MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: tower912 on November 14, 2017, 09:47:49 PM
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1. Purdue had size and width at every position. And experience. Big 1G champs last year and only lost Swanigan. Very good team. Who has already played a bunch of games in the last few months.
2. Froling and Morrow would have been helpful tonight. So would Fischer. (for you, Sand-Knit)
3. Wojo made the decision to not double Haas. Purdue was patient, experienced, and unsefish enough to keep feeding him. And he kept scoring. When MU started double teaming, Purdue started making 3's. Coincidence? No.
4. I don't mind Haanif attacking the rim and getting stuffed at all. The offense was stagant and he tried to make a play.
5. The defensive intensity is much improved. Yes, there were breakdowns. But compared to last year, MU did a much better job of staying with their man.
6. MU is no bigger right now than they were last year when they were a small team. And they are less experienced, trading JjJ, Katin, Luke and Duane for Theo, Elliot, Sacar, and Cain. Froling will make a difference.
7. Purdue's defense in the first half was stellar. No room for MU to get off an open shot.
8. I am not depressed by this game. Purdue is a good team. Bigger, stronger, older. MU is not going to face many teams as big, as strong, as deep, as experienced. Froling is coming in a month.
9. Howard, Rowsey, and Hauser will be enough to win a lot of games. Tonight, needed a 4th scorer.
10. Probably should have gotten Cain some run. And Elliot some more run. A lot of tired players out there at the end.
11. Now we know. No more illusions. The season isn't over. This team has a relatively high ceiling. But the team isn't there yet. The frosh are not instant impact. Froling is coming. If he is the real deal and MU can get consistent production from Haanif, Sacar, the Frosh, MU is a tourney team. But that is not a guarantee.
12. I predicted 84-75 with foul trouble dictating outcome. Not that far off.
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Yeah I am not surprised by the outcome. The defensive intensity waned in the second half but I think that was mostly due to being tired. Wish we had a slasher to attack the basket more. Someone in the game thread mentioned missing JJJ. Don’t miss all his decisions but understand the sentiment.
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Was thinking about your 9th point as well. Who is going to be the consistent 4th option?
Where's Sacar? I was hoping for a bigger contribution, didn't see much at all.
Heldt>Fischer? Idiotic
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How many consecutive trips did they score in the second half? You can't come back when you're constantly taking it out of bounds after another make.
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Really impressed with Purdue, wouldn't be surprised if they challenge Michigan State for the Big 10 title.
Thought we played well actually, Haas was just too big and too good for our guys. This is a great game to learn from going into Maui
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So as long as MU doesn’t play teams with 7ft centers or very fast guards, it’s all good
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So as long as MU doesn’t play teams with 7ft centers or very fast guards, it’s all good
Actually we were just fine on the perimeter until we started doubling the post and leaving a shooter open
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Howard is really good and can't wait till next year when he has a bruiser like Morrow up front.
Purdue was big in the middle, but MU has to face the likes of Delgado, Spellman, Govan, O'Mara, Martin, etc., and thats just in BE play.
MU's centers tonight, not including Hauser (aka Lazar) : 3 points, 1 rebound, 10 fouls. Lets hope that doesn't continue.
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Actually we were just fine on the perimeter until we started doubling the post and leaving a shooter open
+1 Dictated by foul trouble, fatigue, and Purdue's patience and efficiency.
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1. I'm not discouraged after this game. If Froling can score, we will win a lot of games.
2. Freshmen clearly are not ready to contribute yet - hopefully some experience against the bunnies will help.
3. Haani continues to disappoint. Was at his worst tonite. We were dying for another guy to step up and score and he had nothing. I don't know if he had any boards either. Was running away from the ball in half court offense.
4. Rowsey and Howard need to average 20 ppg or the offense will really be in trouble.
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How many consecutive trips did they score in the second half? You can't come back when you're constantly taking it out of bounds after another make.
Scrolling through the play by play, it looks like Purdue got points on 26 of 30 possessions in the second half until garbage time started.
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A lot better than I thought actually. Was really expecting a coast to coast blowout.
Two halves that were complete opposites. Defense was excellent in the first half, offense non-existent. Defense was porous in the second half, offense was en fuego in the second half.
Did not understand the decision to double team Haas. Yes, he was taking advantage and getting his with one on one coverage, but we had the rest of their team shut down. If the offense had been clicking in the first half, we would have had a double digit lead at the half. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Purdue shot 100% from the floor on possessions when we double teamed Haas. It was not working.
Sam defers too much....and then seems to force it when he doesn't defer.
Markus and Rowsey have the potential to win us any game. Unstoppable offense.
That Haas kid traveled almost every time he touched the ball. But that is what an experienced and dominant center looks like.
I thought Purdue would be slightly better this season than they were last season. I think I underestimated. That looks like a top 10 team to me.
I'm more confident about our team now than I was before the game. Let's go get dem Rams.
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Curious who can become a secondary ball handler and facilitator. Rowsey had to do a lot of dribbling and cover a lot of miles. I can't fault him at all for the 5 turnovers or a bit of chucking late. Heldt was second on the team with two assists, which isn't cool.
Have a feeling we could be seeing the Wojo zone before we hit December. May only be temporary though; Froling will help with that, and Theo will eventually learn to keep himself on the court.
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Really entertaining game but also frustrating with Purdue's size. Hauser showed great intensity and Theo John could be one hell of a PF. Glad we have Rowsey and Howard filling it up! Overall I like this team
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Everyone crapping on Haanif needs to cool off. No one could get anything going in the lane other than floaters. Picking out Haanif as our big problem isn't fair or accurate.
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Much as I love Rowsey, when he drives into the tall timber it's trouble - blocks, TO's. He should be a 3 bagger.
Thought Markus played better D tonight, then felt like a jerk when I realized he'd fouled out.
Matt worked hard, he was overmatched, as was the team. Totally unimpressed with Sacar.
Love the body (and neck) on Theo but he's averaging 19.5 fouls per 40 min.
Gotta admit, kept hoping for the double on the big guy, but when it happened, things just got worse.
Not an embarrassment, but a sign of how far we are from being a top 20 program.
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They were just way too big, too experienced. We need our additional bigs badly. Consistent issue with the team that will hopefully be slightly addressed when Froling joins, but next year with Morrow and Eke is when we finally when we have some big men that are really solid on the glass and defensive end. Froling seems to be mostly a stretch 4.
Markus is a baller. Rowsey continues to make big shots. Not sure wing depth is going to be any better until next year. Loss of experience (JJJ/Katin) hurts. I just think Haani is unfortunately in the Juan Anderson and Sandy Cohen syndrome. Always think they could break out but it just doesn't happen.
Additional thought: it sucks when we have such an imposing physical big man (John) and he's not really able to use it to his advantage yet. Think some of the fouls have been a bit ticky tack. Hoping he figures things out sooner than later because he is desperately needed.
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A lot better than I thought actually. Was really expecting a coast to coast blowout.
Did not understand the decision to double team Haas. Yes, he was taking advantage and getting his with one on one coverage, but we had the rest of their team shut down. If the offense had been clicking in the first half, we would have had a double digit lead at the half. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Purdue shot 100% from the floor on possessions when we double teamed Haas. It was not working.
I mean, he scored just about every time he got the ball to start the second half. First half he had some misses but second was a different story. Something had to be done and they hit their shots, contested and not. Thought we did about all we could given the disparity in height.
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It was like watching the Bucks defense in the second half. So many open threes.
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Really no surprises. We played to our strengths and weaknesses (I won't harp on these again). It's a game of match ups and MU was exploited. Liked Elliott's energy. Sam out with flu all week. Need Froling quick. Great time out by Woj at end of half to go on 11-2 run. Purdue a Final 4 team.
Why did we double? All our bigs in foul trouble. Pick your poison. Purdue beat us like a drum.
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It was like watching the Bucks defense in the second half. So many open threes.
I mean, they only hit 4 threes all game according to the box score.
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I felt that our big 3 would be capable of delivering 60 points consistently. They delivered 61 points of production, unfortunately we did not get much from anyone else.
I still feel good about the team. We went up against a high quality squad , that played at a fast pace and we held our own for quite a while. As the year goes by Elliot is going to be more and more of a positive factor. He definitely added some energy in his time on the court.
I am not a big fan of comparing teams year to year, Every year stands on its own. The reality though is we lost 4 seniors all of who could comfortably compete in games like this. Their replacements will take a bit of time to settle in and gain the confidence and experience they need. Haani had some good moments that were encouraging.
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Heldt and Haney are juniors and they were outmatched from the get go, neither one is a threat
to score. Hausers been sick and he still had more rebounds than those guys. Four seniors make a huge difference,I was really impressed with PU
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1. We weren’t supposed to win this game. But we will beat some good teams down the road.
2. We held Purdue to 0 3’s into the second half. Did not have an answer for Haas. Theo and Matt pretty much came up to Haas’s chin, I think.
3. Reggie Lynch and Jordan Murphy will have their way with Haas this year.
4. Markus found his shot.
5. Bigger, stronger and have played lots of games as a team already this year. Overall a mismatch. Good experience for this team. Better we lose to the #19 team than to Indiana State.
6. I think VCU is very winnable.
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I was fairly encouraged. There were so many times they made a shot and I thought, "I'd give them that all day." They just kept hitting a ton of tough shots.
I think the offense needs some time to gel. We didn't seem to get a ton of easy looks. Howard and Rowsey hit a bunch of contested shots.
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This sums up my thought:
(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/51b3dc8ee4b051b96ceb10de/t/549d85fae4b00eb7a7a29c20/1419609601068/rock-hard-rocky-iv-poster-art-by-jason-edmiston)
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-Felt like Purdue was getting every tipped ball or loose ball
- I dont care how good or big a center is Matt shouldn't be getting bullied like tonight in the paint
- thought rowsey and howard played solid defense
- Sacar would get the ball in side the free throw line and would look to pass instead of take a little floater
overall i am fine with the outcome purdue was the better team even though we hung around for a while. Going to be a fun season
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Feel fine. We missed Froling this game. I wish Rowsey slowed down occassionally. It felt like every rally was cut short by a Rowsey out of control play tonight.
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+1 Dictated by foul trouble, fatigue, and Purdue's patience and efficiency.
Yes Wojo had to double to try to prevent Heldt and Theo from fouling out, didn’t work but not much else he could do.
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2. We held Purdue to 0 3’s into the second half. Did not have an answer for Haas. Theo and Matt pretty much came up to Haas’s chin, I think.
Actually zero 3's in the FIRST half.
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I still don't know why people are talking like Purdue is really good. They are experienced and pretty sound making plays but nothing special.
I am not then saying we suck because they beat us by 15.
Just a really poor match up for us. The little mistakes really hurt us.
I said it on the game thread. As gopher supporter on the side, I'm loving what I saw from Purdue.
Just not a good match up for our team. Hopefully we go out and play really well vs VCU.
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Wonder if jamal will see some minutes his way soon
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I think we played at our best with Sam at center. Matt couldn't really stop Haas and on offense it was like playing 4 on 5. Haas could be a plug in the lane bc Matt posed no offensive threat at all and couldn't even be relied on for a pick and roll, so I think that's largely why our offense was stagnant. If Haas would have been marking Sam the whole game, it would have opened up the lane or forced them into a zone, which also should have helped our offense.
I think Froling will be a huge asset come Big East play.
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Actually zero 3's in the FIRST half.
I mean this in the most polite way possible, but that is actually what she said “0 3’s into the 2nd half”
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I still don't know why people are talking like Purdue is really good. They are experienced and pretty sound making plays but nothing special.
I am not then saying we suck because they beat us by 15.
Just a really poor match up for us. The little mistakes really hurt us.
I said it on the game thread. As gopher supporter on the side, I'm loving what I saw from Purdue.
Just not a good match up for our team. Hopefully we go out and play really well vs VCU.
Purdue will be a top 10-15 team all year, they are not one dimensional, very balanced on offense. They will be the team no one looks forward to play in March.
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Wonder if jamal will see some minutes his way soon
He's certainly not blocked. There's a wide open spot with a lot of minutes for Sacar or Jamal if they can lay claim to it.
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61 of our 71 points were scored by three players. We had two players outscore Haas. The reason we lost is that we only have 3 high division 1 players.
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1. Purdue is the better team, so no shame inning the loss.
2. Wojo needs to embrace small ball until Frolling is eligible. Sam was our best 5 tonight, as MU didn’t require a double when he defended their 5. Taking out the final five minutes of garbage time, I’d love to see the breakdown of points with Heldt/John versus without. I feel like all of our runs came without a true center.
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Actual thoughts:
- We were fortunate to be as close as we were at halftime. They bullied us but we made the run late to make it look closer than it was.
- Haas destroyed us. No one was big enough to challenge his shot so he scored whenever he was singled, and kicked it around to the open man when he was double. That's as dominant a big man performance as we'll see this year. Looked like he was taking candy from babies when he put his shot up.
- That second half defense was terrible. I think at one point we made threes on four straight trips and only made up 2 points of deficit because we could not stop them.
- This was a terrible matchup. We may play better teams this year, but this is the only team I don't feel we ever had a chance against.
- Henry in the house tonight. Hope Froling can add some of what we got from him.
- Markus' shot looked good. Love that he's added that driving floater.
- Some idiot behind me said Rowsey sucked and he hated him every time the kid touched the ball. At times, he was the only one doing anything. What a moron. The guy behind me, not Rowsey.
- Sam needs to be more assertive. Sam NEEDS to be more assertive. For us to be a tourney team he has to be part of a three headed offensive monster.
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1. I'm not discouraged after this game. If Froling can score, we will win a lot of games.
2. Freshmen clearly are not ready to contribute yet - hopefully some experience against the bunnies will help.
3. Haani continues to disappoint. Was at his worst tonite. We were dying for another guy to step up and score and he had nothing. I don't know if he had any boards either. Was running away from the ball in half court offense.
4. Rowsey and Howard need to average 20 ppg or the offense will really be in trouble.
The problem with #1 is...how many will they lose before they get Harry?? If they don't pick off 1 or two of the remaining big games on their schedule(VCU, possibly Wichita, Georgia, Wisconsin, Vermont), get none of those and they are already in big trouble before BE even starts, make the championship of maui and all is well.
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The problem with #1 is...how many will they lose before they get Harry?? If they don't pick off 1 or two of the remaining big games on their schedule(VCU, possibly Wichita, Georgia, Wisconsin, Vermont), get none of those and they are already in big trouble before BE even starts, make the championship of maui and all is well.
Tonight sucked but I think Purdue beats us 100 times out of 100. Conversely, I think we are better than VCU, Georgia, Wisconsin, and Vermont. I still think we go 4-0 in those games.
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1) Heldt aint it. There's a reason Wojo recruited both Froeling and Morrow. He knows what we know after tonight. Matt Heldt is a Craig Butrym in a Jerome Whitehead world.
2) Purdue is what I think we will be a year from now. Tough, well-rounded but not quite strong enough to be an elite team. They were well coached and played within their game. They knew our weaknesses and pummeled us right at the weak spots every time.
3) Hanni got stuffed because someone watched the films. They knew he was going in on his left hand. Purdue was too well positioned when Hanni went down the lane.
We're a pretty good team. I'm hoping Froeling will help because if he can't, I'm not sure about this year!
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I'm more confident about our team now than I was before the game.
That's what I said to my wife, too.
I think Purdue is a very good team with a lot of experience and intelligence, and quite a bit of skill, too. People forget they won the conference last season. It was a terrible match-up for us, yet we hung in there, made a couple nice runs, and really battled.
The guys on the court tonight will get better, and Froling will bring a lot. I'm high on Theo - once he figures a few things out, he will really help this team. And Elliott had nice steals on consecutive plays during the run that got us back in the game.
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I'm more confident about our team now than I was before the game.
I'm not there yet. They relied way too much on Markus and Rowsey making difficult shots. I know Purdue is a good team, but the offense ground to a halt for a good chunk of that game. The lack of depth is really glaring.
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I'm not there yet. They relied way too much on Markus and Rowsey making difficult shots. I know Purdue is a good team, but the offense ground to a halt for a good chunk of that game. The lack of depth is really glaring.
We are really missing a PG that drive/dish and an interior scoring threat. You're 100% right our whole offense was passing the ball around the perimeter and hope either Rowsey or Howard make a contested/fadeaway 3 pointer....need to have another option or two on offense.
Defense looked much better overall compared to last year, but we were overmatched inside, which was ultimately the difference.
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Glad everyone is feeling good about this team after a 15 point loss at home to a team that is barely ranked.
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I am not there yet either - defense, rebounding and having only three guys (basically) score lost the game. Will Frohling help. Who knows. Will our defense improve ( was good for a half) who knows. Will we rebound better? Who knows.
We saw what we looked like against a pretty good team with muscle and size. Big East is loaded. We have a lot of work to do. Only second game, so..... let’s see. Go Marquette
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The Good:
Knowing what Rowsey, Howard and Hauser are going to give MU on the offensive-end. I know people are complaining about them scoring almost all the points, but I rather have that than wondering where the offense will come from. Much easier for the other guys to fill a role and build on that. Just compare that to last year, when it took until conference play for that to sort itself out. Puts MU in a much better position to win games in Maui and the rest of non-conference play.
The Bad:
Our defensive rotations were terrible and communication was poor. Wasn't as big of a problem in the first half as MU avoided breakdowns, but the minute we started doubling the post, it was very evident. I feel this has been an issue for all of Wojo's tenure, so I'm not very hopeful that we will be seeing a great deal of improvement.
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3) Hanni got stuffed because someone watched the films. They knew he was going in on his left hand. Purdue was too well positioned when Hanni went down the lane.
Haani got stuffed because everyone knows he can only go left.
Our offense was dead when Matt & Haani were on the floor together. Defense is easy when only 3 guys can score.
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Marquette really Haas a tough time defending bigs, hey?
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Tonight sucked but I think Purdue beats us 100 times out of 100. Conversely, I think we are better than VCU, Georgia, Wisconsin, and Vermont. I still think we go 4-0 in those games.
I think Ethan Happ is going to destroy Heldt. Need to double team and hope UW misses shots.
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I gotta admit, I am a little taken aback at the "oh well" nature of some of these comments. I see two problems that are going to be a recurring theme.
-Lack of a point guard. Neither Howard nor Rowsey protect the ball enough to play point IMO. I'm not one of those "pure point guard" types, but they have to be more protective than they have been.
