Wade's Ex-Teammate LeBron Passes Jordan for GOAT; 11:33 p.m. Tweet Makes Nev #1

[GGGG]

I saw this the other day and still think it more accurately reflects the comparison, though it's all still opinion, no matter whose information you use or believe:

Jordan vs LeBron

Updated after Lebrons 14th season. Michael Jordan has:
•3 more rings
•3 more final mvps
•1 more DPOY
•1 more season MVP
•9 more scoring titles
•3 more steals leader
•3 more all defensive team selections
•4000 more points / bron moved past him in playoff points, but it took him longer.
•800 more steals
•Beat 20 50+ win teams in the playoffs (Lebron only defeated 10)
•Jordan never averaged less than 40% Field Goal in the finals
Lebron did it twice
•6/6 (never allowed a game 7)
•Lebron had much more offensive help, example:
Jordan never had a teammate average more than 22 points in the finals.. In fact, Mj is Only player in NBA history to lead a team to the championship with only one teammate averaging double figures in scoring
* In the Bulls’ 1997 playoff run, Scottie Pippen averaged 19 points per game on 42% shooting. All other teammates of Jordan averaged under 8 points per game
Kyrie averaged over 28 and DWade averaged more than 26
•MJ never ever had a finals meltdown like Lebron in 2011 against the Mavs
•MJ had more points in the playoffs in less games..
MJ accomplished all of this in 13 seasons
Lebron after his 14th season, is still chasing the “ghost (GOAT) that played in Chicago”
•Michael Jordan in the playoffs has put up atleast 40ppg, 5rpg, 5apg in 6 different playoff series. Along with an average of about 55% shooting, 3spg and 2bpg.
(86 vs bos, 89 vs cavs, 90 vs philly, 92 vs Miami, 93 vs Phoenix, 88 vs cavs) Jordan won every one of those matchups except for the 1986 matchup vs the celtics.
•Jordan in 88-89 averaged 32ppg, 8apg, 8rpg, 3spg off 54% shooting. LeBron has never even came close to this stat line.
•in 87 thru 92, MJ averaged 5 straight seasons of atleast 51% FG shooting. LeBron has never done this.
•the lowest FT% MJ ever shot in a season was 78%. Lebrons highest in a season ever is 78%.
•MJ has a higher playoff FG% of 48.7% to Lebrons 48.3%
•MJ has a higher playoff player efficiency rating of 28.6 to Lebrons 27.3.
•MJ shoots a higher playoff 3 point percentage of 33.2% to Lebrons 32.9%
•LeBron James has scored 30 points, 416 times in 1,117 games.
Michael Jordan did it 562 times in 1,072 games.
Jordan won 6 championships without losing a final in 1,072 games and LeBron in 1,117 games has lost 5 times and has only won 3 times (updated 2018)
•MJ also shocked the league by being the first (and only) player to have 100 blocks and 200 steals in the same season, then turned around and did it again the next year..
•Mj also has more career blocks (893) than Lebron James (853) despite playing in 22 LESS career games and being the smaller guy.
Also, MJ averaged 1.6 blocks per game in the 1987-88 season which is absolutely bonkers for a 6’6″ shooting guard.
Seriously this list can keep going. This isn’t even a debate. Mj is the GOAT.
MIchael Jordan:
•NBA record 5 playoffs series’ averaging atleast 40ppg
•Only player in history to lead league in scoring and win DPOY
•Highest scoring average, points per game, in any championship series:
41.0 vs. Phoenix Suns, 1993 NBA Finals
•Only rookie in NBA history to lead his team in four statistics (1984–85)
•Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring, win Most Valuable Player, and Defensive Player of the Year in the same season (1987–88)
•Only player in history to average at least 30pts 6reb 5assists And 2 steals per game AND HE DID IT 7 TIMES.
•Only player in NBA history to win Rookie of the Year (1984–85), Defensive Player of the Year (1987–88), NBA MVP (1987–88, 1990–91, 1991–92, 1995–96, 1997–98), All-Star MVP (1988, 1996, 1998), and Finals MVP (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998)
•Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring and win the NBA championship MORE THAN ONCE in the same season
* He did this SIX TIMES!! (1990–91, 1991–92, 1992–93, 1995–96, 1996–97, 1997–98)
•One of two players in NBA history to score 3,000 points in a season: 3,041 points scored in 82 games played (37.1 ppg) (1986–87)
* Wilt Chamberlain is the only other player to achieve this.
•MJ is also the only player in NBA history to score over 40 points at age 40, and he did it twice!
•In 1988, MJ earned: Dunk Champ, All Star Game MVP, NBA Scoring Title, League MVP and Defensive Player of the Year.
Michael in only ELEVEN complete seasons with the Bulls:
-10 scoring titles,
-Won Defensive Player of the Year,
-9 times all defensive team,
-9time All NBA,
-5 league MVPs
-6 finals MVPs
All 11 seasons. Mj has done in 11 seasons things Lebron hasn’t done and won’t do in his whole career…

