Wade's Ex-Teammate LeBron Passes Jordan for GOAT; 11:33 p.m. Tweet Makes Nev #1

[auburnmarquette]

http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2018/05/wades-ex-teammate-lebron-passes-jordan.html

pasted below, but the link is easier

What a 24 hours for basketball! But before we run through why LeBron James (who will always be tied to our Dwyane Wade) takes the court tonight at Golden State having passed Michael Jordan as the most valuable player of all time, let's talk about what happened just before the midnight deadline for players to return to their colleges rather than stay eligible for the NBA draft in three weeks ...


 

At 11:33 p.m. ET last night, Cody Martin tweeted that he would return to Nevada, and at 11:34 his twin Caleb Martin confirmed he would stay as well - beating the Midnight deadline for players to leave the NBA draft t return to school. Kentucky, Villanova, Tennessee, Maryland and Virginia Tech were not so lucky, losing players to drop in the www.valueaddbasketball.com top 25.

 

However, Kentucky's replacement players were so good that they actually remained the No. 3 team in the nation. Duke passed them for No. 2, but Villanova fell from No. 2 to No. 10 - with Kansas rounding out the projected Final Four. Here is the top 25 with notes on teams that lost players to the NBA once and for all at Midnight.

 

Team   Top 8 Value Add

1.   Nevada   52.98 – Cody and Caleb Martin announced return at 11:33 pm to keep them at No. 1 with 52.98 combined Value Add.

2.   Duke   46.65

3.   Kentucky   stayed in third despite 241st Vanderbilt (5.17) & 272nd Gabriel (4.93) dropping but being replaced by almost as good 9th and 10th men (8.22 combined Value Add) as Villanova dropped further and Duke moved ahead of Kentucky’s 45.33

4.   Kansas   42.26

5.   Oregon   41.52

6.   North Carolina   40.31

7.   Mississippi St.   40.05

8.   Louisiana St.   39.18

9.   Auburn   38.66

10.   Villanova   dropped from 2nd after 25th ranked Spellman (8.01 Value Add) & 32nd DiVincenzo, (7.84) both left and replacements are a combined 6.85 to lower team from 47.51 to 38.51

11.   Gonzaga   37.94

12.   Tennessee   dropped from 6th after Alexander, 5.89 left and with (1.25 replacement) lowered from 42.01 to 37.37

13.   Syracuse   37.44

14.   North Carolina St.   35.07

15.   Indiana   34.95

16.   Virginia   34.62

17.   Texas   34.28

18.   UCLA   34.26

19.   Kansas St.   34.16

20.   Michigan St.   33.63

21.   Marquette   33.13

22.   Maryland   39.36 – dropped from 9th after 33rd ranked Huerter (7.82) left and only a 1.23 replacement to lower from 39.36 to 32.77

23.   Florida   32.73

24.   Iowa   32.49

25.   Arizona St.   32.1 (moved from 26th to 25th due to Virginia Tech dropping out)

Dropped Out - Virginia Tech   33.49 – dropped from 21st to 33rd after 381th ranked Alexander-Walker (4.25 Value Add) left with only 1.32 replacement Value Add to drop from 33.49 to 30.85

 

... now back to the inconvenient truth that LeBron James takes the court tonight as the GOAT, at least if that means the most valuable player in the history of basketball. Now that all of my friends in North Carolina and Chicago have stopped reading, let's walk through this.

 

As Golden State opens as a double digit favorite in the opener of the NBA Finals, Michael Jordan fans are likely to still be able to cling to their one argument for his superiority over LeBron James - six championships.

 

This ignores the fact that Jordan was one of THREE Hall of Famers playing at HOF levels (one of those years all three were in the top 15 in MVP voting) were on the 4th, 5th and 6th championship, and that argument leaves Jordan behind Robert Horry (7 titles), a legitimate contender for the greatest of all-time in Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and many previous players who had more than six.

 

In this his 15th season, LeBron James was more than twice as valuable as Jordan was in his 15th and final season based on career Win Shares (the only way to truly compare players from different eras).

 

In fact, in his five seasons without Hall of Famer Scottie Pippen on the court with him, Jordan never even had a winning season, averaging just 30 wins and 52 losses. Jordan apologists complained when James went to Miami to likewise team up with a future Hall of Fame Player in Marquette's Dwyane Wade - but James did not need a Hall of Fame teammate to make his teams awesome - averaging a 51-31 record in the years before and after he and Wade teamed up.

 

So when they had to carry their teams without the help of another Hall of Fame player, James’ teams were 21 wins better than Jordan's teams.

 

It is also fair to note that while Pippen finished 5th, 7th and 9th in MVP voting three of his years with Jordan, and in one year Dennis Rodman gave Jordan TWO teammates in the top 15 in voting - only one season has LeBron ever had a top 9 teammate (Wade 7th, as his best player was prior to James' arrival). In short, Jordan never produced nearly the same results as Jordan EXCEPT when he had Hall of Fame support far superior to the poor cast James dragged to the NBA Finals some of his years.

 

The three years before Jordan arrived in Chicago, the Bulls averaged a 36-46 record. Jordan played three seasons before another Hall of Fame player arrived, and during his three years befoer adding Pippen Jordan's teams averaged the identical 36-46 record. Jordan scored a lot - but his team was no better with him until another Hall of Famer came along.

 

Compare this to the transformation of the Cavs after James’ arrival. The Cavs prior to James were far worse than the Bulls prior to Jordan, with a 17-65 record. For an apples to apples, they averaged 25-67 in the 3 years prior to James arrival (11 games worse than the pre-Jordan Bulls), yet in their first three years with James the averaged 42-40 for a 17 average improvement in wins to ZERO for Jordan.

 

Jordan did not lead his team to a winning record until he was 25 and Pippen had arrived - but by age 25 James finished his seventh season having taken his Cavs to an average mark of 50-32 before leaving to Miami to team up with a player almost at Pippen’s level in Wade.

 

The difference continued throughout their careers. In the years before or after James and Jordan left and arrived, James’ teams averaged being 22 games better with him than without him and Jordan's teams did not improve at all until an extra Hall of Famer was added to the roster.

 

The dreadful Cavs improved 18 games as soon as the teenager James took the court. When he went from the Cavs to the Heat the Cavs lost 42 more games and the Heat won 11 more games. When he went back to the Cavs they won 20 more games and the Heat lost 17 more, for an average of 22 more wins a season with than without James.

 

Season

LeBron arriving or departing

W

L

Before and After

2003-04

Cleveland Cavaliers

35

47

18

2009-10

Cleveland Cavaliers

61

21

42

2010-11

Miami Heat

58

24

11

2013-14

Miami Heat

54

28

17

2014-15

Cleveland Cavaliers

53

29

20

 

Teams 22 games better w/LeBron

 

 

22



Contrast this with the amazing lack of difference Jordan’s departures and returns made. When he arrived from UNC he made the Bulls one game worse at 27-55, and as noted did not improve them one game over his first three years. When he took the 1993-94 season off the Bulls were only two games worse.

 

James critics will note that Jordan then came back for only part of the 1994-95 season, but he was there for the entire playoffs and the team did just as well as they did the year before without him - a loss in the Conference Semifinals. The next year they had a monster year - but remember that was only after adding a THIRD Hall of Fame Player in Dennis Rodman to the them.

 

And then Jordan played his final two seasons with the Wizards’ - his 14th and 15th seasons, but unlike James’ 14th and 15th seasons he was simply not very good, getting a couple of MVP mentions the first year and then having a nice farewell tour. The Wizards’ were 10 games worse when he arrived, and just as good the year after he left.

 

That means the only time a team was more than two games better the year after or before Jordan left was after the 1997-98 season - WHEN ALL THREE HALL OF FAME PLAYERS LEFT AT ONCE.



Season

Jordan arriving or departing

W

L

Before and After

1983-84

Chicago Bulls

27

55

-1

1992-93

Chicago Bulls

57

25

2

1994-95

Chicago Bulls

47

35

-8

1997-98

Chicago Bulls***

62

20

41

2000-01

Washington Wizards

19

63

-10

2001-02

Washington Wizards

37

45

0

 

Teams 4 games better w/Jordan

 

 

4



*** because of the 1998-99 strike, the Bulls record is projected with 21 wins



Jordan was an incredible leader of teams with other Hall of Fame players, and he knew how to close when his teammates were superior to all the opponents they would face. I will even grant that his three best seasons may have been slightly better than any of James' seasons.

 

However, James’ ability to take teams that should not be in the playoffs all the way to the NBA Finals time and time again is a much dramatic than Jordan’s ability to make sure his Hall of Fame teammates did not blow championships.

 

James passed Jordan and he is still playing strong.