-Lack of interior scoring. They miss both the post ups that Luke could give, as well as JJJ's driving ability. Someone has to step up in that regard. Froling could replace the former. Haanif, Sacar or Jamal needs to replace the latter.
The defense is what the defense is. They are small on the outside and not very athletic on the inside. Not a good combination.
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I gotta admit, I am a little taken aback at the "oh well" nature of some of these comments. I see two problems that are going to be a recurring theme.
-Lack of a point guard. Neither Howard nor Rowsey protect the ball enough to play point IMO. I'm not one of those "pure point guard" types, but they have to be more protective than they have been.
-Lack of interior scoring. They miss both the post ups that Luke could give, as well as JJJ's driving ability. Someone has to step up in that regard. Froling could replace the former. Haanif, Sacar or Jamal needs to replace the latter.
The defense is what the defense is. They are small on the outside and not very athletic on the inside. Not a good combination.
We don't agree often, but you nailed it right there...the "ho hum" nature after another home loss, is perplexing. I for one am tired of leaving the BC with losses so often. Sure as hell hope the new arena brings a much better "home court" advantage, because to be quite honest, they have been downright BAD at defending their home court under Wojo.
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I think Ethan Happ is going to destroy Heldt. Need to double team and hope UW misses shots.
He won't the way Haas did. The biggest problem with Haas was that it looked like one 8th grade kid playing with the 3rd graders. Physically, sizewise, the five inches Heldt gave up to Haas may as well have been a foot. Happ just doesn't have that type of physical presence.
And maybe more important, Happ doesn't have the supporting cast that Haas does. That punished us as much as anything.
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A number of comments above about how Froling will be a difference maker, etc. Sure hope so. Playing against a team with two 7 plus centers exposed a lot. Just wondering when that great defensive guru, Wojo figures it all out. Now in his 4th year, with all his own players, the excuses are all gone. We are not yet near the Duke of the midwest, but sure hope Wojo figures it out. While Heldt plays hard, he needed oodles of help out there, and while John has a good body, his foul propensity will not get us much. Guess we may have to wait to see if Froling is the real deal, as some are opining.
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We don't agree often, but you nailed it right there...the "ho hum" nature after another home loss, is perplexing. I for one am tired of leaving the BC with losses so often. Sure as hell hope the new arena brings a much better "home court" advantage, because to be quite honest, they have been downright BAD at defending their home court under Wojo.
What would you prefer? Punching a locker and breaking a hand?
There were a lot of positives last night, and some negatives. Purdue is the bigger, better, more experienced team. We won't face many teams with a good 7-foot center who can be replaced if tired or in foul trouble by another good 7-foot center. We miss JJJ's penetration, Luke's post-up game and Katin's savvy, but we can't bring them back. Sam has talent and works hard. Heldt is a 10-15 minute backup center. We CAN win with a Markus/Rowsey backcourt. Theo definitely has potential. Sacar didn't do much. Elliott had a couple nice steals. Pluses, minuses, etc, etc, etc.
So we can say stuff like that - be encouraged by the positives, acknowledge the negatives - or we can climb on the ledge and scream, "Purdue's no good and we lost to them at home by 15, so why even bother with the season? We are doomed! Fire Wojo!"
I and others choose to not start bagging on this team 2 games into the season. But if others want to throw things and make baseless "or else" threats, knock yourselves out.
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They were fine last night. Bad team matchup for us. Tough to play a team that talented/experienced early in the season with our young squad.
3 headed offensive monster may open up things for others as season rolls on
Can you imagine Purdue with swanigan? Jeesh
For those downplaying Purdue, you're foolish. That is a very good team.
No surprise who the boo birds are again. ::)
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I gotta admit, I am a little taken aback at the "oh well" nature of some of these comments. I see two problems that are going to be a recurring theme.
-Lack of a point guard. Neither Howard nor Rowsey protect the ball enough to play point IMO. I'm not one of those "pure point guard" types, but they have to be more protective than they have been.
-Lack of interior scoring. They miss both the post ups that Luke could give, as well as JJJ's driving ability. Someone has to step up in that regard. Froling could replace the former. Haanif, Sacar or Jamal needs to replace the latter.
The defense is what the defense is. They are small on the outside and not very athletic on the inside. Not a good combination.
Listen, when you expected a 17-13 team and an 8th place finish, you get "oh well". This will be a good offensive team, and a mediocre defensive team. Purdue was just a very tough match up. Maui will give us a better clue as to what MU has.
Thoughts on your comments:
As to point guard, Wojo prefers combo guards (not sure many here prefer this). Both Markus and Rowsey have good (lower) turnover rates. Don't see Elliott or Haanif as a solution here this or next year as has been postulated.
Interior scoring and defense are big, gaping holes. Help is on the way in Froling (at least depth) and next year (Morrow). Sam may be best solution now.
The Haanif, Sacar, Elliott, Cain spot is key to this season. I don't expect much from the freshman except to develop. Haanif and Sacar are who we think they are so far. This spot has to evolve or MU is dead in the water.
Wojo doesn't have the talent or athlectism to play his Duke defense, IMO. His best defensive team was with Jaun playing the top in the 1-3-1 trap, and Derrick playing low in the 2-3 zone. I continue to dislike his scheme and he has yet to prove he can be successful in it here. He makes the big bucks while I sit on the couch, though, and he has made this a point of emphasis. Let's see what develops as this is everyone's biggest question mark. I prefer a stop defense.
This season is all about next season. This is going to be an up and down year as we see Wojo's plan unfold. A lot is on him this year, but the start of the season we all knew would be rough and raw. Let's see what this team and coaching staff have.
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We all knew we'd be exposed before Froling became eligible, and this was the match-up most likely to expose that weakness. Will he be a cure-all? No. Would he have turned a L into a W last night? Who knows. But certainly he'll be a net value-add. Esp since we'll be able to go three-deep at C and/or put two big bodies on the floor at the same time if necessary. As much as the 2015-2016 season was frustrating, it was great to see us putting two bigs on the floor.
Agree that lack of someone to take it to the rack will take a toll - and will probably tell on our shooters' percentage as much as anything else will. Someone said inthe other thread that Sacar had "Juan Anderson/Jamil Wilson/etc" syndrome - but I'm afraid it's both Sacar and Hani. Just because we want them to breakout doesn't mean they will. We're getting close to having all the pieces, just not there quite yet.
Still, as long as we're not in too big a hole by the time Froling joins in we should have the talent to Dance.
Slate of VCU/Georgia/Vermont/UW so crucial. We should be table to take 3 of 4 of those which positions us well. 4/4 we're in the driver seat. 2/4 some work to do. 1/4 in real trouble. 0/4... well, it won't come to that.
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Listen, when you expected a 17-13 team and an 8th place finish, you get "oh well". This will be a good offensive team, and a mediocre defensive team. Purdue was just a very tough match up. Maui will give us a better clue as to what MU has.
Thoughts on your comments:
As to point guard, Wojo prefers combo guards (not sure many here prefer this). Both Markus and Rowsey have good (lower) turnover rates. Don't see Elliott or Haanif as a solution here this or next year as has been postulated.
Interior scoring and defense are big, gaping holes. Help is on the way in Froling (at least depth) and next year (Morrow). Sam may be best solution now.
The Haanif, Sacar, Elliott, Cain spot is key to this season. I don't expect much from the freshman except to develop. Haanif and Sacar are who we think they are so far. This spot has to evolve or MU is dead in the water.
Wojo doesn't have the talent or athlectism to play his Duke defense, IMO. His best defensive team was with Jaun playing the top in the 1-3-1 trap, and Derrick playing low in the 2-3 zone. I continue to dislike his scheme and he has yet to prove he can be successful in it here. He makes the big bucks while I sit on the couch, though, and he has made this a point of emphasis. Let's see what develops as this is everyone's biggest question mark. I prefer a stop defense.
This season is all about next season. This is going to be an up and down year as we see Wojo's plan unfold. A lot is on him this year, but the start of the season we all knew would be rough and raw. Let's see what this team and coaching staff have.
+1
Had you posted 2 minutes earlier I could have saved the time writing my post! :)
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PU is better.
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I gotta admit, I am a little taken aback at the "oh well" nature of some of these comments. I see two problems that are going to be a recurring theme.
-Lack of a point guard. Neither Howard nor Rowsey protect the ball enough to play point IMO. I'm not one of those "pure point guard" types, but they have to be more protective than they have been.
-Lack of interior scoring. They miss both the post ups that Luke could give, as well as JJJ's driving ability. Someone has to step up in that regard. Froling could replace the former. Haanif, Sacar or Jamal needs to replace the latter.
The defense is what the defense is. They are small on the outside and not very athletic on the inside. Not a good combination.
If you can see the weaknesses, and I think you do from the balance of your post, then why don't you understand the "oh well" nature of the posts? I'm not that upset, as I predicted a loss and the foul trouble. Why did I predict it? Because I saw that Purdue was a bigger, more experienced team. Because I recognize that currently MU is the exact same size it was last year when it was a small team. Only now, it is a small team with no experienced depth. I think this team has the potential to be a tourney team. But, realistically, a whole lot of unknowns and new pieces have to come through. And betting large on that scenario is never a good idea.
So, looking for improvement. Hoping that Wojo is still recruiting for next season. Accepting that MU was never going to win last night.
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We don't agree often, but you nailed it right there...the "ho hum" nature after another home loss, is perplexing. I for one am tired of leaving the BC with losses so often. Sure as hell hope the new arena brings a much better "home court" advantage, because to be quite honest, they have been downright BAD at defending their home court under Wojo.
Because for the most part we haven't had very good players under Wojo, or at least good enough players to effectively compete with power teams like Purdue.
Right now if we played PU 10 times we'd lose 9. There was nothing wrong with last night's effort. The 'ho hum' is simply a reality check for most. But it still doesn't make the 2 hour drive home any better.
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I didn't notice this posted anywhere, but another positive is that in the 2nd quarter, Markus got his 3 point shot back.
I was starting to worry that a Haanif-like sophomore year was a foregone conclusion for hm
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Haven't read through this thread so I'm sure I'm repeating some of the stuff posted in here. But overall I'm encouraged by last night. The team competed hard with a veteran, big team. It was frustrating watching their bigs be able to go one on one for most of the night, but we saw why that was the gameplan when we started to double them in the post and they then hit their perimeter shots down the stretch. They're as balanced and as big of a team as we'll see this year. I thought the defense was good for the better part of the first 30 minutes of the game and got worn down for the last 10 minutes of the game.
The offense was underwhelming. Way too much one on one and way too many forced, quick shots. Out of baseline out of bounds plays it seemed like guys had their minds made up that they were shooting the ball on the catch no matter what and no matter how much time was left on the shot clock. Ball movement wasn't good, spacing wasn't good. But we obviously (and rightfully so) worked on defense for the past 7 months. I'm not concerned, the offense will come around, it just wasn't quite where it needed to be to beat a team like Purdue this early in the year.
I wasn't sure Froling would be a huge factor for us, but after last night I'm sure hoping he is. We need a 4th guy in a bad way. He has a chance to be by far our biggest offensive threat in the post, and the fact that he can step out and shoot the ball is a big benefit for him and the team. If Haas or Haarms have to step out and guard him in the corner that opens up some lanes to finish at the rim that weren't there last night.
Sam, Markus, and Rowsey are all studs that will be even better when the offense gets fully flowing. Otherwise it's just a bunch of guys right now. Sacar meh, Cheatham meh, Heldt meh, Elliott meh, Theo meh. Need something from Froling or it will be a grind for "the big 3" this year.
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If you can see the weaknesses, and I think you do from the balance of your post, then why don't you understand the "oh well" nature of the posts?
People are misunderstanding me. I am not surprised by the outcome. I'm surprised that Scoop is acting all calm and rational.
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I agree with most of what has been posted. The game went as expected. My biggest concern is the group of Cheatham, Anim, Elliott, and Cain. Wojo either needs to do a lot of developing or a lot of recruiting. Or both.
Markus Howard is going to be awfully lonely in the backcourt next year.
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1) This game was about what I had expected. Purdue was a bad match-up for MU, but it also showed that MU has a ways to go to compete with the big boys.
2) MU has some excellent shooters but they have no play-makers and no post presence. This team needs to get the ball inside. Even if it's just a toss into Heldt so he can pass it right back out, there needs to be more ball movement inside-out as opposed to just along the perimeter. It's like throwing the occasional deep ball in football - you have to at least make the D respect that it's an option.
3) Pump the brakes on Froling. He's only a soph and he averaged 4 and 3 in ~15 min last season, with over one-quarter of those points coming against Delaware State. MU needs his size but he's not going to step in and be Robert Jackson.
4) Rowsey ended up with a nice line but he really had a "two steps forward, one step back" type of game. Big shots, some decent play-making but too many TOs, too much driving to no where and several quick, forced shots. He's too important to this team to have a handful of unforced TOs in a big game.
5) Again, MU's offense needs ball movement. When MU started doubling Haas, he kicked it out, they moved it along the perimeter and got an open 3. MU needs to watch those possessions on a loop.
6) Let's get ready for Maui!
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1. I'm not discouraged after this game. If Froling can score, we will win a lot of games.
2. Freshmen clearly are not ready to contribute yet - hopefully some experience against the bunnies will help.
3. Haani continues to disappoint. Was at his worst tonite. We were dying for another guy to step up and score and he had nothing. I don't know if he had any boards either. Was running away from the ball in half court offense.
4. Rowsey and Howard need to average 20 ppg or the offense will really be in trouble.
It has been 2 Freakin games and in the first game he looked just fine. He took 9 shots...Not a small number just got swatted 3 times against the Tree Haas
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It has been 2 Freakin games and in the first game he looked just fine. He took 9 shots...Not a small number just got swatted 3 times against the Tree Haas. Also the 2 assists by Heldt being second on the team is just bad news. Ball movement was a big part of last year's offense. Markus touched on this in post game comments.....Thing is Markus plays the 1 a bit and he doesn't pass the ball to guys often
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People are misunderstanding me. I am not surprised by the outcome. I'm surprised that Scoop is acting all calm and rational.
Only at a 8% sliver of the moon today...
(https://www.timeanddate.com/scripts/moon.php?i=0.081&p=3.906)
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1. We got better today. We fought through adversity and some streaky shooting - just didn't have the ponies to bring it home.
2. Not sure you'll have a worse matchup all year than a Purdue team with 2 7-footers
3. Heldt is overmatched. Not everyone will have bigs like PU, but that wasn't pretty. Theo is still a freshman and it showed
4. That said, it was encouraging to see Hauser be able to hold his own in spurts.
5. Purdue will compete for the Big Ten crown. If you're going to drop a game, this was the one I would have circled.
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They were fine last night. Bad team matchup for us. Tough to play a team that talented/experienced early in the season with our young squad.
3 headed offensive monster may open up things for others as season rolls on
Can you imagine Purdue with swanigan? Jeesh
For those downplaying Purdue, you're foolish. That is a very good team.
No surprise who the boo birds are again. ::)
I happen to record some of the Duke-MSU game and Kentucky-Kansas. Right now I feel Purdue could beat all those teams. They have 2 bigs that can defend, Haas
can really pass out of the post and Harms is just scratching the service on his ability. Add the other seniors who all can shoot it and you have a team that could get to
the final 4 and give MSU a run for the Big Ten title. MU is what I thought they would be, Rowsey, Howard and Sam can play. The rest, will need to figure out how to
play. Hanif has not learned that you need a floater or a jumper, has neither. Sad to say, he looked the same as last year. Anim and Hanif like to slash to the basket,
against 2 7 footers, it did not work out. Against most other teams, it will be fine. On this board, some people think Matt might be better than Luke, no chance. Again, he will be better against smaller teams. He was totally outmatched yesterday. John is not coordinated enough yet on the D end, make take him a year or two.
Elliott to small, and Cain to skinny as well. It will be nice next year to be as big as most teams, as right now they are all to small. Froling, Hauser, Morrow, and Joey
will change the dynamics and if Bailey can play he might be the 2 guard next year. Now that would be a big line-up.
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What frustrates me is that Wojo still seems way too vanilla in his coaching. Haas is checking in? Better counter by sending Matt in to get dominated inside once again. You're playing right into Purdue's hands by coaching that way. Our best stretch of ball last night was when we went small at the end of the first half. We applied a good amount of pressure and got some steals that led to us cutting the lead to 2 (should have been tied).
Does anyone here think Sam would have done a worse job of defending Haas than Heldt?? In a limited sample, he didn't. And even if he gave you the same on defense as Heldt (allowing Haas to score every time) then AT LEAST we'd be able to make them pay on the other end because good luck having Haas trail Sam around the 3-point line. Either Purdue would roll the dice with Haas getting pulled outside consistently on defense or they'd have to just take him out. I can only recall one possession where Haas was defending Sacar and we got them in a pick and roll with Haas guarding Rowsey (or Markus). We ended up with points and never saw that again.
I'll concede that it's tough sledding and I'm not saying going small would have won us the game, but God damn at least think outside the box one time. When we're down 10-12, why not try what you saw had success in the first, as opposed to trotting out the same defense that you know will result in a Haas layup or wide open 3 and a non-threat in Matt on the offensive end. Such a shame we get Edwards his 4th foul with 13 minutes left and pose no threat the rest of the game.
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If Sam had spent 20 minutes guarding Haas, he would have fouled out. "Wojo should have made adjustments" Other than zoning, his options are limited. 8 guys played last night. Each one was smaller than the person he was guarding/was guarding him. And the problems would have been the same in the zone. Purdue was the better team last night. Full stop.
Now it is time for Wojo and company to take the lessons learned last night and work to fix them. During practice, I think I would run the offense and forbid Rowsey and Howard to shoot. Force the other players to get in the habit of making plays. Can Heldt guard most normal sized centers alone. He had better. Keep teaching. Keep winning every day. Get Cain ready to play. MU is going to play a lot of games in a short time. Going to need all nine players to contribute. Contrary to the 70's TV show, eight is not enough when playing back to back games.
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What frustrates me is that Wojo still seems way too vanilla in his coaching. Haas is checking in? Better counter by sending Matt in to get dominated inside once again. You're playing right into Purdue's hands by coaching that way.
Thank you. This was my issue last night. Before the game, I said that we likely needed to go small. Sam would need help defending their bigs, but a smaller guy would be more likely to draw offensive fouls and his quickness could exploit their bigs on the other end.
I felt like we never really adjusted. Steals kept it close in the first half but did anyone really feel like we belonged in that game at halftime? I sure didn't.
