White Privilege at MU

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Why no outrage about privilege and cultural appropriation accusations with the outfits at the Met Gala last night?

"Them Catholics, let's dress up like they do.  No one will care.  I call the slutty pope."

[Pakuni]

Why no outrage about privilege and cultural appropriation accusations with the outfits at the Met Gala last night?

"Them Catholics, let's dress up like they do.  No one will care.  I call the slutty pope."

1. There's plenty of outrage.
2. Which only serves to prove that it's not just the "libtards" and "SJWs" in a great big hurry to claim victim status.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/catholics-slam-met-galas-religious-inspired-outfits-blasphemous-103159024.html

[mu03eng]

1. There's plenty of outrage.
2. Which only serves to prove that it's not just the "libtards" and "SJWs" in a great big hurry to claim victim status.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/catholics-slam-met-galas-religious-inspired-outfits-blasphemous-103159024.html

We live in the era of outrage culture regardless of political/social affiliation. It's kind of amazing.

[4everwarriors]

Lenny Bruce said "fook you" is a good thin' and I hoe hardily agree wit 'im. Next time y'all wanna greet yo friends or kin properly, insted of sayin' "yo" orr "hi," tell 'em, "fook you," aina?

[mu03eng]

A topic that some may have missed but seems very relevant given the conversation is the Halsey/hotel shampoo online dust-up from a few weeks ago.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/04/30/singer-halsey-stirs-debate-over-hotels-offering-only-white-people-shampoo/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6f4ec3581bec

This is a perfect illustration of how the institutionalization of racism is and how difficult it is to have a rational conversation about it. Are hotels racist for not providing shampoo, probably not overtly but I'd be really shocked if they thought about differing hair types either and what shampoo works for those styles. Intended or not, some might feel they are excluded because of an oversight like this. Most of us scoff at the thought of a shampoo controversy, but it's a great example of where there is a mismatch in information/experience amongst groups of people that could be avoided with thoughtful discussion.

I'm hopeful that we are moving to a time where we can have thoughtful/rational discussions without making everything a disaster or reason for boycott/protest/counterprotest. Let's keep our outrage powder dry for when it really matters.

[4everwarriors]

Don't understand y wee kant all look alike, like a world of Waldos. Sure wood get ridda lots of hatred, hey?

[Dr. Blackheart]

Don't understand y wee kant all look alike, like a world of Waldos. Sure wood get ridda lots of hatred, hey?

Sexbots will solve that, hey?

[Dr. Blackheart]

Interesting perspective....

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/07/21/politics/charlamagne-tha-god-black-privilege/index.html

[rocket surgeon]

A topic that some may have missed but seems very relevant given the conversation is the Halsey/hotel shampoo online dust-up from a few weeks ago.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/04/30/singer-halsey-stirs-debate-over-hotels-offering-only-white-people-shampoo/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6f4ec3581bec

This is a perfect illustration of how the institutionalization of racism is and how difficult it is to have a rational conversation about it. Are hotels racist for not providing shampoo, probably not overtly but I'd be really shocked if they thought about differing hair types either and what shampoo works for those styles. Intended or not, some might feel they are excluded because of an oversight like this. Most of us scoff at the thought of a shampoo controversy, but it's a great example of where there is a mismatch in information/experience amongst groups of people that could be avoided with thoughtful discussion.

I'm hopeful that we are moving to a time where we can have thoughtful/rational discussions without making everything a disaster or reason for boycott/protest/counterprotest. Let's keep our outrage powder dry for when it really matters.

i never knew there was such a thing as "white people shampoo".    well, i'm goin a little thin on top-any cue-ball shine?  this could go on and on...food offerings, etc etc...at a time when we need to bring people together, many want to divide and separate. 
   
     from a business perspective, this could get out of hand.  if the hotel one is staying at doesn't offer what one feels is a necessity, try another place that will cater to you.  we can't mandate these places have all the things for all people.  one thing i will not do is complain about the food at a restaurant.  i really don't want the thoughts of spit or any other bodily fluids going thru my head as i'm eating my "cheeseburger" if ya know what i mean.  vote with your wallet 

[Pakuni]

i never knew there was such a thing as "white people shampoo".    well, i'm goin a little thin on top-any cue-ball shine?  this could go on and on...food offerings, etc etc...at a time when we need to bring people together, many want to divide and separate. 
   
     from a business perspective, this could get out of hand.  if the hotel one is staying at doesn't offer what one feels is a necessity, try another place that will cater to you.  we can't mandate these places have all the things for all people.  one thing i will not do is complain about the food at a restaurant.  i really don't want the thoughts of spit or any other bodily fluids going thru my head as i'm eating my "cheeseburger" if ya know what i mean.  vote with your wallet

I'm afraid you're missing the point. This isn't about dividing people or mandating anything. Rather, it's just another item on what I imagine is a long list of daily reminders to minorities that they are viewed as "others" by many of our institutions. Nobody's claiming racism or discrimination or demanding anything. Just pointing out how they receive different accommodations.