Some of these are silly and some are team stats, but some really are pretty relevant, and why I think MJ still has a slight edge.

[WarriorDad]

Very good analysis, though it's incomplete.

You ignore the fact that LeBron is taking average teams to the Finals in an incredibly mediocre conference. The current Cavs team might not even be better than the Price/Dougherty/Ehlo/Nance Cavs teams of the early 90s who never made it to the Finals. Do you think LeBron is winning the East 8 straight seasons if he's going against the Riley-led Knicks or Heat year after year? Orlando and Indiana also had some teams that were better than anyone currently in the East. In Jordan's era, half of the league wasn't tanking either.

Don't get me wrong, LeBron going to 8 straight Finals is all kinds of impressive and he is firmly entrenched in the #2 spot all-time. He's simply not better nor more valuable than Michael Jordan.

Conversely Michael's teams took on a lot of paper weights in the finals, and I say that as a Bulls fan of more than 40 years.  Lebron's team also beat a 73 win team for the championship, which had never been done before.

[WarriorDad]

A case can easily be made for Kareem. We think of Olajuwon as a great player, but his best Win Shares season was only 60% of Kareem's best year.

A young Kareem was stunning - in college there was no way to stop him, so they changed the rules to do so. Much as they did with Wilt in the NBA.

Kareem was a stud.  He also played in college when the dunk was outlawed.  Grace

[BallBoy]

I love the argument that LeBron played with nobody and got them to the finals. He had probably the greatest team on paper of all time and he went two and two.

He then left to go back to Cleveland with Kyrie and Love. The talk is he is going to leave Cleveland and get on another team of young superstars.

In the era of the super team, half the NBA is flat out horrible. The east this year is horrible. The Raptors were the best team which says it all.

Lebron is today’s modern day Wilt. Great numbers and lots of runs to championships but he doesn’t win. Jordan played against the best and won. Ewing, Miller, Magic, Bird, freckled, Kemp, Thomas, et al. 6-0 when it mattered.

[SaveOD238]

I love the argument that LeBron played with nobody and got them to the finals. He had probably the greatest team on paper of all time and he went two and two.

He played on the 2016 Warriors? 

Oh no, never mind, he BEAT the 2016 Warriors.

For what it's worth, in his 9 NBA Finals, LeBron has been the underdog in most of them:

2007: underdogs to Spurs (LOST)
2011: favored over the Mavs (LOST)
2012: slight underdogs to the Thunder (WON)
2013: slightly favored over Spurs (WON)
2014: slight underdogs to Spurs (LOST)
2015: underdogs to Warriors (LOST)
2016: heavy underdogs to Warriors (WON)
2017: underdogs to Warriors (LOST)
2018: heavy underdogs to Warriors (????)

In my opinion, the only Finals LeBron SHOULD have won but didn't was 2011 to the Mavs.  The rest of the time, when LeBron lost (twice to the Spurs and twice, maybe thrice, to the Warriors) he was on the weaker team, sometimes by a significant margin.

[WarriorDad]

I love the argument that LeBron played with nobody and got them to the finals. He had probably the greatest team on paper of all time and he went two and two.