It was just a hope for turnovers, do damage from the outside plan. Defensively, we were a disaster in the second half. No ability to slow them, much less stop them.
It's tough, because I expected a loss, but it felt to me like we're the same team as last year with fewer offensive options. Same run and gun offense but without the ability to drive as well or establish a post presence, same sieve defense that couldn't defend the post or rotate fast enough.
If it's not working, try small ball and stick with it when Haas comes back in. Try zone, especially once Howard fouls out since you only have one midget to expose.
We were clearly outmatched personnel wise because of their bigs, but that's where coaching has to find a way to make it competitive. Yesterday just felt like rinse, repeat.
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I was fairly encouraged. There were so many times they made a shot and I thought, "I'd give them that all day." They just kept hitting a ton of tough shots.
I think the offense needs some time to gel. We didn't seem to get a ton of easy looks. Howard and Rowsey hit a bunch of contested shots.
It seems like every team just keeps hitting the tough shot against us.
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Thank you. This was my issue last night. Before the game, I said that we likely needed to go small. Sam would need help defending their bigs, but a smaller guy would be more likely to draw offensive fouls and his quickness could exploit their bigs on the other end.
I felt like we never really adjusted. Steals kept it close in the first half but did anyone really feel like we belonged in that game at halftime? I sure didn't.
It was just a hope for turnovers, do damage from the outside plan. Defensively, we were a disaster in the second half. No ability to slow them, much less stop them.
It's tough, because I expected a loss, but it felt to me like we're the same team as last year with fewer offensive options. Same run and gun offense but without the ability to drive as well or establish a post presence, same sieve defense that couldn't defend the post or rotate fast enough.
Purdue has played a lot of basketball together this summer and fall already. They are a senior laden team much like Wisconsin was last year. Have to be impressed
with there team. MU could have gone small, still would not have been a difference, they are just better. I am wondering if Froling will change the dynamics of the team at all???
If it's not working, try small ball and stick with it when Haas comes back in. Try zone, especially once Howard fouls out since you only have one midget to expose.
We were clearly outmatched personnel wise because of their bigs, but that's where coaching has to find a way to make it competitive. Yesterday just felt like rinse, repeat.
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Tonight sucked but I think Purdue beats us 100 times out of 100. Conversely, I think we are better than VCU, Georgia, Wisconsin, and Vermont. I still think we go 4-0 in those games.
Huh, hey?
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Wonder if jamal will see some minutes his way soon
I thought he was suppose to be the "best" of the four freshman.
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1.) For all the credit that Todd Smith gets (and rightfully so in many cases) I'm amazed that Haney is still a well-below-the-rim player. No improvement on his athleticism. Does he have knee/leg problems we don't know about? No explosion to the rim. His role is better suited as the Duane Wilson role -- come in to provide defense for 10-15 minutes, and can possibly get 10-12 points against lesser competition.
2.) We need to ban "bad matchup" from our vocabulary on this board. Any team that has experience and/or is talented at the game of basketball will be a bad matchup for MU this season.
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What frustrates me is that Wojo still seems way too vanilla in his coaching. Haas is checking in? Better counter by sending Matt in to get dominated inside once again. You're playing right into Purdue's hands by coaching that way. Our best stretch of ball last night was when we went small at the end of the first half. We applied a good amount of pressure and got some steals that led to us cutting the lead to 2 (should have been tied).
Does anyone here think Sam would have done a worse job of defending Haas than Heldt?? In a limited sample, he didn't. And even if he gave you the same on defense as Heldt (allowing Haas to score every time) then AT LEAST we'd be able to make them pay on the other end because good luck having Haas trail Sam around the 3-point line. Either Purdue would roll the dice with Haas getting pulled outside consistently on defense or they'd have to just take him out. I can only recall one possession where Haas was defending Sacar and we got them in a pick and roll with Haas guarding Rowsey (or Markus). We ended up with points and never saw that again.
I'll concede that it's tough sledding and I'm not saying going small would have won us the game, but God damn at least think outside the box one time. When we're down 10-12, why not try what you saw had success in the first, as opposed to trotting out the same defense that you know will result in a Haas layup or wide open 3 and a non-threat in Matt on the offensive end. Such a shame we get Edwards his 4th foul with 13 minutes left and pose no threat the rest of the game.
Thank you. This was my issue last night. Before the game, I said that we likely needed to go small. Sam would need help defending their bigs, but a smaller guy would be more likely to draw offensive fouls and his quickness could exploit their bigs on the other end.
I felt like we never really adjusted. Steals kept it close in the first half but did anyone really feel like we belonged in that game at halftime? I sure didn't.
It was just a hope for turnovers, do damage from the outside plan. Defensively, we were a disaster in the second half. No ability to slow them, much less stop them.
It's tough, because I expected a loss, but it felt to me like we're the same team as last year with fewer offensive options. Same run and gun offense but without the ability to drive as well or establish a post presence, same sieve defense that couldn't defend the post or rotate fast enough.
If it's not working, try small ball and stick with it when Haas comes back in. Try zone, especially once Howard fouls out since you only have one midget to expose.
We were clearly outmatched personnel wise because of their bigs, but that's where coaching has to find a way to make it competitive. Yesterday just felt like rinse, repeat.
We had one of our two best runs of the game when we went small to close out the first half...because Haas and Haarms both had to sit with 2 fouls each.
We already ask Sam to do enough. If you ask him to bang with a guy that has 5 inches and probably 75 lbs on him all game he's going to be toast by halftime. It can work for a 4 minute stretch. It will definitely not work for long runs.
Purdue is as balanced of a team as we'll play. If you want to go double Haas they'll just hit a bunch of 3s, which is what we saw in the last 10 minutes of the game. If you want to limit the 3 point line like MU did for the first 30 minutes of the game, then you're leaving a very good big (or 2) down low 1 on 1.
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This reminds me of the Wisconsin game from a year ago.
The Badgers were one of four opponents that scored at least 80 points against MU at home. (We gave up 81, 86 and 83 in wins against Fresno State, Seton Hall and Creighton.) Wisconsin scored 93 — putting up an incredible 1.31 points per possession (per KenPom.com) and shooting 64.9% on 2-pointers. Purdue only managed 1.23 ppp and 63.6% on 2-pointers.
Both games were also close at the half. We led the Badgers 40-35, trailed Purdue 32-30. Then the deluge. Wisconsin poured in 58 points in the second, Purdue scored 54. If that's defensive intensity, I'm not seeing it.
I sincerely hope this was our worst defensive performance of the season.
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1.) For all the credit that Todd Smith gets (and rightfully so in many cases) I'm amazed that Haney is still a well-below-the-rim player. No improvement on his athleticism. Does he have knee/leg problems we don't know about? No explosion to the rim. His role is better suited as the Duane Wilson role -- come in to provide defense for 10-15 minutes, and can possibly get 10-12 points against lesser competition.
2.) We need to ban "bad matchup" from our vocabulary on this board. Any team that has experience and/or is talented at the game of basketball will be a bad matchup for MU this season.
Agreed about Hannif. Also I was surprised how little muscle/bulk Heldt appears to have. He's a junior, not a freshman...his arms appear thinner than mine (and I'm 5'9, 160). It wasn't the lack of height as much as Haas easily overpowering him and backing him down right under the rim. That's a lack of strength...disappointing.
But overall, I was encouraged by the effort on defense and the fight we had. Can't play an 8 man rotation and have 4 or 5 of them be total non-factors offensively though.
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A lot better than I thought actually. Was really expecting a coast to coast blowout.
Two halves that were complete opposites. Defense was excellent in the first half, offense non-existent. Defense was porous in the second half, offense was en fuego in the second half.
Did not understand the decision to double team Haas. Yes, he was taking advantage and getting his with one on one coverage, but we had the rest of their team shut down. If the offense had been clicking in the first half, we would have had a double digit lead at the half. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Purdue shot 100% from the floor on possessions when we double teamed Haas. It was not working.
Sam defers too much....and then seems to force it when he doesn't defer.
Markus and Rowsey have the potential to win us any game. Unstoppable offense.
That Haas kid traveled almost every time he touched the ball. But that is what an experienced and dominant center looks like.
I thought Purdue would be slightly better this season than they were last season. I think I underestimated. That looks like a top 10 team to me.
I'm more confident about our team now than I was before the game. Let's go get dem Rams.
Agree with your thoughts. And, yes, Haas does travel a lot. Even the Purdue fans in the row behind us agreed with that. But, he is a load and RS frosh Haarms from Amsterdam is no slouch either.
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Haven't read through this thread so I'm sure I'm repeating some of the stuff posted in here. But overall I'm encouraged by last night.
I wish I could say the same thing. I want this team to win more than just about anything not related to God or my family. I bleed blue and gold and we've been doing just a bit too much bleeding lately. I know what I am about to say will aggravate some people, but, it's right now how this long-time Warrior feels.
While I like Wojo and I think whatever we're going to be, he's going to get us there, I have one take-away from last night.
I AM TIRED OF REBUILDING!!!!!!!!!!!
Buzz left the cupboard bare. I know that. Wojo has done a remarkable job of raising our recruiting visibility and getting us into places that we haven't been in awhile.
But, for the third year in a row, we "have a young team." At some point this has to gel or we have some problems.
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Thank you. This was my issue last night. Before the game, I said that we likely needed to go small. Sam would need help defending their bigs, but a smaller guy would be more likely to draw offensive fouls and his quickness could exploit their bigs on the other end.
I felt like we never really adjusted. Steals kept it close in the first half but did anyone really feel like we belonged in that game at halftime? I sure didn't.
It was just a hope for turnovers, do damage from the outside plan. Defensively, we were a disaster in the second half. No ability to slow them, much less stop them.
It's tough, because I expected a loss, but it felt to me like we're the same team as last year with fewer offensive options. Same run and gun offense but without the ability to drive as well or establish a post presence, same sieve defense that couldn't defend the post or rotate fast enough.
If it's not working, try small ball and stick with it when Haas comes back in. Try zone, especially once Howard fouls out since you only have one midget to expose.
We were clearly outmatched personnel wise because of their bigs, but that's where coaching has to find a way to make it competitive. Yesterday just felt like rinse, repeat.
I absolutely thought we belonged at half time. The job we did locking down the perimeter in the first half was a thing of beauty. While he didn't look it last night, Haas is like their 4th best player. Allowing Haas to get his but locking up everyone else was a sound defensive strategy. If our shots were falling in the first half, we would have been up double digits.
Haanif was trying to draw contact on Haas in the first half to get him in foul trouble. I was impressed by his ability to defend without fouling, he's much improved in that area. If HC had been successful, we might have won the game.
Where i think we should have gone small was when V Edwards picked up his 4th foul. V Edwards is their best player and we needed Hauser, our best defender, on him. With him on the bench and Eifert in, Hauser could have switched to Haas and just about anyone could have taken Eifert.
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2.) We need to ban "bad matchup" from our vocabulary on this board. Any team that has experience and/or is talented at the game of basketball will be a bad matchup for MU this season.
Not in this case. Purdue is the anti-Marquette. Their three starting guards are all 3pt defense specialists. Very few teams defend the three point line better than they do. Throw in two offensive 7 footers and you have Marquettes worst nightmare. I liked our chances better against Nova than i did against Purdue. And this isn't hindsight, I've been saying this since Purdue was announced as our opponent.
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I don't know. 51.7 eFG% when your opponent doesn't hit a single three in the half is pretty dicey defense, especially when they are one of the best long-range shooting teams in the country.
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I don't know. 51.7 eFG% when your opponent doesn't hit a single three in the half is pretty dicey defense, especially when they are one of the best long-range shooting teams in the country.
It's the exact same defense opponents used on us several times last season. Let Fischer get his but lockdown everyone else. When done successfully, we lost every time.
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Not in this case. Purdue is the anti-Marquette. Their three starting guards are all 3pt defense specialists. Very few teams defend the three point line better than they do. Throw in two offensive 7 footers and you have Marquettes worst nightmare. I liked our chances better against Nova than i did against Purdue. And this isn't hindsight, I've been saying this since Purdue was announced as our opponent.
OK, I'll bite. What experienced, talented team is Marquette's best daydream from a match-up perspective?
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I don't know. 51.7 eFG% when your opponent doesn't hit a single three in the half is pretty dicey defense, especially when they are one of the best long-range shooting teams in the country.
I don't think this is completely fair. They didn't hit a 3 because we crowded 3 point shooters in the first half. We didn't allow more than 1 good look that I can remember. They got a lot down low, but that was the gameplan and we saw why when we started doubling the post in the 2nd half and the result was a ton of open threes. Being much smaller than your opponent doesn't equal bad defense. If we play defense like we did last night in the first half, against teams that don't have a dominant center, then the defense will be fine.
The 2nd half was awful.
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I wish I could say the same thing. I want this team to win more than just about anything not related to God or my family. I bleed blue and gold and we've been doing just a bit too much bleeding lately. I know what I am about to say will aggravate some people, but, it's right now how this long-time Warrior feels.
While I like Wojo and I think whatever we're going to be, he's going to get us there, I have one take-away from last night.
I AM TIRED OF REBUILDING!!!!!!!!!!!
Buzz left the cupboard bare. I know that. Wojo has done a remarkable job of raising our recruiting visibility and getting us into places that we haven't been in awhile.
But, for the third year in a row, we "have a young team." At some point this has to gel or we have some problems.
Last year's team wasn't young, not even close. Look at the rotation.
Luke - Senior
Katin - 5th Year Senior
JJJ - Senior
Duane - RS Junior
Rowsey - RS Junior
Yes, Howard and Hauser started and played big minutes, but that was experienced team.
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I'm not upset or, frankly, surprised. As bilsu pointed out, we have only 3 players on our current bench who can be counted on to be solid D1 contributors, and 2 of them are under 6' shooting guards.
What does surprise me, though, is that TAMU, 82 and others feel better about this year's team after watching last night's game. Pomeroy had us losing by 1, Vegas by 4 or 5. Instead we were blown out. In addition, there were no pleasant surprises. Sam, Markus and Rowsey can play and make tough shots - but we knew that. No one else looked like a high D1 contributor to me. Sacar, Cheatham and Heldt (all in their 3rd year) looked liked back ups at best. Elliot and John are freshmen and the jury will be out for a while - but they're not impact players. Cain didn't even play. I hope Froling is a stud - if not this will be a frustrating year.
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I wish I could say the same thing. I want this team to win more than just about anything not related to God or my family. I bleed blue and gold and we've been doing just a bit too much bleeding lately. I know what I am about to say will aggravate some people, but, it's right now how this long-time Warrior feels.
While I like Wojo and I think whatever we're going to be, he's going to get us there, I have one take-away from last night.
I AM TIRED OF REBUILDING!!!!!!!!!!!
Buzz left the cupboard bare. I know that. Wojo has done a remarkable job of raising our recruiting visibility and getting us into places that we haven't been in awhile.
But, for the third year in a row, we "have a young team." At some point this has to gel or we have some problems.
I honestly feel like, in hindsight, the Ellenson brothers set the program back. In the moment, it made perfect sense to sign them both and if a similar situation arose, I'd expect Wojo to do the same thing. You never pass up an opportunity to bring in a talent like Henry.
That said, Wally provided nothing on the court and Henry was at MU for one unmemorable season where he was basically auditioning for NBA teams. Again, it was the right call to bring in Wally, which led to Henry, but long-term, it didn't help the program and potentially hurt the program. Yes, 2015-16 would likely have been ugly, but going 20-13 didn't add up to anything even with Henry. If the scholarships given to the Ellenson brothers were given to true freshmen, MU would (in theory) have another junior and senior on the current roster. We could theorize all day about who those players could be and how they'd be contributing, etc but at the end of the day, MU's best recruit in 30 years ended up hurting the program in the big picture.
Just to reiterate once again, signing Henry was the "right" move but it did nothing to move the program forward and those schollies given to the Ellensons are a big reason why MU is once again "a young team."
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I'm not upset or, frankly, surprised. As bilsu pointed out, we have only 3 players on our current bench who can be counted on to be solid D1 contributors, and 2 of them are under 6' shooting guards.
What does surprise me, though, is that TAMU, 82 and others feel better about this year's team after watching last night's game. Pomeroy had us losing by 1, Vegas by 4 or 5. Instead we were blown out. In addition, there were no pleasant surprises. Sam, Markus and Rowsey can play and make tough shots - but we knew that. No one else looked like a high D1 contributor to me. Sacar, Cheatham and Heldt (all in their 3rd year) looked liked back ups at best. Elliot and John are freshmen and the jury will be out for a while - but they're not impact players. Cain didn't even play. I hope Froling is a stud - if not this will be a frustrating year.
It was a comfortable win for Purdue, but this wasn't a blowout. It was a 1 pt game 25 minutes in and within 6 with under 10 to play. Plus for everything that matters an L is an L - some ways might even be less heartbreaking than if we'd lost by 1 on a last second shot.
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It's hard for me to put my finger on exactly why, but I'm really not disappointed about this loss at all. I expected Purdue to beat us by double digits and thought it could potentially get pretty ugly. As others have said, they are a major matchup problem for us. I was pleasantly surprised that we hung in as long as we did but felt all along that they would pull away eventually. Going forward, I'm a bit nervous about how much we will be relying on Howard and Rowsey shooting threes and hoping everyone else can play some defense.
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OK, I'll bite. What experienced, talented team is Marquette's best daydream from a match-up perspective?
First thought is Xavier. They do a poor job defending the perimeter, have limited interior presence (though Tyrique Jones has looked really good to start the season so I may have to reevaluate in a few weeks), have a PG who can't score, and rely on a single player for a majority of their offense.
Purdue is the worst matchup that we will see all season. Not the best team, but the worst matchup.
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I don't think this is completely fair. They didn't hit a 3 because we crowded 3 point shooters in the first half. We didn't allow more than 1 good look that I can remember. They got a lot down low, but that was the gameplan and we saw why when we started doubling the post in the 2nd half and the result was a ton of open threes. Being much smaller than your opponent doesn't equal bad defense. If we play defense like we did last night in the first half, against teams that don't have a dominant center, then the defense will be fine.
The 2nd half was awful.
They didn't hit a three and still had a 51.7 eFG%. That is a problem. Yes, we did a good job on the perimeter in the first half, but because of that we allowed Purdue to go 16/24 inside the arc. No matter how good your three point defense is, you won't win many games if your opponents are getting interior baskets at that rate. And that's on the heels of Mount St. Mary's shooting even better than Purdue did inside the arc.