 

Unless you want to argue that Horry is greater than Jordan because of the extra championship, it is time to admit there is a new all time King.

 

[WarriorFan]

Great analysis, excellent perspective, good supporting facts. 


Jordan is the GOAT.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Great stuff about James and Jordan.

The only thing I would change is dropping the season comparisons.  Lebron's 15th season is his age 33 season, while Jordan was 39 in his 15th season.

Jordan's age 33 season was 1996-97.  That would be the apples to apples comparison for James 2017-18 season.

Baseball takes age into account when comparing baseball prospects.  For example, let's say two players in AA have similar stats.  But one is 21 and the other is 24.  The 21 year old is considered the better prospect because he has more upside growth potential.

The expectation would be for the 21 year old to be well beyond AA by age 24, compared to the other prospect that is in AA for his age 24 season.

[lawdog77]

NICE ANALYSIS...SUPERBAR ON THE NBA STUFF?

[Silkk the Shaka]

Awesome updates post-draft, I really like how we're set up for the coming year. Experience + talent + cohesion + slightly down year for Big East = fun season. Legit chance to see the 2nd weened in the tourney

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Hey Auburn, where are you seeing that Alexander left Tennessee and Alexander-Walker left Virginia Tech? As far as I can tell, both are set to return next season.

[MerrittsMustache]

Very good analysis, though it's incomplete.

You ignore the fact that LeBron is taking average teams to the Finals in an incredibly mediocre conference. The current Cavs team might not even be better than the Price/Dougherty/Ehlo/Nance Cavs teams of the early 90s who never made it to the Finals. Do you think LeBron is winning the East 8 straight seasons if he's going against the Riley-led Knicks or Heat year after year? Orlando and Indiana also had some teams that were better than anyone currently in the East. In Jordan's era, half of the league wasn't tanking either.

Don't get me wrong, LeBron going to 8 straight Finals is all kinds of impressive and he is firmly entrenched in the #2 spot all-time. He's simply not better nor more valuable than Michael Jordan.

[Galway Eagle]

Why we always gotta compare can't we appreciate greatness when we see it? I can think of 5 players that realistically could all have verifiable claims as the Greatest of their eras but when rules change and competition changes you can't really say one is better than another

[Dr. Blackheart]

How would have Bron, Bron done in this era?

<a href="https://youtube.com/v/fv6dTJmG2Lk" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://youtube.com/v/fv6dTJmG2Lk</a>

[Silkk the Shaka]

Why we always gotta compare can't we appreciate greatness when we see it? I can think of 5 players that realistically could all have verifiable claims as the Greatest of their eras but when rules change and competition changes you can't really say one is better than another

Agreed, the insatiable need for LeBron fans to have everyone agree that LeBron is the best, or that "if LeBron does XYZ, you have to admit he's the best" or "if he had XYZ's teammates, he'd win every year" is grating. Magic won an NCAA championship in his only college season, went to 9 finals, and won 5 NBA titles before he got sick after his 12th season. Somehow he's just glossed over by LeBron & Jordan fans alike. That's just one example off the top of my head. There are tons of all-time greats!

[Its DJOver]

Agreed, the insatiable need for LeBron fans to have everyone agree that LeBron is the best, or that "if LeBron does XYZ, you have to admit he's the best" or "if he had XYZ's teammates, he'd win every year" is grating. Magic won an NCAA championship in his only college season, went to 9 finals, and won 5 NBA titles before he got sick after his 12th season. Somehow he's just glossed over by LeBron & Jordan fans alike. That's just one example off the top of my head. There are tons of all-time greats!

+1 and I'll throw Russell into the mix as well.  Another case of different era but the dude literally doesn't have enough fingers for all his rings and almost 25 rpg in the playoffs is just absurd.

[#UnleashSean]

How would have Bron, Bron done in this era?

<a href="https://youtube.com/v/fv6dTJmG2Lk" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://youtube.com/v/fv6dTJmG2Lk</a>

Probably pretty well since he's a monster compared to 90% of them.

[KampusFoods]

Probably pretty well since he's a monster compared to 90% of them.

THANK YOU

[Jockey]

How would have Bron, Bron done in this era?

<a href="https://youtube.com/v/fv6dTJmG2Lk" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://youtube.com/v/fv6dTJmG2Lk</a>

Lebron is bigger and stronger. He would have dominated.

[MerrittsMustache]

Agreed, the insatiable need for LeBron fans to have everyone agree that LeBron is the best, or that "if LeBron does XYZ, you have to admit he's the best" or "if he had XYZ's teammates, he'd win every year" is grating. Magic won an NCAA championship in his only college season, went to 9 finals, and won 5 NBA titles before he got sick after his 12th season. Somehow he's just glossed over by LeBron & Jordan fans alike. That's just one example off the top of my head. There are tons of all-time greats!

Magic Johnson is the rare player who is universally considered to be an all-time great while also being slightly underrated. When his career basically ended, he was only 31 and had just averaged 19 points, 12.5 assists and 7 boards a game for a 58-win team that had gone to the Finals. He had on-going knee issues but he also had some high-level basketball left in him. I actually think that his legacy was hurt by the visual of retiring right after losing to Jordan in the Finals.

[Floorslapper]

Jordan became an icon and made the sport of basketball the global game its become.  His talent, style, charisma, swagger were unmatched and are still unmatched in my opinion. 

Having said all of that, on a purely basketball standpoint (not the charisma, style, swagger elements), I'm slowly converting to the camp that LeBron is the greatest of all time. 

The original post is certainly makes a credible case for LeBron being the best.

[MomofMUltiples]

What's the obsession with the greatest of all time?  Does it matter?  For me, Jordan was my first sense of a basketball superstar.  I believe he set the definition for superstars today - in both performance and marketing.  For folks on this board who weren't into the NBA when Jordan played, it is probably LeBron.  Weighing statistics and counting finals rings  is worthless, because greatness is in the eye of the beholder.  I will always think of Jordan as the greatest and the Dream Team as the only Dream Team.  Trying to compare greatness across eras doesn't make sense, in my opinion.

[Galway Eagle]

What's the obsession with the greatest of all time?  Does it matter?  For me, Jordan was my first sense of a basketball superstar.  I believe he set the definition for superstars today - in both performance and marketing.  For folks on this board who weren't into the NBA when Jordan played, it is probably LeBron.  Weighing statistics and counting finals rings  is worthless, because greatness is in the eye of the beholder.  I will always think of Jordan as the greatest and the Dream Team as the only Dream Team.  Trying to compare greatness across eras doesn't make sense, in my opinion.

This

[Lighthouse 84]

I saw this the other day and still think it more accurately reflects the comparison, though it's all still opinion, no matter whose information you use or believe:

Jordan vs LeBron

Updated after Lebrons 14th season. Michael Jordan has:
•3 more rings
•3 more final mvps
•1 more DPOY
•1 more season MVP
•9 more scoring titles
•3 more steals leader
•3 more all defensive team selections
•4000 more points / bron moved past him in playoff points, but it took him longer.
•800 more steals
•Beat 20 50+ win teams in the playoffs (Lebron only defeated 10)
•Jordan never averaged less than 40% Field Goal in the finals
Lebron did it twice
•6/6 (never allowed a game 7)
•Lebron had much more offensive help, example:
Jordan never had a teammate average more than 22 points in the finals.. In fact, Mj is Only player in NBA history to lead a team to the championship with only one teammate averaging double figures in scoring
* In the Bulls’ 1997 playoff run, Scottie Pippen averaged 19 points per game on 42% shooting. All other teammates of Jordan averaged under 8 points per game
Kyrie averaged over 28 and DWade averaged more than 26
•MJ never ever had a finals meltdown like Lebron in 2011 against the Mavs
•MJ had more points in the playoffs in less games..
MJ accomplished all of this in 13 seasons
Lebron after his 14th season, is still chasing the “ghost (GOAT) that played in Chicago”
•Michael Jordan in the playoffs has put up atleast 40ppg, 5rpg, 5apg in 6 different playoff series. Along with an average of about 55% shooting, 3spg and 2bpg.
(86 vs bos, 89 vs cavs, 90 vs philly, 92 vs Miami, 93 vs Phoenix, 88 vs cavs) Jordan won every one of those matchups except for the 1986 matchup vs the celtics.
•Jordan in 88-89 averaged 32ppg, 8apg, 8rpg, 3spg off 54% shooting. LeBron has never even came close to this stat line.
•in 87 thru 92, MJ averaged 5 straight seasons of atleast 51% FG shooting. LeBron has never done this.
•the lowest FT% MJ ever shot in a season was 78%. Lebrons highest in a season ever is 78%.
•MJ has a higher playoff FG% of 48.7% to Lebrons 48.3%
•MJ has a higher playoff player efficiency rating of 28.6 to Lebrons 27.3.
•MJ shoots a higher playoff 3 point percentage of 33.2% to Lebrons 32.9%
•LeBron James has scored 30 points, 416 times in 1,117 games.
Michael Jordan did it 562 times in 1,072 games.
Jordan won 6 championships without losing a final in 1,072 games and LeBron in 1,117 games has lost 5 times and has only won 3 times (updated 2018)
•MJ also shocked the league by being the first (and only) player to have 100 blocks and 200 steals in the same season, then turned around and did it again the next year..
•Mj also has more career blocks (893) than Lebron James (853) despite playing in 22 LESS career games and being the smaller guy.
Also, MJ averaged 1.6 blocks per game in the 1987-88 season which is absolutely bonkers for a 6’6″ shooting guard.
Seriously this list can keep going. This isn’t even a debate. Mj is the GOAT.
MIchael Jordan:
•NBA record 5 playoffs series’ averaging atleast 40ppg
•Only player in history to lead league in scoring and win DPOY
•Highest scoring average, points per game, in any championship series:
41.0 vs. Phoenix Suns, 1993 NBA Finals
•Only rookie in NBA history to lead his team in four statistics (1984–85)
•Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring, win Most Valuable Player, and Defensive Player of the Year in the same season (1987–88)
•Only player in history to average at least 30pts 6reb 5assists And 2 steals per game AND HE DID IT 7 TIMES.
•Only player in NBA history to win Rookie of the Year (1984–85), Defensive Player of the Year (1987–88), NBA MVP (1987–88, 1990–91, 1991–92, 1995–96, 1997–98), All-Star MVP (1988, 1996, 1998), and Finals MVP (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998)
•Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring and win the NBA championship MORE THAN ONCE in the same season
* He did this SIX TIMES!! (1990–91, 1991–92, 1992–93, 1995–96, 1996–97, 1997–98)
•One of two players in NBA history to score 3,000 points in a season: 3,041 points scored in 82 games played (37.1 ppg) (1986–87)
* Wilt Chamberlain is the only other player to achieve this.
•MJ is also the only player in NBA history to score over 40 points at age 40, and he did it twice!
•In 1988, MJ earned: Dunk Champ, All Star Game MVP, NBA Scoring Title, League MVP and Defensive Player of the Year.
Michael in only ELEVEN complete seasons with the Bulls:
-10 scoring titles,
-Won Defensive Player of the Year,
-9 times all defensive team,
-9time All NBA,
-5 league MVPs
-6 finals MVPs
All 11 seasons. Mj has done in 11 seasons things Lebron hasn’t done and won’t do in his whole career…

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

I look at trying to name the GOAT as a fun debate.  I don't take it too seriously but I can see the viewpoints of those who think it doesn't matter or comparing across eras being difficult.  The game changes with time, plus it is hard to have an opinion of players you never see.

That said, I'll vote Kareem as the GOAT (even though I only saw the later part of his career).

6 titles
10 Finals
6 MVPs
2 Finals MVPs
#1 all time scoring
#1 all time win shares (career)
#1 win shares (single season)
3 of top 7 single season win shares (Jordan's best was 9th)

[MerrittsMustache]

•Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring, win Most Valuable Player, and Defensive Player of the Year in the same season (1987–88)

This is pretty incredible stat. It also wouldn't surprise me to see Anthony Davis join him in this category before all is said and done.

[Silkk the Shaka]

I look at trying to name the GOAT as a fun debate.  I don't take it too seriously but I can see the viewpoints of those who think it doesn't matter or comparing across eras being difficult.  The game changes with time, plus it is hard to have an opinion of players you never see.

That said, I'll vote Kareem as the GOAT (even though I only saw the later part of his career).

6 titles
10 Finals
6 MVPs
2 Finals MVPs
#1 all time scoring
#1 all time win shares (career)
#1 win shares (single season)
3 of top 7 single season win shares (Jordan's best was 9th)

And 3/3 NCAA titles, 3 NCAA tourney MOP's, with only 2 collegiate regular season losses (one while he played)

[Jockey]

I look at trying to name the GOAT as a fun debate.  I don't take it too seriously but I can see the viewpoints of those who think it doesn't matter or comparing across eras being difficult.  The game changes with time, plus it is hard to have an opinion of players you never see.

That said, I'll vote Kareem as the GOAT (even though I only saw the later part of his career).

6 titles
10 Finals
6 MVPs
2 Finals MVPs
#1 all time scoring
#1 all time win shares (career)
#1 win shares (single season)
3 of top 7 single season win shares (Jordan's best was 9th)

A case can easily be made for Kareem. We think of Olajuwon as a great player, but his best Win Shares season was only 60% of Kareem's best year.

A young Kareem was stunning - in college there was no way to stop him, so they changed the rules to do so. Much as they did with Wilt in the NBA.

[MUBigDance]

..... Magic won an NCAA championship in his only college season...

Two seasons...not a big deal...point taken. He's a contender. I've from Michigan and followed MSU pretty close those years.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Two seasons...not a big deal...point taken. He's a contender. I've from Michigan and followed MSU pretty close those years.

I stand corrected!

[GGGG]

I saw this the other day and still think it more accurately reflects the comparison, though it's all still opinion, no matter whose information you use or believe:

Jordan vs LeBron

Updated after Lebrons 14th season. Michael Jordan has:
•3 more rings
•3 more final mvps
•1 more DPOY
•1 more season MVP
•9 more scoring titles
•3 more steals leader
•3 more all defensive team selections
•4000 more points / bron moved past him in playoff points, but it took him longer.
•800 more steals
•Beat 20 50+ win teams in the playoffs (Lebron only defeated 10)
•Jordan never averaged less than 40% Field Goal in the finals
Lebron did it twice
•6/6 (never allowed a game 7)
•Lebron had much more offensive help, example:
Jordan never had a teammate average more than 22 points in the finals.. In fact, Mj is Only player in NBA history to lead a team to the championship with only one teammate averaging double figures in scoring
* In the Bulls’ 1997 playoff run, Scottie Pippen averaged 19 points per game on 42% shooting. All other teammates of Jordan averaged under 8 points per game
Kyrie averaged over 28 and DWade averaged more than 26
•MJ never ever had a finals meltdown like Lebron in 2011 against the Mavs
•MJ had more points in the playoffs in less games..
MJ accomplished all of this in 13 seasons
Lebron after his 14th season, is still chasing the “ghost (GOAT) that played in Chicago”
•Michael Jordan in the playoffs has put up atleast 40ppg, 5rpg, 5apg in 6 different playoff series. Along with an average of about 55% shooting, 3spg and 2bpg.
(86 vs bos, 89 vs cavs, 90 vs philly, 92 vs Miami, 93 vs Phoenix, 88 vs cavs) Jordan won every one of those matchups except for the 1986 matchup vs the celtics.
•Jordan in 88-89 averaged 32ppg, 8apg, 8rpg, 3spg off 54% shooting. LeBron has never even came close to this stat line.
•in 87 thru 92, MJ averaged 5 straight seasons of atleast 51% FG shooting. LeBron has never done this.
•the lowest FT% MJ ever shot in a season was 78%. Lebrons highest in a season ever is 78%.
•MJ has a higher playoff FG% of 48.7% to Lebrons 48.3%
•MJ has a higher playoff player efficiency rating of 28.6 to Lebrons 27.3.
•MJ shoots a higher playoff 3 point percentage of 33.2% to Lebrons 32.9%
•LeBron James has scored 30 points, 416 times in 1,117 games.
Michael Jordan did it 562 times in 1,072 games.
Jordan won 6 championships without losing a final in 1,072 games and LeBron in 1,117 games has lost 5 times and has only won 3 times (updated 2018)
•MJ also shocked the league by being the first (and only) player to have 100 blocks and 200 steals in the same season, then turned around and did it again the next year..
•Mj also has more career blocks (893) than Lebron James (853) despite playing in 22 LESS career games and being the smaller guy.
Also, MJ averaged 1.6 blocks per game in the 1987-88 season which is absolutely bonkers for a 6’6″ shooting guard.
Seriously this list can keep going. This isn’t even a debate. Mj is the GOAT.
MIchael Jordan:
•NBA record 5 playoffs series’ averaging atleast 40ppg
•Only player in history to lead league in scoring and win DPOY
•Highest scoring average, points per game, in any championship series:
41.0 vs. Phoenix Suns, 1993 NBA Finals
•Only rookie in NBA history to lead his team in four statistics (1984–85)
•Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring, win Most Valuable Player, and Defensive Player of the Year in the same season (1987–88)
•Only player in history to average at least 30pts 6reb 5assists And 2 steals per game AND HE DID IT 7 TIMES.
•Only player in NBA history to win Rookie of the Year (1984–85), Defensive Player of the Year (1987–88), NBA MVP (1987–88, 1990–91, 1991–92, 1995–96, 1997–98), All-Star MVP (1988, 1996, 1998), and Finals MVP (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998)
•Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring and win the NBA championship MORE THAN ONCE in the same season
* He did this SIX TIMES!! (1990–91, 1991–92, 1992–93, 1995–96, 1996–97, 1997–98)
•One of two players in NBA history to score 3,000 points in a season: 3,041 points scored in 82 games played (37.1 ppg) (1986–87)
* Wilt Chamberlain is the only other player to achieve this.
•MJ is also the only player in NBA history to score over 40 points at age 40, and he did it twice!
•In 1988, MJ earned: Dunk Champ, All Star Game MVP, NBA Scoring Title, League MVP and Defensive Player of the Year.
Michael in only ELEVEN complete seasons with the Bulls:
-10 scoring titles,
-Won Defensive Player of the Year,
-9 times all defensive team,
-9time All NBA,
-5 league MVPs
-6 finals MVPs
All 11 seasons. Mj has done in 11 seasons things Lebron hasn’t done and won’t do in his whole career…

Some of these are silly and some are team stats, but some really are pretty relevant, and why I think MJ still has a slight edge.

