MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: tower912 on March 09, 2018, 10:13:59 AM
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What I like about Wojo:
Recruits well
Runs a clean program (as far as we know)
Represents Marquette well
Offensive genius
Willing to try things defensively. Zone, 3/4 trap, trapping in the zone
What I don't like about Wojo:
Doesn't recruit multidimensional, multiple positional players. i.e. Switchables. Cain and Elliott are steps in the right direction.
I don't like how he uses his big man on high pick and rolls. Don't have him defending guards in space. Get his butt back to the lane and make your guards defend.
Hasn't had a complete roster in 4 years. Lack of players = lack of options. Can't bench players who aren't putting forth effort is there is no one to replace them with.
Not an alchemist/magician. Has not made his teams more than the sum of their products. Though he came closer to that this year.
I have said many times I think the key to Wojo's success is his ability to grow beyond his Duke roots. To build on and adapt it to Marquette. He has yet to instill the fire that he played with to his players. I see flashes, but not consistency. But I still see the roadmap. I can still see the foundation he is laying. He is still a young man and can still learn and grow. I am still on board, but not 100% sold.
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I agree with Tower for the most part. The lack of a complete roster is on Wojo IMO. What is maddening for me is the lack of consistency and what seems to me a lack of toughness. Say what you want about Buzz but his teams were tough. It surprises me that Wojo's teams aren't grittier, I like Wojo and really hope he has a ton of success at MU, for me, if I don't see marked improvement I think MU needs to start thinking about alternatives. Marked improvement for me is solidly in the NCAA tourney and a top 4 B-East finish?? Marked improvement is a little like porn, can't define it that well but I will know it when I see it.
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Even though its frustrating to see the team falter when it could soar, Id keep Wojo for as long as we can. I like that dude.
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Things to Work on for 18-19, many may be obvious:
- Limit hero ball : Need 5 contributors, not 2
- Work the ball into the post. Granted we don't have much offensive talent in the middle [yet], but it helps sag the defense and open up the outside. Teams brought their guards/forwards to the perimeter that forced many 27 footers
- Develop slashing ability for Greg and Jamal similar to the growth that Sacar had.
- Theo : footwork on offense, defense : Stay planted until confident a shot is going up
- Defense, Defense, Defense. Avoid mismatches in high ball screen. Being aggressive without fouling.
- Recruiting : Point guard with size. WVU always has PG's that look like they are 36, and maybe they are. Always tough nose defenders.
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Great summary. I never really thought about the lack of "switchables." Woo definitely recruits for roles. The downside to that philosophy is that a transfer, injury, or "dud," leaves a notably unbalanced roster.
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Well said Tower.
A balance needs to be found regarding switchables. For example, Buzz would mainly recruit these guys while Wojo is the opposite. Buzz's teams lacked consistent knockdown shooters. For this offense to work, we absolutely need outside shooting, so finding a balance is key. I agree, Jamal and Greg are a step in the right direction. Jamal has the ability to be a switchable and solid shooter from what we saw this year.
The defensive hedging of our bigs drives me insane. Unless the big is an outside shooter, there is no reason for our immobile bigs to be out corralling ball handlers. On the PnR, its more effective to just sit on the free throw line in my opinion. This is similar to what the Bucks did with their blitzing defense that only worked for 1 year. Hopefully we can improve this next year.
As some have noted frequently, next year is big. A tourney birth is a must for me, and I see us getting in easily assuming we progress as the guys did this year. Tower, you put it well - I'm on board but not 100% sold.
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I am most definitely in the not 100% sold camp as well, although I think my list of cons may be longer than yours. A few things that worry me about Wojo so far have been:
- Sub-par defense - yes, there are personnel issues, but this is 100% his roster now. This is avoidable.
- Transfers - I know it's common in college hoops, but we've lost guys every year, (potentially) key pieces and even lost a few guys mid-year. That seems less common and more problematic than what most schools experience.
- Recruiting - His strong suit! I worry about his ability to continue to land top talent without the insider leverage we've had for Henry, Joey, and Markus. We won't always be able to land an older brother of a top 50 guy, and our assistant coaches won't be family friends with recruits often enough to rely on them consistently
- Rigidity - Wojo has been more flexible this year with defenses and lineups, but he still loves what's comfortable, even if it's not working well or has been shown in the past that it's not the best. He's getting better here, but I still think he's a bit too stubborn to maximize the talent on a given roster
- The Ultimate Green Light - it's fun to watch guys shoot the lights out, but I think the green light from the Al kind of mentality can lead to hero ball and can encourage iffy shot selection. I'd like to see this reigned in a little more in future years
On the other hand, he's obviously done plenty of good things, and it does seem clear that the direction we're headed in is a good one, even if the speed has felt a bit slow at times. Pros for Wojo take less explanation and are easily agreed upon - great offensive mind, recruiting quality kids (on the court and off), running the right kind of program, not falling short of expectations set for him. These things are crucial to building a program that is uniquely his, not Buzz's, not Crean's, and not Al's. That will all pay off in the long run. Hopefully not too long, though.
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i get that it's fun to list what we think wojo does right and wrong...but i think it's really hard to understand what it takes to be successful at that level. in the end...wins and losses....and i'd like to see a little more winning. imho, mu should be an annual NCAA team and occasional second round team. if that's not happening...we should be looking for a new coach. no ncaa next year...send him packing.
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Even though its frustrating to see the team falter when it could soar, Id keep Wojo for as long as we can. I like that dude.
Would you put the shortcomings more on the players then? Or do you think Wojo has had missteps but is improving?
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Buzz Williams last year avg 71
Wojo Year 1 avg rating 112
Wojo Year 2 avg rating 98
Wojo Year 3 avg rating 37
Wojo Year 4 avg rating 52
I expect next year in the teens, 20's at worse. We lost a lot of experience and talent from last year, played a tougher schedule this season. Expected we would take a slight backward move, but future is bright and starts next season.