When we harassed Purdue on the perimeter, they destroyed us inside. When we doubled inside, they destroyed us on the perimeter. And while Mount St. Mary's couldn't hit a three to save their lives, they had no trouble scoring inside, and that wasn't just against the youth lineup in the second half as Jay Bee pointed out but also against our first team players.
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I honestly feel like, in hindsight, the Ellenson brothers set the program back. In the moment, it made perfect sense to sign them both and if a similar situation arose, I'd expect Wojo to do the same thing. You never pass up an opportunity to bring in a talent like Henry.
Merritts, I hear what you are saying. Likewise, I'd go after the Ellensons if I was Wojo in a heartbeat. I just would.
That said, I suspect Wojo in his heart of hearts believed Henry would be a two-year Warrior. Had he stayed last year and with what we had, we would have been a very, very good team. He didn't and, well, that happens. We're rebuilding.
Bringing Henry in proved we could recruit with the "big boys" and was the first chip in getting us back to where we belonged -- being Duke with a bad attitude. I have to believe the confidence of landing a Henry helped seal the Hauser brothers, Markus Howard and Andrew Rousey. It got us in the game with Quentin Grimes, which is someplace we had not been in a long time. The more at bats we get with five star and high four star talent, the better we will be.
Final thought -- Henry was introduced to the crowd at last night's game. Nice to see him at an MU event and suggests some of the initial bad feeling when Wally went away has passed.
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What does surprise me, though, is that TAMU, 82 and others feel better about this year's team after watching last night's game.
I feel our defense improved (until we just got worn down late). I feel we competed really hard. I feel we hung in very well against the defending BT champs who just might win it again. I feel if Froling is any good we will have a winning BE record and be a bubble team. We have weaknesses that will be exposed, but we also have strengths that I'm hopeful can help overcome the weaknesses most games. Haani remains troublesome, and Matt is a 10-15 min backup, but I liked what I saw from John.
Maybe I'm wrong about all of that. But I still prefer it to the alternative: We're 1-1; ipso fatso, we're doomed!
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What does surprise me, though, is that TAMU, 82 and others feel better about this year's team after watching last night's game. Pomeroy had us losing by 1, Vegas by 4 or 5. Instead we were blown out.
Pomeroy and Vegas are great for "in general here's how far apart these two teams are talentwise." They don't look at matchups at all. I was expecting a 25 point Iowa-style coast to coast beatdown. Instead, we were down 2 (should have been tied) at halftime, down 1 with 15 minutes left, and down 6 with less than 10 minutes left. The game always felt in reach until the last 5 minutes. Our two bigs and our best offensive player fouled out and Purdue was able to extend the lead at the end. I don't consider this a blow out at all.
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Pomeroy and Vegas are great for "in general here's how far apart these two teams are talentwise." They don't look at matchups at all. I was expecting a 25 point Iowa-style coast to coast beatdown. Instead, we were down 2 (should have been tied) at halftime, down 1 with 15 minutes left, and down 6 with less than 10 minutes left. The game always felt in reach until the last 5 minutes. Our two bigs and our best offensive player fouled out and Purdue was able to extend the lead at the end. I don't consider this a blow out at all.
I agree that MU didn't get blown out. However, I'd disagree that the game felt "in reach" for most of the second half.
MU cut the lead to 1 with about 15 to play and Purdue quickly responded with a 9-1 run and that was pretty much that. MU got within 6 a couple times but, to me, it never felt like MU was poised to make a run down the stretch.
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I agree that MU didn't get blown out. However, I'd disagree that the game felt "in reach" for most of the second half.
MU cut the lead to 1 with about 15 to play and Purdue quickly responded with a 9-1 run and that was pretty much that. MU got within 6 a couple times but, to me, it never felt like MU was poised to make a run down the stretch.
+1
The second half never really felt close, and after that run the game was over. After that run, we scored on 5 straight possessions. You would think that would cut into the lead, but it was at 9 before those 5 possessions and it was at 9 after those 5 possessions because we couldn't stop them to save our lives. No matter how hot we got, we were never going to catch them.
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I agree that MU didn't get blown out. However, I'd disagree that the game felt "in reach" for most of the second half.
MU cut the lead to 1 with about 15 to play and Purdue quickly responded with a 9-1 run and that was pretty much that. MU got within 6 a couple times but, to me, it never felt like MU was poised to make a run down the stretch.
Any time you are within two buckets of tying the score, you are within reach.
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Any time you are within two buckets of tying the score, you are within reach.
What about when you can't stop the other team from scoring? ;)
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The game was only close in the first half because Purdue couldn't get a three to drop. I believe they were 0-6 from three in the first half and I don't think it was because of great defense by MU. They hit just 2 of those and they are up 8 at half, and the game never feels all that close. Once Purdue finally got a couple 3's to drop, they essentially were blowing MU out the rest of the way.
I'm surprised how many people on here are more encouraged after last night's game. Purdue is a good team and a tough matchup, but MU's help defense was awful, double teams were weak and late, rotations were late and slow, Heldt/John combined for 1 rebound in 26 minutes, and Rowsey/Howard still can't stay in front of anybody. Seems like the defense hasn't improved at all, IMO.
Another big concern is the lack of offense outside of Howard, Rowsey, and Hauser. Howard & Rowsey are ridiculous offensive players but this team is not going to beat a quality opponent when one of those two has an off night. They are damn good, but it's a lot to ask them to combine for 50 points every game. I guess we can hope Froling cures all weaknesses, but it's no sure thing.
Seems to me the offense will be worse than last year and no real improvement defensively. I see the ceiling of this team as sneaking into the tourney as a 10 seed or worse.
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Lenny
I am not surprised that folks were encouraged by last night. The same crowd that is always optimistic. IMO, you have to be a big time optimist to not be discouraged after last night.
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Any time you are within two buckets of tying the score, you are within reach.
We were never within two buckets of tying the score with the ball after the 9-1 run. We cut it to 6 twice, both times Purdue answered with an immediate three. Anyone that felt close after the 13:00 mark is way more optimistic than I am, and I'm about as optimistic a Marquette fan as they come.
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I know Rowsey is frustrating, but MU fans should thank the Lord every night that he's there, because without him, MU would be lucky to win a few BE games this season. Where are all those points going to come from next season?
Few will agree, but it looks like MU has 3 legit, high D1 players on the roster. None of the Freshman look to have a high ceiling, and when you're rebuilding with four year players, you can't afford a dud class.
IMO, Wojo still isn't a good coach overall, but having season tickets in a prime location now really lets you see the difference in talent between Purdue and MU.
Did Heldt do any weight training in the off-season?
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1.) For all the credit that Todd Smith gets (and rightfully so in many cases) I'm amazed that Haney is still a well-below-the-rim player. No improvement on his athleticism. Does he have knee/leg problems we don't know about? No explosion to the rim. His role is better suited as the Duane Wilson role -- come in to provide defense for 10-15 minutes, and can possibly get 10-12 points against lesser competition.
2.) We need to ban "bad matchup" from our vocabulary on this board. Any team that has experience and/or is talented at the game of basketball will be a bad matchup for MU this season.
Amen! I know everytime i read the after game thread here after a loss the term "bad matchup" will be prevalent. I find it tiring and all it is is an excuse. Plain and simple.
Another one is "next year". I get the optimism, and rightly so..but I'm tired of hearing "next year" under Wojo's tenure. How about the "right now"? Do we keep waiting for "next year"?
Yes..it's one loss early in the year, but I saw someone in a post earlier say "I was expecting a loss". Stop and think about that for a minute..that's what this fanbase has become, because the product is such that it's resorted to "expecting a loss"? Oh how the mighty have fallen..that's truly sad.
That being said..I think we will learn a lot more about this team in Maui..a first game loss and that would be very telling..oh wait..Nvm, it will be because VCU was a "bad matchup"..so that will excuse it. ::)
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I know Rowsey is frustrating, but MU fans should thank the Lord every night that he's there, because without him, MU would be lucky to win a few BE games this season. Where are all those points going to come from next season?
Few will agree, but it looks like MU has 3 legit, high D1 players on the roster. None of the Freshman look to have a high ceiling, and when you're rebuilding with four year players, you can't afford a dud class.
IMO, Wojo still isn't a good coach overall, but having season tickets in a prime location now really lets you see the difference in talent between Purdue and MU.
Did Heldt do any weight training in the off-season?
Completely disagree with the freshmen having a high celing. Elliot and Cain have a ton of potential. Super high ceiling. Unfortunately, they also have lower floors.
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MUeagle
What was your take on HC during his freshman season? Many on here thought the sky was the limit. Some on here stated he was at his ceiling. Curious on what you thought of HC two years ago. If memory serves me, my self, and possibly Lenny or another old guard poster, stated he looked like Rony Eford to us.
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MUeagle
What was your take on HC during his freshman season? Many on here thought the sky was the limit. Some on here stated he was at his ceiling. Curious on what you thought of HC two years ago. If memory serves me, my self, and possibly Lenny or another old guard poster, stated he looked like Rony Eford to us.
Haanif was never going to be more than a solid role player.
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MUeagle
What was your take on HC during his freshman season? Many on here thought the sky was the limit. Some on here stated he was at his ceiling. Curious on what you thought of HC two years ago. If memory serves me, my self, and possibly Lenny or another old guard poster, stated he looked like Rony Eford to us.
Cheatham brings a lot to the table but it just doesn't all add up. He's got some herky-jerky penetrating ability but he still struggles to kick/dish when he drives. He can get to the rim but his lack of athleticism often prevents him from scoring. He's a good spot-up shooter but he shoots a set-shot that is s l o w to get out of his hand. The tools are there but he still has the same limits as when he got to MU.
Additionally, despite his talent, he's not an ideal fit for this current MU team. He's obviously not a big body, he's not a slasher, he can't go get his own shot and when he penetrates his inability to pass (along with Heldt clogging the lane) limits his impact offensively. He's missing a pull-up game but, again, there's not a whole lot of "up" to his game. When MU had Henry and Luke drawing defenders, it really opened things up for Haanif. With an offense based around a couple of under-sized guards, there's no one drawing that type of attention that would free things up for HC to utilize his strengths.
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Lenny
I am not surprised that folks were encouraged by last night. The same crowd that is always optimistic. IMO, you have to be a big time optimist to not be discouraged after last night.
I think the next three games will give us a much better snapshot of how the non- Froling part of the schedule will pan out. Hard not to be disappointed with HC.
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Amen! I know everytime i read the after game thread here after a loss the term "bad matchup" will be prevalent. I find it tiring and all it is is an excuse. Plain and simple.
Another one is "next year". I get the optimism, and rightly so..but I'm tired of hearing "next year" under Wojo's tenure. How about the "right now"? Do we keep waiting for "next year"?
Yes..it's one loss early in the year, but I saw someone in a post earlier say "I was expecting a loss". Stop and think about that for a minute..that's what this fanbase has become, because the product is such that it's resorted to "expecting a loss"? Oh how the mighty have fallen..that's truly sad.
That being said..I think we will learn a lot more about this team in Maui..a first game loss and that would be very telling..oh wait..Nvm, it will be because VCU was a "bad matchup"..so that will excuse it. ::)
1. I don't know about others, but when I say bad matchup I only use it when it is truly a bad matchup. Go read my preview on Purdue on PaintTouches from a month ago. Was saying it long before the results of last night.
2. VCU is not a bad matchup, it's a good matchup for us. If we lose, that would be devastating to our potential for this season.
3. I have been expecting losses in certain games since I was old enough to understand sports. It's called being realistic. I have never been fortunate enough to be a fan of team that was the favorite to win every game in a season.
4. I understand being tired of hearing "next year." I'm tired of it too. If it doesn't happen after year 5, that's when I personally will move from tired to impatient.
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We're going to be fine, bad matchup
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Completely disagree with the freshmen having a high celing. Elliot and Cain have a ton of potential. Super high ceiling. Unfortunately, they also have lower floors.
Floors are always lower than ceilings.
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IMO, Wojo still isn't a good coach overall, but having season tickets in a prime location now really lets you see the difference in talent between Purdue and MU.
Neck girth?
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Floors are always lower than ceilings.
The ceiling is the roof.
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TAMU
What gives you optimism that things are going the right direction? I am not saying they are not, but curious on what you think the progress has been the last two years. I have stated several times that I like that Wojo swung for the fences on Grimes. IMO, getting Henry, Marcus and Joey are positives in the big picture. That said, Henry season was a bust, it will at least be two bust years for Marcus and we will see how Joey is as college player.
I am trying to be a glass half full guy, but struggling on how to get there. I'm hoping you can share tangible insights and not the typical Scoop talk.
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One interesting thing I noticed about Purdue. Only one of their starting 5 from last night was a top 100 player per the 247 Composite. Haas was #87 in 2014. The two Edwards were both in the top 150. Mathias was around 250 and Thompson was sub 350. Painter has done a good job identifying talent that works in his system and developing them over the years.
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We were never within two buckets of tying the score with the ball after the 9-1 run. We cut it to 6 twice, both times Purdue answered with an immediate three. Anyone that felt close after the 13:00 mark is way more optimistic than I am, and I'm about as optimistic a Marquette fan as they come.
Technically, two 3fg would have tied it. That is how I read it.
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TAMU
What gives you optimism that things are going the right direction? I am not saying they are not, but curious on what you think the progress has been the last two years. I have stated several times that I like that Wojo swung for the fences on Grimes. IMO, getting Henry, Marcus and Joey are positives in the big picture. That said, Henry season was a bust, it will at least be two bust years for Marcus and we will see how Joey is as college player.
I am trying to be a glass half full guy, but struggling on how to get there. I'm hoping you can share tangible insights and not the typical Scoop talk.
Goose - I agree, this year is going to somewhere between ok to not great (same as last year really but probably more difficult without Luke and KR)...hopefully the team improves as the year goes on and we make a step change with Froling. IMO this is all about next year at this point with some strong reinforcements with Morrow and hopefully Joey.
I hope the boys see how much stronger they need to get....compare pictures of Divincenzo year to year and then do the same with HC and Heldt as examples.
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During practice, I think I would run the offense and forbid Rowsey and Howard to shoot. Force the other players to get in the habit of making plays.
+1
To me, it was glaring how much the offense relied on Rowsey and Howard. Sam stepped up occasionally, but literally no one else even looked like they wanted to shoot. Well except Haani a few times but that didn’t work out so well. He continues his stat stuffing against the cupcakes and disappearing act against the big boys. I hope that changes at some point this season.
But back to the point, I would run drills in practice that force the others to shoot and make plays. So what if they turn it over, etc. That’s what practice is for. We can’t have 3 scorers only every game. Someone else mentioned that against teams that aren’t as good as Purdue, maybe others would have been able to step up more...could be some truth to that but really need these young guys to gain confidence, and fast, with all the important upcoming games.
We used to have really good big guys in practice who could score at will but didn’t seem interested in offensive rebounding. So our coach instructed the offense (without telling the bigs), to not pass them the ball. If they wanted to score, they had to do it off of an offensive rebound. Let’s just say that the bigs figured it out quickly, got really mad, and coach yelled at them and said to get a rebound then. Point is, I hope Wojo is doing things like this in practice.
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unrelated to the PU game but VCU plays Virginia next hopefully Virginia can smack them
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TAMU
What gives you optimism that things are going the right direction? I am not saying they are not, but curious on what you think the progress has been the last two years. I have stated several times that I like that Wojo swung for the fences on Grimes. IMO, getting Henry, Marcus and Joey are positives in the big picture. That said, Henry season was a bust, it will at least be two bust years for Marcus and we will see how Joey is as college player.
I am trying to be a glass half full guy, but struggling on how to get there. I'm hoping you can share tangible insights and not the typical Scoop talk.
You can go back and check my posts if you like but I have always held that my expectation when Wojo was hired was a dismal first season, an improved second season, back in the tournament by the third season, a step back in the fourth season, and return to the tournament in the 5th season with an established foundation for a long tournament streak with deep runs in the tournament. So far, we have been right on schedule.
The step back in the fourth season might seem odd, but at the time I was expecting that our highly ranked 2013 class + Luke was going to be graduating at the end of the 3rd season. With such a big class departing it seemed likely that we might take a step back. Especially given how historically hard it has been for us to find a center like Luke.
I posted this a while back but I believe there are three ways to win at a high level in today's college basketball:
1. Recruit one and done talent. The only two schools that can legitimately do this in today's game is Kentucky and Duke.
2. Get good, non-one and done talent and get old. This is your Villanovas, Louisvilles, Purdues, Wisconsins, etc.
3. A combo of the two. Kansas, Michigan State, Arizona, North Carolina, etc.
I know the waiting is excruciating, but we haven't been allowed to get old yet. Wojo's first class are juniors, our best players are sophomores, and our bench is primarily freshmen. With us only losing Rowsey next season and gaining Morrow, Joey, and Bailey, I see a team that is going to be a top 25 team and have a chance to make a deep run in the tournament. The year after that, I see us only losing two meh seniors in Haanif and Heldt and likely gaining some quality freshmen given the players we are in on for the 2019 class. We will be in position to make a deeper run then. I can't see beyond that at the moment, but it has the makings of a strong foundation for high level success.
We are only two games into this season. Until I see something that disrupts my vision of the 18-19 and 19-20 seasons, I am still on board. I'm tired....because rebuilding is exhausting...but I still like where we are heading.
The one concern I have at the moment for the future is the PG position. Howard and Elliott haven't earned my confidence as primary ballhandlers with these first two games. But it has also only been two games and both are nursing nagging injuries so I'm not ready to declare that we need a new PG next year yet.
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unrelated to the PU game but VCU plays Virginia next hopefully Virginia can smack them
Actually, it would be better for us if VCU smacks Virginia. Makes our game against them look a lot better.
That being said, I expect VCU to get smacked.
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#TrustWojosProcess
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Technically, two 3fg would have tied it. That is how I read it.
I get that, but we never had the ball in that position. When you get it to 6 and it's back to 9 before you have a chance to cut the lead further, it's not like it's really a two-possession game because by the end of the possession (their turn with the ball) it's already extended back to three.
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Pomeroy and Vegas are great for "in general here's how far apart these two teams are talentwise." They don't look at matchups at all. I was expecting a 25 point Iowa-style coast to coast beatdown. Instead, we were down 2 (should have been tied) at halftime, down 1 with 15 minutes left, and down 6 with less than 10 minutes left. The game always felt in reach until the last 5 minutes. Our two bigs and our best offensive player fouled out and Purdue was able to extend the lead at the end. I don't consider this a blow out at all.
