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Author Topic: Wojo, 4 years in  (Read 9142 times)

Mr. Sand-Knit

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2018, 01:09:53 PM »
Without a good grad transfer at the point next year absolutely none if this matters one iota
Political free board, plz leave your clever quips in your clever mind.

Its DJOver

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2018, 01:30:22 PM »
Without a good grad transfer at the point next year absolutely none if this matters one iota
Yep, because if we don't get a grad transfer we're gonna forfeit every game next year.

We won't be as good without a grad transfer, but I would also like to see Wojo continue to develop talent, not letting a mid major coach do it, and then have Wojo use the kid for one year.

bilsu

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2018, 01:43:42 PM »
Wojo realized his errors in recruiting 18 months ago.  What did he do? He went out and got Elliott, Cain, Theo and to a lesser extent, Eke.  All long athletic guys that will help on D.  Now, they weren’t ‘highly” related guys, so might take a year to two to develop.  But you could see the flashes on defense from these two guys plus Theo.

Without AR at the point, D will improve immensely this upcoming year and Wojo will be able to work in more wrinkles as guys get more experience.  May be a bit less exciting offensively, but the D will be funnerer.
I am not sure I agree with this. I am happy with these players, but he signed 3 star players, because he could not get 4 star players.

tower912

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2018, 02:53:28 PM »
Sorry, saying Wojo is an offensive genius don't make it so. That is hogwash, and that is so.
Top 15 offensively the last two years.   
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

skianth16

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2018, 03:03:36 PM »
I think you may have mis-interpreted what I am saying.  Of course the bodies do mature differently - but that is the same as when we brought in Vander, Jamil, Lazar, Dom and others.  That has always been a factor.  So things that could have changed are - our guards are on average younger, wojo is bringing in smaller players, wojo is stressing different things than adding bulk, etc.

What we do know is our strength and condition coach has a track record of building big east ready guards.

All the guys you named, all the pre-Wojo guys, were big when they came in. Theo was big when he came in too. Of course they all get bigger when they get to MU, but I doubt there's been a significant change in the way our guys are being trained. We just have some skinny guys right now; simple as that.

And as much as I think another 20 or so pounds on each Greg and Jamal would be great, I'm not sure we'll see that any time soon. They both seem like they're built skinny. Comparing their bodies to guys like Wes or Jamil is just night and day. Workouts will help, but genetics ultimately decides an awful lot about how a guy is built.
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Floorslapper

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2018, 04:27:45 PM »
Top 15 offensively the last two years.

I see a lot of great individual talent, in Rowsey and Howard to be able to create/manufacture, and wiggle their way into 3 point shots.  Personally, I don't see great scheme that got either of those guys great looks with any frequency.

Take the Creighton game at home.  Rowsey singlehandedly won that game by nailing 3, 3's from 27+ feet out.  That aint coaching or "offensive genius."

Now, you could say the skill development aspect of coaching has been good - Brett Nelson rebuilt JJJ's shot.  Sacar seems to be improving.  Hauser, Rowsey and Howard all came in the door damn good shooters.

There was some good coaching sets that put Hauser into pick and pop situations that freed Hauser for some good looks.

Its DJOver

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #31 on: March 21, 2018, 04:33:50 PM »
I see a lot of great individual talent, in Rowsey and Howard to be able to create/manufacture, and wiggle their way into 3 point shots.  Personally, I don't see great scheme that got either of those guys great looks with any frequency.

Take the Creighton game at home.  Rowsey singlehandedly won that game by nailing 3, 3's from 27+ feet out.  That aint coaching or "offensive genius."

Now, you could say the skill development aspect of coaching has been good - Brett Nelson rebuilt JJJ's shot.  Sacar seems to be improving.  Hauser, Rowsey and Howard all came in the door damn good shooters.

There was some good coaching sets that put Hauser into pick and pop situations that freed Hauser for some good looks.
I can't speak for others, but I really like the play where either AR or MH runs off the double screen for a 3. Then the variation of that play where after he sets the second pick, Sam runs off the first one in the opposite direction, or the inbounds play with AR and whoever is center with the lob then handoff for a three, or the play for Sacar that I believe was first run for JJJ to win the LSU game, where he curls around the screen for either the drive or the free throw line jumper, or the lob alley oop play originally run for JJJ but also with Greg from under the basket.   It was really clever for the players to come up with those themselves.  Imagine what they could do if properly motivated.