He then left to go back to Cleveland with Kyrie and Love. The talk is he is going to leave Cleveland and get on another team of young superstars.

In the era of the super team, half the NBA is flat out horrible. The east this year is horrible. The Raptors were the best team which says it all.

Lebron is today’s modern day Wilt. Great numbers and lots of runs to championships but he doesn’t win. Jordan played against the best and won. Ewing, Miller, Magic, Bird, freckled, Kemp, Thomas, et al. 6-0 when it mattered.

Michael also lost a lot of games and series to not make the Finals.  Mostly against the Pistons.  Lebron doesn't win?  How many teams has he taken to the Finals that had no business being there?  Last night was a great example of how any teammate with half a brain puts them over the top.

Michael's 6-0 is amazing, but some of those against fairly average teams like the Lakers, Jazz and Suns teams.  That Lakers team Worthy and Scott didn't play for several games and Marquette's Tony Smith had to play. Magic never played in another Finals because that team was done.

Lebron on those Bulls teams also goes 6-0.  Michael on all of these Cavs teams, doesn't make it to the Finals as much in my opinion, and I say that as a Bulls fan.

[Lennys Tap]

I say that as a Bulls fan.

LOL

[auburnmarquette]

Hey Auburn, where are you seeing that Alexander left Tennessee and Alexander-Walker left Virginia Tech? As far as I can tell, both are set to return next season.

Oh, thank you! I was going off a list that seemed to show everyone who was returning to college in a column, but it could be some were not updated so thanks for the catch. For some reason noone has put out a list since the deadline of midnight.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Oh, thank you! I was going off a list that seemed to show everyone who was returning to college in a column, but it could be some were not updated so thanks for the catch. For some reason noone has put out a list since the deadline of midnight.

I don't believe Alexander-Walker ever declared and therefore he wouldn't show up on a list of withdrawing players.

[auburnmarquette]

A case can easily be made for Kareem. We think of Olajuwon as a great player, but his best Win Shares season was only 60% of Kareem's best year.

A young Kareem was stunning - in college there was no way to stop him, so they changed the rules to do so. Much as they did with Wilt in the NBA.

Agree Kareem is the other legit contender of the three, and certainly Lighthouse and Lazar's Canadian lay out great arguments for Jordan as GOAT as well. My little bias against Kareem if we said he was "tied" with Jordan and LeBron is my tie-breaker would be he could only play one position. He did need someone to get it to him in the post - granted he was an easy target - but for me LeBron being able to play any of the five positions well to fill any hole gives him the edge, and granted Jordan could be good any place except center.

But definitely legit argument for Kareem.

Wilt and Russell just outside it - but in some ways like a LeBron-Jordan comparison with Russell having the championships but in that case Wilt having the clear statistical edge side-by-side.

I believe Adam Silver is laughing all the way to the bank as we all tune in to love or hate LeBron :-)

[auburnmarquette]

I love the argument that LeBron played with nobody and got them to the finals. He had probably the greatest team on paper of all time and he went two and two.

He then left to go back to Cleveland with Kyrie and Love. The talk is he is going to leave Cleveland and get on another team of young superstars.

In the era of the super team, half the NBA is flat out horrible. The east this year is horrible. The Raptors were the best team which says it all.

Lebron is today’s modern day Wilt. Great numbers and lots of runs to championships but he doesn’t win. Jordan played against the best and won. Ewing, Miller, Magic, Bird, freckled, Kemp, Thomas, et al. 6-0 when it mattered.

Fair point, but my argument is that he took a few terrible teams to the finals. Before getting to Miami he was dragging terrible teams. Then he had the year when Kyrie and Love both went down so the team he dragged there was terrible. Then this years team is pathetic and Love's defense is so bad he seems barely above average.

So my point is he took a few terrible teams to the Finals. Jordan had 5 teams without another Hall of Famer on them and averaged going 30-52.

I do admit though that Jordan's top three seasons were probably a little better than any of James' seasons, so I could see a "Jordan greatest peak performance, but LeBron greatest sustained over a long career," though one of the other good arguments for Jordan above was adding what he did at UNC as a balance to LeBron getting an earlier start in the NBA.

