Pennsylvania Grand Jury report on abuse

[mu03eng]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/14/us/catholic-church-sex-abuse-pennsylvania.html

I'm a little surprised that this hasn't been a topic here. I think all of the accusations/allegations are pre-2002 so this isn't a case of the Catholic Church continuing to cover up priest abuse, but I am completely baffled at how there can still be these things to dig up? How is rooting this out of the church and surfacing all the evil they've let happen not the number one priority in the US especially?

Full disclosure, I'm not Catholic so I've got some emotional distance from this if you will, but man, I don't get how one could continue to support such an institution that can't get in front of this.

[GooooMarquette]

I have long wondered the same thing. My guess is that people mentally dissociate the acts (and the people who commit them) from the church and its teachings. But if the teachers (priests) who committed these acts are effectively God’s messengers, that seems like a weak distinction...especially since this has happened many times before.

I struggle to see how anyone can expect real change as long as priests have to take the vow of celibacy. There will always be sexual abuse as long as there are differences in power among people, but adding the vow of celibacy only increases the risk.

[MUBurrow]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/14/us/catholic-church-sex-abuse-pennsylvania.html
 How is rooting this out of the church and surfacing all the evil they've let happen not the number one priority in the US especially?

My theory is that the real reason Rome isn't doing much about it is because they know its still happening on an equally or greater scale internationally.

[Babybluejeans]

I have long wondered the same thing. My guess is that people mentally dissociate the acts (and the people who commit them) from the church and its teachings. But if the teachers (priests) who committed these acts are effectively God’s messengers, that seems like a weak distinction...especially since this has happened many times before.

I struggle to see how anyone can expect real change as long as priests have to take the vow of celibacy. There will always be sexual abuse as long as there are differences in power among people, but adding the vow of celibacy only increases the risk.

It seems crazy that anyone would consider a priest "God's messenger." They're people. People who choose a vocation like any of us--it's just that their choice is commit wholly to their faith (or at least that's the presumptive purpose). That choice does not endow them with some unique ability for divine insight.

[GGGG]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/14/us/catholic-church-sex-abuse-pennsylvania.html

I'm a little surprised that this hasn't been a topic here. I think all of the accusations/allegations are pre-2002 so this isn't a case of the Catholic Church continuing to cover up priest abuse, but I am completely baffled at how there can still be these things to dig up? How is rooting this out of the church and surfacing all the evil they've let happen not the number one priority in the US especially?

Full disclosure, I'm not Catholic so I've got some emotional distance from this if you will, but man, I don't get how one could continue to support such an institution that can't get in front of this.

When you have organizations that have traditionally acted in secrecy and without people questioning their authority, this type of stuff is inevitable.

We've seen it with all sorts of organizations from USA Gymnastics to Louisville basketball.  Now take those organizations and multiply them by a billion in terms of size, scope and history, and you have the Catholic Church. 

And yes, the odd obsession with sex is part of the problem as well.

[mu03eng]

I have long wondered the same thing. My guess is that people mentally dissociate the acts (and the people who commit them) from the church and its teachings. But if the teachers (priests) who committed these acts are effectively God’s messengers, that seems like a weak distinction...especially since this has happened many times before.

I struggle to see how anyone can expect real change as long as priests have to take the vow of celibacy. There will always be sexual abuse as long as there are differences in power among people, but adding the vow of celibacy only increases the risk.

I agree with the first part and strongly disagree with the second part. I'm not sure how a vow of celibacy has anything to do with whether or not they are pedophiles unless the argument is that people who would pick a vocation where celibacy is a requirement are more likely to be pedophiles. Maybe I just can't wrap my head around the concept of "well I can't sleep with adult women or adult men....guess I'll have to fool around with kids". Long story short, I don't think the celibacy has anything to do with it...I think these are folks who would have had that predilection regardless of vocation. It's the enablers that blows my mind, I just don't understand how you aid and abet someone who has been found to do something so horrific multiple times.