[rocket surgeon]

I'm afraid you're missing the point. This isn't about dividing people or mandating anything. Rather, it's just another item on what I imagine is a long list of daily reminders to minorities that they are viewed as "others" by many of our institutions. Nobody's claiming racism or discrimination or demanding anything. Just pointing out how they receive different accommodations.

that is one way to look at it and you aren't wrong, but...code words-"white"  that is divisive.
 
    i don't think i am missing any points

mandate?  well that all depends

how about minorities assimilate and acclimate.  if a certain business does not meet their needs-don't spend your money there

i'm just pointing out how it is perceived by some when they claim they aren't getting the accommodations they need

[mu03eng]

I'm afraid you're missing the point. This isn't about dividing people or mandating anything. Rather, it's just another item on what I imagine is a long list of daily reminders to minorities that they are viewed as "others" by many of our institutions. Nobody's claiming racism or discrimination or demanding anything. Just pointing out how they receive different accommodations.

Correct, it's really about the fact that people don't think about it rather than they did something intentional. Not as divisive but something I've personally noticed and annoys me to the point that I will actually say something.....when I go some place with male and female bathrooms and only the female bathroom has a changing table for a kid. Whether they've thought about it or not, that business is baking into the pie the concept that only women would change a diaper. I don't think the businesses are intentionally saying women should be the caregivers for kids but they are also not thinking it and it reinforces a behavior that we don't necessarily want to reinforce.

[mu03eng]

that is one way to look at it and you aren't wrong, but...code words-"white"  that is divisive.
 
    i don't think i am missing any points

mandate?  well that all depends

how about minorities assimilate and acclimate.  if a certain business does not meet their needs-don't spend your money there

i'm just pointing out how it is perceived by some when they claim they aren't getting the accommodations they need

You are missing the point. Halsey and others aren't necessarily demanding accommodations and I'm fairly certain those with specific hair needs and/or are on the road for long periods of time have assimilated by bringing their own products (I know my wife does where as I never do). However, it is a great example of where the absence of thought or empathy with someone else's experience can lead to that person/group feeling ostracized.

And the tyranny of the majority (hey minority group, just assimilate) doesn't lend itself well to harmonious experiences when the groups interact.

[Pakuni]

how about minorities assimilate and acclimate.

Assimilate and accliimate the genes that produce their hair? So, voluntary eugenics?

[GGGG]

Yes.  The racial group that was originally brought over as slaves should assimilate and acclimate instead of pointing out the everyday biases that they have to live with.

I mean, how rude.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

i never knew there was such a thing as "white people shampoo".   

There is. Black hair is very different from white hair at a biological level. They require different kinds of shampoos in order to maintain. The shampoos provided by most major hotel chains (if not all) would not work black hair. I'm not an expert in this topic but I believe white shampoo could even be damaging to black hair.

I don't think anyone is demanding that all hotels be mandated to carry different kinds of shampoo. Its merely pointing out one of the thousands small every day things that cater to white people and not to people of color.

[mu03eng]

There is. Black hair is very different from white hair at a biological level. They require different kinds of shampoos in order to maintain. The shampoos provided by most major hotel chains (if not all) would not work black hair. I'm not an expert in this topic but I believe white shampoo could even be damaging to black hair.

I don't think anyone is demanding that all hotels be mandated to carry different kinds of shampoo. Its merely pointing out one of the thousands small every day things that cater to white people and not to people of color.

One note, and not picking on you, just the way you wrote it made me think of it. Really this is a "genetic issue" that predominately impacts black hair(there are some white people that would have the same issue but it's much rarer). There are plenty of ethnicites that have this issue, a lot of them are minority, hence your point of how the system caters to the white majority subconsciously.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

One note, and not picking on you, just the way you wrote it made me think of it. Really this is a "genetic issue" that predominately impacts black hair(there are some white people that would have the same issue but it's much rarer). There are plenty of ethnicites that have this issue, a lot of them are minority, hence your point of how the system caters to the white majority subconsciously.

I appreciate the correction. Like I said I am not an expert in the topic by any means. I just know what I have been told anecdotally by others.

[GooooMarquette]

Late to the thread, but I didn't see any discussion about something that jumped out at me.

First, I'll say I am white, and agree that white privilege is a "thing." That open dialogue is a great step toward leveling the playing field. That minorities shouldn't be told to "just assimilate and deal with it." That the concept of "being colorblind" might work on a micro level, but we aren't anywhere close on a macro level. And that it's everybody's responsibility to work toward change.

But the comment from the VP of Student Affairs about creating "more safe spaces?" How does setting up separate areas for people to segregate themselves help to solve the problem? Seems to me it would do the opposite. We need to work together to solve the problem, not further isolate ourselves into silos and hope that "the other side" fixes it.

[Jockey]

You are missing the point. Halsey and others aren't necessarily demanding accommodations and I'm fairly certain those with specific hair needs and/or are on the road for long periods of time have assimilated by bringing their own products (I know my wife does where as I never do). However, it is a great example of where the absence of thought or empathy with someone else's experience can lead to that person/group feeling ostracized.

And the tyranny of the majority (hey minority group, just assimilate) doesn't lend itself well to harmonious experiences when the groups interact.

