Wade's Ex-Teammate LeBron Passes Jordan for GOAT; 11:33 p.m. Tweet Makes Nev #1

[auburnmarquette]

http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2018/05/wades-ex-teammate-lebron-passes-jordan.html

pasted below, but the link is easier

What a 24 hours for basketball! But before we run through why LeBron James (who will always be tied to our Dwyane Wade) takes the court tonight at Golden State having passed Michael Jordan as the most valuable player of all time, let's talk about what happened just before the midnight deadline for players to return to their colleges rather than stay eligible for the NBA draft in three weeks ...


 

At 11:33 p.m. ET last night, Cody Martin tweeted that he would return to Nevada, and at 11:34 his twin Caleb Martin confirmed he would stay as well - beating the Midnight deadline for players to leave the NBA draft t return to school. Kentucky, Villanova, Tennessee, Maryland and Virginia Tech were not so lucky, losing players to drop in the www.valueaddbasketball.com top 25.

 

However, Kentucky's replacement players were so good that they actually remained the No. 3 team in the nation. Duke passed them for No. 2, but Villanova fell from No. 2 to No. 10 - with Kansas rounding out the projected Final Four. Here is the top 25 with notes on teams that lost players to the NBA once and for all at Midnight.

 

Team   Top 8 Value Add

1.   Nevada   52.98 – Cody and Caleb Martin announced return at 11:33 pm to keep them at No. 1 with 52.98 combined Value Add.

2.   Duke   46.65

3.   Kentucky   stayed in third despite 241st Vanderbilt (5.17) & 272nd Gabriel (4.93) dropping but being replaced by almost as good 9th and 10th men (8.22 combined Value Add) as Villanova dropped further and Duke moved ahead of Kentucky’s 45.33

4.   Kansas   42.26

5.   Oregon   41.52

6.   North Carolina   40.31

7.   Mississippi St.   40.05

8.   Louisiana St.   39.18

9.   Auburn   38.66

10.   Villanova   dropped from 2nd after 25th ranked Spellman (8.01 Value Add) & 32nd DiVincenzo, (7.84) both left and replacements are a combined 6.85 to lower team from 47.51 to 38.51

11.   Gonzaga   37.94

12.   Tennessee   dropped from 6th after Alexander, 5.89 left and with (1.25 replacement) lowered from 42.01 to 37.37

13.   Syracuse   37.44

14.   North Carolina St.   35.07

15.   Indiana   34.95

16.   Virginia   34.62

17.   Texas   34.28

18.   UCLA   34.26

19.   Kansas St.   34.16

20.   Michigan St.   33.63

21.   Marquette   33.13

22.   Maryland   39.36 – dropped from 9th after 33rd ranked Huerter (7.82) left and only a 1.23 replacement to lower from 39.36 to 32.77

23.   Florida   32.73

24.   Iowa   32.49

25.   Arizona St.   32.1 (moved from 26th to 25th due to Virginia Tech dropping out)

Dropped Out - Virginia Tech   33.49 – dropped from 21st to 33rd after 381th ranked Alexander-Walker (4.25 Value Add) left with only 1.32 replacement Value Add to drop from 33.49 to 30.85

 

... now back to the inconvenient truth that LeBron James takes the court tonight as the GOAT, at least if that means the most valuable player in the history of basketball. Now that all of my friends in North Carolina and Chicago have stopped reading, let's walk through this.

 

As Golden State opens as a double digit favorite in the opener of the NBA Finals, Michael Jordan fans are likely to still be able to cling to their one argument for his superiority over LeBron James - six championships.

 

This ignores the fact that Jordan was one of THREE Hall of Famers playing at HOF levels (one of those years all three were in the top 15 in MVP voting) were on the 4th, 5th and 6th championship, and that argument leaves Jordan behind Robert Horry (7 titles), a legitimate contender for the greatest of all-time in Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and many previous players who had more than six.

 

In this his 15th season, LeBron James was more than twice as valuable as Jordan was in his 15th and final season based on career Win Shares (the only way to truly compare players from different eras).

 

In fact, in his five seasons without Hall of Famer Scottie Pippen on the court with him, Jordan never even had a winning season, averaging just 30 wins and 52 losses. Jordan apologists complained when James went to Miami to likewise team up with a future Hall of Fame Player in Marquette's Dwyane Wade - but James did not need a Hall of Fame teammate to make his teams awesome - averaging a 51-31 record in the years before and after he and Wade teamed up.

 

So when they had to carry their teams without the help of another Hall of Fame player, James’ teams were 21 wins better than Jordan's teams.