[MUBurrow]

I agree with the first part and strongly disagree with the second part. I'm not sure how a vow of celibacy has anything to do with whether or not they are pedophiles unless the argument is that people who would pick a vocation where celibacy is a requirement are more likely to be pedophiles. Maybe I just can't wrap my head around the concept of "well I can't sleep with adult women or adult men....guess I'll have to fool around with kids". Long story short, I don't think the celibacy has anything to do with it...I think these are folks who would have had that predilection regardless of vocation. It's the enablers that blows my mind, I just don't understand how you aid and abet someone who has been found to do something so horrific multiple times.

I think the vow of celibacy can be attractive to people with sexual predilections that are deemed socially unacceptable.  And I don't think its even always a conscious choice, but the vow obviates the need for that person to explain or confront those sexual inclinations. Theoretically (dogmatically?) it also provides the brightest path for them to take a moral stand against those inclinations.  Most people probably wish they weren't that way - its a source of shame, and pursuing a life as a celibate priest is the best way to be different. In actuality, however, the underlying issues are never addressed, and they put themselves in positions to become predators.

[buckchuckler]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/14/us/catholic-church-sex-abuse-pennsylvania.html

 I don't get how one could continue to support such an institution that can't get in front of this.

Because if you are a person of faith, and you believe in what the Church teaches, especially the Sacraments, then why would you let evil men disrupt your relationship with God. 

[dgies9156]

When I was in high school, our Roman Catholic diocesean high school had a significant and real problem with priests who were pedophiaics. Their public behavior was enough to cause many of us, even at a ripe age of 14, to question their sanity and yet, no one listened. That said, I went to high school in the 1970s, when the problem was real and there were far fewer procedures for dealing with the problem then there are today.

A few lessons that I hope the church and the faithful has learned.

1) Children's compliants should not be dismissed out of hand. Probe as to why there is a problem and don't necessarily assume the children are wrong or the authority is right. That was a huge problem with parents, who thought priests were above misbehavior of any type.

2) The church has to realize that it serves the people. The faithful do not serve the church. Too much of the problem we had was the result of corporate "group think" and damage control that was organizational in nature. The church through the 1980s too often forgot their first job was to the faithful and not to the institution itself.

3) The Roman Catholic Church is a human organization and, as a collection of humans, is prone to mistakes and, dare I say it, sinfulness. Nonetheless, the Catholic Church as a group of people has done enormous good in recent years. It is one of the world's largest NGOs providing health care, education, sanitation and other social services. Sure it makes mistakes and will continue to do so, but in many ways, one can argue that much of the folks that make up the church are living the Gospel every day.

[mu03eng]

Because if you are a person of faith, and you believe in what the Church teaches, especially the Sacraments, then why would you let evil men disrupt your relationship with God.

Because at some point the institution via its corrupting evil can no longer provide said relationship. Further, it's the Lutheran in my, but why do you have to have an institution of fallible humans stand as a bridge to your relationship with God?

[Jockey]

Because if you are a person of faith, and you believe in what the Church teaches, especially the Sacraments, then why would you let evil men disrupt your relationship with God.

I agree with the poster you are responding too. The Catholic church is a massive criminal organization. 300 cases in just one state. Extrapolate that out to the entire country. Then add the rest of the world. we are probably talking tens of thousands of child molesters and rapists.  Bishop after bishop after Archbishop is complicit in this evil, organized crime spree. How can this be supported in any way?

I abandoned the church (not catholic) in the late 80's. Their response to the aids epidemic helped kill thousands and thousands of young men. They were complicit in these deaths and I was not going to be a part of that. Now, "christian churches once again are showing their callousness in this country.


My personal beliefs have not changed at all -only my affiliations

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I agree with the first part and strongly disagree with the second part. I'm not sure how a vow of celibacy has anything to do with whether or not they are pedophiles unless the argument is that people who would pick a vocation where celibacy is a requirement are more likely to be pedophiles. Maybe I just can't wrap my head around the concept of "well I can't sleep with adult women or adult men....guess I'll have to fool around with kids". Long story short, I don't think the celibacy has anything to do with it...I think these are folks who would have had that predilection regardless of vocation. It's the enablers that blows my mind, I just don't understand how you aid and abet someone who has been found to do something so horrific multiple times.