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What I like about Wojo:
Recruits well
Runs a clean program (as far as we know)
Represents Marquette well
Offensive genius
Willing to try things defensively. Zone, 3/4 trap, trapping in the zone
What I don't like about Wojo:
Doesn't recruit multidimensional, multiple positional players. i.e. Switchables. Cain and Elliott are steps in the right direction.
I don't like how he uses his big man on high pick and rolls. Don't have him defending guards in space. Get his butt back to the lane and make your guards defend.
Hasn't had a complete roster in 4 years. Lack of players = lack of options. Can't bench players who aren't putting forth effort is there is no one to replace them with.
Not an alchemist/magician. Has not made his teams more than the sum of their products. Though he came closer to that this year.
I have said many times I think the key to Wojo's success is his ability to grow beyond his Duke roots. To build on and adapt it to Marquette. He has yet to instill the fire that he played with to his players. I see flashes, but not consistency. But I still see the roadmap. I can still see the foundation he is laying. He is still a young man and can still learn and grow. I am still on board, but not 100% sold.
I mentioned about two years into the Wojo era, that he failed to identify our DNA and recruit tough (and they often seem to come as switchable types). He finally has done that with the Detroit area players, so we'll really like next year, I'm thinking; it builds on all the shooting, finesse (Duke-like?) that we already have.
I thought Traci Carter could have filled this role for at least one player but wasn't meant to be...
goinUptown
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What I like about Wojo:
Recruits well
Runs a clean program (as far as we know)
Represents Marquette well
Offensive genius
Willing to try things defensively. Zone, 3/4 trap, trapping in the zone
What I don't like about Wojo:
Doesn't recruit multidimensional, multiple positional players. i.e. Switchables. Cain and Elliott are steps in the right direction.
I don't like how he uses his big man on high pick and rolls. Don't have him defending guards in space. Get his butt back to the lane and make your guards defend.
Hasn't had a complete roster in 4 years. Lack of players = lack of options. Can't bench players who aren't putting forth effort is there is no one to replace them with.
Not an alchemist/magician. Has not made his teams more than the sum of their products. Though he came closer to that this year.
I have said many times I think the key to Wojo's success is his ability to grow beyond his Duke roots. To build on and adapt it to Marquette. He has yet to instill the fire that he played with to his players. I see flashes, but not consistency. But I still see the roadmap. I can still see the foundation he is laying. He is still a young man and can still learn and grow. I am still on board, but not 100% sold.
I think this is pretty balanced. I think am a bit more down on Wojo than you, but that is simply weighting the above differently.
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Over the last 6 weeks, I have started to perceive Wojo's recruiting differently. Clearly, he has gotten some good players. But the Big East is a big guards league. A muscular 6'5-6'6 guard league. Wojo hasn't recruited that player. Next year, as the roster is currently assembled (still rooting for the grad transfer PG with size), MU's best hope is to have some of our guys assumed to be forwards to improve their ball handling and play the two. Cain. Sam. Bailey. I still think MU is going to be better next year, especially on defense, since Wojo won't have two guards guarding guys 7 inches and 40 lbs heavier who move equally well. But the players are going to have to hit the weight room.
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Wojo realized his errors in recruiting 18 months ago. What did he do? He went out and got Elliott, Cain, Theo and to a lesser extent, Eke. All long athletic guys that will help on D. Now, they weren’t ‘highly” related guys, so might take a year to two to develop. But you could see the flashes on defense from these two guys plus Theo.
Without AR at the point, D will improve immensely this upcoming year and Wojo will be able to work in more wrinkles as guys get more experience. May be a bit less exciting offensively, but the D will be funnerer.
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I see that. They just weren't muscular enough this year. Weight room.
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I am securely in the "Be patient with Wojo" camp. I understand the griping from many regarding "softness" and lack of defense, however I counter with the quality of kids that he is bringing in from a talent and behavioral standpoint......as well as the fact that Wojo is still very early in his Head Coaching career.
I also would like to remind those in the "Fire Wojo" camp how painful it is to blowup programs and the difficulty it is to rebuild (We have been and are going through this!). The Crean/Williams transition was an aberration considering the upperclassman that Buzz inherited.....of which he was immediately able to leverage in recruiting. He also hit paydirt with the JuCo kids that he used to supplement the loss of MU committed players (and/or underclassman).
I close my argument by pointing to Jay Wright and the Villanova program. After 6 years as the Hofstra Head Coach, Jay Wright took the Villanova HC position in 2001. He did not have immediate success (similar to Wojo) and lead the Nova team to NIT post season play in their first 3 seasons (2001-2004). The program took a big leap in '05 and sustained through '08 with NCAA results of Elite8, 1st Round, Sweet 16, and Final Four. However, from 2009 through 2015 a series of early exits and one non NCAA appearance had many speculating about his future with Villanova. The administration ignored the chatter and stuck with him and were rewarded with the NCAA title in 2016......and look like they might be on their way again here in 2018.
I am going to stay patient on this one and stick with Wojo and Co. for at least 2 more years. I would hate to blowup the program before the likes of Hauser/Howard/Sacar/John/Cain/Elliot are upperclassman.
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Buzz Williams last year avg 71
Wojo Year 1 avg rating 112
Wojo Year 2 avg rating 98
Wojo Year 3 avg rating 37
Wojo Year 4 avg rating 52
I expect next year in the teens, 20's at worse. We lost a lot of experience and talent from last year, played a tougher schedule this season. Expected we would take a slight backward move, but future is bright and starts next season.
Who here would be willing to wager $100 on MU finishing next season rated 29th overall or better in final Pomeroy?
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I see that. They just weren't muscular enough this year. Weight room.
What freshmen are?
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If we don't make the NCAAs in 2018-2019, I will personally roll out the red carpet welcoming Nate Oats as the next MU coach.