[WarriorDad]

Very good analysis, though it's incomplete.

You ignore the fact that LeBron is taking average teams to the Finals in an incredibly mediocre conference. The current Cavs team might not even be better than the Price/Dougherty/Ehlo/Nance Cavs teams of the early 90s who never made it to the Finals. Do you think LeBron is winning the East 8 straight seasons if he's going against the Riley-led Knicks or Heat year after year? Orlando and Indiana also had some teams that were better than anyone currently in the East. In Jordan's era, half of the league wasn't tanking either.

Don't get me wrong, LeBron going to 8 straight Finals is all kinds of impressive and he is firmly entrenched in the #2 spot all-time. He's simply not better nor more valuable than Michael Jordan.

Conversely Michael's teams took on a lot of paper weights in the finals, and I say that as a Bulls fan of more than 40 years.  Lebron's team also beat a 73 win team for the championship, which had never been done before.

[WarriorDad]

A case can easily be made for Kareem. We think of Olajuwon as a great player, but his best Win Shares season was only 60% of Kareem's best year.

A young Kareem was stunning - in college there was no way to stop him, so they changed the rules to do so. Much as they did with Wilt in the NBA.

Kareem was a stud.  He also played in college when the dunk was outlawed.  Grace

[BallBoy]

I love the argument that LeBron played with nobody and got them to the finals. He had probably the greatest team on paper of all time and he went two and two.

He then left to go back to Cleveland with Kyrie and Love. The talk is he is going to leave Cleveland and get on another team of young superstars.

In the era of the super team, half the NBA is flat out horrible. The east this year is horrible. The Raptors were the best team which says it all.

Lebron is today’s modern day Wilt. Great numbers and lots of runs to championships but he doesn’t win. Jordan played against the best and won. Ewing, Miller, Magic, Bird, freckled, Kemp, Thomas, et al. 6-0 when it mattered.

[SaveOD238]

I love the argument that LeBron played with nobody and got them to the finals. He had probably the greatest team on paper of all time and he went two and two.

He played on the 2016 Warriors? 

Oh no, never mind, he BEAT the 2016 Warriors.

For what it's worth, in his 9 NBA Finals, LeBron has been the underdog in most of them:

2007: underdogs to Spurs (LOST)
2011: favored over the Mavs (LOST)
2012: slight underdogs to the Thunder (WON)
2013: slightly favored over Spurs (WON)
2014: slight underdogs to Spurs (LOST)
2015: underdogs to Warriors (LOST)
2016: heavy underdogs to Warriors (WON)
2017: underdogs to Warriors (LOST)
2018: heavy underdogs to Warriors (????)

In my opinion, the only Finals LeBron SHOULD have won but didn't was 2011 to the Mavs.  The rest of the time, when LeBron lost (twice to the Spurs and twice, maybe thrice, to the Warriors) he was on the weaker team, sometimes by a significant margin.

[WarriorDad]

I love the argument that LeBron played with nobody and got them to the finals. He had probably the greatest team on paper of all time and he went two and two.

He then left to go back to Cleveland with Kyrie and Love. The talk is he is going to leave Cleveland and get on another team of young superstars.

In the era of the super team, half the NBA is flat out horrible. The east this year is horrible. The Raptors were the best team which says it all.

Lebron is today’s modern day Wilt. Great numbers and lots of runs to championships but he doesn’t win. Jordan played against the best and won. Ewing, Miller, Magic, Bird, freckled, Kemp, Thomas, et al. 6-0 when it mattered.

Michael also lost a lot of games and series to not make the Finals.  Mostly against the Pistons.  Lebron doesn't win?  How many teams has he taken to the Finals that had no business being there?  Last night was a great example of how any teammate with half a brain puts them over the top.

Michael's 6-0 is amazing, but some of those against fairly average teams like the Lakers, Jazz and Suns teams.  That Lakers team Worthy and Scott didn't play for several games and Marquette's Tony Smith had to play. Magic never played in another Finals because that team was done.

Lebron on those Bulls teams also goes 6-0.  Michael on all of these Cavs teams, doesn't make it to the Finals as much in my opinion, and I say that as a Bulls fan.

[Lennys Tap]

I say that as a Bulls fan.

LOL

[auburnmarquette]

Hey Auburn, where are you seeing that Alexander left Tennessee and Alexander-Walker left Virginia Tech? As far as I can tell, both are set to return next season.

Oh, thank you! I was going off a list that seemed to show everyone who was returning to college in a column, but it could be some were not updated so thanks for the catch. For some reason noone has put out a list since the deadline of midnight.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Oh, thank you! I was going off a list that seemed to show everyone who was returning to college in a column, but it could be some were not updated so thanks for the catch. For some reason noone has put out a list since the deadline of midnight.

I don't believe Alexander-Walker ever declared and therefore he wouldn't show up on a list of withdrawing players.

[auburnmarquette]

A case can easily be made for Kareem. We think of Olajuwon as a great player, but his best Win Shares season was only 60% of Kareem's best year.

A young Kareem was stunning - in college there was no way to stop him, so they changed the rules to do so. Much as they did with Wilt in the NBA.

Agree Kareem is the other legit contender of the three, and certainly Lighthouse and Lazar's Canadian lay out great arguments for Jordan as GOAT as well. My little bias against Kareem if we said he was "tied" with Jordan and LeBron is my tie-breaker would be he could only play one position. He did need someone to get it to him in the post - granted he was an easy target - but for me LeBron being able to play any of the five positions well to fill any hole gives him the edge, and granted Jordan could be good any place except center.

But definitely legit argument for Kareem.

Wilt and Russell just outside it - but in some ways like a LeBron-Jordan comparison with Russell having the championships but in that case Wilt having the clear statistical edge side-by-side.

I believe Adam Silver is laughing all the way to the bank as we all tune in to love or hate LeBron :-)

[auburnmarquette]

I love the argument that LeBron played with nobody and got them to the finals. He had probably the greatest team on paper of all time and he went two and two.

He then left to go back to Cleveland with Kyrie and Love. The talk is he is going to leave Cleveland and get on another team of young superstars.

In the era of the super team, half the NBA is flat out horrible. The east this year is horrible. The Raptors were the best team which says it all.

Lebron is today’s modern day Wilt. Great numbers and lots of runs to championships but he doesn’t win. Jordan played against the best and won. Ewing, Miller, Magic, Bird, freckled, Kemp, Thomas, et al. 6-0 when it mattered.

Fair point, but my argument is that he took a few terrible teams to the finals. Before getting to Miami he was dragging terrible teams. Then he had the year when Kyrie and Love both went down so the team he dragged there was terrible. Then this years team is pathetic and Love's defense is so bad he seems barely above average.

So my point is he took a few terrible teams to the Finals. Jordan had 5 teams without another Hall of Famer on them and averaged going 30-52.

I do admit though that Jordan's top three seasons were probably a little better than any of James' seasons, so I could see a "Jordan greatest peak performance, but LeBron greatest sustained over a long career," though one of the other good arguments for Jordan above was adding what he did at UNC as a balance to LeBron getting an earlier start in the NBA.

[auburnmarquette]

I don't believe Alexander-Walker ever declared and therefore he wouldn't show up on a list of withdrawing players.

Got it - strange, he was on a grid that I was using that seems 99% accurate but I just pulled up this preview and new Top 25 and they definitely list him as a key returning player so it looks like you are right.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/2018-19-college-basketball-rankings-changes-in-top-25-and-1-after-ncaa-draft-withdrawal-deadline/

[Dr. Blackheart]

What's interesting in the video I shared is those were all Eastern Conference teams.  Lots of all time greats back then that Jordan played against in a very physical conference.