To me, that game never felt in reach last night even when we made the run at the end of the first half when both bigs were on the bench. I knew they were going to dominate the second half as it was obvious from the get go that Purdue was just bigger, stronger, more experienced and an overall better team.
Sadly, I thought we played as good as we could play against them and still lost by 15. I get Purdue is a very good team but the "bad matchup" mantra is an excuse. I expected a bigger, better, more skilled Marquette team at this stage of the Wojo era. Instead it is wait until next year.
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To me, that game never felt in reach last night even when we made the run at the end of the first half when both bigs were on the bench. I knew they were going to dominate the second half as it was obvious from the get go that Purdue was just bigger, stronger, more experienced and an overall better team.
+1
It felt like Wisconsin last year when Happ sat nearly the entire first half. We came out with a 5-point lead and my first response at halftime was that it wasn't enough. Not surprisingly, they decimated us in the second with Happ available.
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The physical domination felt like the South Carolina game. Marquette competed, but the other team was physically bigger and stronger while being equally skilled.
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You can go back and check my posts if you like but I have always held that my expectation when Wojo was hired was a dismal first season, an improved second season, back in the tournament by the third season, a step back in the fourth season, and return to the tournament in the 5th season with an established foundation for a long tournament streak with deep runs in the tournament. So far, we have been right on schedule.
The step back in the fourth season might seem odd, but at the time I was expecting that our highly ranked 2013 class + Luke was going to be graduating at the end of the 3rd season. With such a big class departing it seemed likely that we might take a step back. Especially given how historically hard it has been for us to find a center like Luke.
I posted this a while back but I believe there are three ways to win at a high level in today's college basketball:
1. Recruit one and done talent. The only two schools that can legitimately do this in today's game is Kentucky and Duke.
2. Get good, non-one and done talent and get old. This is your Villanovas, Louisvilles, Purdues, Wisconsins, etc.
3. A combo of the two. Kansas, Michigan State, Arizona, North Carolina, etc.
I know the waiting is excruciating, but we haven't been allowed to get old yet. Wojo's first class are juniors, our best players are sophomores, and our bench is primarily freshmen. With us only losing Rowsey next season and gaining Morrow, Joey, and Bailey, I see a team that is going to be a top 25 team and have a chance to make a deep run in the tournament. The year after that, I see us only losing two meh seniors in Haanif and Heldt and likely gaining some quality freshmen given the players we are in on for the 2019 class. We will be in position to make a deeper run then. I can't see beyond that at the moment, but it has the makings of a strong foundation for high level success.
We are only two games into this season. Until I see something that disrupts my vision of the 18-19 and 19-20 seasons, I am still on board. I'm tired....because rebuilding is exhausting...but I still like where we are heading.
The one concern I have at the moment for the future is the PG position. Howard and Elliott haven't earned my confidence as primary ballhandlers with these first two games. But it has also only been two games and both are nursing nagging injuries so I'm not ready to declare that we need a new PG next year yet.
I agree with you, this year MU is to young and not deep. Physically small, different next year and the following. Better look for a grad point guard for next year, it might help to get a seasoned player instead of a frosh. Ellenson hurt Wojo leaving early as well as Carter. Has some talent but not enough. Bailey could be the X
factor next year. One thing I must say, I do not think there is a better team in the Big East better then Purdue. No team has there size. One stat discouraging is 26 out of 29 possessions in the second half they scored. I do not know why but they come out of the locker room in the second half and get squashed. Happened a great deal of the time last year as well, 54 points in the second half???
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A bunch of you pissed and moaned that we WERENT doubling the 7'3" center.
So we double him.... and then the same guys piss and moan that they are hitting open shots on kick outs.... whaaaaat did you think was going to happen??
I get the D is a concern. But we were playing a team that is almost equal to us in shooting abilities. Were you really expecting them to miss open 3's?
Sorry I've been at work all day and haven't gotten to read the rest of the posts and this is probably a small subset of people. But it's a sentiment I am seeing frequently.
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TAMU
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Some of your points are quite valid, but not quite sure on how going backwards in year four makes sense in the big plan. On paper next year would appear to look better, but many on here were saying that last year. I guess the over the top optimism of some clouds the big picture to me.
I have said many times that I can stomach a rebuild if the end product is a new and improved version of the previous guys. Aside from recruiting nice kids, which is fine, a long way to go to match previous guy's bar. I expect a losing season this season and hope you are right on the future.
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The defense to start the year worries me. Rowsey, Cheatham, Sacar, Heldt have been in the program 3 years. Howard and Hauser are on their second year. That's our main 6 players.
I guess at what point does Wojo change the scheme to his players. Maybe he has and we just are that bad collectively on defense. I just have a tough time reading that "Wojo doesn't have the players to fit his defensive system." At some point, it may just be a poor system.
I also don't like the roster construction. We have 2.5 red shirts on the team right now and an open roster spot. That really hurts the depth. We saw that last night with the foul trouble. Even when Froling gets back, it won't be a very deep team. We've never had a full 13 with Wojo, have we?
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Here's the problem. If this were an isolated incident, I'd be a lot more forgiving of the defense. But just 5 days ago, Mount St. Mary's shot 16/23 on two-point field goals against us. Our interior defense is terrible. Yes, we have been better defending the three, but if we are allowing teams to score at will on us, and we are and it isn't just Purdue, then we are back in last year's boat where we have to outscore every opponent.
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Here's the problem. If this were an isolated incident, I'd be a lot more forgiving of the defense. But just 5 days ago, Mount St. Mary's shot 16/23 on two-point field goals against us. Our interior defense is terrible. Yes, we have been better defending the three, but if we are allowing teams to score at will on us, and we are and it isn't just Purdue, then we are back in last year's boat where we have to outscore every opponent.
Lets see how they play against VCU, different team, quick smaller pressing team, no real bigs. New coach have no idea how they play
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TAMU
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Some of your points are quite valid, but not quite sure on how going backwards in year four makes sense in the big plan. On paper next year would appear to look better, but many on here were saying that last year. I guess the over the top optimism of some clouds the big picture to me.
I have said many times that I can stomach a rebuild if the end product is a new and improved version of the previous guys. Aside from recruiting nice kids, which is fine, a long way to go to match previous guy's bar. I expect a losing season this season and hope you are right on the future.
Oh I don't think going backwards in year 4 is a good thing, I just looked at our roster and said "I think we are going to graduate 4 starters (including our first true center in years) in 2017." Most programs will take at least a small step backwards if that happens. Now due to transfers and such it only ended up being three starters graduating in 2017. I'm sure there were people last season who said we would be better this season. I personally wasn't one of them. Losing Katin, Luke, and JJJ and gaining a bunch of three star freshmen is unlikely to result in a better season. That being said, I think it is too early to be able to definitively say how good this team is.
Agreed on your second paragraph. Wojo cannot hold a candle to Buzz' on court success yet. I'm hopeful that he will eventually surpass him and will not be satisfied until he does. I think when all is said and done, Wojo will be viewed as the better hire of the two of them. Fair or not, I put a lot of weight when I judge a coach in the state he leaves the program. Buzz had great on court success and then left the program a mess in need of a rebuild. Cuonzo just did the same thing at Cal. My hope is that Wojo will have that level of on court success and build the program so it can sustain that level of success for years to come.
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Here's the problem. If this were an isolated incident, I'd be a lot more forgiving of the defense. But just 5 days ago, Mount St. Mary's shot 16/23 on two-point field goals against us. Our interior defense is terrible. Yes, we have been better defending the three, but if we are allowing teams to score at will on us, and we are and it isn't just Purdue, then we are back in last year's boat where we have to outscore every opponent.
Most of that 16/23 occurred after Marquette had built a 36 point lead. I'm not saying the interior defense is good by any stretch, but I'm not sure that particular stat is that meaningful.
The guarding the three better is why I'm encouraged about the defense. Last season we couldn't stop people inside or outside. This season it seems like we might be able to stop people on the outside at least.
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Duke game last night was extremely interesting for what Coach K did. This is the ultimate man defense coach who came out and played zone most of the game.
Reason was simple. 4 freshmen were starting. If guys can't play man D, then try something else.
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I saw what Coach K and smiled a little, thinking he got it from Wojo. However, it is tough to zone with two little guys up top. Syracuse is successful year in and out with long athletes who use their length to disrupt passing lanes and collapse the post. It has been decades since Syracuse had guards the size of Markus and Andrew.
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Most of that 16/23 occurred after Marquette had built a 36 point lead. I'm not saying the interior defense is good by any stretch, but I'm not sure that particular stat is that meaningful.
This. Exactly this TAMU. Everyone is upset but they forget that we had the freshman playing 5 straight minutes to end the game.
People would prefer we win by 50 and have a great D% against a crummy team than get any freshman play time.
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Duke game last night was extremely interesting for what Coach K did. This is the ultimate man defense coach who came out and played zone most of the game.
Reason was simple. 4 freshmen were starting. If guys can't play man D, then try something else.
We went on our skid last season when Wojo fell in love with the zone after the Nova game. We went on our run at the end of the season when Wojo finally killed the zone.
Our guards are too small for a zone and it bogs our offense down. For better or worse, we are a run and gun offense first team. Personally, I think our defense is improved from last season.
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I get that, but we never had the ball in that position. When you get it to 6 and it's back to 9 before you have a chance to cut the lead further, it's not like it's really a two-possession game because by the end of the possession (their turn with the ball) it's already extended back to three.
I will acknowledge your viewpoint and avoid any more of a semantics debate.
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Most of that 16/23 occurred after Marquette had built a 36 point lead. I'm not saying the interior defense is good by any stretch, but I'm not sure that particular stat is that meaningful.
The guarding the three better is why I'm encouraged about the defense. Last season we couldn't stop people inside or outside. This season it seems like we might be able to stop people on the outside at least.
Andrei noted the 9/16 before MSM went 7/7 at the end, but the early part of the second half included a 5/5 2PFG stretch from MSM when our starters were still in.
Clearly it's early and there's still a lot of season to play. I agree that how we do in Maui will be a better indicator than these first two games. That said, there were warning bells in the MSM game that continued in the Purdue game, and it wasn't just because of the late stretch with 3 freshmen playing.
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Andrei noted the 9/16 before MSM went 7/7 at the end, but the early part of the second half included a 5/5 2PFG stretch from MSM when our starters were still in.
Clearly it's early and there's still a lot of season to play. I agree that how we do in Maui will be a better indicator than these first two games. That said, there were warning bells in the MSM game that continued in the Purdue game, and it wasn't just because of the late stretch with 3 freshmen playing.
There have been warning bells for 4 years that haven't gotten fixed.
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We will not know, if this team has a chance to be a good team until Froling gets a couple of games under his belt. He will make a huge difference, if he can adequately back up Heldt at center and Sam at power forward. Sam should not have to play center or 30+ minutes a game.
As far as point guard for this year. Rowsey did a good job bringing the ball up. Where he got in trouble was taking the ball in to deep.
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Duke game last night was extremely interesting for what Coach K did. This is the ultimate man defense coach who came out and played zone most of the game.
Reason was simple. 4 freshmen were starting. If guys can't play man D, then try something else.
Bingo!!! If Coach K can do it, why the hell can't Wojo?? I remember a year when Buzz was here, they pulled out a zone in a game because nothing else was working, lo and behold, they got back into the game, and eventually won it. I BELIEVE in the post game show, Buzz had mentioned that they had practiced zone very little, if at all, but he felt he needed to change it up, and see if it worked. Zone is easy to play, you could explain it during a time out. If you are too stubborn to do that, then what about trapping out high, trying to get them to panic, throw the ball away, or at the very least, keep them from getting it inside so easily.
Wojo isn't creative, at all. If it doesn't work, oh well, you at least tried something other than what you typically do, man to man, or double team. When something isn't working, why keep doing it?? It's like he thinks the rules state they can either play man to man defense, or double team and that's it.
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We will not know, if this team has a chance to be a good team until Froling gets a couple of games under his belt. He will make a huge difference, if he can adequately back up Heldt at center and Sam at power forward. Sam should not have to play center or 30+ minutes a game.
As far as point guard for this year. Rowsey did a good job bringing the ball up. Where he got in trouble was taking the ball in to deep.
The problem is, it could be too late already by then. They could bury themselves too deep in the non conference by the time Froling comes for it to even matter...unless maybe the NIT is important.
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I know someone else has already said it in this thread somewhere, but the hope is that Froling can bring more of a outside game to the center position. A simple pick and pop with either Rowsey or Howard could be real nice. If he’s a threat from the corner that brings the big out of the paint on defense and opens the drives that weren’t there last night for our guards. Make the opposing center have to cover more ground on D and they’ll pick up more fouls being out of position. If Heldt or John is within 8 ft of the basket, the opposing center can stay within 8ft.
5 more fouls on the defensive end will help too.
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The problem is, it could be too late already by then. They could bury themselves too deep in the non conference by the time Froling comes for it to even matter...unless maybe the NIT is important.
I do think we could go 5-5 and still be okay, if we won 70% of the games with Froling. The NCAA will realize that we were a different team with Froling. 5-5 + 14-6 = 19-11. We would need to win a conference tournament game.
Of course Froling is likely to not make that much difference. However, I do believe his size would of helped against Purdue.
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Bingo!!! If Coach K can do it, why the hell can't Wojo?? I remember a year when Buzz was here, they pulled out a zone in a game because nothing else was working, lo and behold, they got back into the game, and eventually won it. I BELIEVE in the post game show, Buzz had mentioned that they had practiced zone very little, if at all, but he felt he needed to change it up, and see if it worked. Zone is easy to play, you could explain it during a time out. If you are too stubborn to do that, then what about trapping out high, trying to get them to panic, throw the ball away, or at the very least, keep them from getting it inside so easily.
Wojo isn't creative, at all. If it doesn't work, oh well, you at least tried something other than what you typically do, man to man, or double team. When something isn't working, why keep doing it?? It's like he thinks the rules state they can either play man to man defense, or double team and that's it.
We played zone almost the entire year in Wojo's first year. He isn't unwilling to adjust. We didn't play zone last night because Purdue is a terrible team to zone against and going to zone would have been a terrible coaching decision.
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We played zone almost the entire year in Wojo's first year. He isn't unwilling to adjust. We didn't play zone last night because Purdue is a terrible team to zone against and going to zone would have been a terrible coaching decision.
Yeah people who want him to “do something” for the sake of simply doing something really don’t know a lot about basketball.
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We went on our skid last season when Wojo fell in love with the zone after the Nova game. We went on our run at the end of the season when Wojo finally killed the zone.
Our guards are too small for a zone and it bogs our offense down. For better or worse, we are a run and gun offense first team. Personally, I think our defense is improved from last season.
I generally agree and even though we had issues with the Purdue bigs, I too thought our defense was better.
But when we struggled so badly on Defense in the 2nd half it was worth a try.
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We played zone almost the entire year in Wojo's first year. He isn't unwilling to adjust. We didn't play zone last night because Purdue is a terrible team to zone against and going to zone would have been a terrible coaching decision.
Because you can guarantee me, they would have made every single 3 point shot against the zone?? That's interesting, because I'm pretty sure teams don't make every shot they take from 3, no matter how open they are...kinda like Nova last year. They scored on almost every possession in the 2nd half the way it is, what was gonna happen going zone?? They score on every one?? ::)
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Again, Wojo switched to zone after we beat Nova with it. The result was losing 4 of 5. We started winning again when he killed the zone and bright back man. We do not have a good roster for zone. Guards are too small and it bogs down our offense. A prolific three point shooting team like Purdue would have eviscerated us.
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Yeah people who want him to “do something” for the sake of simply doing something really don’t know a lot about basketball.
I've forgotten more about basketball, then you will every know. I can GUARANTEE you that my friend. Prove 100% to me that zone would absolutely NOT have worked, and I will stop talking about it, how's that for a deal?? I will hang up and wait for your answer. Now, let's play devil's advocate...let's say Zone would NOT have worked..there's other things you can do...you can trap out high, and maybe force some panic, or make feeding the post tougher, you can use some full court pressure to disrupt the flow of their offense and make them play faster then they'd like with those two bigs. Obviously, if you don't realize that, then you don't know a lot about basketball, right??
Maybe this will help...let's say in the manufacturing industry, you are making bad product doing it the way you have always done it. So, you realize this isn't optimal, and you try something different, and that still doesn't work. So at that point, do you just say "ah f it, we tried two different things, and neither worked, this just must be the way it is", and keep producing bad parts, or would the more optimal solution be to keep trying things until you find one that works better, or..if it doesn't, what exactly did you lose??
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This whole zone thing by guru, guru of what?! is just stupid!!! We go man he wants zone and on and on and on. Made zero sense to zone.
Bottom line is Purdue had the 3 best players on the court yesterday and they are all vastly bigger stronger and more experienced than Marquette. Realy hung with them for most of the game and made it a battle.
They shoot the three as well or better than us and rebound extremely well but we should zone them.
Guru ur really not coming off well u sound ignorant to the game
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Again, Wojo switched to zone after we beat Nova with it. The result was losing 4 of 5. We started winning again when he killed the zone and bright back man. We do not have a good roster for zone. Guards are too small and it bogs down our offense. A prolific three point shooting team like Purdue would have eviscerated us.
Wait...what?? MU beat the #1 team in the country last year playing a zone?? Say it isn't so..Yet, people seem to forget that and INSIST it wouldn't work against Purdue..Yet, Nova was clanking three's in that game. Huh. go figure.
A prolific 3 point shooting team like Nova would have eviscerated them with it...oh...wait. :o
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This whole zone thing by guru, guru of what?! is just stupid!!! We go man he wants zone and on and on and on. Made zero sense to zone.
Bottom line is Purdue had the 3 best players on the court yesterday and they are all vastly bigger stronger and more experienced than Marquette. Realy hung with them for most of the game and made it a battle.
They shoot the three as well or better than us and rebound extremely well but we should zone them.
Guru ur really not coming off well u sound ignorant to the game
Mr Sand knit, how did MU beat Nova last year?? Do you remember?? How did Nova shoot from 3 in that game?? I'm just curious..
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I've forgotten more about basketball, then you will every know.
LOL...ok dude.
Prove 100% to me that zone would absolutely NOT have worked, and I will stop talking about it, how's that for a deal??
So now you are asking me to prove a negative after it occurred? Your knowledge of logic is even worse than your knowledge of basketball.