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What freshmen are?
Theo
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I see that. They just weren't muscular enough this year. Weight room.
Todd built our guards for nearly all of the BEast run -- including our 'football team' under Buzz. Curious what changed - something about the players builds coming in or a change in direction on what he is being asked to do.
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Theo
So you've got one instance in how many?
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What I like about Wojo:
Recruits well
Runs a clean program (as far as we know)
Represents Marquette well
Offensive genius
Willing to try things defensively. Zone, 3/4 trap, trapping in the zone
What I don't like about Wojo:
Doesn't recruit multidimensional, multiple positional players. i.e. Switchables. Cain and Elliott are steps in the right direction.
I don't like how he uses his big man on high pick and rolls. Don't have him defending guards in space. Get his butt back to the lane and make your guards defend.
Hasn't had a complete roster in 4 years. Lack of players = lack of options. Can't bench players who aren't putting forth effort is there is no one to replace them with.
Not an alchemist/magician. Has not made his teams more than the sum of their products. Though he came closer to that this year.
I have said many times I think the key to Wojo's success is his ability to grow beyond his Duke roots. To build on and adapt it to Marquette. He has yet to instill the fire that he played with to his players. I see flashes, but not consistency. But I still see the roadmap. I can still see the foundation he is laying. He is still a young man and can still learn and grow. I am still on board, but not 100% sold.
Sorry, saying Wojo is an offensive genius don't make it so. That is hogwash, and that is so.
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Todd built our guards for nearly all of the BEast run -- including our 'football team' under Buzz. Curious what changed - something about the players builds coming in or a change in direction on what he is being asked to do.
Some bodies take more time to mature. You can chain someone to the weight room, make them eat 1,000g of protein a day and they wont necessarily look like Wolverine/Hulk after 6 months.
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Some bodies take more time to mature. You can chain someone to the weight room, make them eat 1,000g of protein a day and they wont necessarily look like Wolverine/Hulk after 6 months.
I think you may have mis-interpreted what I am saying. Of course the bodies do mature differently - but that is the same as when we brought in Vander, Jamil, Lazar, Dom and others. That has always been a factor. So things that could have changed are - our guards are on average younger, wojo is bringing in smaller players, wojo is stressing different things than adding bulk, etc.
What we do know is our strength and condition coach has a track record of building big east ready guards.
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Without a good grad transfer at the point next year absolutely none if this matters one iota
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Without a good grad transfer at the point next year absolutely none if this matters one iota
Yep, because if we don't get a grad transfer we're gonna forfeit every game next year.
We won't be as good without a grad transfer, but I would also like to see Wojo continue to develop talent, not letting a mid major coach do it, and then have Wojo use the kid for one year.
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Wojo realized his errors in recruiting 18 months ago. What did he do? He went out and got Elliott, Cain, Theo and to a lesser extent, Eke. All long athletic guys that will help on D. Now, they weren’t ‘highly” related guys, so might take a year to two to develop. But you could see the flashes on defense from these two guys plus Theo.
Without AR at the point, D will improve immensely this upcoming year and Wojo will be able to work in more wrinkles as guys get more experience. May be a bit less exciting offensively, but the D will be funnerer.
I am not sure I agree with this. I am happy with these players, but he signed 3 star players, because he could not get 4 star players.
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Sorry, saying Wojo is an offensive genius don't make it so. That is hogwash, and that is so.
Top 15 offensively the last two years.
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I think you may have mis-interpreted what I am saying. Of course the bodies do mature differently - but that is the same as when we brought in Vander, Jamil, Lazar, Dom and others. That has always been a factor. So things that could have changed are - our guards are on average younger, wojo is bringing in smaller players, wojo is stressing different things than adding bulk, etc.
What we do know is our strength and condition coach has a track record of building big east ready guards.
All the guys you named, all the pre-Wojo guys, were big when they came in. Theo was big when he came in too. Of course they all get bigger when they get to MU, but I doubt there's been a significant change in the way our guys are being trained. We just have some skinny guys right now; simple as that.
And as much as I think another 20 or so pounds on each Greg and Jamal would be great, I'm not sure we'll see that any time soon. They both seem like they're built skinny. Comparing their bodies to guys like Wes or Jamil is just night and day. Workouts will help, but genetics ultimately decides an awful lot about how a guy is built.
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Top 15 offensively the last two years.
I see a lot of great individual talent, in Rowsey and Howard to be able to create/manufacture, and wiggle their way into 3 point shots. Personally, I don't see great scheme that got either of those guys great looks with any frequency.
Take the Creighton game at home. Rowsey singlehandedly won that game by nailing 3, 3's from 27+ feet out. That aint coaching or "offensive genius."
Now, you could say the skill development aspect of coaching has been good - Brett Nelson rebuilt JJJ's shot. Sacar seems to be improving. Hauser, Rowsey and Howard all came in the door damn good shooters.
There was some good coaching sets that put Hauser into pick and pop situations that freed Hauser for some good looks.
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I see a lot of great individual talent, in Rowsey and Howard to be able to create/manufacture, and wiggle their way into 3 point shots. Personally, I don't see great scheme that got either of those guys great looks with any frequency.
Take the Creighton game at home. Rowsey singlehandedly won that game by nailing 3, 3's from 27+ feet out. That aint coaching or "offensive genius."
Now, you could say the skill development aspect of coaching has been good - Brett Nelson rebuilt JJJ's shot. Sacar seems to be improving. Hauser, Rowsey and Howard all came in the door damn good shooters.
There was some good coaching sets that put Hauser into pick and pop situations that freed Hauser for some good looks.