Switch over to the more finesse driven Western Conference with Magic, Kareem, Malone, Drexler, Barkley and Jordan could switch it up and dominate there too. 

I don't see that same dichotomy of play or quality of competition for LeBron, but he is carrying and absolute crappy team on his back too.

Btw, KD is looking ver old.

[Galway Eagle]

What's interesting in the video I shared is those were all Eastern Conference teams.  Lots of all time greats back then that Jordan played against in a very physical conference.

Switch over to the more finesse driven Western Conference with Magic, Kareem, Malone, Drexler, Barkley and Jordan could switch it up and dominate there too. 

I don't see that same dichotomy of play or quality of competition for LeBron, but he is carrying and absolute crappy team on his back too.

Btw, KD is looking ver old.

Barkley was in the east for half his career and majority of time he and Jordan overlapped for the record

[MerrittsMustache]

So my point is he took a few terrible teams to the Finals. Jordan had 5 teams without another Hall of Famer on them and averaged going 30-52.

Where did this number come from? It's wrong.

The Bulls went 38-44 in Jordan's rookie season then went 30-52 in the year he broke his foot and only played 18 games (they went 9-9 with him and 21-43 without him). The Bulls then went 40-42 the year prior to Pippen's arrival. I assume that you're also counting the Wizard years when the team went 37-45 both seasons with a late-30s Jordan. That doesn't compute to a 30-win average. Also, Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving are better than anyone on those Bulls or Wizards teams.

Let me ask you this...How many star players/future HOFers did LeBron defeat in the playoffs while dragging teams to the Finals? A declining Vince Carter and a mid-30s Jason Kidd were in NJ. Who else? Al Horford? Pau Gasol? DeMar DeRozan? Paul George? Not exactly a who's who of NBA legends, huh?

[Its DJOver]

Let me ask you this...How many star players/future HOFers did LeBron defeat in the playoffs while dragging teams to the Finals? A declining Vince Carter and a mid-30s Jason Kidd were in NJ. Who else? Al Horford? Pau Gasol? DeMar DeRozan? Paul George? Not exactly a who's who of NBA legends, huh?

This kind of invalidates some of the arguments that you made in the NBA thread.  What HOFers did Lebron have with him?  A mid 30s Allen, a post prime injury prone Wade?  I think Kyrie will get there, but based of his current body of work, he's not there yet. 

There's always gonna be arguments for both to be the GOAT.  Arguing it on a message board won't change anyone's mind one way or the other.  The only thing that can change people's minds is what Lebron does in his 3-5 more years being the dominant player that he currently is.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

What if instead of GOAT we talked about best of a decade? Basketball has changed so much over the years that its hard to compare individuals.

50s: Pettit? Not sure there's anyone 50s or sooner that is in the GOAT conversation
60s: Russell? Chamberlain?
70s: Abdul-Jabbar
80s: Magic? Bird? Jordan?
90s: Jordan
00s: James? Kobe? Shaq? Duncan?
10s: James

[MerrittsMustache]

This kind of invalidates some of the arguments that you made in the NBA thread.  What HOFers did Lebron have with him?  A mid 30s Allen, a post prime injury prone Wade?  I think Kyrie will get there, but based of his current body of work, he's not there yet. 

There's always gonna be arguments for both to be the GOAT.  Arguing it on a message board won't change anyone's mind one way or the other.  The only thing that can change people's minds is what Lebron does in his 3-5 more years being the dominant player that he currently is.

You may Wade "post prime" but he still ranked 3rd, 3rd and 7th in PER during LBJ's first 3 seasons in Miami. You're selling him a bit short.

Allen was the perfect role player for that team and hit the biggest shot in Heat history.

You're also leaving out 11-time All-Star Chris Bosh.

[Its DJOver]

You may Wade "post prime" but he still ranked 3rd, 3rd and 7th in PER during LBJ's first 3 seasons in Miami. You're selling him a bit short.

Allen was the perfect role player for that team and hit the biggest shot in Heat history.

You're also leaving out 11-time All-Star Chris Bosh.

PER is adjusted for minutes played so it doesn't factor that Wade missed over a third of the season in '11-'12.
You kinda prove my point by calling Allen a role player. Not exactly a take over a game type HOFer at that point in his career.
Bosh's ppg in Miami over the 4 years that Lebron was there average out to 17.3.  That's on par with what JJ Reddick put up this year and would not be top 30 in the league.  He's got a chance based on what he did in Toronto, but once again, not exactly in his prime and fully healthy.

Once again, there will always be arguments for both Lebron and Jordan to be the GOAT, but nothing that I or anyone else has said here has done a thing to change your mind so my advise is to wait until Lebron's career is over, then make a decision on who you thought was better and that's it, you have reached your conclusion.

[BallBoy]

Fair point, but my argument is that he took a few terrible teams to the finals. Before getting to Miami he was dragging terrible teams. Then he had the year when Kyrie and Love both went down so the team he dragged there was terrible. Then this years team is pathetic and Love's defense is so bad he seems barely above average.

So my point is he took a few terrible teams to the Finals. Jordan had 5 teams without another Hall of Famer on them and averaged going 30-52.

I do admit though that Jordan's top three seasons were probably a little better than any of James' seasons, so I could see a "Jordan greatest peak performance, but LeBron greatest sustained over a long career," though one of the other good arguments for Jordan above was adding what he did at UNC as a balance to LeBron getting an earlier start in the NBA.

1.  My counter would be his Terrible teams were still better than the rest of the East.  So getting to the finals was a cake walk relative to the path that Jordan had to take.  Then looking at the rest of the east the few good players consolidated onto single teams.  Celtics and Miami.  As Miami was taking off the Celtics broke up and Allen ended up on Miami.  Who did James win against that was amazing?
2.  Prior to Miami, he only took one Cleveland team to the NBA Finals so he didn't drag many subpar teams to the finals.  Post Miami, he was in the Kyrie/Love teams in Cleveland and he only won one (maybe two).  You could say this year's team is a subpar team but I would ask who in the east did he beat that was good.  An upstart Celtics team sans Kyrie?
3.  When he got to the finals he lost.  He doesn't have a winning record in the finals. 

Lebron is one of the GOAT but not the GOAT.  He is the modern day Wilt.  Dominates his position.  Gets to Finals and then loses.

[Galway Eagle]

1.  My counter would be his Terrible teams were still better than the rest of the East.  So getting to the finals was a cake walk relative to the path that Jordan had to take.  Then looking at the rest of the east the few good players consolidated onto single teams.  Celtics and Miami.  As Miami was taking off the Celtics broke up and Allen ended up on Miami.  Who did James win against that was amazing?
2.  Prior to Miami, he only took one Cleveland team to the NBA Finals so he didn't drag many subpar teams to the finals.  Post Miami, he was in the Kyrie/Love teams in Cleveland and he only won one (maybe two).  You could say this year's team is a subpar team but I would ask who in the east did he beat that was good.  An upstart Celtics team sans Kyrie?
3.  When he got to the finals he lost.  He doesn't have a winning record in the finals. 

Lebron is one of the GOAT but not the GOAT.  He is the modern day Wilt.  Dominates his position.  Gets to Finals and then loses.

The bulls had a couple good runs in there.

[MerrittsMustache]

PER is adjusted for minutes played so it doesn't factor that Wade missed over a third of the season in '11-'12.
You kinda prove my point by calling Allen a role player. Not exactly a take over a game type HOFer at that point in his career.
Bosh's ppg in Miami over the 4 years that Lebron was there average out to 17.3.  That's on par with what JJ Reddick put up this year and would not be top 30 in the league.  He's got a chance based on what he did in Toronto, but once again, not exactly in his prime and fully healthy.

Once again, there will always be arguments for both Lebron and Jordan to be the GOAT, but nothing that I or anyone else has said here has done a thing to change your mind so my advise is to wait until Lebron's career is over, then make a decision on who you thought was better and that's it, you have reached your conclusion.

Wade played in 49 of 66 games (74%) in 2011-12.

You brought up Ray Allen. He was, as I said, the perfect role player for that team. You're right that he wasn't a superstar at that point but take away Allen and do the Heat win the title that season? Nope. He spread the floor and hit clutch shots.

Bosh's scoring went down because he was on a team with LeBron and Wade. He also averaged 7.5 rebounds, was the best defensive player on those teams and averaged 8.6 win shares per season (higher than anyone aside from MJ on the 97-98 Bulls and equal to Pippen in 92-93). Chris Bosh will be in the Hall of Fame.

[BallBoy]

The bulls had a couple good runs in there.

They did.  With basically two different teams.  In his first run, he had Pippen, Grant, and Cartwright with the greats of Paxson and BJ Armstrong. 