[auburnmarquette]

I don't believe Alexander-Walker ever declared and therefore he wouldn't show up on a list of withdrawing players.

Got it - strange, he was on a grid that I was using that seems 99% accurate but I just pulled up this preview and new Top 25 and they definitely list him as a key returning player so it looks like you are right.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/2018-19-college-basketball-rankings-changes-in-top-25-and-1-after-ncaa-draft-withdrawal-deadline/

[Dr. Blackheart]

What's interesting in the video I shared is those were all Eastern Conference teams.  Lots of all time greats back then that Jordan played against in a very physical conference.

Switch over to the more finesse driven Western Conference with Magic, Kareem, Malone, Drexler, Barkley and Jordan could switch it up and dominate there too. 

I don't see that same dichotomy of play or quality of competition for LeBron, but he is carrying and absolute crappy team on his back too.

Btw, KD is looking ver old.

[Galway Eagle]

What's interesting in the video I shared is those were all Eastern Conference teams.  Lots of all time greats back then that Jordan played against in a very physical conference.

Switch over to the more finesse driven Western Conference with Magic, Kareem, Malone, Drexler, Barkley and Jordan could switch it up and dominate there too. 

I don't see that same dichotomy of play or quality of competition for LeBron, but he is carrying and absolute crappy team on his back too.

Btw, KD is looking ver old.

Barkley was in the east for half his career and majority of time he and Jordan overlapped for the record

[MerrittsMustache]

So my point is he took a few terrible teams to the Finals. Jordan had 5 teams without another Hall of Famer on them and averaged going 30-52.

Where did this number come from? It's wrong.

The Bulls went 38-44 in Jordan's rookie season then went 30-52 in the year he broke his foot and only played 18 games (they went 9-9 with him and 21-43 without him). The Bulls then went 40-42 the year prior to Pippen's arrival. I assume that you're also counting the Wizard years when the team went 37-45 both seasons with a late-30s Jordan. That doesn't compute to a 30-win average. Also, Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving are better than anyone on those Bulls or Wizards teams.

Let me ask you this...How many star players/future HOFers did LeBron defeat in the playoffs while dragging teams to the Finals? A declining Vince Carter and a mid-30s Jason Kidd were in NJ. Who else? Al Horford? Pau Gasol? DeMar DeRozan? Paul George? Not exactly a who's who of NBA legends, huh?

[Its DJOver]

Let me ask you this...How many star players/future HOFers did LeBron defeat in the playoffs while dragging teams to the Finals? A declining Vince Carter and a mid-30s Jason Kidd were in NJ. Who else? Al Horford? Pau Gasol? DeMar DeRozan? Paul George? Not exactly a who's who of NBA legends, huh?

This kind of invalidates some of the arguments that you made in the NBA thread.  What HOFers did Lebron have with him?  A mid 30s Allen, a post prime injury prone Wade?  I think Kyrie will get there, but based of his current body of work, he's not there yet. 

There's always gonna be arguments for both to be the GOAT.  Arguing it on a message board won't change anyone's mind one way or the other.  The only thing that can change people's minds is what Lebron does in his 3-5 more years being the dominant player that he currently is.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

What if instead of GOAT we talked about best of a decade? Basketball has changed so much over the years that its hard to compare individuals.

50s: Pettit? Not sure there's anyone 50s or sooner that is in the GOAT conversation
60s: Russell? Chamberlain?
70s: Abdul-Jabbar
80s: Magic? Bird? Jordan?
90s: Jordan
00s: James? Kobe? Shaq? Duncan?
10s: James

[MerrittsMustache]

This kind of invalidates some of the arguments that you made in the NBA thread.  What HOFers did Lebron have with him?  A mid 30s Allen, a post prime injury prone Wade?  I think Kyrie will get there, but based of his current body of work, he's not there yet. 

There's always gonna be arguments for both to be the GOAT.  Arguing it on a message board won't change anyone's mind one way or the other.  The only thing that can change people's minds is what Lebron does in his 3-5 more years being the dominant player that he currently is.