I saw brain surgeon's remarks in your post and can't say that I am surprised by him saying it is up to minorities to "become more white" or "acclimated" to sound more PC.

I agree with your posts completely. I don't think it is any racist attempt by hotels with their choice of shampoos. Simply catering to the vast majority of customers. Hopefully, and I don't know the answer to this, at least the better hotels have other shampoos that minorities can request.

[chapman]

But the comment from the VP of Student Affairs about creating "more safe spaces?" How does setting up separate areas for people to segregate themselves help to solve the problem? Seems to me it would do the opposite. We need to work together to solve the problem, not further isolate ourselves into silos and hope that "the other side" fixes it.

Don't want one of these right on the bridge in the library?

https://twitter.com/aJackieLarsen/status/988820882717003776/photo/1

i never knew there was such a thing as "white people shampoo".    well, i'm goin a little thin on top-any cue-ball shine?  this could go on and on...food offerings, etc etc...at a time when we need to bring people together, many want to divide and separate. 

The free market is a beautiful thing.  They would make changes if there was an unmet need, but no one of any race really gives a damn about hotel shampoo. 

Contrast that to what Uber did in the outer boroughs of New York, where in many neighborhoods a yellow cab was a myth since taxis wouldn't venture into many neighborhoods with high minority populations, and there were instances of drivers driving right by people of color.  By individualizing riders and through the app-based payment method, they've fought discrimination and have had the cabbies crying for years now.

[Pakuni]

The free market is a beautiful thing.

As are most fantasies and myths.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

But the comment from the VP of Student Affairs about creating "more safe spaces?" How does setting up separate areas for people to segregate themselves help to solve the problem? Seems to me it would do the opposite. We need to work together to solve the problem, not further isolate ourselves into silos and hope that "the other side" fixes it.

Safe space is an often misunderstood term. Safe space refers to a meeting, group, office, event, etc where people from different backgrounds can come together to discuss difficult topics without fear of being personally attacked or retaliated against for their opinions/beliefs. The idea behind them is that people from "both sides" can come together to have dialogue and make progress towards a common understanding.

Unfortunately, people on the extremes of both sides have corrupted the term with people on the left sometimes using it as a weapon to shut people down and people on the right making it out to be kumbaya orgy circles where no dissenting opinions are allowed. Some people have tried rebranding them to "brave spaces" or "challenge spaces" and some other terms but none have caught on.

IMHO, the VPSA made a mistake by using the term since it is so often misunderstood and is often a lightening rod for criticism. Something like "opportunities for dialogue" or something would have been better. The word choice wasn't the best but the idea is sound.

[WarriorInNYC]

Speech is a tough question. Where do you draw the line? If someone tells a student "hey, nice a$$" should the school punish them for that? Some would call that a compliment, others harassment. What about the student in the McAdams case? He said something that some would deem hateful. Should the university have punished him? What if the student didn't say "F*ck you" to Lovell but instead to some celebrity or politician on twitter? Should the university punish them?

And its not the student code of conduct that is fluff...its the first amendment. Marquette guarantees first amendment rights to its students and the courts have decided that only very limited kinds of speech can be regulated.

Actually you can tell your boss to go eff off. And there is nothing the US governement can do about it. Now your private business can do something about it, but legally you are fine.

Same thing with teachers, but with some wrinkles. There are different rules with minors. In college, you can tell your teacher to eff off but it depends on the context. If you do it during class then you can get in trouble because you are disrupting the academic environment of the classroom. Essentially, because your speech is keeping other students from learning it can be regulated. But if you are meeting with the teacher after class or in their office, you can tell them to eff off all you want.

Communication law is fascinating and a very tough subject. The reality is that in most cases, the court of public opinion is going to be able to regulate it a lot better than any legal court.

TAMU, if you are interested in some of this stuff, I cannot recommend the So to Speak podcast enough.

It's a really well done podcast done by FIRE (Foundation for Individual Rights in Education) and they cover lots of fantastic topics that are tough conversations to have and the importance of understanding free speech.

The funny thing is, I started listening to this as a guy I went to high school with is the one who hosts the show and I figured I'd check it out.  But I've been surprised with how much I've enjoyed it.

[muwarrior69]

Late to the thread, but I didn't see any discussion about something that jumped out at me.

First, I'll say I am white, and agree that white privilege is a "thing." That open dialogue is a great step toward leveling the playing field. That minorities shouldn't be told to "just assimilate and deal with it." That the concept of "being colorblind" might work on a micro level, but we aren't anywhere close on a macro level. And that it's everybody's responsibility to work toward change.

But the comment from the VP of Student Affairs about creating "more safe spaces?" How does setting up separate areas for people to segregate themselves help to solve the problem? Seems to me it would do the opposite. We need to work together to solve the problem, not further isolate ourselves into silos and hope that "the other side" fixes it.

That is what we are having here, an open discussion. I agree and Marquette having "safe spaces"  and a one-sided meeting is not going to bring folks together. In fact it will only further divide and alienate students who genuinely have a different voice and silence them for fear of being called racists.