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Author Topic: Bitcoin  (Read 90598 times)

Goose

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #100 on: December 12, 2017, 07:31:36 PM »
I decided to give my luck a chance with Ripple.

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #101 on: December 12, 2017, 10:14:35 PM »
I'm not sure what you are asking.  Yes, the point of it is it is not traceable.  It is considered a virtue because it allows people to hide wealth from corrupt and immoral governments (which is why it is so popular in China).
More so it allows corrupt and immoral people to hide wealth from governments.  Not talking about the traders and speculators, I'm talking about the money launderers.
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

Hards Alumni

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #102 on: December 12, 2017, 10:38:41 PM »
More so it allows corrupt and immoral people to hide wealth from governments.  Not talking about the traders and speculators, I'm talking about the money launderers.

But you can already do that with paper money.

Eldon

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #103 on: December 12, 2017, 10:53:11 PM »
The SEC unleashes one of the most unequivocal statements ever made by a federal agency:

A number of concerns have been raised regarding the cryptocurrency and ICO markets, including that, as they are currently operating, there is substantially less investor protection than in our traditional securities markets, with correspondingly greater opportunities for fraud and manipulation. 

Investors should understand that to date no initial coin offerings have been registered with the SEC.  The SEC also has not to date approved for listing and trading any exchange-traded products (such as ETFs) holding cryptocurrencies or other assets related to cryptocurrencies.[2]  If any person today tells you otherwise, be especially wary.


(emphasis theirs.  yes, theirs)

https://www.sec.gov/news/public-statement/statement-clayton-2017-12-11

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #104 on: December 12, 2017, 11:27:49 PM »
More so it allows corrupt and immoral people to hide wealth from governments.  Not talking about the traders and speculators, I'm talking about the money launderers.

Standard Charter Bank in the UK (expert in terrorist money laundering), or JP Morgan in NY (expert in tax evasion) are far more efficient ways to launder money.  No, I'm not being funny, it's what they do.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-20669650

https://dealbreaker.com/2017/11/the-swiss-just-gave-jpmorgan-the-highest-money-laundering-honor-the-world-has-to-offer/

Money laundering has always existed and will always exist.  Have we choked off the drug and terrorist money?  Not even close.  So they have numerous ways to launder money and cryptocurrencies is one more.  Cryptos existence changes nothing on the money laundering front.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 11:29:29 PM by 1.21 Jigawatts »

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #105 on: December 12, 2017, 11:32:16 PM »
The SEC unleashes one of the most unequivocal statements ever made by a federal agency:

A number of concerns have been raised regarding the cryptocurrency and ICO markets, including that, as they are currently operating, there is substantially less investor protection than in our traditional securities markets, with correspondingly greater opportunities for fraud and manipulation. 

Investors should understand that to date no initial coin offerings have been registered with the SEC.  The SEC also has not to date approved for listing and trading any exchange-traded products (such as ETFs) holding cryptocurrencies or other assets related to cryptocurrencies.[2]  If any person today tells you otherwise, be especially wary.


(emphasis theirs.  yes, theirs)

https://www.sec.gov/news/public-statement/statement-clayton-2017-12-11

The vast majority of ICO money raises are outside the US.

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #106 on: December 13, 2017, 09:10:50 AM »
But you can already do that with paper money.
But it is traceable.  Bitcoin is not, thus the great demand for black market transactions.
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #107 on: December 13, 2017, 09:15:23 AM »
So they have numerous ways to launder money and cryptocurrencies is one more.  Cryptos existence changes nothing on the money laundering front.
Of course it does.  Yes, banks have been at best looking the other way re money laundering, and in some cases actively participating.  But it is traceable, which is how they are getting busted.  Bitcoin is not.

As I said in another thread, Manafort is kicking himself for using Wilbur Ross's Bank of Cyprus rather than Bitcoin.  The cryptos are hugely popular with the oligarchs looking to wash their illicit stacks of cash.
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

Hards Alumni

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #108 on: December 13, 2017, 09:22:43 AM »
But it is traceable.  Bitcoin is not, thus the great demand for black market transactions.

Oh, since its traceable I assume they catch everyone who is doing it.

right?

Spotcheck Billy

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #109 on: December 13, 2017, 10:42:29 AM »
One has to pay capital gains when selling bitcoin AFAIK. Isn't there some form of reporting required when selling? Assuming yes, wouldn't that make it traceable in the US?

Benny B

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #110 on: December 13, 2017, 11:50:43 AM »
But it is traceable.  Bitcoin is not, thus the great demand for black market transactions.

Actually, Bitcoin is traceable.  Some of the other cryptos are not, but I heard someone from Coindesk's board on CNBC term it "pseudonymous, not anonymous."  DOJ is monitoring everyone who is selling Bitcoin domestically, so I would think the vast majority of whatever black market Bitcoin activity might still be going on is likely taking place overseas.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #111 on: December 13, 2017, 05:15:21 PM »
Oh, since its traceable I assume they catch everyone who is doing it.

right?
Of course not.  Why would you ask that?
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #112 on: December 13, 2017, 09:41:20 PM »
I wasn't trying to be fair or unfair. I merely presented a fact and some reasonable advice for any investor.