 

It is also fair to note that while Pippen finished 5th, 7th and 9th in MVP voting three of his years with Jordan, and in one year Dennis Rodman gave Jordan TWO teammates in the top 15 in voting - only one season has LeBron ever had a top 9 teammate (Wade 7th, as his best player was prior to James' arrival). In short, Jordan never produced nearly the same results as Jordan EXCEPT when he had Hall of Fame support far superior to the poor cast James dragged to the NBA Finals some of his years.

 

The three years before Jordan arrived in Chicago, the Bulls averaged a 36-46 record. Jordan played three seasons before another Hall of Fame player arrived, and during his three years befoer adding Pippen Jordan's teams averaged the identical 36-46 record. Jordan scored a lot - but his team was no better with him until another Hall of Famer came along.

 

Compare this to the transformation of the Cavs after James’ arrival. The Cavs prior to James were far worse than the Bulls prior to Jordan, with a 17-65 record. For an apples to apples, they averaged 25-67 in the 3 years prior to James arrival (11 games worse than the pre-Jordan Bulls), yet in their first three years with James the averaged 42-40 for a 17 average improvement in wins to ZERO for Jordan.

 

Jordan did not lead his team to a winning record until he was 25 and Pippen had arrived - but by age 25 James finished his seventh season having taken his Cavs to an average mark of 50-32 before leaving to Miami to team up with a player almost at Pippen’s level in Wade.

 

The difference continued throughout their careers. In the years before or after James and Jordan left and arrived, James’ teams averaged being 22 games better with him than without him and Jordan's teams did not improve at all until an extra Hall of Famer was added to the roster.

 

The dreadful Cavs improved 18 games as soon as the teenager James took the court. When he went from the Cavs to the Heat the Cavs lost 42 more games and the Heat won 11 more games. When he went back to the Cavs they won 20 more games and the Heat lost 17 more, for an average of 22 more wins a season with than without James.

 

Season

LeBron arriving or departing

W

L

Before and After

2003-04

Cleveland Cavaliers

35

47

18

2009-10

Cleveland Cavaliers

61

21

42

2010-11

Miami Heat

58

24

11

2013-14

Miami Heat

54

28

17

2014-15

Cleveland Cavaliers

53

29

20

 

Teams 22 games better w/LeBron

 

 

22



Contrast this with the amazing lack of difference Jordan’s departures and returns made. When he arrived from UNC he made the Bulls one game worse at 27-55, and as noted did not improve them one game over his first three years. When he took the 1993-94 season off the Bulls were only two games worse.

 

James critics will note that Jordan then came back for only part of the 1994-95 season, but he was there for the entire playoffs and the team did just as well as they did the year before without him - a loss in the Conference Semifinals. The next year they had a monster year - but remember that was only after adding a THIRD Hall of Fame Player in Dennis Rodman to the them.

 

And then Jordan played his final two seasons with the Wizards’ - his 14th and 15th seasons, but unlike James’ 14th and 15th seasons he was simply not very good, getting a couple of MVP mentions the first year and then having a nice farewell tour. The Wizards’ were 10 games worse when he arrived, and just as good the year after he left.

 

That means the only time a team was more than two games better the year after or before Jordan left was after the 1997-98 season - WHEN ALL THREE HALL OF FAME PLAYERS LEFT AT ONCE.



Season

Jordan arriving or departing

W

L

Before and After

1983-84

Chicago Bulls

27

55

-1

1992-93

Chicago Bulls

57

25

2

1994-95

Chicago Bulls

47

35

-8

1997-98

Chicago Bulls***

62

20

41

2000-01

Washington Wizards

19

63

-10

2001-02

Washington Wizards

37

45

0

 

Teams 4 games better w/Jordan

 

 

4



*** because of the 1998-99 strike, the Bulls record is projected with 21 wins



Jordan was an incredible leader of teams with other Hall of Fame players, and he knew how to close when his teammates were superior to all the opponents they would face. I will even grant that his three best seasons may have been slightly better than any of James' seasons.

 

However, James’ ability to take teams that should not be in the playoffs all the way to the NBA Finals time and time again is a much dramatic than Jordan’s ability to make sure his Hall of Fame teammates did not blow championships.

 

James passed Jordan and he is still playing strong.

 

Unless you want to argue that Horry is greater than Jordan because of the extra championship, it is time to admit there is a new all time King.

 

[WarriorFan]

Great analysis, excellent perspective, good supporting facts. 


Jordan is the GOAT.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Great stuff about James and Jordan.

The only thing I would change is dropping the season comparisons.  Lebron's 15th season is his age 33 season, while Jordan was 39 in his 15th season.

