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Author Topic: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition  (Read 2106 times)

warriorchick

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2018, 09:30:33 AM »
Why is that a reason why universal secondary education would work in some places but not the U.S.?

And B.S. on the cost. It would be ~$35 billion to achieve in the United States. We gave the military a $75billion annual increase while cutting taxes without batting an eye.

You are assuming that in these countries anyone who want to go to college can do so.  That's not true.  In most, if not all of them, you are put at a career track in primary school.  Imagine what would happen in the U.S. if they started telling people that, sorry, college was not an option for their third grader and he or she is  going into the skilled trade track.

Have some patience, FFS.

tower912

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2018, 09:40:16 AM »
Or, as a third grader, you start getting structure and direction toward a career where you will have a job, guaranteed training, guaranteed health care, and guaranteed pension.   While getting 6 weeks of vacation and a year of maternity/paternity leave.   Even if you are a ditch digger.   Not that there is anything wrong with digging ditches.
Real Warriors don't whine.

ATL MU Warrior

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2018, 09:47:24 AM »
You are assuming that in these countries anyone who want to go to college can do so.  That's not true.  In most, if not all of them, you are put at a career track in primary school.  Imagine what would happen in the U.S. if they started telling people that, sorry, college was not an option for their third grader and he or she is  going into the skilled trade track.
That's o.k.  According to Lenny, all kids borne of stupid parents are going to be stupid anyway so based on their parents intelligence we can just place them in career tracks they can be successful in.

People with high IQs usually procreate with other people with high IQs. Same with middle and low. They tend to produce children with similar ability. I never went to camp, took music lessons, had a tutor or had access to a library growing up. There were 50+ kids in my classrooms throughout grammar school and I doubt most of the nuns who taught me had college degrees (they were "imported" from Lithuania). My parents loved and encouraged me, to be sure, but the biggest advantage/head start they gave me was their genes.

Pakuni

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2018, 09:51:27 AM »
Again, what does that mean in context of providing education? Countries of sameness? Can you guys just say what you mean?

I think we all know what they mean.

Pakuni

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2018, 09:52:16 AM »
A rich country of 10 million blonde people cannot be a model for a country of 325 million people of many background and issues, both current and historical.

It's like Pakuni saying that the entire country should mimic successful things that the rich white suburbs do.  The Scandinavian countries of Europe are their equivalent of rich white suburbs.

I said this when?
Could you explain for us why race matters when it comes to paying for college education?

forgetful

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2018, 09:52:45 AM »
I thought you were the expert on education that cannot tell us all the secret inside information that makes us idiots unqualified to discuss this subject.

Because after you embarrassed yourself suggests that poor kids lack intent access (even though about 97% of those over 13 have access to it), and they cannot even get a textbook, now you perpetuate the myth of ACT/SAT strategy classes matter.


You do realize it is pretty hard to be poor in this country.  You have to try.

Everyone that is poor has a reason, drugs, mental problems, don't speak English, etc.

Poor, for a family of four is $25k

https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/federal-poverty-level-FPL/

13.5% of the population is poor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States


I'll bottom line it for you ...

Poor kids are at a disadvantage to rich kids because many poor kids have sh!theads parents.  As they reason they are poor is the parents are sh!theads.

No amount of money to public schools and "resources" can offset sh!theads parents.

Never embarrassed myself, I provided factual information that you refuse to accept.  The only embarrassing thing was ever trying to engage in a rational conversation with a sh!thead like you.

Your above statements are ill-informed, vile, and wrong.  I'm actually ashamed that some of the things you said were even posted on here. But unfortunately you are so clueless and unwilling to learn that there is no point is discussing anything with you. 

Eldon

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2018, 09:52:53 AM »
For all of you Euro fans, I have a serious question: Have any of you ever been to a European university?

If you have, you would realize that the American college experience is completely different from the European college experience--apples and oranges.

Furthermore, European universities are generally highly selective.  So while it is indeed true that tuition is $0, it is also true that it is difficult to get in.  If Wisconsin were a European country, the only universities would be UW-Madison, Marquette, and UW-Milwaukee, all of which would likely be highly selective.  There is no European equivalent to, say, UW-Parkside, which is an "inclusive admit" school where virtually anyone is accepted.