I can't speak for others, but I really like the play where either AR or MH runs off the double screen for a 3. Then the variation of that play where after he sets the second pick, Sam runs off the first one in the opposite direction, or the inbounds play with AR and whoever is center with the lob then handoff for a three, or the play for Sacar that I believe was first run for JJJ to win the LSU game, where he curls around the screen for either the drive or the free throw line jumper, or the lob alley oop play originally run for JJJ but also with Greg from under the basket. It was really clever for the players to come up with those themselves. Imagine what they could do if properly motivated.
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I see a lot of great individual talent, in Rowsey and Howard to be able to create/manufacture, and wiggle their way into 3 point shots. Personally, I don't see great scheme that got either of those guys great looks with any frequency.
Take the Creighton game at home. Rowsey singlehandedly won that game by nailing 3, 3's from 27+ feet out. That aint coaching or "offensive genius."
Now, you could say the skill development aspect of coaching has been good - Brett Nelson rebuilt JJJ's shot. Sacar seems to be improving. Hauser, Rowsey and Howard all came in the door damn good shooters.
There was some good coaching sets that put Hauser into pick and pop situations that freed Hauser for some good looks.
So our great offense is all players
But our terrible defense is all coaching
Personally, I think it is both, but would place more credit/blame with the players for both our strengths and our flaws.
Watching the NCAAs, it reminds me how good our offense is. So many other teams rely on single screens or isolation and end up jacking contested mid range shots more often than not. Wojos scheme got us a ton of open threes and shots at the rim.
Of course it also makes me appreciate how bad our defense is...
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Top 15 offensively the last two years.
How about since he has been there? Still top 15? And how about the bottom tier of the conference? How has that offensive genius paid off with that performance? Offensive genius? Hogwash. I compare that to Buzz Williams stating that Derrick Wilson was the greatest defensive player he ever coached. You Wojo Koll Aiders will grasp anything to prop up Wojo. Not competing for Beast championships after 4 years, and bottom tier conference standings suggests quite a bit more about Wojo's offensive genius. Not winning games matters.
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TAMU
MU just have the greatest duo of three point shooters in school history. Both took many suspect shots, and I was fine with that, but I think most credit goes to guys that can flat out shoot. Couple that with Hauser and it create a lot of opportunities. I truly doubt that we will see anything similar next season.
I do have to admit, I said after last season we could not shoot more threes this year over last year and possibly was wrong. Numbers were likely close. I think next season will see a great deal less of 30 foot bombs and real need for a more structured offensive scheme.
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Anyone that doesn't think Wojo is an offensive genius is a freaking moron. I'm sorry, but he took a terrible offensive team and turned it into a top-10 offense last year, then lost JJ, Fischer, and Reinhardt and maintained it despite a virtual non-factor at the 5 and five new players that had a combined 19 points scored for Marquette (Anim's freshman year total).
Defensively, we were a sieve each of the past two years and I have serious concerns about that improving, but offensively he is a wizard. We had two of the three most prolific scoring seasons in school history, sandwiched around a guy named Wade. I understand the differences between the 1970s players and today in terms of the three-point line and number of games played, but those are still incredibly impressive numbers.
Despite all that, if we are a bubble team again next year, even if we are in the tournament, I think it may be time to part ways with Wojo. I'm not sold on him yet as a long-term answer and I don't think simply taking Rowsey out and adding Morrow and Joey will magically turn our sub-175 defense into a top-75 defense. But in terms of offense? Yeah, the guy has a golden touch and I have no doubt we'll lose the most prolific single-season scorer in Marquette history and still have a top-20 offense next year.
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Anyone that doesn't think Wojo is an offensive genius is a freaking moron. I'm sorry, but he took a terrible offensive team and turned it into a top-10 offense last year, then lost JJ, Fischer, and Reinhardt and maintained it despite a virtual non-factor at the 5 and five new players that had a combined 19 points scored for Marquette (Anim's freshman year total).
Defensively, we were a sieve each of the past two years and I have serious concerns about that improving, but offensively he is a wizard. We had two of the three most prolific scoring seasons in school history, sandwiched around a guy named Wade. I understand the differences between the 1970s players and today in terms of the three-point line and number of games played, but those are still incredibly impressive numbers.
Despite all that, if we are a bubble team again next year, even if we are in the tournament, I think it may be time to part ways with Wojo. I'm not sold on him yet as a long-term answer and I don't think simply taking Rowsey out and adding Morrow and Joey will magically turn our sub-175 defense into a top-75 defense. But in terms of offense? Yeah, the guy has a golden touch and I have no doubt we'll lose the most prolific single-season scorer in Marquette history and still have a top-20 offense next year.
I'm one of the "freaking morons" who doesn't think Wojo is an "offensive genius."
Out of curiosity, where was the "offensive genius" in Year 1 and 2? 154 and 116. Genius material?
So, if we aren't a Top 20 offense next year can we agree Wojo isn't an offensive genius, and you are a "freaking moron?"
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Bill Walsh of the 49ers was an offensive genius. Come on, I hope this discussion is just to punk people to agree with the ridiculous idea Wojo is offensive genius.
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I'm one of the "freaking morons" who doesn't think Wojo is an "offensive genius."
Out of curiosity, where was the "offensive genius" in Year 1 and 2? 154 and 116. Genius material?
So, if we aren't a Top 20 offense next year can we agree Wojo isn't an offensive genius, and you are a "freaking moron?"
He has an obvious knack for understanding offense. You think we were 8th and 13th by accident? Or he just got lucky, stumbled in a North Carolina hole, and came out with Andrew Rowsey? Please.
As far as his first year, Matt Carlino, Derrick Wilson, and Juan Anderson all had career years offensively. His second year we saw obvious improvement from guys that would become foundational pieces for that 8th ranked offense in JJ and Luke. And it all paid off the last two years. These are the two most efficient offenses since Dwyane Wade took us to the Final Four. With massive roster turnover in the interim. Crean never had an offense again at Marquette as efficient as Wojo has had the past two years. Buzz never had an offense as efficient as Wojo's past two years.
