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Author Topic: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition  (Read 6328 times)

forgetful

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2018, 01:21:27 PM »
Okay are you telling me middle class families don't have access to internet. Come on now.

I put a list of items:  Internet, tutors, etc.  You are cherry picking internet from my list.

Middle class families making a total of under $56k do not have access to tutors and other resources the people they are competing against do have access to.

About 18% of households do not even have a computer.  Over 20% do not have any internet.

The majority of american households cannot afford tutors, or ACT/SAT strategy classes/books/training. 

Getting into Universities like UW is highly competitive, unequal access to resources puts many children at an extreme disadvantage. 

Benny B

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2018, 02:09:49 PM »
I put a list of items:  Internet, tutors, etc.  You are cherry picking internet from my list.

Middle class families making a total of under $56k do not have access to tutors and other resources the people they are competing against do have access to.

About 18% of households do not even have a computer.  Over 20% do not have any internet.

The majority of american households cannot afford tutors, or ACT/SAT strategy classes/books/training. 

Getting into Universities like UW is highly competitive, unequal access to resources puts many children at an extreme disadvantage.

This is why I have a major problem with these "test prep" businesses... to what extent are they actually educating the kids academically as opposed to simply teaching them how to game the system with "test taking strategies."  Obviously, the rich kids have disproportionate access to these programs which I firmly believe is a manner of artificial inflation of test scores.  So even in testing, there's a poor tax being paid by otherwise hard-working, inner-city kids who are just trying to get a leg up in life who - on paper - will generally show up with lower test scores than their counterparts in the tony burbs.

But honestly, I don't know what the solution is.  You can't simple ban any sort of test preparation courses (especially to the extent that they're actually teaching something, e.g. basic vocab, math, etc., that has application outside of the test itself), and even if you did, how do you enforce it?  And you can't mandate state-wide or nation-wide test prep to level the playing field because then the suburban schools will just hire the better test prep teachers (or the businesses will shift their focus to something else to inflate scores).
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Silkk the Shaka

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2018, 04:33:44 PM »
Exactly what I said when I read that headline.  Seems illogical to me.  I don't usually get hung up on things having to be absolutely fair (except on a basketball court that my team is playing on), but this seems really unfair.  Are people going to go into their HR departments and ask for a pay cut?

Agreed. Means testing sucks! Universalism rules.

Free public college for all.
Medicare for all.
Universal basic income.

We'd be an infinitely better society with those 3 things.

Pakuni

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2018, 04:42:12 PM »
Agreed. Means testing sucks! Universalism rules.

Free public college for all.
Medicare for all.
Universal basic income.

We'd be an infinitely better society with those 3 things.

Free college and universal healthcare has definitely ruined Germany, Finland and Sweden.
Those are the real sh-tholes.

Silkk the Shaka

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2018, 05:14:15 PM »
Free college and universal healthcare has definitely ruined Germany, Finland and Sweden.
Those are the real sh-tholes.

I couldn't imagine the horror of avoiding crippling debt for decades

jesmu84

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2018, 05:14:22 PM »
Agreed. Means testing sucks! Universalism rules.

Free public college for all.
Medicare for all.
Universal basic income.

We'd be an infinitely better society with those 3 things.

Free college for all? But that wouldn't be fair. What about all those people who paid their own way!

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2018, 06:45:35 PM »
Free college for all? But that wouldn't be fair. What about all those people who paid their own way!
They can refund me, adjusted for inflation.
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

mu_hilltopper

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2018, 07:22:21 PM »
TN, OR, RI, CA, KY, AR have a collection of free/1/2 year community/college type programs.

NY state is phasing in free tuition for incomes under $125k at SUNY and CUNY.

https://www.ny.gov/programs/tuition-free-degree-program-excelsior-scholarship

It'll be interesting what happens in NY .. I wonder if it's swamped.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2018, 07:40:42 PM »

I'm telling you that there is a very strong correlation between family income and standardized test scores.  So yes, the money that we are pouring into public schools isn't leveling the playing field.  It's much more complex than "money."

Correct!

The single best indicator for standardized test scores is parents educational achievement and that is strongly corrected with their income.

And it is not because rich parents pay for practice classes.  Rather the wealthier the parents more likely reached high levels of education themselves (say graduated from a very selective school or a post-graduate degree) and they demand/expect their kids achieve at least their levels of education. 

Poor parents do the same, they demand of their kids they achieve at least their level of education.  So, if that is a high school, technical or associate degree, they are not demanding/expecting their kids to apply to ivy league schools like kids with two parents with post-graduate degrees from selective schools.

-----

Why do you think so many professional athletes have parent(s) that were athletes?  Because if you are a typical family, you're just happy to see your kids go out for sports and exercise and have fun.  You put no more demands on them than that.