In the second run, he had Pippen, Rodman, Harper, Longley, Kukoc.  This being the teams most remember. 

During those runs he beat teams like
NY - Ewing, Jackson, Greg Anthony, Doc River, Mason, Oakley
Pacers - Miller, Mullen, Rose, Jackson
Lakers - Magic, Worthy, Valdy
Piston - Thomas, Laimbeer, Dumars, Rodman
Magic - Shaq, Penny, Nick Anderson
Suns - Barkley, Kevin Johnson, Ainge
Jazz, - Malone, Stockton
Portland - Clyde Drexler, Ainge, Duckworth

That is the whose who of NBA Superstars. 

[Its DJOver]

Wade played in 49 of 66 games (74%) in 2011-12.

You brought up Ray Allen. He was, as I said, the perfect role player for that team. You're right that he wasn't a superstar at that point but take away Allen and do the Heat win the title that season? Nope. He spread the floor and hit clutch shots.

Bosh's scoring went down because he was on a team with LeBron and Wade. He also averaged 7.5 rebounds, was the best defensive player on those teams and averaged 8.6 win shares per season (higher than anyone aside from MJ on the 97-98 Bulls and equal to Pippen in 92-93). Chris Bosh will be in the Hall of Fame.

See below.

Once again, there will always be arguments for both Lebron and Jordan to be the GOAT, but nothing that I or anyone else has said here has done a thing to change your mind so my advise is to wait until Lebron's career is over, then make a decision on who you thought was better and that's it, you have reached your conclusion.

You give off the impression of sour grapes when Auburn (who is the best advanced stats guy IMO) does a write up on why Lebron is the GOAT including all the advanced stats that he is known for and your response is to immediately throw shade at the entire Eastern Conference for a decade.  I get it, you're a Chicago guy.  You'll defend the bulls and MJ until the day you die and nothing will change your mind.

[Silkk the Shaka]

This kind of invalidates some of the arguments that you made in the NBA thread.  What HOFers did Lebron have with him?  A mid 30s Allen, a post prime injury prone Wade? I think Kyrie will get there, but based of his current body of work, he's not there yet. 

There's always gonna be arguments for both to be the GOAT.  Arguing it on a message board won't change anyone's mind one way or the other.  The only thing that can change people's minds is what Lebron does in his 3-5 more years being the dominant player that he currently is.

This is one of the things that annoys me the most about LeBron Stans. To build up his myth they denigrate and downplay Wade. Wade was by far the best player on the court in the 2011 finals. Should have been the MVP. Not enough "help" for LeBron?

Wade's PER rank by year with LeBron

2011: #3
2012: #3
2013: #7
2014: #14

He was definitely injured in the 2014 finals, but he's the #3 SG & a top 25 player all time.

Also, Bosh is definitely a hall of famer. Did you just forget that?

[Galway Eagle]

They did.  With basically two different teams.  In his first run, he had Pippen, Grant, and Cartwright with the greats of Paxson and BJ Armstrong. 

In the second run, he had Pippen, Rodman, Harper, Longley, Kukoc.  This being the teams most remember. 

During those runs he beat teams like
NY - Ewing, Jackson, Greg Anthony, Doc River, Mason, Oakley
Pacers - Miller, Mullen, Rose, Jackson
Lakers - Magic, Worthy, Valdy
Piston - Thomas, Laimbeer, Dumars, Rodman
Magic - Shaq, Penny, Nick Anderson
Suns - Barkley, Kevin Johnson, Ainge
Jazz, - Malone, Stockton
Portland - Clyde Drexler, Ainge, Duckworth

That is the whose who of NBA Superstars.

Was referring to good teams lebron had to beat. He did beat MVP Rose in the playoffs

[auburnmarquette]

I look at trying to name the GOAT as a fun debate.  I don't take it too seriously but I can see the viewpoints of those who think it doesn't matter or comparing across eras being difficult.  The game changes with time, plus it is hard to have an opinion of players you never see.

That said, I'll vote Kareem as the GOAT (even though I only saw the later part of his career).

6 titles
10 Finals
6 MVPs
2 Finals MVPs
#1 all time scoring
#1 all time win shares (career)
#1 win shares (single season)
3 of top 7 single season win shares (Jordan's best was 9th)

Have to admit, that last point makes a pretty strong case for Kareem. Still sticking with LeBron, but I do believe Win Shares are the best measurement to compare eras, which is why I went "Win Credits" in the Marquette book. However, it later occurred to me that in Marquette's cases it wasn't as accurate because the wins were so much harder to get once we were in the Big East and the schedule was so much tougher. But for the NBA, that is a great closing argument.

[MerrittsMustache]

See below.

You give off the impression of sour grapes when Auburn (who is the best advanced stats guy IMO) does a write up on why Lebron is the GOAT including all the advanced stats that he is known for and your response is to immediately throw shade at the entire Eastern Conference for a decade.  I get it, you're a Chicago guy.  You'll defend the bulls and MJ until the day you die and nothing will change your mind.

Analytics are great but who you're playing against also matters. If you and Auburn want to discount that, it's your prerogative. It's just that in doing so, the analytics provided are incomplete.

Ironically, this all goes back to my post a few days ago stating the LeBron gets more love for carrying average teams to the Finals (thru a mediocre conference) than he would get if he was winning rings on a so-called "superteam."

[Jockey]

The end of the game showed the biggest difference in MJ and Lebron.

Jordan absolutely takes the shot. Lebron, even though he has been hot the entire game, makes the best basketball play - a pass for a layup to Hill who had a bunny if Klay doesn't grab him going by.

[Floorslapper]

Anyone think if LeBron pulled a Kevin Durant and went out to Golden State, he'd have 3 more rings?

This team LeBron is playing with this year was re-tooled mid-season, and it's best other player is Kevin Love - not exactly Scottie Pippen caliber.  Dennis Rodman goes down as one of the absolute toughest and best rebounders in the history of the game.  Kukoc is basically Kevin Love. 

Loved Jordan, never thought I'd see the day where I felt another player was as good/better.  Hell Steve Kerr said in his presser last night:  "LeBron is doing things that have never been done in this game."

[Its DJOver]

Analytics are great but who you're playing against also matters. If you and Auburn want to discount that, it's your prerogative. It's just that in doing so, the analytics provided are incomplete.

I guess you thought that 2011-12 Thunder team with Durant, Westbrook, and Harden was just terrible, especially since Bosh (who was just a huge influence according to you) was hurt.  That 2015-16 Warriors team that won a record 73 games, they were bad too.  Lets face it, no team since 1999 is any good since they don't have to play against teams from the 90s. 

You can continue to tell yourself that basketball was better back then, but the fact is that players now are stronger, faster, better shooters, have more analytics helping them, and a larger foreign talent pool than ever before. 

[MUDPT]

The end of the game showed the biggest difference in MJ and Lebron.

Jordan absolutely takes the shot. Lebron, even though he has been hot the entire game, makes the best basketball play - a pass for a layup to Hill who had a bunny if Klay doesn't grab him going by.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2BlOTeoZVE

Speaking of what if's.  What if Hugh Hollins doesn't make the call against Scottie on Hubert Davis?  Bulls go to the Finals against there Rockets? What happens to Jordan's legacy then?

[Galway Eagle]

I guess you thought that 2011-12 Thunder team with Durant, Westbrook, and Harden was just terrible, especially since Bosh (who was just a huge influence according to you) was hurt.  That 2015-16 Warriors team that won a record 73 games, they were bad too.  Lets face it, no team since 1999 is any good since they don't have to play against teams from the 90s. 

You can continue to tell yourself that basketball was better back then, but the fact is that players now are stronger, faster, better shooters, have more analytics helping them, and a larger foreign talent pool than ever before.

That thunder team was really young I was surprised they were favored in that series.

I think they're referring to who lebron has played in the eastern playoffs... which hasn't been much in terms of all time great talent. Lowry and derozan are not all time greats. I suppose one could say Paul George but he'd be pretty darn low on that list. Those ancient Celtics maybe? That's about all that's coming to mind.

[Its DJOver]

That thunder team was really young I was surprised they were favored in that series.

I think they're referring to who lebron has played in the eastern playoffs... which hasn't been much in terms of all time great talent. Lowry and derozan are not all time greats. I suppose one could say Paul George but he'd be pretty darn low on that list. Those ancient Celtics maybe? That's about all that's coming to mind.

So beating a team with 3 future mvps on it doesn't count because it was in the finals and not earlier in the playoffs? That's absurd.  The Bucks made t-shirts when they beat that warriors team once and LeBron doesn't get credit because it was in the finals rather than earlier in the playoffs? You can only play against the team that's in front of you, don't penalize a player because he didn't play the team with the greatest regular season of all time until the finals.

