P U thoughts

[Spaniel with a Short Tail]

You can go back and check my posts if you like but I have always held that my expectation when Wojo was hired was a dismal first season, an improved second season, back in the tournament by the third season, a step back in the fourth season, and return to the tournament in the 5th season with an established foundation for a long tournament streak with deep runs in the tournament. So far, we have been right on schedule.

The step back in the fourth season might seem odd, but at the time I was expecting that our highly ranked 2013 class + Luke was going to be graduating at the end of the 3rd season. With such a big class departing it seemed likely that we might take a step back. Especially given how historically hard it has been for us to find a center like Luke.

I posted this a while back but I believe there are three ways to win at a high level in today's college basketball:

1. Recruit one and done talent. The only two schools that can legitimately do this in today's game is Kentucky and Duke.
2. Get good, non-one and done talent and get old. This is your Villanovas, Louisvilles, Purdues, Wisconsins, etc.
3. A combo of the two. Kansas, Michigan State, Arizona, North Carolina, etc.

I know the waiting is excruciating, but we haven't been allowed to get old yet. Wojo's first class are juniors, our best players are sophomores, and our bench is primarily freshmen. With us only losing Rowsey next season and gaining Morrow, Joey, and Bailey, I see a team that is going to be a top 25 team and have a chance to make a deep run in the tournament. The year after that, I see  us only losing two meh seniors in Haanif and Heldt and likely gaining some quality freshmen given the players we are in on for the 2019 class. We will be in position to make a deeper run then. I can't see beyond that at the moment, but it has the makings of a strong foundation for high level success.

We are only two games into this season. Until I see something that disrupts my vision of the 18-19 and 19-20 seasons, I am still on board. I'm tired....because rebuilding is exhausting...but I still like where we are heading.

The one concern I have at the moment for the future is the PG position. Howard and Elliott haven't earned my confidence as primary ballhandlers with these first two games. But it has also only been two games and both are nursing nagging injuries so I'm not ready to declare that we need a new PG next year yet.

Wanted to give this a bump since it was such a discerning analysis. Well done!

[GGGG]

He does, actually. And he knows more about Matt Carlino than you or anyone else on the board. But keep it snarky...

Oh you know I will.

[muguru]

What were the quick fixes that wojo missed or passed on? I want to know. Let's have your evidence to back up your ironclad assertions

Now, obviously none of us know how many guys he tried to land his first or 2nd year here, but...I feel comfortable saying had he chose to, he could have brought in more grad transfers/traditional transfers his first and 2nd years then he did. If Iowa State can sustain a model like that, Wojo certainly could have done it for a year or two until he got his guys in the program. There was also the Juco ranks he could have explored. Iowa State largely builds their program on transfers, and they are in the tourney almost every year, with very good seeds typically.

[Lennys Tap]

Both Lockett and Reinhardt were top grad transfers that saw their scoring and eFG% drop. Both were top grad transfers, like Carlino.

Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that Wojo's offensive system allowed him to be both more efficient and more productive when both are blatantly obvious?

C'mon Brew, this is easy. Carlino was about all we had offensively. The other 4 were out there to free him up or get out of his way. Did Buzz ever run a play to get Lockett an open look? Of course not. Rheinhardt was a bigger part of Wojo's offense but not the focus.

[brewcity77]

C'mon Brew, this is easy. Carlino was about all we had offensively. The other 4 were out there to free him up or get out of his way. Did Buzz ever run a play to get Lockett an open look? Of course not. Rheinhardt was a bigger part of Wojo's offense but not the focus.

Which means teams focus on him. Sorry, but that argument only holds up if he's a high volume scorer. But his usage went down while his efficiency went up.

I'm sorry, but none of these "he didn't get any better" arguments hold water logically. Either he improved as a player or the system was better designed for him to maximize his ability. Both of those point to competent coaching. I don't see any other options.

[brewcity77]

Saying that coaching didn't benefit Carlino requires ridiculous mental gymnastics. Either the system helped him post his best ever season or the coaching helped him improve to post his best ever season. Regardless, some credit has to go to the coaching staff.

It's Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is usually the one that is true. Either the coaching helped him, or he somehow transformed as a player in a vacuum despite a lesser supporting cast, slower tempo, and tougher competition. Lennys' is right that it is easy, but only in the sense that the coaching staff obviously found ways to maximize his ability. It's irrelevant to me if it was scheme or development, but the odds of it being neither is wholly implausible.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Sultan

Matt Carlino was born a basketball player and raised in a 24/7 basketball environment. Wojo did not coach him up one bit. I was specifically talking about one player. This is one argument I can say I know what the hell I am talking about.