You may Wade "post prime" but he still ranked 3rd, 3rd and 7th in PER during LBJ's first 3 seasons in Miami. You're selling him a bit short.

Allen was the perfect role player for that team and hit the biggest shot in Heat history.

You're also leaving out 11-time All-Star Chris Bosh.

[Its DJOver]

You may Wade "post prime" but he still ranked 3rd, 3rd and 7th in PER during LBJ's first 3 seasons in Miami. You're selling him a bit short.

Allen was the perfect role player for that team and hit the biggest shot in Heat history.

You're also leaving out 11-time All-Star Chris Bosh.

PER is adjusted for minutes played so it doesn't factor that Wade missed over a third of the season in '11-'12.
You kinda prove my point by calling Allen a role player. Not exactly a take over a game type HOFer at that point in his career.
Bosh's ppg in Miami over the 4 years that Lebron was there average out to 17.3.  That's on par with what JJ Reddick put up this year and would not be top 30 in the league.  He's got a chance based on what he did in Toronto, but once again, not exactly in his prime and fully healthy.

Once again, there will always be arguments for both Lebron and Jordan to be the GOAT, but nothing that I or anyone else has said here has done a thing to change your mind so my advise is to wait until Lebron's career is over, then make a decision on who you thought was better and that's it, you have reached your conclusion.

[BallBoy]

Fair point, but my argument is that he took a few terrible teams to the finals. Before getting to Miami he was dragging terrible teams. Then he had the year when Kyrie and Love both went down so the team he dragged there was terrible. Then this years team is pathetic and Love's defense is so bad he seems barely above average.

So my point is he took a few terrible teams to the Finals. Jordan had 5 teams without another Hall of Famer on them and averaged going 30-52.

I do admit though that Jordan's top three seasons were probably a little better than any of James' seasons, so I could see a "Jordan greatest peak performance, but LeBron greatest sustained over a long career," though one of the other good arguments for Jordan above was adding what he did at UNC as a balance to LeBron getting an earlier start in the NBA.

1.  My counter would be his Terrible teams were still better than the rest of the East.  So getting to the finals was a cake walk relative to the path that Jordan had to take.  Then looking at the rest of the east the few good players consolidated onto single teams.  Celtics and Miami.  As Miami was taking off the Celtics broke up and Allen ended up on Miami.  Who did James win against that was amazing?
2.  Prior to Miami, he only took one Cleveland team to the NBA Finals so he didn't drag many subpar teams to the finals.  Post Miami, he was in the Kyrie/Love teams in Cleveland and he only won one (maybe two).  You could say this year's team is a subpar team but I would ask who in the east did he beat that was good.  An upstart Celtics team sans Kyrie?
3.  When he got to the finals he lost.  He doesn't have a winning record in the finals. 

Lebron is one of the GOAT but not the GOAT.  He is the modern day Wilt.  Dominates his position.  Gets to Finals and then loses.

[Galway Eagle]

1.  My counter would be his Terrible teams were still better than the rest of the East.  So getting to the finals was a cake walk relative to the path that Jordan had to take.  Then looking at the rest of the east the few good players consolidated onto single teams.  Celtics and Miami.  As Miami was taking off the Celtics broke up and Allen ended up on Miami.  Who did James win against that was amazing?
2.  Prior to Miami, he only took one Cleveland team to the NBA Finals so he didn't drag many subpar teams to the finals.  Post Miami, he was in the Kyrie/Love teams in Cleveland and he only won one (maybe two).  You could say this year's team is a subpar team but I would ask who in the east did he beat that was good.  An upstart Celtics team sans Kyrie?
3.  When he got to the finals he lost.  He doesn't have a winning record in the finals. 

Lebron is one of the GOAT but not the GOAT.  He is the modern day Wilt.  Dominates his position.  Gets to Finals and then loses.

The bulls had a couple good runs in there.

[MerrittsMustache]

PER is adjusted for minutes played so it doesn't factor that Wade missed over a third of the season in '11-'12.
You kinda prove my point by calling Allen a role player. Not exactly a take over a game type HOFer at that point in his career.
Bosh's ppg in Miami over the 4 years that Lebron was there average out to 17.3.  That's on par with what JJ Reddick put up this year and would not be top 30 in the league.  He's got a chance based on what he did in Toronto, but once again, not exactly in his prime and fully healthy.