Last year, Wojo had the most efficient offensive team at Marquette in the advanced stats era. This year, he lost 3 of his top 5 (and 4 of his top 7) scorers and had the third most efficient offensive team at Marquette in the advanced stats era. That isn't by accident.
Criticize his defense all you want. I would do the same. But offensively, the guy is killing it. In the past two years, there have been 6 other teams to be ranked in the top-15 offensively both years. The other programs are Villanova, Duke, Kansas, Arizona, Wichita State, and St. Mary's. That's impressive company.
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He has an obvious knack for understanding offense. You think we were 8th and 13th by accident? Or he just got lucky, stumbled in a North Carolina hole, and came out with Andrew Rowsey? Please.
As far as his first year, Matt Carlino, Derrick Wilson, and Juan Anderson all had career years offensively. His second year we saw obvious improvement from guys that would become foundational pieces for that 8th ranked offense in JJ and Luke. And it all paid off the last two years. These are the two most efficient offenses since Dwyane Wade took us to the Final Four. With massive roster turnover in the interim. Crean never had an offense again at Marquette as efficient as Wojo has had the past two years. Buzz never had an offense as efficient as Wojo's past two years.
Last year, Wojo had the most efficient offensive team at Marquette in the advanced stats era. This year, he lost 3 of his top 5 (and 4 of his top 7) scorers and had the third most efficient offensive team at Marquette in the advanced stats era. That isn't by accident.
Criticize his defense all you want. I would do the same. But offensively, the guy is killing it. In the past two years, there have been 6 other teams to be ranked in the top-15 offensively both years. The other programs are Villanova, Duke, Kansas, Arizona, Wichita State, and St. Mary's. That's impressive company.
I agree, that is impressive company. Unfortunately out of all of those teams we are the only to not win an NCAA tournament game.
Guess we will see next year. I simply feel Rowsey was the straw that stirred the drink this year. Think both Markus and Sam's job becomes a lot more difficult next year with Andrew gone.
Friendly wager on this Top 20 Offensive Rating for next year? You're right, I'll change my signature to: Wojo is an offensive genius, and I am a freaking moron. You are wrong, your signature becomes: Wojo isn't an offensive genius and I'm a freaking moron. ;D
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I agree, that is impressive company. Unfortunately out of all of those teams we are the only to not win an NCAA tournament game.
Guess we will see next year. I simply feel Rowsey was the straw that stirred the drink this year. Think both Markus and Sam's job becomes a lot more difficult next year with Andrew gone.
Friendly wager on this Top 20 Offensive Rating for next year? You're right, I'll change my signature to: Wojo is an offensive genius, and I am a freaking moron. You are wrong, your signature becomes: Wojo isn't an offensive genius and I'm a freaking moron. ;D
I'm good with that. And as I've said elsewhere, this really just underscores how bad the defense has been. When you consider this defense, that we've been a NCAA and NIT team in connective years and won 40 games the past two years is remarkable. All because the offense is national championship calibur good.
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Who here would be willing to wager $100 on MU finishing next season rated 29th overall or better in final Pomeroy?
Here are some of the teams that finished this year 29th or better
Seton Hall
St. Mary's
Penn State
Butler
TCU
Do I think next year we can have a team at that level? Yes, I do. Creighton finished at 31, a team we beat twice this year.
I expect us to be in the 20's next season unless we are dealt with a major injury or transfer that changes the impact greatly of the program.
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Wojo has been substandard since taking over.
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Question on the "offensive genius" comment, has any other team copied Wojo's to scheme yet? I have never see a genius not be copied before, and copied quickly.
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Question on the "offensive genius" comment, has any other team copied Wojo's to scheme yet? I have never see a genius not be copied before, and copied quickly.
Basketball at every level is becoming more focused on three point shooting. Wojo, along with many other coaches have jumped on that train. I think the word genius was probably a poor choice, but he is an excellent offensive coach.
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Question on the "offensive genius" comment, has any other team copied Wojo's to scheme yet? I have never see a genius not be copied before, and copied quickly.
Not many teams have had 3 of the best three point shooters in the NCAA.
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Basketball at every level is becoming more focused on three point shooting. Wojo, along with many other coaches have jumped on that train. I think the word genius was probably a poor choice, but he is an excellent offensive coach.
It's interesting that he seems open to following the analytical approach that the NBA has embraced, which has steered him and other coaches to a focus on three point shooting, but he he seems to be more stubborn on the defensive side. I wonder if there are defensive trends that have risen in popularity based on data. Maybe defense is simpler and is harder to get analytical insights out of, but maybe there could be something there.
Don't our guys wear some kind of tracker to allow the team to use data to analyze performance trends? Does anyone know more about that and how it's used at MU?
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It's interesting that he seems open to following the analytical approach that the NBA has embraced, which has steered him and other coaches to a focus on three point shooting, but he he seems to be more stubborn on the defensive side. I wonder if there are defensive trends that have risen in popularity based on data. Maybe defense is simpler and is harder to get analytical insights out of, but maybe there could be something there.
Don't our guys wear some kind of tracker to allow the team to use data to analyze performance trends? Does anyone know more about that and how it's used at MU?
I think the fact that we switched almost every screen this year means that Wojo was willing to trade 2s for 3s. Matt will be beat by a Brunson or a Ponds 100 times out of 100. But if he only gives up a lay-up that's not as bad as giving up a three. I don't necessarily agree with this, but it seems to be the mentality that he had. It is also easier to get open 3s against a zone, and you can just ask ners how many possessions of zone we played all year, which tells me that giving up lay-ups is preferred over open 3s. Makes sense in theory, not so much in execution.
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The "offensive genius" thing reminds me of that scene in Bull Durham, where Crash Davis asks, "You know what the difference between hitting .250 and .300 is? .. you get just one extra flair a week, one gork, a ground ball with eyes, you get an extra dying quail each week and you're in Yankee Stadium."