So it's just a coincidence that he put up by far his best numbers at Marquette despite having worse teammates, facing tougher opponents, playing at a slower pace, and having a lower usage? I don't think Wojo deserves all the credit by any means, and not enough can be said about Matt's work ethic and talent, but it seems unlikely that Wojo didn't have any impact.

We'll have to agree to disagree. If you want to believe that Matt didn't improve one bit as a basketball player from being at Marquette than that's your prerogative. But in my eyes its either Matt improved or the coaching staff implemented a system that benefited him or some combination of the two. By any statistical measure, Matt put up his best numbers in his last season.

[GGGG]

And if Goose knows the family, and the family says "Wojo didn't help," then I think the family is wrong.  Brew and TAMU laid it out better than I could.

[Hards Alumni]

11 pages into a Purdue post game thread we are debating semantics about a player that hasn't been on the team in two years.

Gotta love this place.

[jesmu84]

Jesmu84

Your splitting hairs talking about improved numbers. In addition, a top grad transfer should have improved numbers. Matt had more turnovers, less assists and averaged 1.3 more points a game at MU. Hardly numbers that jump out as a different player.

And, for the record, my eye test is better than most.

Advanced stats. Not box score averages

[Goose]

Sultan

I believe Matt thinks very highly of Wojo.

[jesmu84]

People who disliked the wojo hire from the beginning continuously use every possible piece of evidence that they can find to shred his program as long as he's here. They find ways to ignore any positive evidence. Such is life.

[Hards Alumni]

People who disliked the wojo hire from the beginning continuously use every possible piece of evidence that they can find to shred his program as long as he's here. They find ways to ignore any positive evidence. Such is life.

Cognitive dissonance

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

People who disliked the wojo hire from the beginning continuously use every possible piece of evidence that they can find to shred his program as long as he's here. They find ways to ignore any positive evidence. Such is life.

If the results were better this would not be an issue...So maybe its not just about 'people'.

[Goose]

Jesmu84

As for me, I was not anti Wojo and middle of the road Wojo at the current time. I simply feel that attaching Matt’s Sr. Year to Wojo coaching him up is a big, big stretch. As stated earlier in the post, I hope he takes that skill and coaches MH and HC up then.

There are positives I can attach to Wojo for his time here. Honestly, to me the biggest came at the 100th ball celebration last June. I believe that Wojo won over a lot of lukewarm believers that night. He showed a different side of himself and it was very appealing. That night I started to believe he has a chance to do something good here. If not, it would not be from a lack of effort.

So, this scooper is pulling for him to have success. Cannot speak for others. That said, this is a ball site and you should be free to share all feelings, not just positives or silver lining next year dreams.

[Dr. Blackheart]

After we sweep Maui let’s see where we go from there.  No Purdue match ups out there.  We can outshoot all these teams. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

After we sweep Maui let’s see where we go from there.  No Purdue match ups out there.  We can outshoot all these teams.

I like our chances against any team in Maui better than i liked our chances against Purdue. Wichita State is though though.  And Michigan is about as even a match-up as we could hope for all season IMHO. If we finish in third,  I'd be very happy.

[Lennys Tap]

People who disliked the wojo hire from the beginning continuously use every possible piece of evidence that they can find to shred his program as long as he's here. They find ways to ignore any positive evidence. Such is life.

People who liked the wojo hire from the beginning continuously use every possible piece of evidence that they can find to extol his program as long as he's here. They find ways to ignore any negative evidence. Such is life.

Cognitive dissonance.

[Goose]

Lenny

It is kind of funny, but I was excited for the Wojo hire after his press conference. As many know, I was 100% in Shaka camp and was disappointed he lost him. That said, I warmed to Wojo quickly and was very excited he landed Henry. I thought he was off to the races.

Fast forward a few years, I am far from anti Wojo, but am anti the progress made thus far. I agree with you, the pro Wojo camp struggles to find anything wrong with the progress and highlight any positive, regardless of importance in the big picture. For me, Wojo has shown some recruiting ability and I hope he continues recruiting 4-5 star players. IMO, that is the only way that measurable success in the program will occur.

Lastly, I admit that I know little of what happens behind the scenes today, but I am not exactly sure what the game plan for success at MU looks like today. Is it landing three stars and make them better? Is it swinging for the fences and landing 4-5 stars or is it a combination? IMO, he not shown enough as a coach to win a high level with a slew of three star players.

[jsglow]

In some ways I think that there's two types of #mubb fans.  There's the group who demand that MU run a clean and respectable program with kids we can be proud of and expect top half (or better) BEast performance, consistent NCAA appearances, and occasional deep (or very deep) runs.  Let's not forget that back in the late 2000s 'Nova was about like we are today.  The other group expects MU to be at near a 'blue blood' level and is prepared to sacrifice nearly anything to achieve that rung.  Student athletes that go to class?  Nah.  'Hostesses' for their campus visit?  Sure, if necessary. Checks to family members if nobody finds out?  Who cares.