I think the vow of celibacy is related in a couple of ways though its definitely correlation not causation.

1. It limits the pool of available priests which limits the church's ability to be more selective with their hires
2. The vow of celibacy is a major barrier to non-pedophiles but may not seem like such a barrier to pedophiles
3. It contributes to the oppressive culture around sex in the church where people are afraid to mention what happens in the bedroom. This in turn shames victims and bystanders into silence.

[Lennys Tap]

I think the vow of celibacy can be attractive to people with sexual predilections that are deemed socially unacceptable.  And I don't think its even always a conscious choice, but the vow obviates the need for that person to explain or confront those sexual inclinations. Theoretically (dogmatically?) it also provides the brightest path for them to take a moral stand against those inclinations.  Most people probably wish they weren't that way - its a source of shame, and pursuing a life as a celibate priest is the best way to be different. In actuality, however, the underlying issues are never addressed, and they put themselves in positions to become predators.

I'm pretty much in agreement with '03 on this - on the face of it, celibacy has no connection whatsoever with pedophilia or ephebophilia. Your points are interesting, though, and likely have validity. But I think the most logical reasons that these people choose the priesthood (or coaching, boy scout leader, etc.) is access and authority/power. They know who they are and seek fertile ground for their obsessions/sickness. The fact that the Church is a large institution that "protects" itself makes it that much more attractive to these sick individuals.

[rocket surgeon]

  has anyone ever read the book "goodbye, good men"?

 celibacy is a red herring.  how would that keep these perverts from going after young kids?  to say that the church is pressured into filling the seminary's with sexually deviant males because if only they could get married...is a lazy answer.  my best analogy are the dentists who keep telling their patients they must have their wisdom teeth extracted to prevent their front teeth from becoming crowded.  it's been repeated for so long and so often, even some dentists believe it

i can be just as catholic or more than anyone by following the word of the lord as best as I know it.   i have come upon spirituality outside of the church as well as within.  priests can be as fallible as anyone.   there are bad apples in every walk of life.   

[buckchuckler]

To say the Catholic Church is evil is false.  Yes there are those among its members that are absolutely evil.  The above report is more than enough evidence.  The Catholic church also operates innumerable hospitals, schools, orphanages, soup kitchens food pantries and charities.  Recently, Catholic Charities (just one organization) has been donating around 4 Billion dollars per year since 2010 or so, that doesn't even count anything that happens on a parish level.  The Catholic Church is very likely the largest charitable organization in the world. 

One victim of the above abuse is too many.  The perpetrators of such heinous acts should be punished accordingly.  Those covering up such acts should be treated accordingly.   

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

One victim of the above abuse is too many.  The perpetrators of such heinous acts should be punished accordingly.  Those covering up such acts should be treated accordingly.

I agree with the first half that there is good being done. 

The issue/question in my mind is that the Catholic Church is a centrally run organization (like a corporation really) whose rotten culture was exposed.  It is hard to separate the people from the whole in that situation.  Further this is a global phenomenon...not a local or isolated event.

There were lots of good folks I’m sure at Enron and Union Carbide—but their cultures ultimately killed the whole. 

I hope the leadership can find a way to change the culture for the better and regain the trust of the people.   

[GGGG]

Catholic Charities is a part of the Catholic church like Marquette is right?  It's a separate organization run by its own Board of Directors and not the diocese.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Catholic Charities is a part of the Catholic church like Marquette is right?  It's a separate organization run by its own Board of Directors and not the diocese.

Correct.

Think of it more like United Way.  There is the umbrella organization and many local chapters or entities.

[MU82]

I'm pretty much in agreement with '03 on this - on the face of it, celibacy has no connection whatsoever with pedophilia or ephebophilia. Your points are interesting, though, and likely have validity. But I think the most logical reasons that these people choose the priesthood (or coaching, boy scout leader, etc.) is access and authority/power. They know who they are and seek fertile ground for their obsessions/sickness. The fact that the Church is a large institution that "protects" itself makes it that much more attractive to these sick individuals.

