Dilemma ... A little help?

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Probably a little late.  But one route would be to thank them for the decorations, and mention that it was very kind of them to go with a sports theme as you are not religious and would usually not want any Christmas themed decorations.

It would simultaneously thank them, make it seem like they were being thoughtful of your religious stance (even though they were actually unaware), but also let them know where you stand so there are not issues down the road.

This has definitely been my favorite option so far. Seems like everyone wins while still addressing the problem at hand.

Thought I'm probably not the person to ask about neighbor relations seeing as I've only lived in condos/apartments my entire life.

[Jay Bee]

Thought I'm probably not the person to ask about neighbor relations seeing as I've only lived in condos/apartments my entire life.

You don’t have neighbors in apts/condos?

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Maybe she's really into practical jokes.  She realized that in all these years of being neighbors, not once has Mike mentioned Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  So she's suspicious and decides to play a friendly practical joke to say "I'm onto you." What better way than to hang some Christmas ornaments in the yard of her non-Christian neighbor.  But she uses secular ornaments so as not to offend and knows Mike is a Panthers fan, since he's mentioned that more than Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Now she's sitting back and waiting for Mike to return the favor with his own practical joke.  A way to say, "I know what you did.". But you gotta up the ante.  So when she heads off to Sunday Mass, break into her house, steal her best leather bound bible, make it into a belt, wrap it up, and stick it under the Christmas tree.  She opens the gift on Christmas morning and voila! she now owns her very own bible belt.

As for my serious advice, I was thinking something along the lines of forgetful's advice. A polite thanks but no thanks.

[warriorchick]

Turnabout is fair play.

You need to create a Panthers-themed Kinara and put that in their yard:


 

[Spotcheck Billy]

Well, at least it's not a burning cross.

what good what that be to an atheist?

[Dr. Blackheart]

I am with TAMU and JayBee...a little weird that neighbors start decorating your yard. Appeasement is not an option. Blow up Easter Bunnies will be next.

I say Santa's sleigh visits overnight.

[MU82]

Well, it's done.

As I said, I followed my wife's lead. She texted Debi this morning say that while we really appreciated her obvious act of kindness, we do not celebrate Christmas and would rather not have ornaments on our tree. She mentioned our Jewish background but said we don't celebrate Jewish holidays, either. (As you can see, Mrs. 82 is still uncomfortable publicly acknowledging she's an atheist; I said I'd prefer to leave Jewishness out of it, but I deferred to her because I wanted her to be comfortable.) She said we value them as neighbors and friends, and that we hope they understand.

Debi responded that she knows we're Panthers fans and she was inspired by Sunday's game to put the ornaments in our tree. But she said she fully understands and, "of course we value you as neighbors and friends, too." She says she'll remove the ornaments when she's done with work.

I thank all Scoopers, both the serious folks and the more "hilarious" ones, for helping me (and my wife) think this through.

[Lennys Tap]

Did you ever consider that due to the nature of the ornaments this was meant as a celebration of the Carolina Panthers and not the birth of Jesus? After all, a tree decorated with images of Newtons, Riveras and sleek black cats isn't exactly what I would call in your face religiosity. My guess is they knew you shared (with them) fandom to a particular football team and wanted to have some fun with it - nothing more, nothing less. If you wanted to have a discussion about your atheism with neighbors this might provide an easy segue - otherwise, I think you're being a bit too sensitive.

[MU82]

Did you ever consider that due to the nature of the ornaments this was meant as a celebration of the Carolina Panthers and not the birth of Jesus? After all, a tree decorated with images of Newtons, Riveras and sleek black cats isn't exactly what I would call in your face religiosity. My guess is they knew you shared (with them) fandom to a particular football team and wanted to have some fun with it - nothing more, nothing less. If you wanted to have a discussion about your atheism with neighbors about your atheism this might provide an easy segue - otherwise, I think you're being a bit too sensitive.

We did consider it.

We still didn't want Christmas ornaments - which they unmistakenly are - in the tree that sits 20 feet in front of our door.

I don't feel the neighbor did anything with "bad intent." We're not angry about it. We didn't rip the down the ornaments, put them in a box and leave them on the neighbor's porch.

We simple don't want the ornaments in our tree. I haven't heard one reason it's a bad thing for atheists to not want people coming into their yard and putting Christmas ornaments in their tree.

I mean, I could go with all kinds of analogies, but I don't see why it's necessary. The more my wife and I discussed it, the simpler it became: We didn't want the ornaments in our tree.