Fact: It crashed nearly 20% yesterday.

Reasonable advice: Investors should be in tune with their risk tolerance before investing in bitcoin - or anything else.

Not sure how one could take issue with any of that.

9th 20% decline this year.  They average about 1 every 6 weeks.  Also the third since November 1, so now they average one every 2 weeks.

This is what it does.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #113 on: December 13, 2017, 10:01:07 PM »
Of course, it does.  Yes, banks have been at best looking the other way re money laundering, and in some cases actively participating.  But it is traceable, which is how they are getting busted.  Bitcoin is not.

As I said in another thread, Manafort is kicking himself for using Wilbur Ross's Bank of Cyprus rather than Bitcoin.  The cryptos are hugely popular with the oligarchs looking to wash their illicit stacks of cash.

The amount of illegally laundered money would astound you.  It is in the trillions.  All of it is run by upstanding institutions.  Bitcoin is not even a rounding error.  See the Panama And Paradise Papers. 

The entire Russian banking system loses more laundered money in a month than all bitcoin financed illegal activity in history. 

The Chinese banking system, which has the four largest banks in the world, is even more involved in illicit activity.  As noted above the Cypriot banks, which are an extension of the Russian banks, is also a corrupt system within the European Union.

There are entire legitimate law firms in Switzerland that specialize in nothing but money laundering.  Walk into any law firm on Zurich's Bahnhofstrasse with giant garbage bags full of cash and ask them how you turn it into legal cash.  The first thing they will do is get you a hotel room in the Widder Hotel and get to work.

And in the United States Wells Fargo is opening millions of accounts without anyone's knowledge and JP Morgan has paid more in fines for laundering money (including two weeks ago) than has been laundered with bitcoin.

Traceable ... that is for the small time BS for the nightly news.  The real money moves in mountains with no records.  Standard Charter Bank in London was essentially the financiers of Al Queda.  Before ISIS was over-run, they were operating oil wells in Northern Iraq producing 60,000 to 100,000 barrels a day ... all laundered through legitimate banks.  We have soldiers fighting them when a couple of accountants could have choke their money, and their organization, out of business.

The obsession with its bitcoin financed illegal activity is misplaced.  It reminds me taxi companies warning that Uber drivers were not licensed and you were taking a risk riding with them.  Technically true but no one cared and in the end, a misplaced worry.

Eldon

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #114 on: December 19, 2017, 09:40:20 AM »
74 of your Bitcoin questions answered

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/74-bitcoin-questions-answered-202033293.html

This article strikes a good balance of general and detail.


Herman Cain

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #115 on: December 19, 2017, 05:26:34 PM »
The amount of illegally laundered money would astound you.  It is in the trillions.  All of it is run by upstanding institutions.  Bitcoin is not even a rounding error.  See the Panama And Paradise Papers. 

The entire Russian banking system loses more laundered money in a month than all bitcoin financed illegal activity in history. 

The Chinese banking system, which has the four largest banks in the world, is even more involved in illicit activity.  As noted above the Cypriot banks, which are an extension of the Russian banks, is also a corrupt system within the European Union.

There are entire legitimate law firms in Switzerland that specialize in nothing but money laundering.  Walk into any law firm on Zurich's Bahnhofstrasse with giant garbage bags full of cash and ask them how you turn it into legal cash.  The first thing they will do is get you a hotel room in the Widder Hotel and get to work.

And in the United States Wells Fargo is opening millions of accounts without anyone's knowledge and JP Morgan has paid more in fines for laundering money (including two weeks ago) than has been laundered with bitcoin.

Traceable ... that is for the small time BS for the nightly news.  The real money moves in mountains with no records.  Standard Charter Bank in London was essentially the financiers of Al Queda.  Before ISIS was over-run, they were operating oil wells in Northern Iraq producing 60,000 to 100,000 barrels a day ... all laundered through legitimate banks.  We have soldiers fighting them when a couple of accountants could have choke their money, and their organization, out of business.

The obsession with its bitcoin financed illegal activity is misplaced.  It reminds me taxi companies warning that Uber drivers were not licensed and you were taking a risk riding with them.  Technically true but no one cared and in the end, a misplaced worry.
An interesting perspective on Bitcoin from Doug Kass.
https://realmoney.thestreet.com/articles/12/11/2017/sorry-ruin-surprise-bitcoin-will-collapse-2018
Winning is overrated. The only time it is really important is in surgery and war.
                       ---Al McGuire

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #116 on: December 19, 2017, 05:38:34 PM »
An interesting perspective on Bitcoin from Doug Kass.
https://realmoney.thestreet.com/articles/12/11/2017/sorry-ruin-surprise-bitcoin-will-collapse-2018

I love dougie but this is all wrong.  He does not understand it.