The celibacy discussion is very interesting.

I agree with the many sociologists, psychologists, criminal behaviorists, etc, who think this kind of behavior is far more about power and control than it is about sex.

But TAMU and a couple others make intriguing points about how celibacy could have some roundabout contributing effects on this whole issue.

One thing that's indisputable is that the Catholic Church has a shameful history on this issue.

[Benny B]

https://www.newsweek.com/priests-commit-no-more-abuse-other-males-70625

People can spin facts however best fits their agenda, but the stats say that when it comes to abuse, the Catholic Church seems to be representative of the general population.  Not that it’s any consolation, I’m sure, but one should recognize that these cases mostly, if not all, amount to behaviors of rogue actors, i.e. I haven’t seen one instance where a priest has hidden behind the cloak of “fundamentalism” and claimed their deeds were in some way promoted or permitted by the religion’s teachings.

When it comes to either isolated or systemic abuse within religious organizations adjusted to a “incidents per capita” basis, the Catholic Church probably doesn’t even make the top 10.  But because of its sheer size, it’s an easy, not to mention politically convenient, target.

That said, nothing excuses the abuse of children whether representative or not.  It’s heinous to read about the cover-ups and how many of these priests were simply shuttled around when their deeds came to light.  But one should be mindful of how wide the net of responsibility is cast for the unsanctioned acts of a few just because they all happen to share membership in the world’s largest religion.

[MU82]

https://www.newsweek.com/priests-commit-no-more-abuse-other-males-70625

People can spin facts however best fits their agenda, but the stats say that when it comes to abuse, the Catholic Church seems to be representative of the general population.  Not that it’s any consolation, I’m sure, but one should recognize that these cases mostly, if not all, amount to behaviors of rogue actors, i.e. I haven’t seen one instance where a priest has hidden behind the cloak of “fundamentalism” and claimed their deeds were in some way promoted or permitted by the religion’s teachings.

When it comes to either isolated or systemic abuse within religious organizations adjusted to a “incidents per capita” basis, the Catholic Church probably doesn’t even make the top 10.  But because of its sheer size, it’s an easy, not to mention politically convenient, target.

That all may be well and good, Benny, but these priests literally are held up as paragons of virtue. They literally are held up as men of God.

The pedophile baker or mailman or firefighter or journalist or politician is sickening enough, but none of them are being passed off as God's messenger. (Although lots of politicians pass themselves off as God's messengers, it's not the same thing.)

Even the pedophile teacher usually has to earn his prey's trust. Priests are automatically trusted simply because they are men of God.

So while I understand what you're saying, the incidents-per-capita stats you cite mean little IMHO.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The celibacy discussion is very interesting.

I agree with the many sociologists, psychologists, criminal behaviorists, etc, who think this kind of behavior is far more about power and control than it is about sex.

But TAMU and a couple others make intriguing points about how celibacy could have some roundabout contributing effects on this whole issue.

One thing that's indisputable is that the Catholic Church has a shameful history on this issue.

An unfortunate side effect of my occupation is that I get to read a lot of research on this very topic. Pedophiles can generally be separated into two categories. Opportunistic sexual predators and "True" pedophiles. The former is the much bigger group. They don't target children because they are attracted to them specifically but get off on the sense of power, control, and domination they can extract from their victims. Children just happen to be the easiest targets. These individuals in most cases are made and not born.

The second category, "True" pedophiles are individuals who are physically attracted to children. Well, even that is a misnomer, its not that they are attracted to people below a certain age but they are attracted to children's body types, usually the hairlessness. Many people don't like to categorize it this way, but really it is a sexual orientation. Most of these unfortunate wretches are born not made. Now don't get it twisted, these individuals are absolutely still responsible for their actions. An alcoholic who drinks and drives is still responsible regardless of the genetic disposition.