If there is anything to be envied about Europe with respect to education, it is their secondary educational framework.  Students go to school longer during the day, have fewer gaps in the school year, etc.  They often need to pass a test just to graduate high school.  Some schools even have "junior colleges" attached to the schools where students can spend an additional two years beyond high school learning a trade.  (I know for a fact that the latter two points apply to France, but I believe that they also apply to various other Euro countries).

warriorchick

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2018, 09:56:37 AM »
Or, as a third grader, you start getting structure and direction toward a career where you will have a job, guaranteed training, guaranteed health care, and guaranteed pension.   While getting 6 weeks of vacation and a year of maternity/paternity leave.   Even if you are a ditch digger.   Not that there is anything wrong with digging ditches.

Not if you ask most Americans.  It would take a huge cultural shift that I don't see happening. Self-determination is a pillar of American life.  Being told you can't go to college isn't exactly in line with that.

Rich folks whose kids were assigned the ditch-digging track would tie up the courts.

And not matter what criteria was used to track, it will be called racist, reverse-racist, sexist, classist, etc.

Have some patience, FFS.

Pakuni

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2018, 10:11:47 AM »
Not if you ask most Americans.  It would take a huge cultural shift that I don't see happening. Self-determination is a pillar of American life.  Being told you can't go to college isn't exactly in line with that.

Rich folks whose kids were assigned the ditch-digging track would tie up the courts.

And not matter what criteria was used to track, it will be called racist, reverse-racist, sexist, classist, etc.

Doesn't have to be either or. There are hundreds (thousands?) of private universities and colleges in the U.S. that would be free to accept students as they see fit and charge as they wish, If rich folks' kid doesn't qualify for public funding at a public school, he or she is free to pay the private sector for a degree.

warriorchick

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2018, 10:15:28 AM »
Doesn't have to be either or. There are hundreds (thousands?) of private universities and colleges in the U.S. that would be free to accept students as they see fit and charge as they wish, If rich folks' kid doesn't qualify for public funding at a public school, he or she is free to pay the private sector for a degree.

What about the poor folks?  My guess is that these other countries don't provide a lot of financial aid for the private universities.
Have some patience, FFS.

tower912

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2018, 10:17:40 AM »
Not if you ask most Americans.  It would take a huge cultural shift that I don't see happening. Self-determination is a pillar of American life.  Being told you can't go to college isn't exactly in line with that.

Rich folks whose kids were assigned the ditch-digging track would tie up the courts.

And not matter what criteria was used to track, it will be called racist, reverse-racist, sexist, classist, etc.
I recognize the paradigm shift required of the American ethos to go to that kind of system.   The same kind that would be willing to pay the higher taxes in exchange for more government support.   Or getting rid of guns.   Or culturally embracing green energy.   It isn't likely any time soon.   But there are functioning models out there.
Real Warriors don't whine.

Ellenson Family Reunion

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2018, 10:18:48 AM »
I think we all know what they mean.

I know. It's f*cking disgusting.

Pakuni

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2018, 10:22:22 AM »
What about the poor folks?  My guess is that these other countries don't provide a lot of financial aid for the private universities.

So now your argument against better public funding for higher education is that it's unfair to poor folks?

The only thing that would change for poor folks is that higher education would be far easier to attain without massive debt for those who qualify. Those who don't qualify shouldn't be going to university anyhow (just like rich kids who don't qualify shouldn't be going ... but they're free to waste their money as they see fit).
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 10:26:28 AM by Pakuni »

Ellenson Family Reunion

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2018, 10:25:07 AM »
You are assuming that in these countries anyone who want to go to college can do so.  That's not true.  In most, if not all of them, you are put at a career track in primary school.  Imagine what would happen in the U.S. if they started telling people that, sorry, college was not an option for their third grader and he or she is  going into the skilled trade track.

That's not a good idea, and it's not a necessary condition to providing free secondary education. Straw man.

Pakuni

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2018, 10:25:59 AM »
People with high IQs usually procreate with other people with high IQs. Same with middle and low. They tend to produce children with similar ability. I never went to camp, took music lessons, had a tutor or had access to a library growing up. There were 50+ kids in my classrooms throughout grammar school and I doubt most of the nuns who taught me had college degrees (they were "imported" from Lithuania). My parents loved and encouraged me, to be sure, but the biggest advantage/head start they gave me was their genes.

Hooray for eugenics.