But if your Jalen Brunson, and your dad is Rick Brunson, it is not about having fun and exercise.  He demands more of his son.  He demands a pro career.

Parents also expect their kids to at least reach their level of athletic achievement.  Since most have no real athletic achievement, they don't expect more than that out of their kids.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 07:47:46 PM by Tugg Speedman »

GGGG

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2018, 07:47:34 PM »
Correct!

The single best indicator for standardized test scores is parents educational achievement and that is strongly corrected with their income.

And it is not because rich parents pay for practice classes.  Rather the wealthier the parents more likely reached high levels of education themselves (say graduated from a very selective school or a post-graduate degree) and they demand/expect their kids achieve at least their levels of education. 

Poor parents do the same, they demand of their kids they achieve at least their level of education.  So, if that is a high school, technical or associate degree, they are not demanding/expecting their kids to apply to ivy league schools like kids with two parents with post-graduate degrees from selective schools.


A lot of grand speculation there.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2018, 10:55:11 PM »

Hards Alumni

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Pakuni

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2018, 11:15:36 PM »
You're playing dumb ...


How to predict a student’s SAT score: Look at the parents’ tax return
http://www.danpink.com/2012/02/how-to-predict-a-students-sat-score-look-at-the-parents-tax-return/

These four charts show how the SAT favors rich, educated families
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/03/05/these-four-charts-show-how-the-sat-favors-the-rich-educated-families/?utm_term=.a0ea79e27c3e

How Family Background Influences Student Achievement
http://educationnext.org/how-family-background-influences-student-achievement/

The speculation is your claim that kids of wealthier parents do better simply because their parents demand more, as opposed to a host of other factors, many of which are cited in the stories you linked.
These other factors include access to better schools, more time for parental involvement and access to educational resources outside school (books at home, computers, tutors, libraries, camps, music lessons, etc.).



Tugg Speedman

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2018, 11:27:04 PM »
The speculation is your claim that kids of wealthier parents do better simply because their parents demand more, as opposed to a host of other factors, many of which are cited in the stories you linked.
These other factors include access to better schools, more time for parental involvement and access to educational resources outside school (books at home, computers, tutors, libraries, camps, music lessons, etc.).

Is that all part of "demanding more?"

Besides Freakonomics thinks everything you believe matters actually does not

https://datascience.berkeley.edu/freakonomics-data-science/

data patterns have shown that factors correlated with a child’s test scores include having highly educated parents, a high socioeconomic status, English spoken at home, parents who are involved in the PTA, and a house full of books. Makes sense, right?

On the flip side, however, factors such as a family being “intact,” having parents who read to the child nearly every day or regularly take him or her to museums, having a mother stay at home until the child reaches kindergarten, or even frequent television viewing has been shown to have no impact on a child’s eventual test scores.



I'm telling you that there is a very strong correlation between family income and standardized test scores.  So yes, the money that we are pouring into public schools isn't leveling the playing field.  It's much more complex than "money."

Everything you noted (like music lessons) are available in nearly all public schools.  As noted by Sultan, it is not about a lack of money or resources, it is about the priorities set by the parents (more complex).  The wealthier they are the bigger the priority is toward education.

« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 11:52:10 PM by Tugg Speedman »

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2018, 11:45:26 PM »
I put a list of items:  Internet, tutors, etc.  You are cherry picking internet from my list.

Middle class families making a total of under $56k do not have access to tutors and other resources the people they are competing against do have access to.

About 18% of households do not even have a computer.  Over 20% do not have any internet.

The majority of american households cannot afford tutors, or ACT/SAT strategy classes/books/training. 

Getting into Universities like UW is highly competitive, unequal access to resources puts many children at an extreme disadvantage.

I thought you were the expert on education that cannot tell us all the secret inside information that makes us idiots unqualified to discuss this subject.

Because after you embarrassed yourself suggests that poor kids lack intent access (even though about 97% of those over 13 have access to it), and they cannot even get a textbook, now you perpetuate the myth of ACT/SAT strategy classes matter.

Intensive ACT test prep during class leads to lower scores; students don’t connect grades, study habits to exam scores
https://news.uchicago.edu/article/2008/05/27/intensive-act-test-prep-during-class-leads-lower-scores-students-don-t-connect-gr

Yes, practice and get "the hang of it" ... but you can do that for the cost of electricity at home on numerous websites.  You do not need a $1,000 Kaplan class.

The $1,000 Kaplan course only tells you the priority the parents set as they are willing to pay it.  the $1,000 Kaplan class means the parents make the kids leave the house (and the TV, phone, net) and focus on practicing the test.
A poor parent can do the same at the kitchen table on a second-hand kindle they bought for $50 (remember 97% of the country has intent access.

Kaplan does not have "the secret" they give only to rich kids.


« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 11:49:30 PM by Tugg Speedman »

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2018, 11:54:46 PM »
I'll bottom line it for you ...