[MerrittsMustache]

So beating a team with 3 future mvps on it doesn't count because it was in the finals and not earlier in the playoffs? That's absurd.  The Bucks made t-shirts when they beat that warriors team once and LeBron doesn't get credit because it was in the finals rather than earlier in the playoffs? You can only play against the team that's in front of you, don't penalize a player because he didn't play the team with the greatest regular season of all time until the finals.

We’ve been discussing LeBron vs the weak East this whole time. Welcome to the party.

[Its DJOver]

We’ve been discussing LeBron vs the weak East this whole time. Welcome to the party.

The OP is LeBron vs MJ, don't know where you've been, but there are two conferences and at the end of the season the best team from one conference plays the best team from the other, and whoever wins that is the NBA champs. You must be new to this

[jesmu84]

The OP is LeBron vs MJ, don't know where you've been, but there are two conferences and at the end of the season the best team from one conference plays the best team from the other, and whoever wins that is the NBA champs. You must be new to this

That's not how leagues with playoffs work.

[GGGG]

That's not how leagues with playoffs work.

How’s that?

[jesmu84]

How’s that?

Any league that has playoffs doesn't necessarily have the "best" teams playing for the championship. Seven game series is a lot better than a single elimination ( NBA vs NCAA, for example). But there's still no guarantee.

[WarriorDad]

They did.  With basically two different teams.  In his first run, he had Pippen, Grant, and Cartwright with the greats of Paxson and BJ Armstrong. 

In the second run, he had Pippen, Rodman, Harper, Longley, Kukoc.  This being the teams most remember. 

During those runs he beat teams like
NY - Ewing, Jackson, Greg Anthony, Doc River, Mason, Oakley
Pacers - Miller, Mullen, Rose, Jackson
Lakers - Magic, Worthy, Valdy
Piston - Thomas, Laimbeer, Dumars, Rodman
Magic - Shaq, Penny, Nick Anderson
Suns - Barkley, Kevin Johnson, Ainge
Jazz, - Malone, Stockton
Portland - Clyde Drexler, Ainge, Duckworth

That is the whose who of NBA Superstars.

All excellent points, but have a few disagreements here.  He also lost to teams like those Pistons and Knicks, too.

Worthy didn't play in several of those games (he was hurt during one, missed another completely).  Magic that was his last final, Lakers downslide

How can you get Doc Rivers name wrong?   

A number of these guys were at the end of their careers.  Danny Ainge? Averaged less than 10 points the year they went to the finals and only got above 10 points one more time in his career. 

Chris Mullin was a shadow of himself by the time he played for the Pacers.  A good role player, but not the Chris Mullin of old.

KJo's worst year from 1988-1994 was the year they went to the finals. Big drop off in avg points, avg assists

MJ and his team beat some great teams and great players.  They also beat some players that used to be great, or teams that might have been great in other eras but not this time around (Lakers, for example).

[BallBoy]

All excellent points, but have a few disagreements here.  He also lost to teams like those Pistons and Knicks, too.
First MJ did not lose to the Knicks.  As a matter of fact he even beat Ewing in College for his NCAA Championship. Second, the Pistons were a Dominant team during that stretch and Jordan overcame them

Worthy didn't play in several of those games (he was hurt during one, missed another completely).  Magic that was his last final, Lakers downslide
You make this sound like Magic was in a downward slide.  He is only three years older than Jordan and left the league, not because of his skills but he got HIV.  The Lakers as a team were still good but they weren't as good after Kareem retired (year before)

How can you get Doc Rivers name wrong?    I was saving my S's for all of your alternative facts

A number of these guys were at the end of their careers.  Danny Ainge? Averaged less than 10 points the year they went to the finals and only got above 10 points one more time in his career.
Ainge was never a scorer.  He was an orchestrator. 

Chris Mullin was a shadow of himself by the time he played for the Pacers.  A good role player, but not the Chris Mullin of old.
He was still good on a very good team

KJo's worst year from 1988-1994 was the year they went to the finals. Big drop off in avg points, avg assists
Also the first year that he played with a determined Barkley

MJ and his team beat some great teams and great players.  They also beat some players that used to be great, or teams that might have been great in other eras but not this time around (Lakers, for example).
Ewing was in his prime
Miller was in his prime
Barkley was in his prime
Isiah Thomas was still a dominant player
Alonzo Morning was in his prime
Penny was in his prime
Shaq was into prime steaks but was in the best physical condition of his career

The big difference is that in Jordan's era the East was the dominant league.  In Lebron's era the dominant league has been the West.  The one thing Lebron has over Jordan is the number of NBA finals and number in a row.  In the era of Lebron, he has basically waltzed into the finals and then lost to the dominant league. 

[GGGG]

Any league that has playoffs doesn't necessarily have the "best" teams playing for the championship. Seven game series is a lot better than a single elimination ( NBA vs NCAA, for example). But there's still no guarantee.

OK.  That is a meaningless debate, because who cares if you are the "best" and lose in the playoffs? 

That being said, DJOver's point is that a geography based, unbalanced playoff system is going to create match ups between better teams prior to the championship rounds.

[auburnmarquette]

I guess you thought that 2011-12 Thunder team with Durant, Westbrook, and Harden was just terrible, especially since Bosh (who was just a huge influence according to you) was hurt.  That 2015-16 Warriors team that won a record 73 games, they were bad too.  Lets face it, no team since 1999 is any good since they don't have to play against teams from the 90s. 

You can continue to tell yourself that basketball was better back then, but the fact is that players now are stronger, faster, better shooters, have more analytics helping them, and a larger foreign talent pool than ever before.

Agree with both you and Floor slapper. He beat a 73-9 team. It's fair to point out the east has been weak, but LeBron's supporting staff has been weaker many times. Loved sharpe nailing the all time LeBron hater skip bailess after the game to point out the hypocracy of skip refusing to blame Brady for turning it over to lose a Superbowl because he passed for 500 years - to which Shannon pointed out the obvious analogy of how he could blame LeBron for not delivering game 1 when he went beyond 51 points to put on a performance Thursday that I don't believe Jordan ever matched (and I've admitted Jordan had the best 3 seasons, but he never did as much as LeBron did in a game thursday to drag a team that bad into ot.

Championships are a factor, but for me a player who takes an otherwise terrible team to the title series is more impressive than a guy who delivers titles for 6 superior teams - and if rings are the only factor then I repeat Robert horry is the greatest player since Kareem.

But as for the argument that if you lose in the playoffs then it doesn't matter - well then Wade was not a great player, meminger was not, Lucas was not - and 350 teams should be ashamed of their college basketball team every year.

[WarriorDad]

You make this sound like Magic was in a downward slide.  He is only three years older than Jordan and left the league, not because of his skills but he got HIV.  The Lakers as a team were still good but they weren't as good after Kareem retired (year before)

Ainge was never a scorer.  He was an orchestrator. 

Ewing was in his prime
Miller was in his prime
Barkley was in his prime
Isiah Thomas was still a dominant player
Alonzo Morning was in his prime
Penny was in his prime
Shaq was into prime steaks but was in the best physical condition of his career

The big difference is that in Jordan's era the East was the dominant league.  In Lebron's era the dominant league has been the West.  The one thing Lebron has over Jordan is the number of NBA finals and number in a row.  In the era of Lebron, he has basically waltzed into the finals and then lost to the dominant league.

You are right, we lost to the Knicks as MJ had retired that year when we did, I had the wrong year in my mind.

The Lakers never made a NBA final after that year and already regressed the year they got to the finals, yes mostly due to Magic and HIV.  As published here earlier, they were identified as one of the weaker teams to make a NBA final along with the Suns and Jazz in several publications.

Incorrect on Danny Ainge, the 8 years leading up to him playing at PHX he averaged 15.4 points per game, including three seasons of 17.5 or more per year with one over 20 per game.  He was a scorer, too. He was on the decline when he hit Portland and dropped off further in Phoenix.  Those last three years there he averaged under 10pts and career lows in assists over a 4 year stretch, the distributor portion of the game you speak of.

Statistically, Charles Barkley's prime was with the 76ers, I don't know how you can argue that in any way.

The others, in most cases I agree with you but that didn't make their teams that good. '96 Heat win Mourning were the 8th seed and barely made the playoffs, as an example.

In the 8 straight finals Lebron has managed to make, only twice were they even the top seed.  Meaning they didn't have home court. That is pretty rare.  When we won our 6 titles, we were the 1 seed each year, because we were a great team.  Lebron has played on so much trash he has taken a 4 seed to the finals, and number of 2 seeds.  He finds a way. To give you perspective on that, in the last 50 years with 100 teams participating in the NBA Finals, only 4 times has a #4 seed or worse made it, and three times that was in the west.