Rowsey, Howard and Hauser are not one but three dying of Wojo's dying quail's a week. Their long-range ability brings a bright shine to MU's offense. You put those 3 guys on any team, you're gonna win a decent amount of games. Conversely, if those guys shot like average humans on MU's team .. we'd struggle to win 4 games in the Big East.
Offensive or Defensive geniuses .. tend to make their team more than the sum of their parts. I haven't seen much of that in the last 4 years.
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Had a thought today. If everybody is so pissed off at Wojo after a admittedly mediocre 4 seasons, what would scoop have been like during the Bob Dukiet years? As much as we have some crazy posters, I'd say we're pretty patient in comparison to other Power Conference schools.
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Chitown
For the record, Wojo looks like John Wooden in comparison Dukiet. The only time I EVER cheered against MU has Dukiet's final month at MU. At the time, anyone with a brain figured and thought he would be fired, but even folks on the inside were confident MU would pull the trigger.
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Chitown
For the record, Wojo looks like John Wooden in comparison Dukiet. The only time I EVER cheered against MU has Dukiet's final month at MU. At the time, anyone with a brain figured and thought he would be fired, but even folks on the inside were confident MU would pull the trigger.
Oh I don't disagree. For the longest time I actually thought Dukiet was actually a nickname scoop gave him because he was such a crap coach.
Trust me I am as frustrated as anybody else. I went from a Sweet 16 and an Elite 8 my Freshman and sophomore years to Marquette's first losing season in a long time my senior year but even though I didn't live through that era, I thank my lucky stars I did not have to watch a Bob Dukiet coached team. I feel bad for anybody who did.
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Top 15 offensively the last two years.
following this logic Wojo is also a defensive moron
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following this logic Wojo is also a defensive moron
I wouldn't use the same words (genius or moron) but yes, I think there are a lot of concerns in Wojos ability to coach defense and a lot to like in how he coaches offense
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So you've got one instance in how many?
You asked - I answered. Thought it was funny given how just this year Theo came in looking like Terry Crews. Here are some other freshman that came in and already had college-ready bodies:
Wes Matthews
Dominic James
Derrick Wilson
Joe Nethen
Faisal Abraham
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You asked - I answered. Thought it was funny given how just this year Theo came in looking like Terry Crews. Here are some other freshman that came in and already had college-ready bodies:
Wes Matthews
Dominic James
Derrick Wilson
Joe Nethen
Faisal Abraham
Joe Nethen???
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You asked - I answered. Thought it was funny given how just this year Theo came in looking like Terry Crews. Here are some other freshman that came in and already had college-ready bodies:
Wes Matthews
Dominic James
Derrick Wilson
Joe Nethen
Faisal Abraham
Wes Matthews weighed 190 as a frosh and 220 as a senior.
Sure he came in stronger than Elliott, Cain, and Jajaun Johnson but far from a finished product.
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Wes Matthews weighed 190 as a frosh and 220 as a senior.
Sure he came in stronger than Elliott, Cain, and Jajaun Johnson but far from a finished product.
Did I say finished product? He was college ready. Compare frosh Wes to frosh Cain/Elliot.
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Joe Nethen???
I threw in Joe for fun. But anyone who tore down a backboard in high school would qualify as having a college-ready body.
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Did I say finished product? He was college ready. Compare frosh Wes to frosh Cain/Elliot.
Ok. I think by that definition we are in agreement. I incorrectly inferred finished product.
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Anyone that doesn't think Wojo is an offensive genius is a freaking moron. I'm sorry, but he took a terrible offensive team and turned it into a top-10 offense last year, then lost JJ, Fischer, and Reinhardt and maintained it despite a virtual non-factor at the 5 and five new players that had a combined 19 points scored for Marquette (Anim's freshman year total).
Defensively, we were a sieve each of the past two years and I have serious concerns about that improving, but offensively he is a wizard. We had two of the three most prolific scoring seasons in school history, sandwiched around a guy named Wade. I understand the differences between the 1970s players and today in terms of the three-point line and number of games played, but those are still incredibly impressive numbers.
Despite all that, if we are a bubble team again next year, even if we are in the tournament, I think it may be time to part ways with Wojo. I'm not sold on him yet as a long-term answer and I don't think simply taking Rowsey out and adding Morrow and Joey will magically turn our sub-175 defense into a top-75 defense. But in terms of offense? Yeah, the guy has a golden touch and I have no doubt we'll lose the most prolific single-season scorer in Marquette history and still have a top-20 offense next year.
He is a good offensive coach. Hardly a genius. He has/had three of the best shooters in MU history. With Andrew leaving, lets see how next season pans out offensively.
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He is a good offensive coach. Hardly a genius. He has/had three of the best shooters in MU history. With Andrew leaving, lets see how next season pans out offensively.
Derrick Wilson by far had his best shooting season under Wojo. That is the tipping point of genius.
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Had a thought today. If everybody is so pissed off at Wojo after a admittedly mediocre 4 seasons, what would scoop have been like during the Bob Dukiet years? As much as we have some crazy posters, I'd say we're pretty patient in comparison to other Power Conference schools.
Admittedly 4 mediocre seasons? You lost me there. First few years rebuild. Two post season appearances since, youngest team in Big East this year. Way too many glass half empty fans.
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He is a good offensive coach. Hardly a genius. He has/had three of the best shooters in MU history. With Andrew leaving, lets see how next season pans out offensively.
Next years offense is the least of my concerns.
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Admittedly 4 mediocre seasons? You lost me there. First few years rebuild. Two post season appearances since, youngest team in Big East this year. Way too many glass half empty fans.
This is one way to look at it. Another? 4-years into the regime and we've yet to win an NCAA game. Understand you feel we could be a Top 30 team next year, which essentially becomes a coin flip win/lose in NCAA tournament.
