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Author Topic: Wojo, 4 years in  (Read 33962 times)

tower912

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Wojo, 4 years in
« on: March 09, 2018, 10:13:59 AM »
What I like about Wojo:
Recruits well
Runs a clean program (as far as we know)
Represents Marquette well
Offensive genius
Willing to try things defensively.   Zone, 3/4 trap, trapping in the zone

What I don't like about Wojo:
Doesn't recruit multidimensional, multiple positional players.   i.e. Switchables.  Cain and Elliott are steps in the right direction.
I don't like how he uses his big man on high pick and rolls.    Don't have him defending guards in space.    Get his butt back to the lane and make your guards defend. 
Hasn't had a complete roster in 4 years.    Lack of players = lack of options.    Can't bench players who aren't putting forth effort is there is no one to replace them with. 
Not an alchemist/magician.    Has not made his teams more than the sum of their products.    Though he came closer to that this year. 

I have said many times I think the key to Wojo's success is his ability to grow beyond his Duke roots.    To build on and adapt it to Marquette.    He has yet to instill the fire that he played with to his players.      I see flashes, but not consistency.   But I still see the roadmap.    I can still see the foundation he is laying.   He is still a young man and can still learn and grow.   I am still on board, but not 100% sold.   
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

manny31

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2018, 11:03:14 AM »
I agree with Tower for the most part. The lack of a complete roster is on Wojo IMO. What is maddening for me is the lack of consistency and what seems to me a lack of toughness. Say what you want about Buzz but his teams were tough. It surprises me that Wojo's teams aren't grittier, I like Wojo and really hope he has a ton of success at MU, for me, if I don't see marked improvement I think MU needs to start thinking about alternatives. Marked improvement for me is solidly in the NCAA tourney and a top 4 B-East finish?? Marked improvement is a little like porn, can't define it that well but I will know it when I see it.

GoldenZebra

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2018, 11:05:00 AM »
Even though its frustrating to see the team falter when it could soar, Id keep Wojo for as long as we can. I like that dude.

Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2018, 11:25:59 AM »
Things to Work on for 18-19, many may be obvious:
- Limit hero ball : Need 5 contributors, not 2
- Work the ball into the post.  Granted we don't have much offensive talent in the middle [yet], but it helps sag the defense and open up the outside.  Teams brought their guards/forwards to the perimeter that forced many 27 footers
- Develop slashing ability for Greg and Jamal similar to the growth that Sacar had.
- Theo : footwork on offense, defense : Stay planted until confident a shot is going up
- Defense, Defense, Defense.  Avoid mismatches in high ball screen.  Being aggressive without fouling.
- Recruiting : Point guard with size.  WVU always has PG's that look like they are 36, and maybe they are.  Always tough nose defenders.

warriorfred

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2018, 11:36:57 AM »
Great summary.  I never really thought about the lack of "switchables."  Woo definitely recruits for roles.  The downside to that philosophy is that a transfer, injury, or "dud," leaves a notably unbalanced roster.

HammerScreen

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2018, 11:54:50 AM »
Well said Tower.

A balance needs to be found regarding switchables. For example, Buzz would mainly recruit these guys while Wojo is the opposite. Buzz's teams lacked consistent knockdown shooters. For this offense to work, we absolutely need outside shooting, so finding a balance is key. I agree, Jamal and Greg are a step in the right direction. Jamal has the ability to be a switchable and solid shooter from what we saw this year.

The defensive hedging of our bigs drives me insane. Unless the big is an outside shooter, there is no reason for our immobile bigs to be out corralling ball handlers. On the PnR, its more effective to just sit on the free throw line in my opinion. This is similar to what the Bucks did with their blitzing defense that only worked for 1 year. Hopefully we can improve this next year.

