White Privilege at MU

[GGGG]

Is it?

All white people are privileged?

To various degrees yes.

Do these incidents occur if the people were white?  Very doubtful.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/05/mom-on-college-tour-calls-police-on-two-native-american-teens-they-made-her-nervous.html

https://www.lipstickalley.com/threads/3-black-women-surrounded-by-cops-after-leaving-airbnb-home-because-they-didnt-wave-at-the-neighbor.1577470/

Now does that mean every incident has a racial aspect to it?  No. But pretending it doesn’t exist isn’t helpful.

[dgies9156]

Didn't know we are ALL hillbillies.

Hey, what did Buzz have to do with this?

[muwarrior69]

Can you walk into a store without being followed or watched?  Can you go to Starbucks for a business meeting without being asked to leave and have the police called? 

You can.  This is what White privilege means.  You have the privilege of walking around without suspicion, and generally speaking being White affords you privileges that others are not.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/gina-crosleycorcoran/explaining-white-privilege-to-a-broke-white-person_b_5269255.html

Like playing in the NBA.

If you want to believe there is white privilege fine, but that does not mean I have to believe it's an actual thing.

[muwarrior69]

I wonder how many attended that meeting and disagreed with the premise of white privilege.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Marquette is a private institution, not bound by the 1st amendment.    Google tells me so: "Private universities are not directly bound by the First Amendment, which limits only government action."

I'm happy to be schooled by a real lawyer, if any would like to chime in.

This is true. It wouldn't be a first amendment violation. But it would be a contract violation. Part of Marquette's contract with students is that they guarantee first amendment rights. Its somewhere in all the paperwork you sign. Most private schools do this.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Is it?

All white people are privileged?

All white people have white privilege.

That doesn't necessarily mean all white people are privileged.

Everyone has some form of privilege. Theoretically, there could be a person out there with only minority identities but that would be hard to find. A black man doesn't have white privilege, but he does have male privilege.  A black woman doesn't have white or male privilege but she could have straight privilege (assuming she's straight). A black lesbian doesn't have white, male or straight privilege, but she could have cisgender privilege (assuming she's not trans). A black trans lesbian doesn't have white, male, straight, or cisgender privilege, but could have Christian privilege (assuming she's Christian). A black trans lesbian athiest doesn't have white, male, straight, cisgender, or Christian privilege but could have ability privilege (assuming she isn't disabled)....and so on and so forth.

Privilege essentially means that you have an advantage over other people based on something that you had no control over. It's not a dirty word or something to be ashamed of. Everyone has varying levels of privilege and not all privileges are created equal. White privilege just happens to be one of the most visible and powerful.

[chapman]

While I agree with the 1st two sentences, I think your last one seems to say that you don't think white privilege occurs. What is your rationale? There is almost unlimited proof that it does exist.

If I am misunderstanding what you are saying, feel free to point that out.

I do believe it exists.  I just believe that identifying specific examples or incidents (such as those cited a few posts up) is a better way to deal with the issue than claiming an entire campus is full of oppressive white privilege and fighting invisible demons.  Removing the students who sent the disturbing image a couple weeks back is actionable.  That the "white racist gun-loving hillbillies" exist isn't particularly actionable unless they have actually done something wrong.     


Similarly, on the "worked twice as hard" to get into MU tweet - if any of that is MU's fault, as in they literally required her to have a higher GPA and SAT score than white students or she would not have been admitted, they should certainly take a hard look at their admission practices, at a minimum.  There is actually some pretty compelling evidence that on the whole, schools discriminate against Asians, requiring higher test scores to be admitted, but it's been deemed a legal practice.

[muwarrior69]

All white people have white privilege.

That doesn't necessarily mean all white people are privileged.

Everyone has some form of privilege. Theoretically, there could be a person out there with only minority identities but that would be hard to find. A black man doesn't have white privilege, but he does have male privilege.  A black woman doesn't have white or male privilege but she could have straight privilege (assuming she's straight). A black lesbian doesn't have white, male or straight privilege, but she could have cisgender privilege (assuming she's not trans). A black trans lesbian doesn't have white, male, straight, or cisgender privilege, but could have Christian privilege (assuming she's Christian). A black trans lesbian athiest doesn't have white, male, straight, cisgender, or Christian privilege but could have ability privilege (assuming she isn't disabled)....and so on and so forth.

Privilege essentially means that you have an advantage over other people based on something that you had no control over. It's not a dirty word or something to be ashamed of. Everyone has varying levels of privilege and not all privileges are created equal. White privilege just happens to be one of the most visible and powerful.