Michael went to the Finals no worse than a 1 seed each time. In the years they were a 3 seed, he was not able to will them to the Finals like Lebron has.

[GGGG]

That Lakers team beating the defending western conference Blazers was considered a pretty significant upset at the time.  The Lakers had a decent starting line-up but zero depth - years of poor drafts (mostly due to drafting near the bottom) were catching up with them. (Tony Smith not withstanding.)

Magic had some HUGE games in that series as well.  He averaged 19.4/7.0/12.5 that season so while he was slowing down, had a number of good seasons left. 

But yeah, I would say that Lakers team is the worst that MJ faced in the Finals.  And the results bear that out.

[Silkk the Shaka]

"before leaving to Miami to team up with a player almost at Pippen’s level in Wade."

Finally got around to reading through the OP. Pudner, I love your contributions to the MU & college hoops community as a whole. The value add database is awesome.

But that sentence quoted, especially written by an MU alum no less, is figuratively a literal hate crime. Wade is significantly better than Pippen and it's not even close. He was a killer, a closer, an alpha dog. Top 25 all time, #3 SG.

In the 2011 finals, games 2-4 were each decided by 1 possession. The Heat went 1-2 in those 3 games. If they win each one, it's a clean sweep, and Wade claims his second finals MVP by a decisive margin, in a series featuring Dirk, LeBron, and Bosh.

Let's examine the stats for those 3 games.

Wade: 32 PPG, 63.3% FG, 7.3 RPG, 3.3 APG, 0.7 TOPG (4.7:1 A/TO), 139 ORtg
LeBron: 15 PPG, 42.5% FG, 6.7 RPG, 5.3 APG, 5.3 TOPG (1:1 A/TO), 93 ORtg
Bosh: 18 PPG, 37.7% FG, 5.7 RPG, 2.3 APG, 2.0 TOPG (1.1:1 A/TO), 86 ORtg

So Wade equaled their scoring output **combined**, outrebounded each of them despite giving up 5+ inches, and had a 5:1 assist to turnover ratio compared to their 1:1 ratio each (LeBron averaged as many turnovers as field goals made fercrisesake!!). And Wade's offensive efficiency rating of 139 would be the best in the history of the NBA if accomplished over the course of a full season, and it was better than any LeBron finals performance, while LeBron & Bosh’s ORtg was significantly worse than any of the "help" that gets routinely excoriated on the Cavs the past few years. Wade was WAY closer to Jordan than to Pippen.

So my question is: where are all the fawning sonnets lamenting Wade's lack of "help" in 2011? Where are all the adjustments DOWN to LeBron's legacy for turning in such a trash performance with the best "help" conceivable from Wade? Where are all the adjustments up to Wade's legacy? They don't exist.

This is what annoys me so much about LeBron Stans. The hypothetical adjustments only ever go one way (in LeBron's favor, as if no other player ever had extenuating circumstances affect his resume), and his excellent teammates are denigrated in an effort to build a David out of Goliath. I begrudgingly expect Wade to get glossed over and slighted by non-MU alums, but when I see it from people who should definitely know better, it really gets my goat!

That's the last I will comment on the matter. Look forward to seeing the finalized value add database before the season starts!

[Marcus92]

The 1986-87 Lakers deserve consideration for the greatest team of all time. Their starting lineup included:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (6x NBA champion, 6x NBA MVP, HOF, NBA Top 50)
Magic Johnson (5x NBA champion, 3x NBA MVP, HOF, NBA Top 50)
James Worthy (3x NBA champion, HOF, NBA Top 50)
Byron Scott (3x NBA champion, 15,097 points)
A.C. Green (3x NBA champion, 12,331 points, 9,473 rebounds)

And off the bench:

Mychal Thompson (2x NBA champion, 12,810 points, 6,951 rebounds)
Michael Cooper (5x NBA champion, 8x All-NBA Defender)
Kurt Rambis (4x NBA champion)
Wes Matthews (2x NBA champion)

2 of the top 10 players in NBA history, and 3 of the top 50? Even though Kareem was near the end of his career, I'd take that team any day.

[HoopsMalone]

MJ wins the eyeball test.  I think that Michael is just flat out better because he could do more overall. Late 80s/early 90s Jordan in particular. He was most complete probably in 1991-92 when he added an elite jumpshot.

MJ could explode with his first step like Westbrook and Harden and then he could also explode at the hoop like young Blake Griffin where it looks like they accelerate in the air.

MJ also had those big shoulders and big grip on the ball. He could absorb contact and hold the ball and finish. He had an uncanny ability to jump in the air and finish.  Donovan Mitchell actually reminded me a little bit of the finishing ability.

MJ had better lateral quickness, especially early in his career.

I am NOT by any means saying that Lebron is soft or unathletic.  He's a monster.  He is so fun to watch.  But he's not Jordan out there.  And just because Lebron's bigger doesn't mean he can explode more or use his shoulders to finish like MJ did.  I don't get why people need to tear down MJ (or Kobe, Magic, Larry, or any of the elite big men) to enjoy Lebron.  People used to say that Kobe was for sure better than Jordan. 

It still comes back to the East during Lebron's career.  It will be hard to overcome that and the 2011 Mavs series if you are really trying make the case that Lebron is the best ever.  That all has to count.

[MU82]

Finally got around to reading through the OP. Pudner, I love your contributions to the MU & college hoops community as a whole. The value add database is awesome.

But that sentence quoted, especially written by an MU alum no less, is figuratively a literal hate crime. Wade is significantly better than Pippen and it's not even close. He was a killer, a closer, an alpha dog. Top 25 all time, #3 SG.

In the 2011 finals, games 2-4 were each decided by 1 possession. The Heat went 1-2 in those 3 games. If they win each one, it's a clean sweep, and Wade claims his second finals MVP by a decisive margin, in a series featuring Dirk, LeBron, and Bosh.

Let's examine the stats for those 3 games.

Wade: 32 PPG, 63.3% FG, 7.3 RPG, 3.3 APG, 0.7 TOPG (4.7:1 A/TO), 139 ORtg
LeBron: 15 PPG, 42.5% FG, 6.7 RPG, 5.3 APG, 5.3 TOPG (1:1 A/TO), 93 ORtg
Bosh: 18 PPG, 37.7% FG, 5.7 RPG, 2.3 APG, 2.0 TOPG (1.1:1 A/TO), 86 ORtg

So Wade equaled their scoring output **combined**, outrebounded each of them despite giving up 5+ inches, and had a 5:1 assist to turnover ratio compared to their 1:1 ratio each (LeBron averaged as many turnovers as field goals made fercrisesake!!). And Wade's offensive efficiency rating of 139 would be the best in the history of the NBA if accomplished over the course of a full season, and it was better than any LeBron finals performance, while LeBron & Bosh’s ORtg was significantly worse than any of the "help" that gets routinely excoriated on the Cavs the past few years. Wade was WAY closer to Jordan than to Pippen.

So my question is: where are all the fawning sonnets lamenting Wade's lack of "help" in 2011? Where are all the adjustments DOWN to LeBron's legacy for turning in such a trash performance with the best "help" conceivable from Wade? Where are all the adjustments up to Wade's legacy? They don't exist.

This is what annoys me so much about LeBron Stans. The hypothetical adjustments only ever go one way (in LeBron's favor, as if no other player ever had extenuating circumstances affect his resume), and his excellent teammates are denigrated in an effort to build a David out of Goliath. I begrudgingly expect Wade to get glossed over and slighted by non-MU alums, but when I see it from people who should definitely know better, it really gets my goat!

That's the last I will comment on the matter. Look forward to seeing the finalized value add database before the season starts!

Not sure if I meet the description of "LeBron Stans," but I do really admire his game. And I do agree with you about Wade in this instance you cite.

Wade vs. Pippen? I don't need advanced stats to know it isn't even close. I saw both play hundreds and hundreds of games with my own eyes. Wade carried a team with an older Shaq and a bunch of role players to an NBA title, something Scottie couldn't have done in his wildest dreams. Wade is a top-20 (maybe higher) player all-time. Scottie was a fine wing-man.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Not sure if I meet the description of "LeBron Stans," but I do really admire his game. And I do agree with you about Wade in this instance you cite.

Wade vs. Pippen? I don't need advanced stats to know it isn't even close. I saw both play hundreds and hundreds of games with my own eyes. Wade carried a team with an older Shaq and a bunch of role players to an NBA title, something Scottie couldn't have done in his wildest dreams. Wade is a top-20 (maybe higher) player all-time. Scottie was a fine wing-man.

Ha it's okay if you do meet the description. You and Auburn are both top 5 posters on here in my book. We can't all agree on everything all the time! Luckily it appears we see eye to eye on Wade