As some have noted frequently, next year is big. A tourney birth is a must for me, and I see us getting in easily assuming we progress as the guys did this year. Tower, you put it well - I'm on board but not 100% sold.

skianth16

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2018, 12:01:25 PM »
I am most definitely in the not 100% sold camp as well, although I think my list of cons may be longer than yours. A few things that worry me about Wojo so far have been:
  • Sub-par defense - yes, there are personnel issues, but this is 100% his roster now. This is avoidable.
  • Transfers - I know it's common in college hoops, but we've lost  guys every year, (potentially) key pieces and even lost a few guys mid-year. That seems less common and more problematic than what most schools experience.
  • Recruiting - His strong suit! I worry about his ability to continue to land top talent without the insider leverage we've had for Henry, Joey, and Markus. We won't always be able to land an older brother of a top 50 guy, and our assistant coaches won't be family friends with recruits often enough to rely on them consistently
  • Rigidity - Wojo has been more flexible this year with defenses and lineups, but he still loves what's comfortable, even if it's not working well or has been shown in the past that it's not the best. He's getting better here, but I still think he's a bit too stubborn to maximize the talent on a given roster
  • The Ultimate Green Light - it's fun to watch guys shoot the lights out, but I think the green light from the Al kind of mentality can lead to hero ball and can encourage iffy shot selection. I'd like to see this reigned in a little more in future years

On the other hand, he's obviously done plenty of good things, and it does seem clear that the direction we're headed in is a good one, even if the speed has felt a bit slow at times. Pros for Wojo take less explanation and are easily agreed upon - great offensive mind, recruiting quality kids (on the court and off), running the right kind of program, not falling short of expectations set for him. These things are crucial to building a program that is uniquely his, not Buzz's, not Crean's, and not Al's. That will all pay off in the long run. Hopefully not too long, though.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 12:03:23 PM by skianth16 »

avid1010

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2018, 12:13:24 PM »
i get that it's fun to list what we think wojo does right and wrong...but i think it's really hard to understand what it takes to be successful at that level.  in the end...wins and losses....and i'd like to see a little more winning.  imho, mu should be an annual NCAA team and occasional second round team.  if that's not happening...we should be looking for a new coach.  no ncaa next year...send him packing.   

skianth16

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2018, 05:54:39 PM »
Even though its frustrating to see the team falter when it could soar, Id keep Wojo for as long as we can. I like that dude.

Would you put the shortcomings more on the players then? Or do you think Wojo has had missteps but is improving?

WarriorDad

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2018, 11:46:41 PM »
Buzz Williams last year avg 71
Wojo Year 1 avg rating 112
Wojo Year 2 avg rating 98
Wojo Year 3 avg rating 37
Wojo Year 4 avg rating 52


I expect next year in the teens, 20's at worse.  We lost a lot of experience and talent from last year, played a tougher schedule this season.  Expected we would take a slight backward move, but future is bright and starts next season.
“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
— Plato

goinUptown

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2018, 02:06:13 AM »
What I like about Wojo:
Recruits well
Runs a clean program (as far as we know)
Represents Marquette well
Offensive genius
Willing to try things defensively.   Zone, 3/4 trap, trapping in the zone

What I don't like about Wojo:
Doesn't recruit multidimensional, multiple positional players.   i.e. Switchables.  Cain and Elliott are steps in the right direction.
I don't like how he uses his big man on high pick and rolls.    Don't have him defending guards in space.    Get his butt back to the lane and make your guards defend. 
Hasn't had a complete roster in 4 years.    Lack of players = lack of options.    Can't bench players who aren't putting forth effort is there is no one to replace them with. 
Not an alchemist/magician.    Has not made his teams more than the sum of their products.    Though he came closer to that this year. 

I have said many times I think the key to Wojo's success is his ability to grow beyond his Duke roots.    To build on and adapt it to Marquette.    He has yet to instill the fire that he played with to his players.      I see flashes, but not consistency.   But I still see the roadmap.    I can still see the foundation he is laying.   He is still a young man and can still learn and grow.   I am still on board, but not 100% sold.

I mentioned about two years into the Wojo era, that he failed to identify our DNA and recruit tough (and they often seem to come as switchable types).  He finally has done that with the Detroit area players, so we'll really like next year, I'm thinking; it builds on all the shooting, finesse (Duke-like?) that we already have.