Jordan's age 33 season was 1996-97.  That would be the apples to apples comparison for James 2017-18 season.

Baseball takes age into account when comparing baseball prospects.  For example, let's say two players in AA have similar stats.  But one is 21 and the other is 24.  The 21 year old is considered the better prospect because he has more upside growth potential.

The expectation would be for the 21 year old to be well beyond AA by age 24, compared to the other prospect that is in AA for his age 24 season.

[lawdog77]

NICE ANALYSIS...SUPERBAR ON THE NBA STUFF?

[Silkk the Shaka]

Awesome updates post-draft, I really like how we're set up for the coming year. Experience + talent + cohesion + slightly down year for Big East = fun season. Legit chance to see the 2nd weened in the tourney

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Hey Auburn, where are you seeing that Alexander left Tennessee and Alexander-Walker left Virginia Tech? As far as I can tell, both are set to return next season.

[MerrittsMustache]

Very good analysis, though it's incomplete.

You ignore the fact that LeBron is taking average teams to the Finals in an incredibly mediocre conference. The current Cavs team might not even be better than the Price/Dougherty/Ehlo/Nance Cavs teams of the early 90s who never made it to the Finals. Do you think LeBron is winning the East 8 straight seasons if he's going against the Riley-led Knicks or Heat year after year? Orlando and Indiana also had some teams that were better than anyone currently in the East. In Jordan's era, half of the league wasn't tanking either.

Don't get me wrong, LeBron going to 8 straight Finals is all kinds of impressive and he is firmly entrenched in the #2 spot all-time. He's simply not better nor more valuable than Michael Jordan.

[Galway Eagle]

Why we always gotta compare can't we appreciate greatness when we see it? I can think of 5 players that realistically could all have verifiable claims as the Greatest of their eras but when rules change and competition changes you can't really say one is better than another

[Dr. Blackheart]

How would have Bron, Bron done in this era?

<a href="https://youtube.com/v/fv6dTJmG2Lk" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://youtube.com/v/fv6dTJmG2Lk</a>

[Silkk the Shaka]

Why we always gotta compare can't we appreciate greatness when we see it? I can think of 5 players that realistically could all have verifiable claims as the Greatest of their eras but when rules change and competition changes you can't really say one is better than another

Agreed, the insatiable need for LeBron fans to have everyone agree that LeBron is the best, or that "if LeBron does XYZ, you have to admit he's the best" or "if he had XYZ's teammates, he'd win every year" is grating. Magic won an NCAA championship in his only college season, went to 9 finals, and won 5 NBA titles before he got sick after his 12th season. Somehow he's just glossed over by LeBron & Jordan fans alike. That's just one example off the top of my head. There are tons of all-time greats!

[Its DJOver]

Agreed, the insatiable need for LeBron fans to have everyone agree that LeBron is the best, or that "if LeBron does XYZ, you have to admit he's the best" or "if he had XYZ's teammates, he'd win every year" is grating. Magic won an NCAA championship in his only college season, went to 9 finals, and won 5 NBA titles before he got sick after his 12th season. Somehow he's just glossed over by LeBron & Jordan fans alike. That's just one example off the top of my head. There are tons of all-time greats!

+1 and I'll throw Russell into the mix as well.  Another case of different era but the dude literally doesn't have enough fingers for all his rings and almost 25 rpg in the playoffs is just absurd.

[#UnleashSean]

How would have Bron, Bron done in this era?

<a href="https://youtube.com/v/fv6dTJmG2Lk" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://youtube.com/v/fv6dTJmG2Lk</a>

Probably pretty well since he's a monster compared to 90% of them.

[KampusFoods]

Probably pretty well since he's a monster compared to 90% of them.

THANK YOU

[Jockey]

How would have Bron, Bron done in this era?

<a href="https://youtube.com/v/fv6dTJmG2Lk" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://youtube.com/v/fv6dTJmG2Lk</a>

Lebron is bigger and stronger. He would have dominated.

[MerrittsMustache]

Agreed, the insatiable need for LeBron fans to have everyone agree that LeBron is the best, or that "if LeBron does XYZ, you have to admit he's the best" or "if he had XYZ's teammates, he'd win every year" is grating. Magic won an NCAA championship in his only college season, went to 9 finals, and won 5 NBA titles before he got sick after his 12th season. Somehow he's just glossed over by LeBron & Jordan fans alike. That's just one example off the top of my head. There are tons of all-time greats!