Now we all admit that MU pours huge money into basketball and that a return on that investment is expected.  From what I understand from Bill Scholl, MU currently estimates that return as $7 for $1 if my memory holds.  But performance must come on the court to sustain that.  And building a 'clean' program takes time and is done one step at a time.  We seem to be getting there as evidenced by last year's NCAA.  Time will tell this year and next year looks pretty bright based on the anticipated roster.  But corners aren't going to be cut like they were in the Buzz days and that leaves the 'win at all costs' crowd disappointed in my view.

[brewcity77]

People who liked the wojo hire from the beginning continuously use every possible piece of evidence that they can find to extol his program as long as he's here. They find ways to ignore any negative evidence. Such is life.

Cognitive dissonance.

Not sure who you're talking about, but if I'm included this is intellectual dishonesty. I spent a more than necessary amount of time this week going on about our defensive woes.

When I see reasons for concern, like our defense, our roster balance, or any other concerns, I call them out. I've had concerns about player development as well, notably Cheatham.

But I can also see the positives, and anyone denying that Matt had his best season in terms of raw production and advanced efficiency is either missing the blatantly obvious or being deliberately ignorant.

I'm not even assigning credit to Wojo for Matt's development. Maybe Goose is right and Matt was the same player, but if that's true I feel there is no way to honestly say the system Wojo built around him didn't benefit Matt more so than the system at BYU did. That's on coaching. He's not a perfect coach or a finished product, but Matt Carlino absolutely benefitted from coaching decisions Wojo made.

[Goose]

brewcity

I am going to hate myself for asking, but what the hell? If as you say, Wojo/the system made Carlino better, who else as Wojo/the system made better? I watched Vander Blue get better year over year and never did I feel Buzz was the reason behind it. While I loved Buzz's style of play and players he recruited, I felt he was a bust as a coach. To me his strength was getting players and that chip on the shoulder mentality.

At this point, other than Carlino, who has made big steps year over year? I am asking one favor, do not say Rowsey. From day one on campus many former players stated Rowsey was the real deal, for what type of player he is. I know I am intellectually challenged on ball knowledge, but I cannot think of one player off the top of my head that has had Vander Blue type improvement.

[Goose]

jsglow

I think you are making a pretty bold statement in describing the camp that wants to win at a high level. I want MU to win, win big and do it the right way. There are winning programs that do the right way. I have no idea how Xavier has become a top twenty program, but my gut says they have done it the right way. That is what I WANT from our program.

I have said it here many times, for decades Xavier was our whipping boy and I hate when we played they played us because they could not beat us. Now, I want us to be Xavier like. Who knows, maybe even a cozy arena of our own like Xavier.

I do not know who on here you thinks want MU to be a dirty program, but I want MU to win big and do it the right way. Doing the right way and not winning big is acceptable to many and not to others. If it is acceptable, scale back on the ball budget.

[DCHoopster]

brewcity

I am going to hate myself for asking, but what the hell? If as you say, Wojo/the system made Carlino better, who else as Wojo/the system made better? I watched Vander Blue get better year over year and never did I feel Buzz was the reason behind it. While I loved Buzz's style of play and players he recruited, I felt he was a bust as a coach. To me his strength was getting players and that chip on the shoulder mentality.

At this point, other than Carlino, who has made big steps year over year? I am asking one favor, do not say Rowsey. From day one on campus many former players stated Rowsey was the real deal, for what type of player he is. I know I am intellectually challenged on ball knowledge, but I cannot think of one player off the top of my head that has had Vander Blue type improvement.

I would have to agree, there has been no one, you can say Matt Heldt has shown some improvement but a long way to go as against Purdue and South Carolina he
did nothing.    Hauser, Howard and Rowsey were good from day 1.  Anim not sure and Cheatham has taken a step back, not sure how smart a player he is, driving into
7 footers and has not learned how to shot a mid range jumper or floater.  So it gets down to frosh, so the jury is out on them for a few years.  Vander was an exception not the rule.  His improvement was amazing, but you can also say he was a big disappointment the first 2 years.  I think Vander liked the idea he was the man vs. being just one of the players.

[Goose]

DC

Matt liked being the man and not just one of the players. His year at MU was first time in college that was the man. He was far more comfortable in that role. Funny thing is, his first month here everyone thought he was one of the players and should be scaled back. He reminds of Vander in many ways. Biggest similarity, when he was one of the players nobody liked him, when the man a different story.