I thought Traci Carter could have filled this role for at least one player but wasn't meant to be...

goinUptown

connie

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2018, 06:35:41 AM »
What I like about Wojo:
Recruits well
Runs a clean program (as far as we know)
Represents Marquette well
Offensive genius
Willing to try things defensively.   Zone, 3/4 trap, trapping in the zone

What I don't like about Wojo:
Doesn't recruit multidimensional, multiple positional players.   i.e. Switchables.  Cain and Elliott are steps in the right direction.
I don't like how he uses his big man on high pick and rolls.    Don't have him defending guards in space.    Get his butt back to the lane and make your guards defend. 
Hasn't had a complete roster in 4 years.    Lack of players = lack of options.    Can't bench players who aren't putting forth effort is there is no one to replace them with. 
Not an alchemist/magician.    Has not made his teams more than the sum of their products.    Though he came closer to that this year. 

I have said many times I think the key to Wojo's success is his ability to grow beyond his Duke roots.    To build on and adapt it to Marquette.    He has yet to instill the fire that he played with to his players.      I see flashes, but not consistency.   But I still see the roadmap.    I can still see the foundation he is laying.   He is still a young man and can still learn and grow.   I am still on board, but not 100% sold.
I think this is pretty balanced.  I think am a bit more down on Wojo than you, but that is simply weighting the above differently.
"Let's be careful out there."  Phil Esterhaus

tower912

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2018, 11:12:16 AM »
Over the last 6 weeks, I have started to perceive Wojo's recruiting differently.     Clearly, he has gotten some good players.     But the Big East is a big guards league.    A muscular 6'5-6'6 guard league.    Wojo hasn't recruited that player.      Next year, as the roster is currently assembled (still rooting for the grad transfer PG with size), MU's best hope is to have some of our guys assumed to be forwards to improve their ball handling and play the two.     Cain.   Sam.   Bailey.      I still think MU is going to be better next year, especially on defense, since Wojo won't have two guards guarding guys 7 inches and 40 lbs heavier who move equally well.    But the players are going to have to hit the weight room.   
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

IrwinFletcher

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2018, 11:50:06 AM »
Wojo realized his errors in recruiting 18 months ago.  What did he do? He went out and got Elliott, Cain, Theo and to a lesser extent, Eke.  All long athletic guys that will help on D.  Now, they weren’t ‘highly” related guys, so might take a year to two to develop.  But you could see the flashes on defense from these two guys plus Theo.

Without AR at the point, D will improve immensely this upcoming year and Wojo will be able to work in more wrinkles as guys get more experience.  May be a bit less exciting offensively, but the D will be funnerer.

tower912

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2018, 11:52:07 AM »
I see that.  They just weren't muscular enough this year.  Weight room.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

OhioGoldenEagle

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2018, 11:55:20 AM »
I am securely in the "Be patient with Wojo" camp.  I understand the griping from many regarding "softness" and lack of defense, however I counter with the quality of kids that he is bringing in from a talent and behavioral standpoint......as well as the fact that Wojo is still very early in his Head Coaching career. 

I also would like to remind those in the "Fire Wojo" camp how painful it is to blowup programs and the difficulty it is to rebuild (We have been and are going through this!).  The Crean/Williams transition was an aberration considering the upperclassman that Buzz inherited.....of which he was immediately able to leverage in recruiting.  He also hit paydirt with the JuCo kids that he used to supplement the loss of MU committed players (and/or underclassman). 

I close my argument by pointing to Jay Wright and the Villanova program.  After 6 years as the Hofstra Head Coach, Jay Wright took the Villanova HC position in 2001.  He did not have immediate success (similar to Wojo) and lead the Nova team to NIT post season play in their first 3 seasons (2001-2004).  The program took a big leap in '05 and sustained through '08 with NCAA results of Elite8, 1st Round, Sweet 16, and Final Four.  However, from 2009 through 2015 a series of early exits and one non NCAA appearance had many speculating about his future with Villanova.  The administration ignored the chatter and stuck with him and were rewarded with the NCAA title in 2016......and look like they might be on their way again here in 2018.