TAMU Eagle

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2018, 05:23:54 PM »
I see a lot of great individual talent, in Rowsey and Howard to be able to create/manufacture, and wiggle their way into 3 point shots.  Personally, I don't see great scheme that got either of those guys great looks with any frequency.

Take the Creighton game at home.  Rowsey singlehandedly won that game by nailing 3, 3's from 27+ feet out.  That aint coaching or "offensive genius."

Now, you could say the skill development aspect of coaching has been good - Brett Nelson rebuilt JJJ's shot.  Sacar seems to be improving.  Hauser, Rowsey and Howard all came in the door damn good shooters.

There was some good coaching sets that put Hauser into pick and pop situations that freed Hauser for some good looks.

So our great offense is all players

But our terrible defense is all coaching

Personally,  I think it is both,  but would place more credit/blame with the players for both our strengths and our flaws.

Watching the NCAAs, it reminds me how good our offense is.  So many other teams rely on single screens or isolation and end up jacking contested mid range shots more often than not. Wojos scheme got us a ton of open threes and shots at the rim.

Of course it also makes me appreciate how bad our defense is...
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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willie warrior

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2018, 05:33:19 PM »
Top 15 offensively the last two years.
How about since he has been there? Still top 15? And how about the bottom tier of the conference? How has that offensive genius paid off with that performance? Offensive genius? Hogwash. I compare that to Buzz Williams stating that Derrick Wilson was the greatest defensive player he ever coached. You Wojo Koll Aiders will grasp anything to prop up Wojo. Not competing for Beast championships after 4 years, and bottom tier conference standings suggests quite a bit more about Wojo's offensive genius. Not winning games matters.

Goose

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2018, 05:35:19 PM »
TAMU

MU just have the greatest duo of three point shooters in school history. Both took many suspect shots, and I was fine with that, but I think most credit goes to guys that can flat out shoot. Couple that with Hauser and it create a lot of opportunities. I truly doubt that we will see anything similar next season.

I do have to admit, I said after last season we could not shoot more threes this year over last year and possibly was wrong. Numbers were likely close. I think next season will see a great deal less of 30 foot bombs and real need for a more structured offensive scheme.

brewcity77

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2018, 05:54:30 PM »
Anyone that doesn't think Wojo is an offensive genius is a freaking moron. I'm sorry, but he took a terrible offensive team and turned it into a top-10 offense last year, then lost JJ, Fischer, and Reinhardt and maintained it despite a virtual non-factor at the 5 and five new players that had a combined 19 points scored for Marquette (Anim's freshman year total).

Defensively, we were a sieve each of the past two years and I have serious concerns about that improving, but offensively he is a wizard. We had two of the three most prolific scoring seasons in school history, sandwiched around a guy named Wade. I understand the differences between the 1970s players and today in terms of the three-point line and number of games played, but those are still incredibly impressive numbers.

Despite all that, if we are a bubble team again next year, even if we are in the tournament, I think it may be time to part ways with Wojo. I'm not sold on him yet as a long-term answer and I don't think simply taking Rowsey out and adding Morrow and Joey will magically turn our sub-175 defense into a top-75 defense. But in terms of offense? Yeah, the guy has a golden touch and I have no doubt we'll lose the most prolific single-season scorer in Marquette history and still have a top-20 offense next year.

Floorslapper

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2018, 06:08:53 PM »
Anyone that doesn't think Wojo is an offensive genius is a freaking moron. I'm sorry, but he took a terrible offensive team and turned it into a top-10 offense last year, then lost JJ, Fischer, and Reinhardt and maintained it despite a virtual non-factor at the 5 and five new players that had a combined 19 points scored for Marquette (Anim's freshman year total).

Defensively, we were a sieve each of the past two years and I have serious concerns about that improving, but offensively he is a wizard. We had two of the three most prolific scoring seasons in school history, sandwiched around a guy named Wade. I understand the differences between the 1970s players and today in terms of the three-point line and number of games played, but those are still incredibly impressive numbers.

Despite all that, if we are a bubble team again next year, even if we are in the tournament, I think it may be time to part ways with Wojo. I'm not sold on him yet as a long-term answer and I don't think simply taking Rowsey out and adding Morrow and Joey will magically turn our sub-175 defense into a top-75 defense. But in terms of offense? Yeah, the guy has a golden touch and I have no doubt we'll lose the most prolific single-season scorer in Marquette history and still have a top-20 offense next year.