[T-Bone]

Option #2 in due time.  They'll notice that you don't put up a tree in the window for all to see or decorate with elves humping reindeer soon enough. 

When you do, make a point to mention something about your value system/philosophy.  I think there's a lot of folk that believe atheists to have no values or amoral. 

And Panthers fan???  Jebus H Crackers!

[warriorchick]

And Panthers fan???  Jebus H Crackers!

That's way more offensive than being an atheist.

[MerrittsMustache]

We did consider it.

We still didn't want Christmas ornaments - which they unmistakenly are - in the tree that sits 20 feet in front of our door.

I don't feel the neighbor did anything with "bad intent." We're not angry about it. We didn't rip the down the ornaments, put them in a box and leave them on the neighbor's porch.

We simple don't want the ornaments in our tree. I haven't heard one reason it's a bad thing for atheists to not want people coming into their yard and putting Christmas ornaments in their tree.

I mean, I could go with all kinds of analogies, but I don't see why it's necessary. The more my wife and I discussed it, the simpler it became: We didn't want the ornaments in our tree.

With all due respect...Why does it matter so much? Why are you so adamant about not having a few Panthers decorations on your tree? Are you THAT opposed to the concept of Christmas? Does the idea of God offend you in some great capacity? Or is it a matter of not wanting clutter in your yard?

Again, I mean no disrespect. I'm genuinely curious.

[mu03eng]

With all due respect...Why does it matter so much? Why are you so adamant about not having a few Panthers decorations on your tree? Are you THAT opposed to the concept of Christmas? Does the idea of God offend you in some great capacity? Or is it a matter of not wanting clutter in your yard?

Again, I mean no disrespect. I'm genuinely curious.

Why does it matter? This literally is invading his personal space (his own property) the reasons don't matter.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Did you ever consider that due to the nature of the ornaments this was meant as a celebration of the Carolina Panthers and not the birth of Jesus? After all, a tree decorated with images of Newtons, Riveras and sleek black cats isn't exactly what I would call in your face religiosity. My guess is they knew you shared (with them) fandom to a particular football team and wanted to have some fun with it - nothing more, nothing less. If you wanted to have a discussion about your atheism with neighbors this might provide an easy segue - otherwise, I think you're being a bit too sensitive.

All kidding aside, and Lenny you just moved to the South (but I suspect in a Northern Enclave), but this incident isn't unusual. Luckily, in this case, it was in fun and good natured. Living in the Bible Belt is unusual, to say the least. Mike and his wife handled it in the right way.

I have a good friend, raised in the rural South. Highly educated, liberal. When she moved north, she was stunned to learn their are other religions or beliefs or lifestyles than born-again Christians. Diversity was a culture shock for her, one that she has fully embraced.

[MerrittsMustache]

Why does it matter? This literally is invading his personal space (his own property) the reasons don't matter.

I don't want to speak for MU82, but since he brought up being atheist and not celebrating Christmas, it seems to me that the issue was less about "invading his personal space" and more about religious decorations on his property.

[tower912]

Way to stay classy, Mike. 

[mu03eng]

I don't want to speak for MU82, but since he brought up being atheist and not celebrating Christmas, it seems to me that the issue was less about "invading his personal space" and more about religious decorations on his property.

Sure, but what if he hated the Panthers? He could be just as "disgruntled", the reason for the discomfort is somewhat immaterial...it's the presumption by the neighbors that MU82's position aligns with their own and that they can invade their personal space with that presumption.

[MU82]

With all due respect...Why does it matter so much? Why are you so adamant about not having a few Panthers decorations on your tree? Are you THAT opposed to the concept of Christmas? Does the idea of God offend you in some great capacity? Or is it a matter of not wanting clutter in your yard?

Again, I mean no disrespect. I'm genuinely curious.

MM, I take this as an opportunity to get to know each other better, so I do not feel disrespected by you.

The "idea of God" doesn't offend me. I simply do not believe that God is real. I am not opposed to "the concept of Christmas." I simply do not want the concept of Christmas forced upon me.

My wife and I joke all the time about the alleged "war against Christmas" because we think it's the exact opposite. Christmas is everywhere, all the time, from Nov. 1 on. It's in everybody's faces, day and night, like it or not. It's inescapable. People don't even think for a second that the person they're wishing Merry Christmas to might not be a Christian. "I'm a Christian, so this guy is gonna hear about Christmas from me." I'm not a jerk, so I smile and respond, "Thanks, same to you." It doesn't matter to me.