I am going to stay patient on this one and stick with Wojo and Co. for at least 2 more years.  I would hate to blowup the program before the likes of Hauser/Howard/Sacar/John/Cain/Elliot are upperclassman. 

Floorslapper

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2018, 11:56:21 AM »
Buzz Williams last year avg 71
Wojo Year 1 avg rating 112
Wojo Year 2 avg rating 98
Wojo Year 3 avg rating 37
Wojo Year 4 avg rating 52


I expect next year in the teens, 20's at worse.  We lost a lot of experience and talent from last year, played a tougher schedule this season.  Expected we would take a slight backward move, but future is bright and starts next season.

Who here would be willing to wager $100 on MU finishing next season rated 29th overall or better in final Pomeroy?

Galway Eagle

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2018, 11:59:21 AM »
I see that.  They just weren't muscular enough this year.  Weight room.

What freshmen are?
Maigh Eo for Sam

DienerTime34

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2018, 12:01:59 PM »
If we don't make the NCAAs in 2018-2019, I will personally roll out the red carpet welcoming Nate Oats as the next MU coach.

MilWarrior

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2018, 12:24:29 PM »

Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2018, 12:45:46 PM »
I see that.  They just weren't muscular enough this year.  Weight room.

Todd built our guards for nearly all of the BEast run -- including our 'football team' under Buzz.  Curious what changed - something about the players builds coming in or a change in direction on what he is being asked to do.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2018, 12:48:16 PM »
Theo

So you've got one instance in how many?
Maigh Eo for Sam

willie warrior

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2018, 12:50:26 PM »
What I like about Wojo:
Recruits well
Runs a clean program (as far as we know)
Represents Marquette well
Offensive genius
Willing to try things defensively.   Zone, 3/4 trap, trapping in the zone

What I don't like about Wojo:
Doesn't recruit multidimensional, multiple positional players.   i.e. Switchables.  Cain and Elliott are steps in the right direction.
I don't like how he uses his big man on high pick and rolls.    Don't have him defending guards in space.    Get his butt back to the lane and make your guards defend. 
Hasn't had a complete roster in 4 years.    Lack of players = lack of options.    Can't bench players who aren't putting forth effort is there is no one to replace them with. 
Not an alchemist/magician.    Has not made his teams more than the sum of their products.    Though he came closer to that this year. 

I have said many times I think the key to Wojo's success is his ability to grow beyond his Duke roots.    To build on and adapt it to Marquette.    He has yet to instill the fire that he played with to his players.      I see flashes, but not consistency.   But I still see the roadmap.    I can still see the foundation he is laying.   He is still a young man and can still learn and grow.   I am still on board, but not 100% sold.
Sorry, saying Wojo is an offensive genius don't make it so. That is hogwash, and that is so.
I thought you were dead. Willie lives rent free in Reekers mind.

lurch91

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2018, 12:54:11 PM »
Todd built our guards for nearly all of the BEast run -- including our 'football team' under Buzz.  Curious what changed - something about the players builds coming in or a change in direction on what he is being asked to do.

Some bodies take more time to mature. You can chain someone to the weight room, make them eat 1,000g of protein a day and they wont necessarily look like Wolverine/Hulk after 6 months.

Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Wojo, 4 years in
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2018, 01:04:48 PM »
Some bodies take more time to mature. You can chain someone to the weight room, make them eat 1,000g of protein a day and they wont necessarily look like Wolverine/Hulk after 6 months.

I think you may have mis-interpreted what I am saying.  Of course the bodies do mature differently - but that is the same as when we brought in Vander, Jamil, Lazar, Dom and others.  That has always been a factor.  So things that could have changed are - our guards are on average younger, wojo is bringing in smaller players, wojo is stressing different things than adding bulk, etc.

What we do know is our strength and condition coach has a track record of building big east ready guards.


 

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