Ellenson Family Reunion

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #65 on: February 13, 2018, 10:29:00 AM »
A rich country of 10 million blonde people cannot be a model for a country of 325 million people of many background and issues, both current and historical.

It's like Pakuni saying that the entire country should mimic successful things that the rich white suburbs do.  The Scandinavian countries of Europe are their equivalent of rich white suburbs.

Repeat this again slowly to yourself. Say it a few times. Reflect on how it makes you sound, and what it means to say something like that in the context of how to allocate a resource like education. Or anything, really.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2018, 10:29:14 AM »
I think we all know what they mean.

Please stop with the holier than thou bullst$t. I LOVE the fact that the USA is a multi cultural melting pot. It makes us better/stronger in many ways. It also means that simple, one size fits all solutions don't fit us the way they would a country that has a simple, one size fits all culture. Being intentionally myopic and then claiming moral superiority because of it doesn't advance the ball even a little.

warriorchick

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #67 on: February 13, 2018, 10:30:18 AM »
That's not a good idea, and it's not a necessary condition to providing free secondary education. Straw man.

My point is that no country provides secondary education of every student's choice for free.

And I don't think any country should.  There are already plenty of students in college that for a variety of reasons have no business being there. 
Have some patience, FFS.

Ellenson Family Reunion

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #68 on: February 13, 2018, 10:33:25 AM »
Please stop with the holier than thou bullst$t. I LOVE the fact that the USA is a multi cultural melting pot. It makes us better/stronger in many ways. It also means that simple, one size fits all solutions don't fit us the way they would a country that has a simple, one size fits all culture. Being intentionally myopic and then claiming moral superiority because of it doesn't advance the ball even a little.

This does not make any sense to me. Can you expound upon that?

Ellenson Family Reunion

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #69 on: February 13, 2018, 10:38:49 AM »
My point is that no country provides secondary education of every student's choice for free.

And I don't think any country should.  There are already plenty of students in college that for a variety of reasons have no business being there.

It's not like admissions standards would have to change in order for the tuition bill to change. You would still have to get in to a public university, exactly like you have to now. I just don't buy this argument.

Waldo Jeffers

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #70 on: February 13, 2018, 10:46:39 AM »
You do realize it is pretty hard to be poor in this country.  You have to try.

Everyone that is poor has a reason, drugs, mental problems, don't speak English, etc.


once again you prove you are a moron

Ellenson Family Reunion

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #71 on: February 13, 2018, 10:58:40 AM »
once again you prove you are a moron

Unreal

warriorchick

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2018, 11:01:06 AM »
It's not like admissions standards would have to change in order for the tuition bill to change. You would still have to get in to a public university, exactly like you have to now. I just don't buy this argument.

Of course admission standards would change.  There would be a finite number of slots in said schools.  The schools would be flooded by kids who would otherwise be going to private universities because, hey, free tuition.  How many Marquette students from Wisconsin would still be enrolled there if they could go to Madison for free? Not zero, but far less than there is now. That makes admissions pool much greater, and as a result, the school would be more selective.
Have some patience, FFS.

Ellenson Family Reunion

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #73 on: February 13, 2018, 11:38:44 AM »
Of course admission standards would change.  There would be a finite number of slots in said schools.  The schools would be flooded by kids who would otherwise be going to private universities because, hey, free tuition.  How many Marquette students from Wisconsin would still be enrolled there if they could go to Madison for free? Not zero, but far less than there is now. That makes admissions pool much greater, and as a result, the school would be more selective.

On the margins, sure it would become more competitive. It probably also means that some private colleges will go down in stature or even cease to exist. Maybe even Marquette! C'est la vie.

But that's the complete opposite of your concern, which was that too many people that shouldn't be in college are already in college.

Pakuni

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #74 on: February 13, 2018, 11:51:23 AM »
Please stop with the holier than thou bullst$t. I LOVE the fact that the USA is a multi cultural melting pot. It makes us better/stronger in many ways. It also means that simple, one size fits all solutions don't fit us the way they would a country that has a simple, one size fits all culture. Being intentionally myopic and then claiming moral superiority because of it doesn't advance the ball even a little.

1. I never claimed moral superiority. If you're feeling morally inferior because you believe what works in a predominantly white country could never work in one with brown people, that's on you.
2. Claiming that some countries are "simple, one size fits all" cultures because of the color of the people's skin is pretty ignorant.
3. Other things that don't advance the ball ... genetic determinism.