See Chamath Palihapitiya recent comments on bitcoin (owner of the Golden State Warriors).  At one point is 2012 he owned 5% of all bitcoins.  He sees $100k in three to four years and $1 million after that.  It replaces the dollar as the reserve currency and end traditional banking as we know it.

I’m with Chamath .

MU82

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #117 on: December 19, 2017, 07:56:01 PM »
I love dougie but this is all wrong.  He does not understand it.

See Chamath Palihapitiya recent comments on bitcoin (owner of the Golden State Warriors).  At one point is 2012 he owned 5% of all bitcoins.  He sees $100k in three to four years and $1 million after that.  It replaces the dollar as the reserve currency and end traditional banking as we know it.

I’m with Chamath .

How much (many?) bitcoin do you own?
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

GGGG

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #118 on: December 19, 2017, 08:20:41 PM »
So how are bitcoins created?

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #119 on: December 19, 2017, 08:39:08 PM »
How much (many?) bitcoin do you own?


I started with 1% (of my funds), sold some along the way, now about 7% (because it rises too fast, I want to keep it at 5%.)

I'm in the process of swapping my bitcoin for bitcoin cash, ether, litecoin and ripple.

The single best idea I've ever had ... until it blows up and then it becomes my worst.

Herman Cain

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #120 on: December 19, 2017, 08:56:21 PM »
I love dougie but this is all wrong.  He does not understand it.

See Chamath Palihapitiya recent comments on bitcoin (owner of the Golden State Warriors).  At one point is 2012 he owned 5% of all bitcoins.  He sees $100k in three to four years and $1 million after that.  It replaces the dollar as the reserve currency and end traditional banking as we know it.

I’m with Chamath .
I know Doug personally and he is directionally correct most of the time. In fact in 2013 he pointed out the Bitcoin was like owning a mint 1952 Topps baseball card deck in 1992, so he has been bullish along the way. The guy makes his living on short side.

Glad to hear you have taken a big posture in Bitcoin, like Buffet says you only need to be smart once to get rich.

Should be noted , the one thing Doug always says "Never be embarrassed to wring the register".
Winning is overrated. The only time it is really important is in surgery and war.
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mu03eng

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #121 on: December 19, 2017, 10:14:46 PM »
So how are bitcoins created?

Over simplification, but when the bitcoin program was created it was built with a fixed number of coins. Users(and their computers) who used their machines to run algorithms for bitcoin get rewarded with a bitcoin when they complete a certain amount of algorithms. As available bitcoin in "reserve" get into public hands the next bitcoin requires more computation to achieve it(progressively harder to obtain). This is all called bitcoin mining and the algorithms have gotten complex enough that it takes a lot of processing power to mine a single coin that it actually costs more to mine than you get(at current market prices)
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

MU82

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #122 on: December 19, 2017, 10:24:35 PM »

I started with 1% (of my funds), sold some along the way, now about 7% (because it rises too fast, I want to keep it at 5%.)

I'm in the process of swapping my bitcoin for bitcoin cash, ether, litecoin and ripple.

The single best idea I've ever had ... until it blows up and then it becomes my worst.

I wish you good fortune.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

Benny B

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #123 on: December 19, 2017, 10:30:31 PM »
I wish you good fortune.

Hey, the more people that buy into the whole Bitcoin craze, the more valuable my VIX call options are going to be come May.  So yeah, good fortune.... for the rest of us.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #124 on: December 19, 2017, 10:54:47 PM »
Over simplification, but when the bitcoin program was created it was built with a fixed number of coins. Users(and their computers) who used their machines to run algorithms for bitcoin get rewarded with a bitcoin when they complete a certain amount of algorithms. As available bitcoin in "reserve" get into public hands the next bitcoin requires more computation to achieve it(progressively harder to obtain). This is all called bitcoin mining and the algorithms have gotten complex enough that it takes a lot of processing power to mine a single coin that it actually costs more to mine than you get(at current market prices)

I'll add one thing ... again oversimplifying

Bitcoin is the first application on the blockchain.  The blockchain is a way for two anonymous people to exchange "tokens" or coins without an intermediary, like a bank or financial institution.  There is a public ledger where you input your "key" and when it matches the exchange takes place (this gets involved so Google it if you want more).

The big problem is "double spending."  Since a bitcoin is nothing but an encrypted computer file, how do you know if I sell you my token, and then sell it again to another person ("double spending")?  To solve this each transaction (or "block") is "chained" together.  Then, each block, all the way back to the first block in January 2009 is checked to see if you "spent" that token before.  If not, then the transaction takes place.

To check all the blocks in its history takes tremendous computing power and electricity.  Where does that come from?  This is the algorithm that the miners are running.  They lend their resources to run the blockchain and when they have lent enough resources, they are rewarded with a coin.  On average a new coin is award about every 10 to 15 minutes.  As noted above it is capped at 21 million.  17 million have been awarded.  As the coins dwindle, they get harder to get (more computing power, and the electricity to power it).  The pace of coins award is set so the last coin is awarded in 2040.