Magic Johnson is the rare player who is universally considered to be an all-time great while also being slightly underrated. When his career basically ended, he was only 31 and had just averaged 19 points, 12.5 assists and 7 boards a game for a 58-win team that had gone to the Finals. He had on-going knee issues but he also had some high-level basketball left in him. I actually think that his legacy was hurt by the visual of retiring right after losing to Jordan in the Finals.

[Floorslapper]

Jordan became an icon and made the sport of basketball the global game its become.  His talent, style, charisma, swagger were unmatched and are still unmatched in my opinion. 

Having said all of that, on a purely basketball standpoint (not the charisma, style, swagger elements), I'm slowly converting to the camp that LeBron is the greatest of all time. 

The original post is certainly makes a credible case for LeBron being the best.

[MomofMUltiples]

What's the obsession with the greatest of all time?  Does it matter?  For me, Jordan was my first sense of a basketball superstar.  I believe he set the definition for superstars today - in both performance and marketing.  For folks on this board who weren't into the NBA when Jordan played, it is probably LeBron.  Weighing statistics and counting finals rings  is worthless, because greatness is in the eye of the beholder.  I will always think of Jordan as the greatest and the Dream Team as the only Dream Team.  Trying to compare greatness across eras doesn't make sense, in my opinion.

[Galway Eagle]

What's the obsession with the greatest of all time?  Does it matter?  For me, Jordan was my first sense of a basketball superstar.  I believe he set the definition for superstars today - in both performance and marketing.  For folks on this board who weren't into the NBA when Jordan played, it is probably LeBron.  Weighing statistics and counting finals rings  is worthless, because greatness is in the eye of the beholder.  I will always think of Jordan as the greatest and the Dream Team as the only Dream Team.  Trying to compare greatness across eras doesn't make sense, in my opinion.

This

[Lighthouse 84]

I saw this the other day and still think it more accurately reflects the comparison, though it's all still opinion, no matter whose information you use or believe:

Jordan vs LeBron

Updated after Lebrons 14th season. Michael Jordan has:
•3 more rings
•3 more final mvps
•1 more DPOY
•1 more season MVP
•9 more scoring titles
•3 more steals leader
•3 more all defensive team selections
•4000 more points / bron moved past him in playoff points, but it took him longer.
•800 more steals
•Beat 20 50+ win teams in the playoffs (Lebron only defeated 10)
•Jordan never averaged less than 40% Field Goal in the finals
Lebron did it twice
•6/6 (never allowed a game 7)
•Lebron had much more offensive help, example:
Jordan never had a teammate average more than 22 points in the finals.. In fact, Mj is Only player in NBA history to lead a team to the championship with only one teammate averaging double figures in scoring
* In the Bulls’ 1997 playoff run, Scottie Pippen averaged 19 points per game on 42% shooting. All other teammates of Jordan averaged under 8 points per game
Kyrie averaged over 28 and DWade averaged more than 26
•MJ never ever had a finals meltdown like Lebron in 2011 against the Mavs
•MJ had more points in the playoffs in less games..
MJ accomplished all of this in 13 seasons
Lebron after his 14th season, is still chasing the “ghost (GOAT) that played in Chicago”
•Michael Jordan in the playoffs has put up atleast 40ppg, 5rpg, 5apg in 6 different playoff series. Along with an average of about 55% shooting, 3spg and 2bpg.
(86 vs bos, 89 vs cavs, 90 vs philly, 92 vs Miami, 93 vs Phoenix, 88 vs cavs) Jordan won every one of those matchups except for the 1986 matchup vs the celtics.
•Jordan in 88-89 averaged 32ppg, 8apg, 8rpg, 3spg off 54% shooting. LeBron has never even came close to this stat line.
•in 87 thru 92, MJ averaged 5 straight seasons of atleast 51% FG shooting. LeBron has never done this.
•the lowest FT% MJ ever shot in a season was 78%. Lebrons highest in a season ever is 78%.
•MJ has a higher playoff FG% of 48.7% to Lebrons 48.3%
•MJ has a higher playoff player efficiency rating of 28.6 to Lebrons 27.3.
•MJ shoots a higher playoff 3 point percentage of 33.2% to Lebrons 32.9%
•LeBron James has scored 30 points, 416 times in 1,117 games.
Michael Jordan did it 562 times in 1,072 games.
Jordan won 6 championships without losing a final in 1,072 games and LeBron in 1,117 games has lost 5 times and has only won 3 times (updated 2018)
•MJ also shocked the league by being the first (and only) player to have 100 blocks and 200 steals in the same season, then turned around and did it again the next year..
•Mj also has more career blocks (893) than Lebron James (853) despite playing in 22 LESS career games and being the smaller guy.
Also, MJ averaged 1.6 blocks per game in the 1987-88 season which is absolutely bonkers for a 6’6″ shooting guard.
Seriously this list can keep going. This isn’t even a debate. Mj is the GOAT.
MIchael Jordan:
•NBA record 5 playoffs series’ averaging atleast 40ppg
•Only player in history to lead league in scoring and win DPOY
•Highest scoring average, points per game, in any championship series:
41.0 vs. Phoenix Suns, 1993 NBA Finals
•Only rookie in NBA history to lead his team in four statistics (1984–85)
•Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring, win Most Valuable Player, and Defensive Player of the Year in the same season (1987–88)
•Only player in history to average at least 30pts 6reb 5assists And 2 steals per game AND HE DID IT 7 TIMES.
•Only player in NBA history to win Rookie of the Year (1984–85), Defensive Player of the Year (1987–88), NBA MVP (1987–88, 1990–91, 1991–92, 1995–96, 1997–98), All-Star MVP (1988, 1996, 1998), and Finals MVP (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998)
•Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring and win the NBA championship MORE THAN ONCE in the same season
* He did this SIX TIMES!! (1990–91, 1991–92, 1992–93, 1995–96, 1996–97, 1997–98)
•One of two players in NBA history to score 3,000 points in a season: 3,041 points scored in 82 games played (37.1 ppg) (1986–87)
* Wilt Chamberlain is the only other player to achieve this.
•MJ is also the only player in NBA history to score over 40 points at age 40, and he did it twice!
•In 1988, MJ earned: Dunk Champ, All Star Game MVP, NBA Scoring Title, League MVP and Defensive Player of the Year.
Michael in only ELEVEN complete seasons with the Bulls:
-10 scoring titles,
-Won Defensive Player of the Year,
-9 times all defensive team,
-9time All NBA,
-5 league MVPs
-6 finals MVPs
All 11 seasons. Mj has done in 11 seasons things Lebron hasn’t done and won’t do in his whole career…