I'm one of the "freaking morons" who doesn't think Wojo is an "offensive genius." 

Out of curiosity, where was the "offensive genius" in Year 1 and 2?  154 and 116.  Genius material?

So, if we aren't a Top 20 offense next year can we agree Wojo isn't an offensive genius, and you are a "freaking moron?" 




Goose

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2018, 06:15:20 PM »
Bill Walsh of the 49ers was an offensive genius. Come on, I hope this discussion is just to punk people to agree with the ridiculous idea Wojo is offensive genius.

brewcity77

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2018, 06:27:05 PM »
I'm one of the "freaking morons" who doesn't think Wojo is an "offensive genius." 

Out of curiosity, where was the "offensive genius" in Year 1 and 2?  154 and 116.  Genius material?

So, if we aren't a Top 20 offense next year can we agree Wojo isn't an offensive genius, and you are a "freaking moron?"

He has an obvious knack for understanding offense. You think we were 8th and 13th by accident? Or he just got lucky, stumbled in a North Carolina hole, and came out with Andrew Rowsey? Please.

As far as his first year, Matt Carlino, Derrick Wilson, and Juan Anderson all had career years offensively. His second year we saw obvious improvement from guys that would become foundational pieces for that 8th ranked offense in JJ and Luke. And it all paid off the last two years. These are the two most efficient offenses since Dwyane Wade took us to the Final Four. With massive roster turnover in the interim. Crean never had an offense again at Marquette as efficient as Wojo has had the past two years. Buzz never had an offense as efficient as Wojo's past two years.

Last year, Wojo had the most efficient offensive team at Marquette in the advanced stats era. This year, he lost 3 of his top 5 (and 4 of his top 7) scorers and had the third most efficient offensive team at Marquette in the advanced stats era. That isn't by accident.

Criticize his defense all you want. I would do the same. But offensively, the guy is killing it. In the past two years, there have been 6 other teams to be ranked in the top-15 offensively both years. The other programs are Villanova, Duke, Kansas, Arizona, Wichita State, and St. Mary's. That's impressive company.

Floorslapper

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2018, 06:46:30 PM »
He has an obvious knack for understanding offense. You think we were 8th and 13th by accident? Or he just got lucky, stumbled in a North Carolina hole, and came out with Andrew Rowsey? Please.

As far as his first year, Matt Carlino, Derrick Wilson, and Juan Anderson all had career years offensively. His second year we saw obvious improvement from guys that would become foundational pieces for that 8th ranked offense in JJ and Luke. And it all paid off the last two years. These are the two most efficient offenses since Dwyane Wade took us to the Final Four. With massive roster turnover in the interim. Crean never had an offense again at Marquette as efficient as Wojo has had the past two years. Buzz never had an offense as efficient as Wojo's past two years.

Last year, Wojo had the most efficient offensive team at Marquette in the advanced stats era. This year, he lost 3 of his top 5 (and 4 of his top 7) scorers and had the third most efficient offensive team at Marquette in the advanced stats era. That isn't by accident.

Criticize his defense all you want. I would do the same. But offensively, the guy is killing it. In the past two years, there have been 6 other teams to be ranked in the top-15 offensively both years. The other programs are Villanova, Duke, Kansas, Arizona, Wichita State, and St. Mary's. That's impressive company.

I agree, that is impressive company.  Unfortunately out of all of those teams we are the only to not win an NCAA tournament game. 

Guess we will see next year.  I simply feel Rowsey was the straw that stirred the drink this year.  Think both Markus and Sam's job becomes a lot more difficult next year with Andrew gone. 

Friendly wager on this Top 20 Offensive Rating for next year?  You're right, I'll change my signature to:  Wojo is an offensive genius, and I am a freaking moron.  You are wrong, your signature becomes:  Wojo isn't an offensive genius and I'm a freaking moron.   ;D
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 06:51:05 PM by Floorslapper »

brewcity77

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2018, 07:49:34 PM »
I agree, that is impressive company.  Unfortunately out of all of those teams we are the only to not win an NCAA tournament game. 

Guess we will see next year.  I simply feel Rowsey was the straw that stirred the drink this year.  Think both Markus and Sam's job becomes a lot more difficult next year with Andrew gone. 

Friendly wager on this Top 20 Offensive Rating for next year?  You're right, I'll change my signature to:  Wojo is an offensive genius, and I am a freaking moron.  You are wrong, your signature becomes:  Wojo isn't an offensive genius and I'm a freaking moron.   ;D

I'm good with that. And as I've said elsewhere, this really just underscores how bad the defense has been. When you consider this defense, that we've been a NCAA and NIT team in connective years and won 40 games the past two years is remarkable. All because the offense is national championship calibur good.