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Nova had a bad 5 minute stretch from 3. Ur insistance that MU change its defensive philosophy in quite honestly a five minute lucky stretch is pretty dumb, par for you but dumb for anyone else
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Yes. Nova had a historically bad shooting night. I prefer to not use strategies that require opponents to have historically bad shooting nights. And purdue is a better three point shooting team than Nova.
Playing Haas 1 on 1 and locking down everyone else was working. It broke down when foul trouble forced Wojo to start doubling Haas. Letting a center get a bunch of two pointers is fine when you have the shooters that we do. Teams did the same thing to us last season, let Fischer get his but lockdown the shooters.
I've forgotten more about basketball, then you will every know. I can GUARANTEE you that my friend.
And Wojo has forgotten more about basketball than you will ever know but that doesn't stop you so why should it stop sultan?
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Look at Guru starting the "I know more about basketball than you" big dick contest.
(https://i2.wp.com/media.giphy.com/media/QMGZpKcr22EUw/giphy.gif?resize=500%2C213&ssl=1)
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LOL...ok dude.
So now you are asking me to prove a negative after it occurred? Your knowledge of logic is even worse than your knowledge of basketball.
I'm just sayin'...Your attitude is always of the "smartest man in the room". You flat out said a zone wouldn't have worked..I'm just curious how you know that for sure...or is that merely your opinion??
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I'm just sayin'...Your attitude is always of the "smartest man in the room". You flat out said a zone wouldn't have worked..I'm just curious how you know that for sure...or is that merely your opinion??
Well of course it's an opinion. How the hell can anyone say for sure it would have worked?
I could say "play Ike Eke at point guard" and no one could possibly prove it would (or wouldn't) have worked.
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We will not know, if this team has a chance to be a good team until Froling gets a couple of games under his belt. He will make a huge difference, if he can adequately back up Heldt at center and Sam at power forward. Sam should not have to play center or 30+ minutes a game.
As far as point guard for this year. Rowsey did a good job bringing the ball up. Where he got in trouble was taking the ball in to deep.
I'll be surprised if Froling isn't garnering 20 plus minutes a game once he becomes eligible with Matt and Theo in reserve at the 5.
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Well of course it's an opinion. How the hell can anyone say for sure it would have worked?
I could say "play Ike Eke at point guard" and no one could possibly prove it would (or wouldn't) have worked.
Exactly! Yet you state it as fact to be condescending...that's how you are. You have this "I'm smarter then you" complex around here. if it's your opinion, then state it as such..."I don't think zone would have worked", rather then with certainty "zone would not have worked". I don't know for sure that it would have worked...but you know what?? I know what Wojo was doing(in both instances) was NOT working. In that instance, I either...concede it's not going to work and basically wave the white flag, or..I try everything that I possibly can to get my kids a chance at a win, and there was exactly ZERO harm in doing so. As i said, it didn't have to be a zone necessarily, it could have been pressure, trapping, whatever...something other then the 2 things he did try.
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I'll be surprised if Froling isn't garnering 20 plus minutes a game once he becomes eligible with Matt and Theo in reserve at the 5.
Ted is exactly right...Maybe Harry doesn't save the season so to speak, but he will give them a far better chance at winning games then Matt and Theo currently do.
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Ted is exactly right...Maybe Harry doesn't save the season so to speak, but he will give them a far better chance at winning games then Matt and Theo currently do.
How can you say that with certainty? Or is that just opinion? Seems quite condescending to make a statement like that
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Y’all are ‘pectin’ two much outta Frolin’. He ain’t no second cummin’, hey?
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Exactly! Yet you state it as fact to be condescending...that's how you are. You have this "I'm smarter then you" complex around here.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
if it's your opinion, then state it as such..."I don't think zone would have worked", rather then with certainty "zone would not have worked".
LOL. Try to be less of a hypocrite.
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Y’all are ‘pectin’ two much outta Frolin’. He ain’t no second cummin’, hey?
So you don't think he could be playing 20 minutes or more a night? By far the more offensively skilled of the players at the 5 right now.
I'm not sure what to totally expect defensively and in rebounding since his body change since I watched him in games for SMU a year ago. Losing 40 pounds may have a great effect on his quickness and ability to get rebounds out of his area.
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Playin’ 20 min.? Who cares? Nun of us no if he’s an upgrade. Color me skeptical doe, hey?
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Completely disagree with the freshmen having a high celing. Elliot and Cain have a ton of potential. Super high ceiling. Unfortunately, they also have lower floors.
Theo could be an absolute monster as an upper classman.
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Its kool how we’re always gonna bee awsome in a seeson or too. In da meantyme, suckin’ ass now, ai na?
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Its kool how we’re always gonna bee awsome in a seeson or too. In da meantyme, suckin’ ass now, ai na?
Don’t tell Dodds that. Every year is a rebuild to him. The wait till next year talk gets old.
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Don’t tell Dodds that. Every year is a rebuild to him. The wait till next year talk gets old.
I've been waiting till next year for 4 years. I just hope wojo's class this year doesn't blow up like the Carter Cheatham ellenson class.
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I've been waiting till next year for 4 years. I just hope wojo's class this year doesn't blow up like the Carter Cheatham ellenson class.
+1, getting REALLY old, yet strangely, after the massive success this program had under Buzz, a lot of MU fans are okay with the repeated "wait till next year" line. This is where you cue the "Look what Buzz left Wojo, rebuilds take time " crowd.
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+1, getting REALLY old, yet strangely, after the massive success this program had under Buzz, a lot of MU fans are okay with the repeated "wait till next year" line. This is where you cue the "Look what Buzz left Wojo, rebuilds take time " crowd.
I'm all for waiting, but the progress has been bad. His 2015 class was basically a full bust. HE went pro instantly (while making us lose another center) Carter transferred, and Cheatham is shaping up to be a role player into his junior year. I'm hopeful for these next two classes although. Then theres his coaching decisions, which have just been awful and shown little improvement over the years.
Edit: Completely forgot about Sacar "Where is he" Anim.
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I know someone else has already said it in this thread somewhere, but the hope is that Froling can bring more of a outside game to the center position. A simple pick and pop with either Rowsey or Howard could be real nice. If he’s a threat from the corner that brings the big out of the paint on defense and opens the drives that weren’t there last night for our guards. Make the opposing center have to cover more ground on D and they’ll pick up more fouls being out of position. If Heldt or John is within 8 ft of the basket, the opposing center can stay within 8ft.
5 more fouls on the defensive end will help too.
Froling will definitely give Wojo greater roster flexibility, offering a different skillset and 5 more fouls to give. Based on early scouting reports, I expect Harry to have the most developed offensive game. It shouldn't even be close; he's considered a potential NBA prospect, quite a step above Matt and Theo at this point.
I'm not so sure about his outside game. Got to the Bradley Center early on Tuesday when he was shooting around with the team. Seemed he only took 3-pointers, and wasn't making many of them. At one point, I counted 1 for 7. Granted, small sample size in a warm-up, not a game. But I don't think we need Froling to shoot from outside. We need him to get the defense's attention inside to open things up for drives, mid-range jumpers and threes. Unless he's hitting at least 38%, I don't want him on the perimeter.
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I'm not so sure about his outside game. Got to the Bradley Center early on Tuesday when he was shooting around with the team. Seemed he only took 3-pointers, and wasn't making many of them. At one point, I counted 1 for 7. Granted, small sample size in a warm-up, not a game. But I don't think we need Froling to shoot from outside. We need him to get the defense's attention inside to open things up for drives, mid-range jumpers and threes. Unless he's hitting at least 38%, I don't want him on the perimeter.
That's like permanently benching Markus Howard based on how he played in the home game against Villanova last year.
Are you seriously making judgements based on watching him attempt a handful of threes? I bet if he knew you were watching, he would have tried harder.
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I saw what Coach K and smiled a little, thinking he got it from Wojo. However, it is tough to zone with two little guys up top. Syracuse is successful year in and out with long athletes who use their length to disrupt passing lanes and collapse the post. It has been decades since Syracuse had guards the size of Markus and Andrew.
Coach K was almost run out of Durham for insisting on only playing man to man in his first years. He only started using a zone after having Boeheim as an assistant in USA Bball.
I've forgotten more about basketball, then you will every know.
I love the old "I forgot more than you will ever know" statements. All that shows is you admit you're forgetful not that you can still recall "more than he will ever know". ;)
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+1, getting REALLY old, yet strangely, after the massive success this program had under Buzz, a lot of MU fans are okay with the repeated "wait till next year" line. This is where you cue the "Look what Buzz left Wojo, rebuilds take time " crowd.
One would think 4 years into the "rebuild" we would have a true point guard.
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I've been waiting till next year for 4 years. I just hope wojo's class this year doesn't blow up like the Carter Cheatham ellenson class.
Umm...I just don't see this at all. We knew 2015 and 2016 were going to be bad. We knew that last year and this year were going to be better but not likely much more than NCAA bids. I can understand the "wait til next year" approach with 2014, because we were expecting a senior-laden team with Vander Blue leading the way. Obviously that fell apart. I understand it with 2019, because we have an experienced team that is adding a 5-star recruit and a proven forward in Ed Morrow. But I don't get anyone saying "wait til next year" for any year in the past five years other than those two. It just doesn't make sense.
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Umm...I just don't see this at all. We knew 2015 and 2016 were going to be bad. We knew that last year and this year were going to be better but not likely much more than NCAA bids. I can understand the "wait til next year" approach with 2014, because we were expecting a senior-laden team with Vander Blue leading the way. Obviously that fell apart. I understand it with 2019, because we have an experienced team that is adding a 5-star recruit and a proven forward in Ed Morrow. But I don't get anyone saying "wait til next year" for any year in the past five years other than those two. It just doesn't make sense.
I didn’t know 16 was going to be miss all postseason bad and I don’t think many others on here did either. Which I believe is part of the problem. If the 13-14 team and/or the 15-16 team hasn’t made any postseason at all I believe there’d be a bit more patience but instead it’s just a dead era where people think of those seasons as being as bad as 14-15
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I didn’t know 16 was going to be miss all postseason bad and I don’t think many others on here did either. Which I believe is part of the problem. If the 13-14 team and/or the 15-16 team hasn’t made any postseason at all I believe there’d be a bit more patience but instead it’s just a dead era where people think of those seasons as being as bad as 14-15
I can see how 2016 could've been seen with some potential, though the schedule sure indicated the staff and administration wasn't trying to build a resume for March. I think in general, 2016 lived up to expectations. We had the sour taste of 2014 and Buzz's departure and the first miserable season under Wojo. If "wait til next year" was the mantra, I would think 20 wins and being respectable again met those expectations. Same with last year.
I haven't seen anything thus far to indicate Wojo isn't proceeding and succeeding at a fine rate. I'd like to see more out of the defense, sure, but as far as strictly results goes, the trajectory has been consistently up and seems to be pointing to better things in the coming years. I get the idea of "wait til next year" this year because so many seem to think next year's team has second and possibly third weekend potential. But while you can get fortunate results, anyone that thought in 2014, 2015, or 2016 that we were a "wait til next year" away from a Final Four is either ridiculously overoptimistic or just delusional.
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I can see how 2016 could've been seen with some potential, though the schedule sure indicated the staff and administration wasn't trying to build a resume for March. I think in general, 2016 lived up to expectations. We had the sour taste of 2014 and Buzz's departure and the first miserable season under Wojo. If "wait til next year" was the mantra, I would think 20 wins and being respectable again met those expectations. Same with last year.
I haven't seen anything thus far to indicate Wojo isn't proceeding and succeeding at a fine rate. I'd like to see more out of the defense, sure, but as far as strictly results goes, the trajectory has been consistently up and seems to be pointing to better things in the coming years. I get the idea of "wait til next year" this year because so many seem to think next year's team has second and possibly third weekend potential. But while you can get fortunate results, anyone that thought in 2014, 2015, or 2016 that we were a "wait til next year" away from a Final Four is either ridiculously overoptimistic or just delusional.
I agree it’s just unfortunate that 20 wins and 14 are viewed as the same because there wasn’t even an NIT bid.
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FWIW, I have heard Wojo himself say several times, in interviews, that even he wishes the progress was faster(almost inferring he had thought it would be by now). Well Wojo, who's responsible for that??
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So people would feel better about the rebuild had we made the 2016 NIT?
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So people would feel better about the rebuild had we made the 2016 NIT?
I think people would be more inclined to buy into step by step progress. I’m not saying people would be 100% in but I feel that some form of postseason result from that season of Henry would get people to go from saying “that was a bust of a year” to “that was a weak schedule and a young team but you can see some ground work”
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So people would feel better about the rebuild had we made the 2016 NIT?
I never wanted a rebuild to begin with..especially one that has taken this long. I wanted a reload.
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I never wanted a rebuild to begin with..especially one that has taken this long. I wanted a reload.
And how do you propose that should’ve been done? Please lay out a bullet point strategy where things could’ve gone better. Because everything that blew up in our faces since Vander left seems to have been beyond our control outside of defense.
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I never wanted a rebuild to begin with..especially one that has taken this long. I wanted a reload.
Man. You sure do whine a lot. You realize this isn't the same Marquette as the 70s? And it's not modern day Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, etc?
Unless we get a lifetime coach, this ebb and flow is what Marquette is. You either can't understand where we are in the college basketball hierarchy or you willingly choose to ignore it.
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There was quite a bit of excitement around that 15-16 team, I think people are short changing expectations for that team looking back. You had JJ and Duane, two former top 75 recruits, who were entering their 3rd season in the program. Duane was coming off a RS FR year when he averaged 12 points a game. Luke was going to be available for a full season after averaging 11 a game during his half season. That is 3 talented and experienced upperclassmen coming back.
On top of that, we were adding a top 10 recruiting class including a bonafide 5 star All American in Henry, and two 4 stars in Carter and HC. I know I had high expectations, as did others. I remember talking to countless people around the state of WI who would comment on Wojo and the season MU could have with Henry, and he's got the program rolling, etc. It probably all peaked when MU went into the Kohl Center and whipped UW.
I think most fans were expecting much more from that season, at least a NCAA tournament bid. I would say that was a disappointing season, IMO. I'm sure Wojo would tell you the same thing. At least I hope he would.
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jsemu84
I do not think MU is the MU of the 70's or Duke, Kansas or Kentucky of today. I think MU is a top 70 program that has been limping slightly forward for three years. I just looked up USC record prior to Andy Enfield coming on board and they were horrible for a decade and in year four they currently are ranked #10 in the country. IMO that is turning around a program.
I definitely know that for every USC turnaround there are 10 x the number of schools that don't have that turnaround. My point is simple, a faster rebuild could have happened and probably should have happened. The continued talk about how hard a rebuild is and how long it should take is getting old. Honestly, Wojo has not gotten done to this point. That could change but he does not get a passing grade from me.
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I also think fan expectations are higher (rightfully so) due to the insane amount of money Marquette spends to be a below-average Big East team.
Also, we are going to be "young" again next season -- Wojo's fifth season. Clearly, he needs 5-7 experienced, fantastic basketball players to be competitive. He's never "coached up" any team to exceed expectations.
What players have gotten better under his tutelage? Duane Wilson? Haney? His best players have arrived on campus good, and stayed good.
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jsemu84
I do not think MU is the MU of the 70's or Duke, Kansas or Kentucky of today. I think MU is a top 70 program that has been limping slightly forward for three years. I just looked up USC record prior to Andy Enfield coming on board and they were horrible for a decade and in year four they currently are ranked #10 in the country. IMO that is turning around a program.
I definitely know that for every USC turnaround there are 10 x the number of schools that don't have that turnaround. My point is simple, a faster rebuild could have happened and probably should have happened. The continued talk about how hard a rebuild is and how long it should take is getting old. Honestly, Wojo has not gotten done to this point. That could change but he does not get a passing grade from me.
And one of their assistants was just arrested by the FBI. Not sure if that's the example I would go with.
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TAMU
I did not know a Southern Cal assistant was arrested by the FBI.
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I also think fan expectations are higher (rightfully so) due to the insane amount of money Marquette spends to be a below-average Big East team.
Also, we are going to be "young" again next season -- Wojo's fifth season. Clearly, he needs 5-7 experienced, fantastic basketball players to be competitive. He's never "coached up" any team to exceed expectations.
What players have gotten better under his tutelage? Duane Wilson? Haney? His best players have arrived on campus good, and stayed good.
This is a great point.
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Is anyone really surprised by Tuesday's result? If the pundits' predictions are accurate, and they generally tend to be, we're predicted to finish 7th in the BE with .500 conf record at best and maybe a couple of games over 500 overall. We were very lucky to dance last year, and are less experienced this year so what is the surprise here?
I'm as frustrated as anyone but we are who we are. All that said, I agree with TAMU Eagle and believe we're on the right track with WOJO at the helm. At least for now. If we're not a top 25 team and at least an 8 seed in the dance in 2018 /2019, I'll change my tune but don't feel a leadership change is warranted just yet.
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Also, we are going to be "young" again next season -- Wojo's fifth season.
How are we doing to be young next season?
4th year players
Haanif
Morrow
Heldt
Sacar
3rd year players
Markus
Sam
Harry
2nd year players
Elliott
Cain
John
Eke
1st year players
Joey
Bailey (who will be 20 or 21)
Assuming no major defections, we will have more upperclassmen than underclassmen and one of our underclassmen will be the age of our upperclassmen.
Clearly, he needs 5-7 experienced, fantastic basketball players to be competitive. He's never "coached up" any team to exceed expectations.
His first season he met expectations. His second season he fell short of expectations. His third season he exceeded expectations (very few if any pundits had us making the tournament). His fourth season is only two games and so far has won a game everyone expected him to and lost a game everyone expected him to.
What players have gotten better under his tutelage? Duane Wilson? Haney? His best players have arrived on campus good, and stayed good.
Juan, Car3no, Teve, Luke, JJJ, Heldt, and Rowsey all significantly improved under Wojo. Henry improved greatly from the beginning of his season to the end. Katin and Wally were about the same players they were at their first schools. Duane and Sandy seemed to fade under Wojo though I think Duane was due to lingering injuries. Haanif did not improve after his first season. Jury is still out on Markus, Sam, and Sacar.
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jsemu84
I do not think MU is the MU of the 70's or Duke, Kansas or Kentucky of today. I think MU is a top 70 program that has been limping slightly forward for three years. I just looked up USC record prior to Andy Enfield coming on board and they were horrible for a decade and in year four they currently are ranked #10 in the country. IMO that is turning around a program.