Once again, there will always be arguments for both Lebron and Jordan to be the GOAT, but nothing that I or anyone else has said here has done a thing to change your mind so my advise is to wait until Lebron's career is over, then make a decision on who you thought was better and that's it, you have reached your conclusion.

Wade played in 49 of 66 games (74%) in 2011-12.

You brought up Ray Allen. He was, as I said, the perfect role player for that team. You're right that he wasn't a superstar at that point but take away Allen and do the Heat win the title that season? Nope. He spread the floor and hit clutch shots.

Bosh's scoring went down because he was on a team with LeBron and Wade. He also averaged 7.5 rebounds, was the best defensive player on those teams and averaged 8.6 win shares per season (higher than anyone aside from MJ on the 97-98 Bulls and equal to Pippen in 92-93). Chris Bosh will be in the Hall of Fame.

[BallBoy]

The bulls had a couple good runs in there.

They did.  With basically two different teams.  In his first run, he had Pippen, Grant, and Cartwright with the greats of Paxson and BJ Armstrong. 

In the second run, he had Pippen, Rodman, Harper, Longley, Kukoc.  This being the teams most remember. 

During those runs he beat teams like
NY - Ewing, Jackson, Greg Anthony, Doc River, Mason, Oakley
Pacers - Miller, Mullen, Rose, Jackson
Lakers - Magic, Worthy, Valdy
Piston - Thomas, Laimbeer, Dumars, Rodman
Magic - Shaq, Penny, Nick Anderson
Suns - Barkley, Kevin Johnson, Ainge
Jazz, - Malone, Stockton
Portland - Clyde Drexler, Ainge, Duckworth

That is the whose who of NBA Superstars. 

[Its DJOver]

Wade played in 49 of 66 games (74%) in 2011-12.

You brought up Ray Allen. He was, as I said, the perfect role player for that team. You're right that he wasn't a superstar at that point but take away Allen and do the Heat win the title that season? Nope. He spread the floor and hit clutch shots.

Bosh's scoring went down because he was on a team with LeBron and Wade. He also averaged 7.5 rebounds, was the best defensive player on those teams and averaged 8.6 win shares per season (higher than anyone aside from MJ on the 97-98 Bulls and equal to Pippen in 92-93). Chris Bosh will be in the Hall of Fame.

See below.

Once again, there will always be arguments for both Lebron and Jordan to be the GOAT, but nothing that I or anyone else has said here has done a thing to change your mind so my advise is to wait until Lebron's career is over, then make a decision on who you thought was better and that's it, you have reached your conclusion.

You give off the impression of sour grapes when Auburn (who is the best advanced stats guy IMO) does a write up on why Lebron is the GOAT including all the advanced stats that he is known for and your response is to immediately throw shade at the entire Eastern Conference for a decade.  I get it, you're a Chicago guy.  You'll defend the bulls and MJ until the day you die and nothing will change your mind.

[Silkk the Shaka]

This kind of invalidates some of the arguments that you made in the NBA thread.  What HOFers did Lebron have with him?  A mid 30s Allen, a post prime injury prone Wade? I think Kyrie will get there, but based of his current body of work, he's not there yet. 

There's always gonna be arguments for both to be the GOAT.  Arguing it on a message board won't change anyone's mind one way or the other.  The only thing that can change people's minds is what Lebron does in his 3-5 more years being the dominant player that he currently is.

This is one of the things that annoys me the most about LeBron Stans. To build up his myth they denigrate and downplay Wade. Wade was by far the best player on the court in the 2011 finals. Should have been the MVP. Not enough "help" for LeBron?

Wade's PER rank by year with LeBron

2011: #3
2012: #3
2013: #7
2014: #14

He was definitely injured in the 2014 finals, but he's the #3 SG & a top 25 player all time.

Also, Bosh is definitely a hall of famer. Did you just forget that?