But my house and my yard and, as mu03 eloquently put it, my "personal space" ... those matter to me. I don't believe in either Christmas or God, and I don't want symbols of Christmas hanging in a tree that sits 20 feet in front of my door. If I had to have any ornaments, sure Panthers ornaments or Marquette ornaments are what I'd choose, but we don't want any ornaments - and THAT is what we choose.

I love Marquette, and I own lots of Marquette stuff, but I don't own a big cross that says Marquette on it, or a sweatshirt with Gesu church on it. It doesn't bother me in the least if some do, but if somebody gives me a sweatshirt with a church on it, it's getting donated to charity.

I'll flip this around, MM - again, with respect - because I also am curious.

Why are some Scoopers (perhaps even you) so adamant that my wife and I should be willing to leave Christmas decorations we didn't want in our tree? Are you THAT opposed to the concept of non-Christians choosing not to celebrate Christmas? Does the idea of atheism offend you in some great capacity?

Hey, this is always an interesting discussion. It's easier here in an anonymous interwebs setting. It's much more difficult to have, face-to-face, with friends and family.

When we told my wife's side of the family (Catholics) years ago that we were going to raise our children without religion, most of them cut off any association with her. One day, they "loved" her; the next, they wanted nothing to do with her. They're a bunch of a-holes and racists - I'm not misusing either term; they use all kinds of slurs, with their favorite being "tacos" for Mexicans - but we're the immoral ones because we choose not to believe in God. It would be funny if not so sad. This could have harmed our marriage, but my very strong wife's reaction was, "Eff 'em then!"

There are some who believe one can't be moral and decent if one doesn't include God in their lives. We obviously feel differently. There are good and bad people who call themselves Christians, good and bad people who call themselves Jewish, good and bad people who call themselves Muslim, etc ... and good and bad people who call themselves atheists. I won't speak for myself, but I haven't met many people as kind, moral, ethical, decent and big-hearted as Mrs. 82.

I try not to get high-falootin' when discussing this subject. I like talking about religion (and atheism). It's an interesting subject. I even took a class called "Theism and Atheism" at Marquette. Many folks who never thought about being atheists are genuinely curious, and I try to have calm, intelligent discussions with them. This is one of those occasions.

[4everwarriors]

Well, it's done.

As I said, I followed my wife's lead. She texted Debi this morning say that while we really appreciated her obvious act of kindness, we do not celebrate Christmas and would rather not have ornaments on our tree. She mentioned our Jewish background but said we don't celebrate Jewish holidays, either. (As you can see, Mrs. 82 is still uncomfortable publicly acknowledging she's an atheist; I said I'd prefer to leave Jewishness out of it, but I deferred to her because I wanted her to be comfortable.) She said we value them as neighbors and friends, and that we hope they understand.

Debi responded that she knows we're Panthers fans and she was inspired by Sunday's game to put the ornaments in our tree. But she said she fully understands and, "of course we value you as neighbors and friends, too." She says she'll remove the ornaments when she's done with work.

I thank all Scoopers, both the serious folks and the more "hilarious" ones, for helping me (and my wife) think this through.

Know doubt Debi will give y’all da cold tit goin’ forward, ai na?

[#UnleashSean]

You don’t have neighbors in apts/condos?

He always gets the one's that have empty apartments next to him. He has a very..... Distinct... Smell.

[Benny B]

We did consider it.

We still didn't want Christmas ornaments - which they unmistakenly are - in the tree that sits 20 feet in front of our door.

I don't feel the neighbor did anything with "bad intent." We're not angry about it. We didn't rip the down the ornaments, put them in a box and leave them on the neighbor's porch.

We simple don't want the ornaments in our tree. I haven't heard one reason it's a bad thing for atheists to not want people coming into their yard and putting Christmas ornaments in their tree.

I mean, I could go with all kinds of analogies, but I don't see why it's necessary. The more my wife and I discussed it, the simpler it became: We didn't want the ornaments in our tree.

I'm still with Lenny on this one (or maybe he's with me... whatever), but maybe it's because I'm much more familiar with Catholicism, Judaism and Agnosticism than I am with Atheists, the South or Protestants.  So I've got questions:

1) Can you post a picture?  I'd honestly like to see what these ornaments look like.

2) Hypothetically, had your neighbor put them up back in Week 1, would you still be looking at these as Christmas ornaments?

3) Presuming there's no religious iconography on or about the ornaments, what's precluding a perception that they're simply a display of Panther pride?