Then why have a meeting about a topic that a majority of students have no control over and characterized in such a way that to some is perceived that just by being white is something to be ashamed and is "dirty".

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Then why have a meeting about a topic that a majority of students have no control over and characterized in such a way that to some is perceived that just by being white is something to be ashamed and is "dirty".

Well to the first part, just because you have no control doesn't mean you shouldn't talk about. Those with privilege can use their privilege to support those without it. You know, like those pesky Jesuits preach.

To the second part, who is characterizing being white as something to be ashamed of or dirty? Having privilege isn't dirty and pointing out that someone has privilege isn't shaming. What your describing sounds more like personal discomfort.

[StillAWarrior]

Well to the first part, just because you have no control doesn't mean you shouldn't talk about. Those with privilege can use their privilege to support those without it. You know, like those pesky Jesuits preach.

To the second part, who is characterizing being white as something to be ashamed of or dirty? Having privilege isn't dirty and pointing out that someone has privilege isn't shaming. What your describing sounds more like personal discomfort.

TAMU, as I think you know, I have a lot of respect for you even though we disagree on some things.  But I think that your last comment is unfair.  Not focusing on this specific situation, there is an awful lot going on out there that absolutely treats people like white privilege is something to be ashamed of, and if you don't recognize and appreciate that, you're missing one reason why this is a hard conversation for us to have as a country.  To simply chalk it up to "personal discomfort" does not help the dialogue.  The use of hateful and racist terms like "hillbillies" so freely is a fairly good example that there are plenty who are trying to equate white privilege with something shameful.  You either know this to be true, or you have a pretty significant blind spot.

[jsglow]

All white people have white privilege.

That doesn't necessarily mean all white people are privileged.

Everyone has some form of privilege. Theoretically, there could be a person out there with only minority identities but that would be hard to find. A black man doesn't have white privilege, but he does have male privilege.  A black woman doesn't have white or male privilege but she could have straight privilege (assuming she's straight). A black lesbian doesn't have white, male or straight privilege, but she could have cisgender privilege (assuming she's not trans). A black trans lesbian doesn't have white, male, straight, or cisgender privilege, but could have Christian privilege (assuming she's Christian). A black trans lesbian athiest doesn't have white, male, straight, cisgender, or Christian privilege but could have ability privilege (assuming she isn't disabled)....and so on and so forth.

Privilege essentially means that you have an advantage over other people based on something that you had no control over. It's not a dirty word or something to be ashamed of. Everyone has varying levels of privilege and not all privileges are created equal. White privilege just happens to be one of the most visible and powerful.

[muwarrior69]

Well to the first part, just because you have no control doesn't mean you shouldn't talk about. Those with privilege can use their privilege to support those without it. You know, like those pesky Jesuits preach.

To the second part, who is characterizing being white as something to be ashamed of or dirty? Having privilege isn't dirty and pointing out that someone has privilege isn't shaming. What your describing sounds more like personal discomfort.

The Title of the meeting:

Do better Marquette. What does it mean to be part of a culture that perpetuates racism? Join us for a conversation about your role as part of the white community at Marquette.

So just by being white we perpetuate racism. Is not that something to be ashamed? If I flipped black for white in the above title it would be characterized as racist, would it not? Quite frankly I am not sure how that improves race relations when just by being white which is out of our control we perpetuate racism.

[mu_hilltopper]

This is true. It wouldn't be a first amendment violation. But it would be a contract violation. Part of Marquette's contract with students is that they guarantee first amendment rights. Its somewhere in all the paperwork you sign. Most private schools do this.

In that contract, you are also signing a student code of conduct, which, as I quoted above, curtails that freedom of speech, to wit:

"Physically or verbally abusing or threatening any person, on or off the campus, including especially such persons as student staff and Marquette University Police Department officers."

Or ..

"Participating in .. harassment, which includes actions or situations that do or could result in mental, emotional or physical discomfort, embarrassment, ridicule or endangerment whether intentionally, for fun or by consent."