Poor kids are at a disadvantage to rich kids because many poor kids have sh!theads parents.  As they reason they are poor is the parents are sh!theads.

No amount of money to public schools and "resources" can offset sh!theads parents.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2018, 07:45:24 AM »
The speculation is your claim that kids of wealthier parents do better simply because their parents demand more, as opposed to a host of other factors, many of which are cited in the stories you linked.
These other factors include access to better schools, more time for parental involvement and access to educational resources outside school (books at home, computers, tutors, libraries, camps, music lessons, etc.).

People with high IQs usually procreate with other people with high IQs. Same with middle and low. They tend to produce children with similar ability. I never went to camp, took music lessons, had a tutor or had access to a library growing up. There were 50+ kids in my classrooms throughout grammar school and I doubt most of the nuns who taught me had college degrees (they were "imported" from Lithuania). My parents loved and encouraged me, to be sure, but the biggest advantage/head start they gave me was their genes.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2018, 07:53:13 AM »
Free college and universal healthcare has definitely ruined Germany, Finland and Sweden.
Those are the real sh-tholes.

If you're OK with only the gifted going to college (see Germany) maybe it's doable in the USA. Finland and Norway are small, homogeneous cultures - any comp to the US is specious.

GGGG

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2018, 08:23:59 AM »
I'll bottom line it for you ...

Poor kids are at a disadvantage to rich kids because many poor kids have sh!theads parents.  As they reason they are poor is the parents are sh!theads.

No amount of money to public schools and "resources" can offset sh!theads parents.


Right.  The only reason people are poor is because they are sh!theads.

You learned a lot at Marquette I see.

Silkk the Shaka

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2018, 08:25:12 AM »
If you're OK with only the gifted going to college (see Germany) maybe it's doable in the USA. Finland and Norway are small, homogeneous cultures - any comp to the US is specious.

Why is that a reason why universal secondary education would work in some places but not the U.S.?

And B.S. on the cost. It would be ~$35 billion to achieve in the United States. We gave the military a $75billion annual increase while cutting taxes without batting an eye.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2018, 08:28:58 AM »
If you're OK with only the gifted going to college (see Germany) maybe it's doable in the USA. Finland and Norway are small, homogeneous cultures - any comp to the US is specious.

+1 about this tied saw of comparing the US to countries of sameness with less than 10 million in population.

Regarding mimicking successful idea, by most metrics homeschoolers are more successful than kids that go to public schools.  Maybe we should close all public schools for homeschooling?

Oh wait, you say, homeschoolers are self-selected which is why they do better.  Yes, you are correct, which makes them like the elite/talented that go to college in Germany.

College is cheap or free in Europe but it hard to qualify.  Harvard is the same way.  They will not charge if a family making less than $75k.  But you have to get in first.

Here we want it to be free and accessible to all.  Cannot have both.  Can have it accessible to all, and then the product is crap.  Or you can have it free and the vast majority will never get in.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2018, 08:29:56 AM »

Right.  The only reason people are poor is because they are sh!theads.

You learned a lot at Marquette I see.

You do realize it is pretty hard to be poor in this country.  You have to try.

Everyone that is poor has a reason, drugs, mental problems, don't speak English, etc.

Poor, for a family of four is $25k

https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/federal-poverty-level-FPL/

13.5% of the population is poor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States

« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 08:34:11 AM by Tugg Speedman »

Silkk the Shaka

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2018, 08:47:53 AM »
+1 about this tied saw of comparing the US to countries of sameness with less than 10 million in population.

Regarding mimicking successful idea, by most metrics homeschoolers are more successful than kids that go to public schools.  Maybe we should close all public schools for homeschooling?

Oh wait, you say, homeschoolers are self-selected which is why they do better.  Yes, you are correct, which makes them like the elite/talented that go to college in Germany.

College is cheap or free in Europe but it hard to qualify.  Harvard is the same way.  They will not charge if a family making less than $75k.  But you have to get in first.

Here we want it to be free and accessible to all.  Cannot have both.  Can have it accessible to all, and then the product is crap.  Or you can have it free and the vast majority will never get in.

Again, what does that mean in context of providing education? Countries of sameness? Can you guys just say what you mean?

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2018, 09:15:27 AM »
Again, what does that mean in context of providing education? Countries of sameness? Can you guys just say what you mean?

A rich country of 10 million blonde people cannot be a model for a country of 325 million people of many background and issues, both current and historical.

It's like Pakuni saying that the entire country should mimic successful things that the rich white suburbs do.  The Scandinavian countries of Europe are their equivalent of rich white suburbs.

GGGG

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Re: Good for UW-Madison - free tuition
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2018, 09:20:18 AM »
The only European countries of any size that are wealthier or have higher income than the United States on a per capita basis are Norway and Switzerland. 

 

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