  The Sacraments afford Grace that acts as medicine for the soul.  That is in no way to say that people of any other system of belief would be precluded from salvation. 

And my comment about Eucharist and Reconciliation were not meant to be slights or inflammatory at all.  I may be wrong here, but I thought that most protestant denominations didn't believe in Eucharist being Christ, body, blood, soul and divinity.  I also thought that most protestants do not see the need for Sacramental reconciliation.  Sorry if I was mis-informed.  I am by no means a scholar on protestant teachings.

My good friend growing, his dad was a Congregationalist Minister (the Puritans) and they have communion only once a month. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I know you are being cute, but that isn't it at all.  In fact, the Catholic Church believes in the salvation of all people, whether they are Catholic or not.  I have heard this analogy, If I get sick and go to the doctor and get medicine, I will have a good chance of getting well.  If you get sick and do not go to the doctor, you very well may get well, it will just be a little more difficult for you.  The Sacraments afford Grace that acts as medicine for the soul.  That is in no way to say that people of any other system of belief would be precluded from salvation. 

And my comment about Eucharist and Reconciliation were not meant to be slights or inflammatory at all.  I may be wrong here, but I thought that most protestant denominations didn't believe in Eucharist being Christ, body, blood, soul and divinity.  I also thought that most protestants do not see the need for Sacramental reconciliation.  Sorry if I was mis-informed.  I am by no means a scholar on protestant teachings.

That is interesting, you were taught very differently than I was (in case you missed it earlier, I'm a Catholic). I was taught that only way to receive salvation was through Catholic baptism. The exceptions being if you had a true intent/desire to be baptized but died before it could happen, if you were killed for your faith before being baptized, or if through "no fault of your own" were ignorant of the gospel but lived out the teachings of the gospel. Its been a while since I dusted off the old catechism so I could certainly be misremembering or just raised in a more conservative parish.

I have heard this joke many times, with nearly every Christian denomination as the punchline, but usually Baptists. 

Earlier in the joke,   the tour usually goes past a room where people are partying and drinking.  St. Peter says, "that's where all the Catholics are".

Personally have only heard it this way. Told to me be a Catholic priest! I do like the added bit about partying and drinking. Got to add gambling too!

[buckchuckler]

That is interesting, you were taught very differently than I was (in case you missed it earlier, I'm a Catholic). I was taught that only way to receive salvation was through Catholic baptism. The exceptions being if you had a true intent/desire to be baptized but died before it could happen, if you were killed for your faith before being baptized, or if through "no fault of your own" were ignorant of the gospel but lived out the teachings of the gospel. Its been a while since I dusted off the old catechism so I could certainly be misremembering or just raised in a more conservative parish.

Here is a pretty solid explanation.

https://rcspirituality.org/ask_a_priest/ask-a-priest-what-of-salvation-outside-the-church/

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Here is a pretty solid explanation.

https://rcspirituality.org/ask_a_priest/ask-a-priest-what-of-salvation-outside-the-church/

Thanks for sharing. I think the crossroads for many people is described in your article here:

Where it gets tricky is when we speak of people who have heard of Christianity, have heard of the Catholic Church, are aware of some of its doctrines and practices, etc., and yet they don't join it or even actively reject it. Do they have a chance at salvation? It depends.

It depends on how accurate their knowledge of the Church is, on what their intentions were, or whether they were influenced by the scandalous lives of Catholics.

What I taught in Catholic school and the more common message I have gotten from priests and other Catholics is something along the lines of "if they've heard of the Catholic church but choose not to get baptized than they cannot get salvation." With the size of the church and the ability of information to be shared in today's world, that essentially means that every one who is not Catholic cannot receive salvation.

This priest seems to have a more open interpretation and I really appreciated the next line after the bit I quoted above.

Only God knows the human heart, and only he alone can really judge the state of a soul.

I think this is absolutely correct and a lesson we often forget.

[buckchuckler]

Thanks for sharing. I think the crossroads for many people is described in your article here:

What I taught in Catholic school and the more common message I have gotten from priests and other Catholics is something along the lines of "if they've heard of the Catholic church but choose not to get baptized than they cannot get salvation." With the size of the church and the ability of information to be shared in today's world, that essentially means that every one who is not Catholic cannot receive salvation.

This priest seems to have a more open interpretation and I really appreciated the next line after the bit I quoted above.

I think this is absolutely correct and a lesson we often forget.

No problem.  And I am glad it was helpful.  I think a lot of the misunderstandings are because things are worded very particularly and that causes confusion.

To address the bolded, it is also my understanding that the Catholic Church recognizes all Christian Baptisms as validly Sacramental. 

[Jockey]

No problem.  And I am glad it was helpful.  I think a lot of the misunderstandings are because things are worded very particularly and that causes confusion.

To address the bolded, it is also my understanding that the Catholic Church recognizes all Christian Baptisms as validly Sacramental.

Chuckler, I wanna thank you for your replies here, as well as TAMU, Pakuni, and a few others.

Discussing religious beliefs is always a field filled with landmines, but you guys really answered a lot of the questions I had.

[buckchuckler]

Chuckler, I wanna thank you for your replies here, as well as TAMU, Pakuni, and a few others.

Discussing religious beliefs is always a field filled with landmines, but you guys really answered a lot of the questions I had.

You are welcome.  Not sure what I would call insight, but it is what is in my brain.

[WarriorDad]

One can support the causes of the church, helping the poor, the charitable works, the hospitals and the like, while still condemning the hierarchy.

We give donations, because the money is used for things we support.  It is one of the reasons why boycotting is not something we support, because it hurts other people, too.  Usually the people on the lower end.

[Lennys Tap]

You are right, they absolutely can share their beliefs and also right that I think in this area their beliefs are silly. One of the stories I was told about a couple who got up during this weekend to talk about the rhythm method and advocate for it, the couple had five kids but the wife had some form of cancer recently (I believe breast cancer but don't quote me) but was in remission. However if she got pregnant again the cancer would more than likely come back and yet they were still using the rhythm method. That is just completely bonkers in my mind. You add in things like the inventor of the birth control pill created it in such a way as intended to be a "natural" form of birth control and the Vatican altered it's definition of natural to mean no one can intercede in the physical act in anyway is also bonkers in my mind.

At the end of the day, I still struggle to understand how an organization (not just just a religion) has a fair number of rules/beliefs most people in the organization don't believe or adhere to AND it has an on-going scandal of the nature the Catholic church does and the members just keep chugging along. I'm not judging it, I respect everyone's faith, I'm just saying it doesn't make sense to ME. I also have no other connection to the Catholic faith then having attended a few masses as a kid because my mom wanted to me experience different religions and having attended MU....so I'm an outside to it and I get that.

For someone who's "not judging it" this post contains an awful lot of judgement.

[muwarrior69]

No problem.  And I am glad it was helpful.  I think a lot of the misunderstandings are because things are worded very particularly and that causes confusion.

To address the bolded, it is also my understanding that the Catholic Church recognizes all Christian Baptisms as validly Sacramental.

[/color]

Yet they don't recognize marriages, and I'm a practicing Catholic that still goes to weekly Mass.

[tower912]

Fact.  Before my 11 year old was baptized, and after nearly 15 years of marriage, the then new pastor of our parish was going to refuse to baptize him because my wife and I had not gotten married in a Catholic Church. Talk about silly.  I had an enjoyable 20 minutes insulting everything about that and trying to get him to answer whether my then 12 year old daughter's baptism was legitimate.   Ultimately, I jumped through the hoop.  But letting my post childbirth bride know that according to the church I could walk away clean was probably not wise.