In short .. students do have the freedom to express their minds and beliefs, up to the point of being verbally abusive or harassing, at which they are in violation of the code of conduct and can be disciplined in the manner the code lays out, which includes expulsion.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU, as I think you know, I have a lot of respect for you even though we disagree on some things.  But I think that your last comment is unfair.  Not focusing on this specific situation, there is an awful lot going on out there that absolutely treats people like white privilege is something to be ashamed of, and if you don't recognize and appreciate that, you're missing one reason why this is a hard conversation for us to have as a country.  To simply chalk it up to "personal discomfort" does not help the dialogue.  The use of hateful and racist terms like "hillbillies" so freely is a fairly good example that there are plenty who are trying to equate white privilege with something shameful.  You either know this to be true, or you have a pretty significant blind spot.

I don't think I phrased it very well. What I was getting at is that a lot of people make assumptions about events like the one happening at Marquette. They assume that all that will happen at the event is blaming and shaming and making white people feel guilty for being white. While I am sure events like that do happen, my experience is that most or seeking an open dialogue on how to acknowledge and use white privilege to great a more equal and just society. Don't judge a book by its cover I guess is what I'm getting at.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Great speech.

Make sure you read the whole thing and not just the pretty quote that everyone knows:

https://www.archives.gov/files/press/exhibits/dream-speech.pdf

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

In that contract, you are also signing a student code of conduct, which, as I quoted above, curtails that freedom of speech, to wit:

"Physically or verbally abusing or threatening any person, on or off the campus, including especially such persons as student staff and Marquette University Police Department officers."

Or ..

"Participating in .. harassment, which includes actions or situations that do or could result in mental, emotional or physical discomfort, embarrassment, ridicule or endangerment whether intentionally, for fun or by consent."

In short .. students do have the freedom to express their minds and beliefs, up to the point of being verbally abusive or harassing, at which they are in violation of the code of conduct and can be disciplined in the manner the code lays out, which includes expulsion.

I am telling you hilltopper. I work in student conduct and compliance. If Marquette punishes a student for saying "f*ck you" to anybody, they will be sued for breach and contract and lose. "F*ck you" is not a threat, nor is it persistent or pervasive enough to constitute abuse or harassment. Like Glow said, the best punishment in this situation is the light of day.

[buckchuckler]

nm

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The Title of the meeting:

Do better Marquette. What does it mean to be part of a culture that perpetuates racism? Join us for a conversation about your role as part of the white community at Marquette.

So just by being white we perpetuate racism. Is not that something to be ashamed? If I flipped black for white in the above title it would be characterized as racist, would it not? Quite frankly I am not sure how that improves race relations when just by being white which is out of our control we perpetuate racism.

This isn't what the sign is saying. There is a difference between being white and white culture. Being white doesn't perpetuate racism but participating in white culture does.

You essentially have two choices on what to do with white privilege. You can ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist, which perpetuates racism. Or you can acknowledge it and try to use it to help your fellow man which fights racism. I would imagine that is this what this event is meant to be about. Though I could be wrong. Students sometimes do dumb things despite good intentions.

I think a big barrier here is the use of the "R word." Some people are so uncomfortable with being associated with racism that it immediately shuts down any conversation. Everyone does racist things every day. I do. You do. Trump does. Obama does. Christians do. Athiests do. Everyone does. Everyone commits racist actions and has racist thoughts, but it doesn't make them racists, it just makes them human. I have only met 3 or 4 genuine bonafide racists in my entire life. But I have met thousands of humans who sometimes do or say racist things.

[mu_hilltopper]

I am telling you hilltopper. I work in student conduct and compliance. If Marquette punishes a student for saying "f*ck you" to anybody, they will be sued for breach and contract and lose. "F*ck you" is not a threat, nor is it persistent or pervasive enough to constitute abuse or harassment. Like Glow said, the best punishment in this situation is the light of day.

So you as long as you don't "persistently or pervasively" harass or abuse someone, no problem?   That's quite a loophole -- one that's not mentioned in the quoted text, I should add. 

You should have said you work in student conduct up front, as I respect the expertise.  That being said, it's a shame you (and departments) don't think and wouldn't prosecute this as a code of conduct violation.   If you can say "go f*ck yourself" to the University President, in public no less, and not be disciplined for that, that code of conduct is just a bunch of fluff.

[MUBurrow]

Great speech.

Make sure you read the whole thing and not just the pretty quote that everyone knows:

https://www.archives.gov/files/press/exhibits/dream-speech.pdf

This. Even the pretty quote is "live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin" - not "live in a nation that declines to acknowledge the color of their skin." I think we had another related conversation of this in another (probably rightfully locked) thread, but while I have a lot of sympathy/empathy for everyone that was raised to be "colorblind" that doesn't mean it works.  Aiming to be colorblind is a skin deep (pun intended) solution to a much deeper problem. It turns "racism" into something that we all try to prove we aren't, but blinds us to the institutional disadvantages of the system that we reinforce everyday... while simultaneously and dissonantly trying to prove we aren't interpersonally racist. 