I definitely know that for every USC turnaround there are 10 x the number of schools that don't have that turnaround. My point is simple, a faster rebuild could have happened and probably should have happened. The continued talk about how hard a rebuild is and how long it should take is getting old. Honestly, Wojo has not gotten done to this point. That could change but he does not get a passing grade from me.
Beyond the USC bball scandal, currently under investigation... do you want to be the type of program that straddles the line constantly with "squirmy" actions? I don't. And if you do, that's okay too. Though I think you'd be better off realizing that our admin doesn't want to be that program either.
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TAMU
Carlino improved under Wojo? That is a stretch. Only thing that happened is after six weeks everyone on here realized without him they would not have won 7-8 games. Wojo did not make Matt a better player.
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TAMU
Carlino improved under Wojo? That is a stretch. Only thing that happened is after six weeks everyone on here realized without him they would not have won 7-8 games. Wojo did not make Matt a better player.
In his one season here, Carlino posted his highest career offensive rating, highest eFG%, highest FT%, and highest 3P%. He also posted career highs in points, minutes, and did so against the highest level of competition he played in his 4 years as a college player.
Whether he improved through the season is up for debate. I suppose you could also argue whether he improved as the season progressed. But he unquestionably had his best year in his one year under Wojo and it's not really close.
Now, what I meant to post before Carlino was brought up. It seems the consensus is that next year we should be a top-20 program and contending for a second weekend appearance. Say we are ranked in the top-15 most of the season, finish top-3 in the Big East, and make the Sweet 16. Would that have us on a rebuild path that matches your expectations?
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In his one season here, Carlino posted his highest career offensive rating, highest eFG%, highest FT%, and highest 3P%. He also posted career highs in points, minutes, and did so against the highest level of competition he played in his 4 years as a college player.
Whether he improved through the season is up for debate. I suppose you could also argue whether he improved as the season progressed. But he unquestionably had his best year in his one year under Wojo and it's not really close.
Now, what I meant to post before Carlino was brought up. It seems the consensus is that next year we should be a top-20 program and contending for a second weekend appearance. Say we are ranked in the top-15 most of the season, finish top-3 in the Big East, and make the Sweet 16. Would that have us on a rebuild path that matches your expectations?
I do not think yet that MU is a Top 15 team, not sure how anybody can think that? Really have no point guard yet, center might be an issue after watching Purdue game, the 3 small forwards are questionable and if you put Sam at the 3 is he quick enough to guard the 3? Not sure where Joey fits and really how good is he? It is
one thing to play at SP, it is another game playing active athletes every game in college. Where do they all play? As I do see Morrow starting, he is a load physically?
If he plays center, then Joey and Sam at the forwards, Howard at one guard and a very big question mark at the other. Bailey is the X factor in my mind. Now if Elliott
or Cain really improve, then maybe. Lots of ifs for a top 15 team.
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TAMU
Carlino improved under Wojo? That is a stretch. Only thing that happened is after six weeks everyone on here realized without him they would not have won 7-8 games. Wojo did not make Matt a better player.
See what Brew posted. Carlino posted his best season in both raw numbers and advanced stats despite being surrounded by a mediocre supporting cast. I call that improvement. What would you call it?
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TAMU
I call Matt's Sr. year what a former top 30 recruit and fifth/sixth year player looks like. His numbers were better, but he was pretty consistent across the board his whole career. While I am a big Matt fan, and biased, he pretty much did whatever he wanted at MU. The fact he made more baskets in second half of the year changed a lot of opinions of him with Scoopers.
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I do not think yet that MU is a Top 15 team, not sure how anybody can think that? Really have no point guard yet, center might be an issue after watching Purdue game, the 3 small forwards are questionable and if you put Sam at the 3 is he quick enough to guard the 3? Not sure where Joey fits and really how good is he? It is
one thing to play at SP, it is another game playing active athletes every game in college. Where do they all play? As I do see Morrow starting, he is a load physically?
If he plays center, then Joey and Sam at the forwards, Howard at one guard and a very big question mark at the other. Bailey is the X factor in my mind. Now if Elliott
or Cain really improve, then maybe. Lots of ifs for a top 15 team.
You totally misunderstand my post. I don't care what anyone sees in next year's team. I am saying if the following happens:
- Top-15 ranking all year long
- Top-3 Big East finish
- Sweet 16
If all of those happen, is the rebuild on track? Is that acceptable for year 5?
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TAMU
I call Matt's Sr. year what a former top 30 recruit and fifth/sixth year player looks like. His numbers were better, but he was pretty consistent across the board his whole career. While I am a big Matt fan, and biased, he pretty much did whatever he wanted at MU. The fact he made more baskets in second half of the year changed a lot of opinions of him with Scoopers.
You seem to be implying that his numbers only got better because he was a volume scorer. If that was the case, he wouldn't have improved stats like eFG%, 3P%, .ppp, etc. Carlino increased his raw numbers while simultaneously increasing his efficiency. He did that despite having arguably the worst supporting cast he had ever had in college and playing against the toughest competition he ever saw. That is significant improvement.
I don't know many things, but I do know that Carlino was a significantly better player at Marquette than he was at BYU. I don't think Wojo deserves all the credit for that. But I can't see any way anyone could argue that Carlino improving under Wojo is a "stretch."
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I don't know many things, but I do know that Carlino was a significantly better player at Marquette than he was at BYU. I don't think Wojo deserves all the credit for that. But I can't see any way anyone could argue that Carlino improving under Wojo is a "stretch."
Matt came in with the chucker reputation, but he had 0.80+ ppg in 25/28 games and 1.00+ ppg in 17/28 games. He was remarkably consistent, something that went against the reputation he came in with. And as you mention, his efficiency numbers were better, which is in diametric opposition to the notion that he "did whatever he wanted" because in that describes a high-volume, low-efficiency player, which Matt was not while he was here. The career high in scoring came with his second lowest career percent of shots taken.
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Brew
I meant he did whatever he wanted as a compliment. He did whatever he could to try and save a season. Early on, everyone hear called him a chucker. He played same style of ball from day one, just made more shots in latter half of season. I said back then, Matt has very high ball IQ and did not need a ton of coaching.
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You totally misunderstand my post. I don't care what anyone sees in next year's team. I am saying if the following happens:
- Top-15 ranking all year long
- Top-3 Big East finish
- Sweet 16
If all of those happen, is the rebuild on track? Is that acceptable for year 5?
As long as there isn't a huge drop off in year 6. I'd really hate to be 'good' every couple of years.
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As long as there isn't a huge drop off in year 6. I'd really hate to be 'good' every couple of years.
They should be fine the following 2 years, again, Top 15, I do not think so. Hope I am wrong. Lose only Heldt, average center and Cheatham, below average 3,
they should be able to recruit better players than those 2, new arena will be done, that alone should sell a recruit. I do not know if you have seen the front yet, but
the stadium is huge, towers the Bradley Center, it will be the nicest arena in the country.
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Next year's roster looks like a top 25 roster to me. I'll admit I am concerned about the PG position, but were only two games into the season and both Howard and Elliott are nursing injuries. I'm not ready to declare that neither can be a solid PG next season.
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Brew
I meant he did whatever he wanted as a compliment. He did whatever he could to try and save a season. Early on, everyone hear called him a chucker. He played same style of ball from day one, just made more shots in latter half of season. I said back then, Matt has very high ball IQ and did not need a ton of coaching.
"Wojo hasn't really developed anyone. And those players who have improved? They're just smart and figured it out on their own."
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"Wojo hasn't really developed anyone. And those players who have improved? They're just smart and figured it out on their own."
Seems accurate. No questionable logic here
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I think the biggest issue is that Wojo has not built a well balanced team. The lack of a quality front line outside of Sam has been a big problem. However I think he has figured it out with John, Morrow and maybe even Cain. Probably took him too long however.
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Sultan
Matt Carlino was born a basketball player and raised in a 24/7 basketball environment. Wojo did not coach him up one bit. I was specifically talking about one player. This is one argument I can say I know what the hell I am talking about.
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Sultan
Matt Carlino was born a basketball player and raised in a 24/7 basketball environment. Wojo did not coach him up one bit. I was specifically talking about one player. This is one argument I can say I know what the hell I am talking about.
Goose,
Could you tell me the recruiting service that had him top 30? I’m unable to find it and am just curious.
Thank you,
BB
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Bagpiping
He was in Time magazine as an eighth grader. Had offers to major, major D1 as an eiight grader. Through Jr year he and Austin Rivers were neck in neck as class rankings. Again, I know what I am talking about it.
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Sultan
Matt Carlino was born a basketball player and raised in a 24/7 basketball environment. Wojo did not coach him up one bit. I was specifically talking about one player. This is one argument I can say I know what the hell I am talking about.
So you think his statistical improvement was simply a coincidence then? Even though he stated one of the reasons he wanted to come here was to play for Wojo? And that he was complementary of Wojo throughout the year and after he left?
I doubt that.
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You totally misunderstand my post. I don't care what anyone sees in next year's team. I am saying if the following happens:
- Top-15 ranking all year long
- Top-3 Big East finish
- Sweet 16
If all of those happen, is the rebuild on track? Is that acceptable for year 5?
Acceptable, IF that's not the ceiling, and the program continues an upwards trajectory from there...no steps backwards. Though I would say"it's about time, what took you so long"??
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Sultan
Trust me, this one topic I am far more familiar with than you are. I find it comical that some people chose to argue on every point.
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Sultan
Matt Carlino was born a basketball player and raised in a 24/7 basketball environment. Wojo did not coach him up one bit. I was specifically talking about one player. This is one argument I can say I know what the hell I am talking about.
You may know the family, you may be related, but coaching absolutely played a role. Whether it was what Wojo did directly with Carlino or the system he set him up in, Wojo put him in a position where he had greater success than any other year of his career. He did that despite having the worst supporting cast he had ever had. He scored more than he ever had despite playing at the slowest pace. And he did all of that at a more efficient rate than he had ever done before.
You can dismiss the staff all you like, but this staff put Carlino in the position to have the season he had. That was absolutely because of the coaching. And as it happened with his second lowest usage rate, it also wasn't because he was featured in this offense, because he was featured even more in the Dave Rose offense at BYU.
I don't know their relationship. I don't know what the specifics were. I don't need to know those things to see the system Carlino played in here allowed him to excel moreso than ever before while playing better competition than he faced before. The staff played a role in his best season ever. Discounting that out of hand is nonsensical.
Sorry, but there is no way that a player is put alongside the worst supporting cast of his career against the highest level of competition while playing at the slowest pace and he puts up career numbers in terms of raw scoring and efficiency without the coaching staff playing a role, directly or indirectly.
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Bagpiping
He was in Time magazine as an eighth grader. Had offers to major, major D1 as an eiight grader. Through Jr year he and Austin Rivers were neck in neck as class rankings. Again, I know what I am talking about it.
Lol. Cause 8th grade rankings hold weight? Jeez dude.
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Bagpiping
He was in Time magazine as an eighth grader. Had offers to major, major D1 as an eiight grader. Through Jr year he and Austin Rivers were neck in neck as class rankings. Again, I know what I am talking about it.
I’m not doubting what you are saying or that you know what you are talking about. I was only confused because it didn’t show him in the top 100 in the services I checked and thought that maybe you could help guide me to your source.
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I’m not doubting what you are saying or that you know what you are talking about. I was only confused because it didn’t show him in the top 100 in the services I checked and thought that maybe you could help guide me to your source.
http://verbalcommits.com/players/matt-carlino
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2010/matt-carlino-6556
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http://verbalcommits.com/players/matt-carlino
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2010/matt-carlino-6556
Right those were the sources checked it shows his as a 4* on espn and 3* on the others. That’s why I thought goose might be able to show me what I was missing. I did find a link from when he originally committed to IU that had him in the top 10 but did anything happen his senior year that would cause him to drop that massively?
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He was ranked 17th as a sophomore when he committed to IU. Fell in rankings after he backed out of IU and moved back to AZ after one season playing high school ball in Indiana.
Again, not going to argue on this anymore. Very confident I know what I am talking about.
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Acceptable, IF that's not the ceiling, and the program continues an upwards trajectory from there...no steps backwards. Though I would say"it's about time, what took you so long"??
What took so long? Wojo doesn't have your talent evaluation skills and your ability to recruit the nations top 15-20 players.
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You may know the family, you may be related, but coaching absolutely played a role. Whether it was what Wojo did directly with Carlino or the system he set him up in, Wojo put him in a position where he had greater success than any other year of his career. He did that despite having the worst supporting cast he had ever had. He scored more than he ever had despite playing at the slowest pace. And he did all of that at a more efficient rate than he had ever done before.
You can dismiss the staff all you like, but this staff put Carlino in the position to have the season he had. That was absolutely because of the coaching. And as it happened with his second lowest usage rate, it also wasn't because he was featured in this offense, because he was featured even more in the Dave Rose offense at BYU.
I don't know their relationship. I don't know what the specifics were. I don't need to know those things to see the system Carlino played in here allowed him to excel moreso than ever before while playing better competition than he faced before. The staff played a role in his best season ever. Discounting that out of hand is nonsensical.
Sorry, but there is no way that a player is put alongside the worst supporting cast of his career against the highest level of competition while playing at the slowest pace and he puts up career numbers in terms of raw scoring and efficiency without the coaching staff playing a role, directly or indirectly.
Shhh...Goose knows things.
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He was ranked 17th as a sophomore when he committed to IU. Fell in rankings after he backed out of IU and moved back to AZ after one season playing high school ball in Indiana.
Again, not going to argue on this anymore. Very confident I know what I am talking about.
A player doesn't drop because he moved to Arizona. If he was ranked 17th, he was well known to ALL of the scouts. A move does not cause a player to drop from 17th all the way out of the top 100.
You really think if Marvin Bagley moved to Idaho for his senior year in high school that scouts would no longer consider him one of the 2 best players in the country?
Pure silliness.
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What took so long? Wojo doesn't have your talent evaluation skills and your ability to recruit the nations top 15-20 players.
Ted you know damn well that this whole "rebuild" COULD have gone quicker..other schools have done it quicker. I know you are going to say how you like the way he's building with 4 year players etc etc, and that's fine. That does not mean he couldn't have rebuilt this thing quicker and STILL been on a 4 year plan, this year and next year etc..It wasn't like he did NOT have the option to bring in "quick fixes" in years one and two.
Honestly, it's not his recruiting that really bothers me, although...this current Freshman class doesn't do anything for me(there are no stars), and i said that at the time. It's almost like he got a little "lazy" with this class and did what a lot of teams do in the NFL, draft(recruit) for need, rather then take the best players available. I hope it works out.
But, I will ask you a question because I respect your opinions a lot...what have you seen from him thus far as a floor Coach that has you impressed??
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Jockey
Of course there is a back story. Dig it up. If you think he backed out of IU and ended up at UCLA, after turning down AZ, is a three star recruit, than I hope Wojo lands that kind of a three star recruit.
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He was ranked 17th as a sophomore when he committed to IU. Fell in rankings after he backed out of IU and moved back to AZ after one season playing high school ball in Indiana.
Again, not going to argue on this anymore. Very confident I know what I am talking about.
I’m not arguing with you. I was genuinely asking because you seemed to be very confident and sure in this. If you feel this was an argument perhaps there are other conversations from scoop you’ve misinterpreted as well. (See now that was an argumentative statement)
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Bagpiping
I was talking argue in general, Brew and Sultan are the experts and was referring to their posts. Truthfully, I don’t give a damn.
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Bagpiping
I was talking argue in general, Brew and Sultan are the experts and was referring to their posts. Truthfully, I don’t give a damn.
Apologies then.
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Bagpiping
I was talking argue in general, Brew and Sultan are the experts and was referring to their posts. Truthfully, I don’t give a damn.
At some point "what you did in many years of college basketball" weighs a lot more than "what you were rated going into college". Especially when considering what impact a coach had/has on getting the most out of a player.
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Bagpiping
No need to apologize. Hate myself for taking the bait on a stupid discussion. Wish I never challenged TAMU on his stating Wojo made Matt a better player.
To be honest, I do have a big chip on my shoulder regarding Matt. His first two months at MU he was bashed on here everyday. IMO he was the same player on his last day at MU as he was day one. Again, that is my belief.
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Ted you know damn well that this whole "rebuild" COULD have gone quicker..other schools have done it quicker. I know you are going to say how you like the way he's building with 4 year players etc etc, and that's fine. That does not mean he couldn't have rebuilt this thing quicker and STILL been on a 4 year plan, this year and next year etc..It wasn't like he did NOT have the option to bring in "quick fixes" in years one and two.
Honestly, it's not his recruiting that really bothers me, although...this current Freshman class doesn't do anything for me(there are no stars), and i said that at the time. It's almost like he got a little "lazy" with this class and did what a lot of teams do in the NFL, draft(recruit) for need, rather then take the best players available. I hope it works out.
I would argue that he did go for quick fixes in one and two. Carlino and Ellenson are examples. I believe he also went for some grad transfers whose names I don't recall.
That is an interesting thought regarding this year's class. Maybe "focused" is a better word than lazy?
We'd probably feel better if he had landed Tillman.
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Bagpiping
No need to apologize. Hate myself for taking the bait on a stupid discussion. Wish I never challenged TAMU on his stating Wojo made Matt a better player.
To be honest, I do have a big chip on my shoulder regarding Matt. His first two months at MU he was bashed on here everyday. IMO he was the same player on his last day at MU as he was day one. Again, that is my belief.
But Wojo put him in the best position to succeed. What other possible explanation is there for him having career highs in both volume and efficiency numbers despite a weaker supporting cast, slower tempo, and tougher opposition?
I'm honestly asking because the only possibilities I can think of are Carlino massively improved from April to November 2014 or the Marquette coaching staff put him in a better position to succeed. And your post seems to dismiss the first option.
EDIT: And whether Carlino improved or not, the point is our coaching staff put him in a better position to succeed.
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Ted you know damn well that this whole "rebuild" COULD have gone quicker..other schools have done it quicker. I know you are going to say how you like the way he's building with 4 year players etc etc, and that's fine. That does not mean he couldn't have rebuilt this thing quicker and STILL been on a 4 year plan, this year and next year etc..It wasn't like he did NOT have the option to bring in "quick fixes" in years one and two.
Honestly, it's not his recruiting that really bothers me, although...this current Freshman class doesn't do anything for me(there are no stars), and i said that at the time. It's almost like he got a little "lazy" with this class and did what a lot of teams do in the NFL, draft(recruit) for need, rather then take the best players available. I hope it works out.