4) Is atheistic opposition to "Christmas Trees/Ornaments" made any more/less palatable by the fact that they're not actually a Christian tradition but rather an extension of Paganism?

5) If you were an Atheistic Bills fan, would this be offensive?


(Nice touch with the eye black)

Honestly, I would be pissed off if a neighbor did this to me, too.  But I would be too upset about the invasion of my space/property that I wouldn't even get around to giving a rat's behind about the religious part.

[MU82]

I'm still with Lenny on this one (or maybe he's with me... whatever), but maybe it's because I'm much more familiar with Catholicism, Judaism and Agnosticism than I am with Atheists, the South or Protestants.  So I've got questions:

1) Can you post a picture?  I'd honestly like to see what these ornaments look like.

2) Hypothetically, had your neighbor put them up back in Week 1, would you still be looking at these as Christmas ornaments?

3) Presuming there's no religious iconography on or about the ornaments, what's precluding a perception that they're simply a display of Panther pride?

4) Is atheistic opposition to "Christmas Trees/Ornaments" made any more/less palatable by the fact that they're not actually a Christian tradition but rather an extension of Paganism?

5) If you were an Atheistic Bills fan, would this be offensive?


(Nice touch with the eye black)

Honestly, I would be pissed off if a neighbor did this to me, too.  But I would be too upset about the invasion of my space/property that I wouldn't even get around to giving a rat's behind about the religious part.

1. Ornaments gowne. She took them down about an hour ago. No pics.

2. Yes. They were obviously Christmas ornaments. In addition to not wanting them in my tree, I'd wonder if she had a screw loose for putting up ornaments in September.

3. They might have been a display in Panther pride for the neighbors. Probably were. But these were Christmas ornaments. Period.

4. I didn't know that. And no.

5. No. I'd just think it was stupid.

And while we're being honest, Benny, I'll say this:

If they had put up one of those small NFL yard flags with a Panthers symbol on it next to the driveway, we almost surely would have been fine with it. But if they had put what we believed to be an ugly Panthers symbol, we probably would have taken it down. So was it about "invasion of space," partly.

But, honestly, this was more about us not wanting Christmas ornaments in our tree. Which I think I might have mentioned once or twice earlier.

[naginiF]

I'm still with Lenny on this one (or maybe he's with me... whatever), but maybe it's because I'm much more familiar with Catholicism, Judaism and Agnosticism than I am with Atheists, the South or Protestants.  So I've got questions:

1) Can you post a picture?  I'd honestly like to see what these ornaments look like.

2) Hypothetically, had your neighbor put them up back in Week 1, would you still be looking at these as Christmas ornaments?

3) Presuming there's no religious iconography on or about the ornaments, what's precluding a perception that they're simply a display of Panther pride?

4) Is atheistic opposition to "Christmas Trees/Ornaments" made any more/less palatable by the fact that they're not actually a Christian tradition but rather an extension of Paganism?

5) If you were an Atheistic Bills fan, would this be offensive?


(Nice touch with the eye black)

Honestly, I would be pissed off if a neighbor did this to me, too.  But I would be too upset about the invasion of my space/property that I wouldn't even get around to giving a rat's behind about the religious part.

regarding #4, as an atheist raising kids without religion in the house, we celebrate a secular christmas with trees decorated with ornaments/stockings/santas etc. (oddly enough we also have a Japanese Maple in our front yard that we do put ornaments on).  We use it as an occasion to celebrate the love and family we've had throughout the year and build our traditions around that - easy to have a christmas without Christ. 

I am with 82 in the fact that there are many examples of people pushing their religion on us - most are passive/not intentional but a lot are pretty overt.

regarding #5 - wait?  easter is about more than a magical bunny?

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

You don’t have neighbors in apts/condos?

Well, no yard or property issues rather. I would probably be a little more upset than 82 if someone came into my apartment to redecorate. Luckily haven't come across that issue yet.

[Benny B]

I am with 82 in the fact that there are many examples of people pushing their religion on us - most are passive/not intentional but a lot are pretty overt.

regarding #5 - wait?  easter is about more than a magical bunny?

I absolutely agree with not pushing religion on someone, so here's a little gift from me to you (to be clear, this is not a Christmas gift, just a friendly, secular, non-denominational-who-the-f-cares-what-season-it-is internet gift)... it's called Matthew, chapter 6, verse 5.

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men."

Just play that puppy back next time someone wants to push the Jesus on you, and then sit back and watch their heads a'splode.



And re: the bunny... you've not heard of the Hare Club for Men?