Lots of pressure on Wojo next year. Vast majority of fanbase is expecting a 20-30 spot improvement, and NCAA bid. Miss the NCAA again next year, and the seat will be getting warm.
I can see reasons for optimism, however, all of that is tempered by the loss of Rowsey. For all we gain in experience, Morrow, Joey - losing a guy like Rowsey will create MANY more challenges offensively for Sam and Markus.
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The biggest weakness of Wojo's tenure, and I wouldn't put all of the blame on him, is getting the classes balanced. This is due to the many transfers, and the consistent aspect of each of our teams being under-manned and - for the most part - inexperienced. I think this past freshmen class - Cain, Elliot, John and Eke - is the most important class for Wojo. He not only needs to make sure they stay, but also that they also develop and continue to get better. Former players that transferred out - like Cohen, Carter, Cheatham - clearly regressed and took a step back in their 2nd years (which probably led to them looking to transfer and seek other playing opportunities). It also led to younger players getting more minutes, leading to the inexperienced problem.
With regards to this past year's team, an interesting thought is what the team would have done if Duane and Haanif stayed. While it would have cut the minutes of the freshmen down, it also would have given us experience and length.
Hopefully, the balance of classes gets solidified next year and the inexperience factor gets eliminated. It'll be interesting to see what transfers are added to the group.
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The biggest weakness of Wojo's tenure, and I wouldn't put all of the blame on him, is getting the classes balanced. This is due to the many transfers, and the consistent aspect of each of our teams being under-manned and - for the most part - inexperienced. I think this past freshmen class - Cain, Elliot, John and Eke - is the most important class for Wojo. He not only needs to make sure they stay, but also that they also develop and continue to get better. Former players that transferred out - like Cohen, Carter, Cheatham - clearly regressed and took a step back in their 2nd years (which probably led to them looking to transfer and seek other playing opportunities). It also led to younger players getting more minutes, leading to the inexperienced problem.
That is what happens when you recruit players that aren’t good enough to be starters in the Big East. They lose playing time and leave.
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Miss the NCAA again next year, and the seat will be getting warm.
Miss the NCAA again next year and his seat will be 1,000 degrees Kelvin.
The runway is shortening. We are moving into a new arena. We're four years into Wojo's era and we expect results in Year 5.
The "youngsters" aren't youngsters anymore. The recruits are good and Loyola is showing it is the preeminent Jesuit college basketball team -- at least this year. They've outlasted Gonzaga and Creighton and showed up when Marquette and Georgetown didn't. This cannot happen again! No way, no how.
Wojo needs to get himself a point guard, or find it among this year's remaining team members. He needs to fill the last two schollys with people who will push us over the edge and, ideally, get us to teh Sweet 16 or better.
No more "we're young," or "we lost a lot with Rowsey." Or, we had transfers. Those days are now over.
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Do any of the posters that don't think Wojo is a good offensive coach, watch any other teams besides MU? The BE is filled with elite offenses, better than all other major conferences. The NCAA tournament is filled with mid-tier major conferences tournament, whose best offensive set is get it to your best ball handler and let him go one on one. Loved winning under Buzz, but his offense at times were rock fights.
Defensively, we have gotten worse every year under him. A competent defense would put this team in the top 25.
To be truly successful in the NCAA, we have to either recruit heavily the top 25. Or recruit guys that will develop into top players by the time they are junior and seniors, like the rest of the Big East.
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Lack of 4 year players has hurt them as much as anything. It's been apparent watching boys against men this year.
5 of the 6 Big East 1st team players are seniors. Marquette has had one 4 year senior in the past 3 years. I know there are a number of reasons for this, but that's one that that needs to change.
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The crazy thing is that Wojo will get us to the NCAAs next year, and probably the year after and likely one of a few scenarios happen.
Didn't go far enough in the tournament because some people only care about that outcome, and he leaves.
We go far in the tournament and he leaves anyway because a better job opens up.
Or we don't make the tournament, and he's let go.
Either way, we start all over again. One guy has stuck around longer than 6 years here in the last three decades.
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Miss the NCAA again next year and his seat will be 1,000 degrees Kelvin.
The runway is shortening. We are moving into a new arena. We're four years into Wojo's era and we expect results in Year 5.
The "youngsters" aren't youngsters anymore. The recruits are good and Loyola is showing it is the preeminent Jesuit college basketball team -- at least this year. They've outlasted Gonzaga and Creighton and showed up when Marquette and Georgetown didn't. This cannot happen again! No way, no how.
Wojo needs to get himself a point guard, or find it among this year's remaining team members. He needs to fill the last two schollys with people who will push us over the edge and, ideally, get us to teh Sweet 16 or better.
No more "we're young," or "we lost a lot with Rowsey." Or, we had transfers. Those days are now over.
There should not even be any talk of missing the NCAA's next year, because according to all the Wojo Kool Aiders here, we will be really really good next year, Wojo is an offensive genius, and it is his 5th year with all his own studs. With all that Kool Aid, we should all realize that we will be top tier in BEast and make deep run in the dance. We can all dream.
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There should not even be any talk of missing the NCAA's next year, because according to all the Wojo Kool Aiders here, we will be really really good next year, Wojo is an offensive genius, and it is his 5th year with all his own studs. With all that Kool Aid, we should all realize that we will be top tier in BEast and make deep run in the dance. We can all dream.
When we were in the BE and made deep runs in the dance you complained about the coach then too.
My guess is that you would still complain if we did it again.
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After only four years at MU, Wojo's player's include the top scoring freshmen in MU history (Ellenson), the top scoring sophomore in MU history (Howard) and the top scoring senior in MU history (Rousey). There is a good chance that Howard will be the top scoring junior in MU history after next year.
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There should not even be any talk of missing the NCAA's next year, because according to all the Wojo Kool Aiders here, we will be really really good next year, Wojo is an offensive genius, and it is his 5th year with all his own studs. With all that Kool Aid, we should all realize that we will be top tier in BEast and make deep run in the dance. We can all dream.