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

I look at trying to name the GOAT as a fun debate.  I don't take it too seriously but I can see the viewpoints of those who think it doesn't matter or comparing across eras being difficult.  The game changes with time, plus it is hard to have an opinion of players you never see.

That said, I'll vote Kareem as the GOAT (even though I only saw the later part of his career).

6 titles
10 Finals
6 MVPs
2 Finals MVPs
#1 all time scoring
#1 all time win shares (career)
#1 win shares (single season)
3 of top 7 single season win shares (Jordan's best was 9th)

[MerrittsMustache]

•Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring, win Most Valuable Player, and Defensive Player of the Year in the same season (1987–88)

This is pretty incredible stat. It also wouldn't surprise me to see Anthony Davis join him in this category before all is said and done.

[Silkk the Shaka]

I look at trying to name the GOAT as a fun debate.  I don't take it too seriously but I can see the viewpoints of those who think it doesn't matter or comparing across eras being difficult.  The game changes with time, plus it is hard to have an opinion of players you never see.

That said, I'll vote Kareem as the GOAT (even though I only saw the later part of his career).

6 titles
10 Finals
6 MVPs
2 Finals MVPs
#1 all time scoring
#1 all time win shares (career)
#1 win shares (single season)
3 of top 7 single season win shares (Jordan's best was 9th)

And 3/3 NCAA titles, 3 NCAA tourney MOP's, with only 2 collegiate regular season losses (one while he played)

[Jockey]

I look at trying to name the GOAT as a fun debate.  I don't take it too seriously but I can see the viewpoints of those who think it doesn't matter or comparing across eras being difficult.  The game changes with time, plus it is hard to have an opinion of players you never see.

That said, I'll vote Kareem as the GOAT (even though I only saw the later part of his career).

6 titles
10 Finals
6 MVPs
2 Finals MVPs
#1 all time scoring
#1 all time win shares (career)
#1 win shares (single season)
3 of top 7 single season win shares (Jordan's best was 9th)

A case can easily be made for Kareem. We think of Olajuwon as a great player, but his best Win Shares season was only 60% of Kareem's best year.

A young Kareem was stunning - in college there was no way to stop him, so they changed the rules to do so. Much as they did with Wilt in the NBA.

[MUBigDance]

..... Magic won an NCAA championship in his only college season...

Two seasons...not a big deal...point taken. He's a contender. I've from Michigan and followed MSU pretty close those years.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Two seasons...not a big deal...point taken. He's a contender. I've from Michigan and followed MSU pretty close those years.

I stand corrected!