[StillAWarrior]

I think a big barrier here is the use of the "R word." Some people are so uncomfortable with being associated with racism that it immediately shuts down any conversation. Everyone does racist things every day. I do. You do. Trump does. Obama does. Christians do. Athiests do. Everyone does. Everyone commits racist actions and has racist thoughts, but it doesn't make them racists, it just makes them human. I have only met 3 or 4 genuine bonafide racists in my entire life. But I have met thousands of humans who sometimes do or say racist things.

I agree with this quite a lot.  I think if more people would use the word as a adjective instead of a noun, it would go a long way toward promoting meaningful discourse.

[Mr. Nielsen]

Sorry to tell you, but if you punished a student for this that would result in the world's easiest lawsuit. That is free speech. Its douchey free speech but free speech none the less.

Every example is different. Pretty sure you can't tell your boss or teacher to F off.

[muwarrior69]

This isn't what the sign is saying. There is a difference between being white and white culture. Being white doesn't perpetuate racism but participating in white culture does.

You essentially have two choices on what to do with white privilege. You can ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist, which perpetuates racism. Or you can acknowledge it and try to use it to help your fellow man which fights racism. I would imagine that is this what this event is meant to be about. Though I could be wrong. Students sometimes do dumb things despite good intentions.

I think a big barrier here is the use of the "R word." Some people are so uncomfortable with being associated with racism that it immediately shuts down any conversation. Everyone does racist things every day. I do. You do. Trump does. Obama does. Christians do. Athiests do. Everyone does. Everyone commits racist actions and has racist thoughts, but it doesn't make them racists, it just makes them human. I have only met 3 or 4 genuine bonafide racists in my entire life. But I have met thousands of humans who sometimes do or say racist things.

Does black culture perpetuate racism? Why is that question never asked? Quite frankly if we stop putting people into "buckets" and see them as individuals it would redress a lot of concerns we all have as a country.

I am a practicing Catholic and attend Mass every Sunday. At my last parish our choir director of 20 years was black and a gay man who lived with his partner. He was very active in our parish life. In fact many parents trusted their children to be alone in his care (we had a large children's choir) during choir practice more than some of the priests at catechism. He was a wonderful human being and christian. Three thousand attended his memorial service as he was greatly loved by all. We did not see black or gay. We saw a christian who lived his life as we all should: loving others as he wanted to be loved and we all did. I still mss him and I am sure he is in heaven.

[#UnleashSean]

Every example is different. Pretty sure you can't tell your boss or teacher to F off.

You can definitely tell a professor to unnatural carnal knowledge off. I have. A boss on the other hand...

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

So you as long as you don't "persistently or pervasively" harass or abuse someone, no problem?   That's quite a loophole -- one that's not mentioned in the quoted text, I should add. 

You should have said you work in student conduct up front, as I respect the expertise.  That being said, it's a shame you (and departments) don't think and wouldn't prosecute this as a code of conduct violation.   If you can say "go f*ck yourself" to the University President, in public no less, and not be disciplined for that, that code of conduct is just a bunch of fluff.

Speech is a tough question. Where do you draw the line? If someone tells a student "hey, nice a$$" should the school punish them for that? Some would call that a compliment, others harassment. What about the student in the McAdams case? He said something that some would deem hateful. Should the university have punished him? What if the student didn't say "F*ck you" to Lovell but instead to some celebrity or politician on twitter? Should the university punish them?

And its not the student code of conduct that is fluff...its the first amendment. Marquette guarantees first amendment rights to its students and the courts have decided that only very limited kinds of speech can be regulated.

Every example is different. Pretty sure you can't tell your boss or teacher to F off.

Actually you can tell your boss to go eff off. And there is nothing the US governement can do about it. Now your private business can do something about it, but legally you are fine.

Same thing with teachers, but with some wrinkles. There are different rules with minors. In college, you can tell your teacher to eff off but it depends on the context. If you do it during class then you can get in trouble because you are disrupting the academic environment of the classroom. Essentially, because your speech is keeping other students from learning it can be regulated. But if you are meeting with the teacher after class or in their office, you can tell them to eff off all you want.

Communication law is fascinating and a very tough subject. The reality is that in most cases, the court of public opinion is going to be able to regulate it a lot better than any legal court.