WarriorDad

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2018, 09:22:24 PM »
Who here would be willing to wager $100 on MU finishing next season rated 29th overall or better in final Pomeroy?

Here are some of the teams that finished this year 29th or better

Seton Hall
St.  Mary's
Penn  State
Butler
TCU

Do I think next year we can have a team at that level?  Yes, I do.  Creighton finished at 31, a team we beat twice this year.

I expect us to be in the 20's next season unless we are dealt with a major injury or transfer that changes the impact greatly of the program.
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hdog1017

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2018, 11:26:04 AM »
Wojo has been substandard since taking over. 

Goose

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2018, 11:28:27 AM »
Question on the "offensive genius" comment, has any other team copied Wojo's to scheme yet? I have never see a genius not be copied before, and copied quickly.

Its DJOver

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2018, 11:33:53 AM »
Question on the "offensive genius" comment, has any other team copied Wojo's to scheme yet? I have never see a genius not be copied before, and copied quickly.
Basketball at every level is becoming more focused on three point shooting.  Wojo, along with many other coaches have jumped on that train.  I think the word genius was probably a poor choice, but he is an excellent offensive coach.

#UnleashCain

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2018, 11:38:29 AM »
Question on the "offensive genius" comment, has any other team copied Wojo's to scheme yet? I have never see a genius not be copied before, and copied quickly.

Not many teams have had 3 of the best three point shooters in the NCAA.

skianth16

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2018, 11:38:50 AM »
Basketball at every level is becoming more focused on three point shooting.  Wojo, along with many other coaches have jumped on that train.  I think the word genius was probably a poor choice, but he is an excellent offensive coach.

It's interesting that he seems open to following the analytical approach that the NBA has embraced, which has steered him and other coaches to a focus on three point shooting, but he he seems to be more stubborn on the defensive side. I wonder if there are defensive trends that have risen in popularity based on data. Maybe defense is simpler and is harder to get analytical insights out of, but maybe there could be something there.

Don't our guys wear some kind of tracker to allow the team to use data to analyze performance trends? Does anyone know more about that and how it's used at MU?
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Its DJOver

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2018, 11:44:17 AM »
It's interesting that he seems open to following the analytical approach that the NBA has embraced, which has steered him and other coaches to a focus on three point shooting, but he he seems to be more stubborn on the defensive side. I wonder if there are defensive trends that have risen in popularity based on data. Maybe defense is simpler and is harder to get analytical insights out of, but maybe there could be something there.

Don't our guys wear some kind of tracker to allow the team to use data to analyze performance trends? Does anyone know more about that and how it's used at MU?
I think the fact that we switched almost every screen this year means that Wojo was willing to trade 2s for 3s. Matt will be beat by a Brunson or a Ponds 100 times out of 100.  But if he only gives up a lay-up that's not as bad as giving up a three.  I don't necessarily agree with this, but it seems to be the mentality that he had.  It is also easier to get open 3s against a zone, and you can just ask ners how many possessions of zone we played all year, which tells me that giving up lay-ups is preferred over open 3s.  Makes sense in theory, not so much in execution.   

mu_hilltopper

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2018, 07:31:17 PM »
The "offensive genius" thing reminds me of that scene in Bull Durham, where Crash Davis asks, "You know what the difference between hitting .250 and .300 is?  .. you get just one extra flair a week, one gork, a ground ball with eyes, you get an extra dying quail each week and you're in Yankee Stadium."

Rowsey, Howard and Hauser are not one but three dying of Wojo's dying quail's a week.  Their long-range ability brings a bright shine to MU's offense.  You put those 3 guys on any team, you're gonna win a decent amount of games.  Conversely, if those guys shot like average humans on MU's team .. we'd struggle to win 4 games in the Big East.   

Offensive or Defensive geniuses .. tend to make their team more than the sum of their parts.  I haven't seen much of that in the last 4 years.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 07:33:24 PM by mu_hilltopper »

ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2018, 12:56:27 PM »
Had a thought today. If everybody is so pissed off at Wojo after a admittedly mediocre 4 seasons, what would scoop have been like during the Bob Dukiet years? As much as we have some crazy posters, I'd say we're pretty patient in comparison to other Power Conference schools.