Remember how much you whined about S16-S16-E8 Buzz? We sure do. There is just no pleasing a wee willie.
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Admittedly 4 mediocre seasons? You lost me there. First few years rebuild. Two post season appearances since, youngest team in Big East this year. Way too many glass half empty fans.
I'm definitely in the pro Wojo camp and completely understand the first two years were not his fault. Really woulda liked to be in the big dance this year is all. Stupid DePaul.
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I'm definitely in the pro Wojo camp and completely understand the first two years were not his fault. Really woulda liked to be in the big dance this year is all. Stupid DePaul.
It's almost like some Marquette fans change their opinion depending on which way the wind is blowing.
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I'm definitely in the pro Wojo camp and completely understand the first two years were not his fault. Really woulda liked to be in the big dance this year is all. Stupid DePaul.
We played an extremely difficult schedule. Depaul loss was one, but Georgia was another. Young teams sometimes have shocking wins and shocking losses.
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Admittedly 4 mediocre seasons? You lost me there. First few years rebuild. Two post season appearances since, youngest team in Big East this year. Way too many glass half empty fans.
Yeah, I'm with you WD. At the Beginning of the year many Posters were expecting a Step Back from last year and would be happy with an NIT bid.
I think KenPom Had us at 16 wins (They Didn't consider the Maui games), well we beat that. I think the BEAST Coach's as well as others had us finishing where we did.
I think most Posters are happy with the Offense and would agree that the Defense has to be fixed. If anyone get a chance to see Coach K's Sideline interview immediately after the Syracuse game they might get some more insight in coaching Players.
I view these 4 years as an upward trend and would not be surprised if Wojo is rewarded by the Admin.
I'm upbeat about year 5, But still cautious after the Froling experience and now a player coming off a 2 year Mission, it would seem away from Basketball. But I see a NCAA bid with no sweat. All Good.
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Porter Moser had a losing record in four of his first five seasons at Loyola. Now he’s bringing his Ramblers to the Final Four. Loyola's administration showed patience letting him build the program. Moser is a Rick Majerus disciple.
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Porter Moser had a losing record in four of his first five seasons at Loyola. Now he’s bringing his Ramblers to the Final Four. Loyola's administration showed patience letting him build the program. Moser is a Rick Majerus disciple.
Not just a losing record, a really bad conference losing record.
Year 1 1-17
Year 2 5-11
Year 3 4-14 (A portion of MU fans asking for firing here)
Year 4 8-10 (Some are silenced for a year with improvement)
Year 5 7-11 (MU fans go off the rail here)
Year 6 8-10 (the fire Porter MU train is full steam ahead with 10% refusing to get on)
Year 7 15-3 (100% on board Porter is greatest coach ever and never waivered)
Juniors and Seniors that learn how to win will do that for you.
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Not just a losing record, a really bad conference losing record.
Year 1 1-17
Year 2 5-11
Year 3 4-14 (A portion of MU fans asking for firing here)
Year 4 8-10 (Some are silenced for a year with improvement)
Year 5 7-11 (MU fans go off the rail here)
Year 6 8-10 (the fire Porter MU train is full steam ahead with 10% refusing to get on)
Year 7 15-3 (100% on board Porter is greatest coach ever and never waivered)
Juniors and Seniors that learn how to win will do that for you.
One most consider the starting point as well. From the April 2017 from the press release announcing his second extension. He also received an extension in 2013:
Over the last three years, Moser has steered the Ramblers to 57 wins, the most over a three-year period in 30 years and he piloted Loyola to the 2015 College Basketball Invitational (CBI) championship, the program’s first postseason title since capturing the 1963 NCAA championship. This season, Loyola received votes for the Associated Press Top 25 Poll for the first time since the 1984-85 campaign.
http://www.valleyhoopsinsider.com/porter-moser-signs-extension/
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Porter Moser had a losing record in four of his first five seasons at Loyola. Now he’s bringing his Ramblers to the Final Four. Loyola's administration showed patience letting him build the program. Moser is a Rick Majerus disciple.
We aren't Loyola.
I'm a graduate of both schools and I hope Loyola does what they did when I was six. But, we spend oodles more on basketball than they do. We play in a real conference with only one mid-major team (DePaul) and the probable national champion. We have a new arena coming on line more than twice the size of their's.
Look, I'm not diminishing what Loyola did this year. It's spectacular. Sister Jean is a sweetheart who embraces all the values we hold dear as Jesuit educated people. But this year is a bit of a freak for Loyola. Their year is an expectation for us. When we don't get it, we start calling for heads and wonder what's wrong. If we went 33 years without a trip to the NCAA, we'd burn campus down!
If they don't go, they act like Cub fans.
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dgies
Spot on. To compare Moser’s career path at Loyola to MU situation is off target. MU is a basketball school and Loyola is not. I have said many times, if MU wants to spend limited money on the program, I would not complain about on court success.
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It's almost like some Marquette fans change their opinion depending on which way the wind is blowing.
Not dissimilar from most fans.
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When Loyola was getting interest from the MVC, they were told that they needed to increase their basketball budget in order to be considered for membership. They did. This year's team is the first class experiencing the increase in expenses on recruiting and under the MVC-label. If they decided to spend as much on men's basketball as other Big East programs, due to this historical run, then it is likely that this year is not a one-off.
If Loyola is committed, they will continue building this thing up. Who's to say they didn't see what the Big East was able to do - becoming the highest and most prestigious non-football conference nationwide - and ask, "Why can't we be at that level?"
It will be fascinating to see where Loyola is in ten years. Runs like these really spark more investments, admissions and resources into a school and program. Heck, look at Marquette's Final Four run in 2003. It's very arguable that the run alone was enough to propel us into an invitation to the Big East.