As others have already indicated, the scandal with the Catholic Church mostly has to do with sexual predators seeking out occupations that gives them power and control over easy victims. The oath of celibacy stuff is only tangential related IMHO. The biggest role it plays in this is the third reason I mentioned. It does contribute to a culture of shame around sexuality that may have led to victims and bystanders being silenced.

[Jockey]

I'm pretty much in agreement with '03 on this - on the face of it, celibacy has no connection whatsoever with pedophilia or ephebophilia. Your points are interesting, though, and likely have validity. But I think the most logical reasons that these people choose the priesthood (or coaching, boy scout leader, etc.) is access and authority/power. They know who they are and seek fertile ground for their obsessions/sickness. The fact that the Church is a large institution that "protects" itself makes it that much more attractive to these sick individuals.

I think you are on the right track here. I don't know how it has much to do with authority/power, however.

My last boss was catholic and went to a catholic high school. The church wants an early commitment from kids to be priests. Boys who like girls aren't the ones choosing to become priests, but rather the kids who don't fit in, whether because of their sexual orientation or social awkwardness. He was actually surprised that more priests weren't child molesters.

A solution? Has to be a total reformation of the Church. Ordaining women and getting rid of celibacy would change the dynamics of what type of people were going into priesthood. Telling priests to stop molesting children might be another priority.

Will it happen? Not a chance. The criminal creeps at the top of the church hierarchy have shown their overwhelming priority is to protect child rapists and line their coffers. And, of course, above all, pontificate about their own holiness while they attack adults who were raped as children by their employees.

[Lennys Tap]

That all may be well and good, Benny, but these priests literally are held up as paragons of virtue. They literally are held up as men of God.

The pedophile baker or mailman or firefighter or journalist or politician is sickening enough, but none of them are being passed off as God's messenger. (Although lots of politicians pass themselves off as God's messengers, it's not the same thing.)

Even the pedophile teacher usually has to earn his prey's trust. Priests are automatically trusted simply because they are men of God.

So while I understand what you're saying, the incidents-per-capita stats you cite mean little IMHO.

I don't know, Mike. Do you really think it matters to a child who's been sexually abused if his predator was a Catholic priest or an atheist Boy Scout leader? Or gymnast or football coach? I'm the first one to fault the church for what amounted to a massive cover up, but I don't agree that extra outrage should be assigned to priests, rabbis and ministers. They're sick, but no sicker than other pedophiles.

[Benny B]

That all may be well and good, Benny, but these priests literally are held up as paragons of virtue. They literally are held up as men of God.

The pedophile baker or mailman or firefighter or journalist or politician is sickening enough, but none of them are being passed off as God's messenger. (Although lots of politicians pass themselves off as God's messengers, it's not the same thing.)

Even the pedophile teacher usually has to earn his prey's trust. Priests are automatically trusted simply because they are men of God.

So while I understand what you're saying, the incidents-per-capita stats you cite mean little IMHO.

Re-read: incidents per capita within religious organizations.  Unless there’s some sort of Baker, Mailman and Journalist religion that sprang up overnight, you’re building straw men from hay in different barns.   

To be clear, in other religions, the perpetrators are oft held up as a deity of some manner, or at the very least, something more significant than a simple messenger.

Something that non-Catholics seem to overestimate is the role that priests and deacons play in the Catholic faith... Catholicism teaches us that we are all messengers of God.  And - in something of an ironic twist - the relationship of lower clergy to laypersons more closely resembles a “first among equals” view as opposed to a reverent, master-apprentice relationship.  Priests may be leaders of their parish, but it’s really more of a business leadership gig, i.e. priests are not held up as higher-level beings any more than the manager at Starbucks is revered as some all-knowing barista.

That said, to a pre-pubescent child, any adult - especially one that is recognized and respected by others - immediately commands trust.  An adult who exploits that trust for their own despicable means deserves no trust, respect, deference or otherwise.  But to say that it’s worse for a priest to perpetrate such acts because he’s perceived as a “paragon of virtue” is not only shortsighted but extremely marginalizing to victims whose - by your logic - own nightmare wasn’t as bad because their perpetrator simply happened to be a no-name, drunken New York brawler with a bunch of priors.