But, I will ask you a question because I respect your opinions a lot...what have you seen from him thus far as a floor Coach that has you impressed??
What were the quick fixes that wojo missed or passed on? I want to know. Let's have your evidence to back up your ironclad assertions
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Bagpiping
No need to apologize. Hate myself for taking the bait on a stupid discussion. Wish I never challenged TAMU on his stating Wojo made Matt a better player.
To be honest, I do have a big chip on my shoulder regarding Matt. His first two months at MU he was bashed on here everyday. IMO he was the same player on his last day at MU as he was day one. Again, that is my belief.
It's your position that carlino was the same player when he got here and when he left? Even though his advanced stats significantly improved from his pre-mu days to his mu season? Your eye test must be remarkable.
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Shhh...Goose knows things.
He does, actually. And he knows more about Matt Carlino than you or anyone else on the board. But keep it snarky...
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Jesmu84
Your splitting hairs talking about improved numbers. In addition, a top grad transfer should have improved numbers. Matt had more turnovers, less assists and averaged 1.3 more points a game at MU. Hardly numbers that jump out as a different player.
And, for the record, my eye test is better than most.
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Jesmu84
Your splitting hairs talking about improved numbers. In addition, a top grad transfer should have improved numbers. Matt had more turnovers, less assists and averaged 1.3 more points a game at MU. Hardly numbers that jump out as a different player.
And, for the record, my eye test is better than most.
Both Lockett and Reinhardt were top grad transfers that saw their scoring and eFG% drop. Both were top grad transfers, like Carlino.
Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that Wojo's offensive system allowed him to be both more efficient and more productive when both are blatantly obvious?
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You can go back and check my posts if you like but I have always held that my expectation when Wojo was hired was a dismal first season, an improved second season, back in the tournament by the third season, a step back in the fourth season, and return to the tournament in the 5th season with an established foundation for a long tournament streak with deep runs in the tournament. So far, we have been right on schedule.
The step back in the fourth season might seem odd, but at the time I was expecting that our highly ranked 2013 class + Luke was going to be graduating at the end of the 3rd season. With such a big class departing it seemed likely that we might take a step back. Especially given how historically hard it has been for us to find a center like Luke.
I posted this a while back but I believe there are three ways to win at a high level in today's college basketball:
1. Recruit one and done talent. The only two schools that can legitimately do this in today's game is Kentucky and Duke.
2. Get good, non-one and done talent and get old. This is your Villanovas, Louisvilles, Purdues, Wisconsins, etc.
3. A combo of the two. Kansas, Michigan State, Arizona, North Carolina, etc.
I know the waiting is excruciating, but we haven't been allowed to get old yet. Wojo's first class are juniors, our best players are sophomores, and our bench is primarily freshmen. With us only losing Rowsey next season and gaining Morrow, Joey, and Bailey, I see a team that is going to be a top 25 team and have a chance to make a deep run in the tournament. The year after that, I see us only losing two meh seniors in Haanif and Heldt and likely gaining some quality freshmen given the players we are in on for the 2019 class. We will be in position to make a deeper run then. I can't see beyond that at the moment, but it has the makings of a strong foundation for high level success.
We are only two games into this season. Until I see something that disrupts my vision of the 18-19 and 19-20 seasons, I am still on board. I'm tired....because rebuilding is exhausting...but I still like where we are heading.
The one concern I have at the moment for the future is the PG position. Howard and Elliott haven't earned my confidence as primary ballhandlers with these first two games. But it has also only been two games and both are nursing nagging injuries so I'm not ready to declare that we need a new PG next year yet.
Wanted to give this a bump since it was such a discerning analysis. Well done!
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He does, actually. And he knows more about Matt Carlino than you or anyone else on the board. But keep it snarky...
Oh you know I will.
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What were the quick fixes that wojo missed or passed on? I want to know. Let's have your evidence to back up your ironclad assertions
Now, obviously none of us know how many guys he tried to land his first or 2nd year here, but...I feel comfortable saying had he chose to, he could have brought in more grad transfers/traditional transfers his first and 2nd years then he did. If Iowa State can sustain a model like that, Wojo certainly could have done it for a year or two until he got his guys in the program. There was also the Juco ranks he could have explored. Iowa State largely builds their program on transfers, and they are in the tourney almost every year, with very good seeds typically.
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Both Lockett and Reinhardt were top grad transfers that saw their scoring and eFG% drop. Both were top grad transfers, like Carlino.
Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that Wojo's offensive system allowed him to be both more efficient and more productive when both are blatantly obvious?
C'mon Brew, this is easy. Carlino was about all we had offensively. The other 4 were out there to free him up or get out of his way. Did Buzz ever run a play to get Lockett an open look? Of course not. Rheinhardt was a bigger part of Wojo's offense but not the focus.
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C'mon Brew, this is easy. Carlino was about all we had offensively. The other 4 were out there to free him up or get out of his way. Did Buzz ever run a play to get Lockett an open look? Of course not. Rheinhardt was a bigger part of Wojo's offense but not the focus.
Which means teams focus on him. Sorry, but that argument only holds up if he's a high volume scorer. But his usage went down while his efficiency went up.
I'm sorry, but none of these "he didn't get any better" arguments hold water logically. Either he improved as a player or the system was better designed for him to maximize his ability. Both of those point to competent coaching. I don't see any other options.
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Saying that coaching didn't benefit Carlino requires ridiculous mental gymnastics. Either the system helped him post his best ever season or the coaching helped him improve to post his best ever season. Regardless, some credit has to go to the coaching staff.
It's Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is usually the one that is true. Either the coaching helped him, or he somehow transformed as a player in a vacuum despite a lesser supporting cast, slower tempo, and tougher competition. Lennys' is right that it is easy, but only in the sense that the coaching staff obviously found ways to maximize his ability. It's irrelevant to me if it was scheme or development, but the odds of it being neither is wholly implausible.
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Sultan
Matt Carlino was born a basketball player and raised in a 24/7 basketball environment. Wojo did not coach him up one bit. I was specifically talking about one player. This is one argument I can say I know what the hell I am talking about.
So it's just a coincidence that he put up by far his best numbers at Marquette despite having worse teammates, facing tougher opponents, playing at a slower pace, and having a lower usage? I don't think Wojo deserves all the credit by any means, and not enough can be said about Matt's work ethic and talent, but it seems unlikely that Wojo didn't have any impact.
We'll have to agree to disagree. If you want to believe that Matt didn't improve one bit as a basketball player from being at Marquette than that's your prerogative. But in my eyes its either Matt improved or the coaching staff implemented a system that benefited him or some combination of the two. By any statistical measure, Matt put up his best numbers in his last season.
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And if Goose knows the family, and the family says "Wojo didn't help," then I think the family is wrong. Brew and TAMU laid it out better than I could.
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11 pages into a Purdue post game thread we are debating semantics about a player that hasn't been on the team in two years.
Gotta love this place.
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Jesmu84
Your splitting hairs talking about improved numbers. In addition, a top grad transfer should have improved numbers. Matt had more turnovers, less assists and averaged 1.3 more points a game at MU. Hardly numbers that jump out as a different player.
And, for the record, my eye test is better than most.
Advanced stats. Not box score averages
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Sultan
I believe Matt thinks very highly of Wojo.
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People who disliked the wojo hire from the beginning continuously use every possible piece of evidence that they can find to shred his program as long as he's here. They find ways to ignore any positive evidence. Such is life.
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People who disliked the wojo hire from the beginning continuously use every possible piece of evidence that they can find to shred his program as long as he's here. They find ways to ignore any positive evidence. Such is life.
Cognitive dissonance
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People who disliked the wojo hire from the beginning continuously use every possible piece of evidence that they can find to shred his program as long as he's here. They find ways to ignore any positive evidence. Such is life.
If the results were better this would not be an issue...So maybe its not just about 'people'.
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Jesmu84
As for me, I was not anti Wojo and middle of the road Wojo at the current time. I simply feel that attaching Matt’s Sr. Year to Wojo coaching him up is a big, big stretch. As stated earlier in the post, I hope he takes that skill and coaches MH and HC up then.
There are positives I can attach to Wojo for his time here. Honestly, to me the biggest came at the 100th ball celebration last June. I believe that Wojo won over a lot of lukewarm believers that night. He showed a different side of himself and it was very appealing. That night I started to believe he has a chance to do something good here. If not, it would not be from a lack of effort.
So, this scooper is pulling for him to have success. Cannot speak for others. That said, this is a ball site and you should be free to share all feelings, not just positives or silver lining next year dreams.
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After we sweep Maui let’s see where we go from there. No Purdue match ups out there. We can outshoot all these teams.
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After we sweep Maui let’s see where we go from there. No Purdue match ups out there. We can outshoot all these teams.
I like our chances against any team in Maui better than i liked our chances against Purdue. Wichita State is though though. And Michigan is about as even a match-up as we could hope for all season IMHO. If we finish in third, I'd be very happy.
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People who disliked the wojo hire from the beginning continuously use every possible piece of evidence that they can find to shred his program as long as he's here. They find ways to ignore any positive evidence. Such is life.
People who liked the wojo hire from the beginning continuously use every possible piece of evidence that they can find to extol his program as long as he's here. They find ways to ignore any negative evidence. Such is life.
Cognitive dissonance.
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Lenny
It is kind of funny, but I was excited for the Wojo hire after his press conference. As many know, I was 100% in Shaka camp and was disappointed he lost him. That said, I warmed to Wojo quickly and was very excited he landed Henry. I thought he was off to the races.
Fast forward a few years, I am far from anti Wojo, but am anti the progress made thus far. I agree with you, the pro Wojo camp struggles to find anything wrong with the progress and highlight any positive, regardless of importance in the big picture. For me, Wojo has shown some recruiting ability and I hope he continues recruiting 4-5 star players. IMO, that is the only way that measurable success in the program will occur.
Lastly, I admit that I know little of what happens behind the scenes today, but I am not exactly sure what the game plan for success at MU looks like today. Is it landing three stars and make them better? Is it swinging for the fences and landing 4-5 stars or is it a combination? IMO, he not shown enough as a coach to win a high level with a slew of three star players.
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In some ways I think that there's two types of #mubb fans. There's the group who demand that MU run a clean and respectable program with kids we can be proud of and expect top half (or better) BEast performance, consistent NCAA appearances, and occasional deep (or very deep) runs. Let's not forget that back in the late 2000s 'Nova was about like we are today. The other group expects MU to be at near a 'blue blood' level and is prepared to sacrifice nearly anything to achieve that rung. Student athletes that go to class? Nah. 'Hostesses' for their campus visit? Sure, if necessary. Checks to family members if nobody finds out? Who cares.
Now we all admit that MU pours huge money into basketball and that a return on that investment is expected. From what I understand from Bill Scholl, MU currently estimates that return as $7 for $1 if my memory holds. But performance must come on the court to sustain that. And building a 'clean' program takes time and is done one step at a time. We seem to be getting there as evidenced by last year's NCAA. Time will tell this year and next year looks pretty bright based on the anticipated roster. But corners aren't going to be cut like they were in the Buzz days and that leaves the 'win at all costs' crowd disappointed in my view.
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People who liked the wojo hire from the beginning continuously use every possible piece of evidence that they can find to extol his program as long as he's here. They find ways to ignore any negative evidence. Such is life.
Cognitive dissonance.
Not sure who you're talking about, but if I'm included this is intellectual dishonesty. I spent a more than necessary amount of time this week going on about our defensive woes.
When I see reasons for concern, like our defense, our roster balance, or any other concerns, I call them out. I've had concerns about player development as well, notably Cheatham.
But I can also see the positives, and anyone denying that Matt had his best season in terms of raw production and advanced efficiency is either missing the blatantly obvious or being deliberately ignorant.
I'm not even assigning credit to Wojo for Matt's development. Maybe Goose is right and Matt was the same player, but if that's true I feel there is no way to honestly say the system Wojo built around him didn't benefit Matt more so than the system at BYU did. That's on coaching. He's not a perfect coach or a finished product, but Matt Carlino absolutely benefitted from coaching decisions Wojo made.
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brewcity
I am going to hate myself for asking, but what the hell? If as you say, Wojo/the system made Carlino better, who else as Wojo/the system made better? I watched Vander Blue get better year over year and never did I feel Buzz was the reason behind it. While I loved Buzz's style of play and players he recruited, I felt he was a bust as a coach. To me his strength was getting players and that chip on the shoulder mentality.
At this point, other than Carlino, who has made big steps year over year? I am asking one favor, do not say Rowsey. From day one on campus many former players stated Rowsey was the real deal, for what type of player he is. I know I am intellectually challenged on ball knowledge, but I cannot think of one player off the top of my head that has had Vander Blue type improvement.
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jsglow
I think you are making a pretty bold statement in describing the camp that wants to win at a high level. I want MU to win, win big and do it the right way. There are winning programs that do the right way. I have no idea how Xavier has become a top twenty program, but my gut says they have done it the right way. That is what I WANT from our program.
I have said it here many times, for decades Xavier was our whipping boy and I hate when we played they played us because they could not beat us. Now, I want us to be Xavier like. Who knows, maybe even a cozy arena of our own like Xavier.
I do not know who on here you thinks want MU to be a dirty program, but I want MU to win big and do it the right way. Doing the right way and not winning big is acceptable to many and not to others. If it is acceptable, scale back on the ball budget.
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brewcity
I am going to hate myself for asking, but what the hell? If as you say, Wojo/the system made Carlino better, who else as Wojo/the system made better? I watched Vander Blue get better year over year and never did I feel Buzz was the reason behind it. While I loved Buzz's style of play and players he recruited, I felt he was a bust as a coach. To me his strength was getting players and that chip on the shoulder mentality.
At this point, other than Carlino, who has made big steps year over year? I am asking one favor, do not say Rowsey. From day one on campus many former players stated Rowsey was the real deal, for what type of player he is. I know I am intellectually challenged on ball knowledge, but I cannot think of one player off the top of my head that has had Vander Blue type improvement.
I would have to agree, there has been no one, you can say Matt Heldt has shown some improvement but a long way to go as against Purdue and South Carolina he
did nothing. Hauser, Howard and Rowsey were good from day 1. Anim not sure and Cheatham has taken a step back, not sure how smart a player he is, driving into
7 footers and has not learned how to shot a mid range jumper or floater. So it gets down to frosh, so the jury is out on them for a few years. Vander was an exception not the rule. His improvement was amazing, but you can also say he was a big disappointment the first 2 years. I think Vander liked the idea he was the man vs. being just one of the players.
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DC
Matt liked being the man and not just one of the players. His year at MU was first time in college that was the man. He was far more comfortable in that role. Funny thing is, his first month here everyone thought he was one of the players and should be scaled back. He reminds of Vander in many ways. Biggest similarity, when he was one of the players nobody liked him, when the man a different story.
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jsglow
I think you are making a pretty bold statement in describing the camp that wants to win at a high level. I want MU to win, win big and do it the right way. There are winning programs that do the right way. I have no idea how Xavier has become a top twenty program, but my gut says they have done it the right way. That is what I WANT from our program.
I have said it here many times, for decades Xavier was our whipping boy and I hate when we played they played us because they could not beat us. Now, I want us to be Xavier like. Who knows, maybe even a cozy arena of our own like Xavier.
I do not know who on here you thinks want MU to be a dirty program, but I want MU to win big and do it the right way. Doing the right way and not winning big is acceptable to many and not to others. If it is acceptable, scale back on the ball budget.
Not so sure about X. Remember Tu Holloway saying “we a bunch of thugs” plus there has been a couple players in the least accused of rape in that program. I’m not saying it’s still run that way but when Mac took over he was more than willing to overlook some shady things
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People who liked the wojo hire from the beginning continuously use every possible piece of evidence that they can find to extol his program as long as he's here. They find ways to ignore any negative evidence. Such is life.
Cognitive dissonance.
Absolutely true as well.
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jsglow
I think you are making a pretty bold statement in describing the camp that wants to win at a high level. I want MU to win, win big and do it the right way. There are winning programs that do the right way. I have no idea how Xavier has become a top twenty program, but my gut says they have done it the right way. That is what I WANT from our program.
I have said it here many times, for decades Xavier was our whipping boy and I hate when we played they played us because they could not beat us. Now, I want us to be Xavier like. Who knows, maybe even a cozy arena of our own like Xavier.
I do not know who on here you thinks want MU to be a dirty program, but I want MU to win big and do it the right way. Doing the right way and not winning big is acceptable to many and not to others. If it is acceptable, scale back on the ball budget.
Well, they've also had multiple players accused of sexual assaults, had a player accused of domestic violence last season, and famously had a brawl on court and then their star player defended it by saying "they were gangsters." They also had Macura pull down his pants during a bar fight...but that was more funny than anything. Like your USC example earlier, maybe not the best comparison.
On the second bolded, why would we scale back the budget when according to Scholl we are making $7 for every $1 spent on basketball?
As for Car3no, if I'm reading your posts right, you agree that his last season was his best, but think Matt deserves all the credit and none should go to Wojo. But this isn't a Wojo thing, because you also think the same thing about Buzz and Vander. We'll have to agree to disagree. The players deserve a lot if not most of the credit for putting in the work, but I believe the coaches play a role as well. FWIW, I think most of the people who were criticizing Matt at the beginning of the season were the same people who criticize just about everything when we are losing. Doesn't make them right, some are just that type of fans. I was a huge fan of Car3no from the day he signed to the present day.
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People who liked the wojo hire from the beginning continuously use every possible piece of evidence that they can find to extol his program as long as he's here. They find ways to ignore any negative evidence. Such is life.
Cognitive dissonance.
I disagree here. Those anti-wojo go quiet when we beat Nova or make the tournament. Those pro-wojo rarely go quiet in any situation. Maybe that's just the perspective I have.
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If the results were better this would not be an issue...So maybe its not just about 'people'.
Constant improvement season upon season from an "empty cupboard" and a brand new coach isn't good enough?
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jsglow
I think you are making a pretty bold statement in describing the camp that wants to win at a high level. I want MU to win, win big and do it the right way. There are winning programs that do the right way. I have no idea how Xavier has become a top twenty program, but my gut says they have done it the right way. That is what I WANT from our program.
I have said it here many times, for decades Xavier was our whipping boy and I hate when we played they played us because they could not beat us. Now, I want us to be Xavier like. Who knows, maybe even a cozy arena of our own like Xavier.
I do not know who on here you thinks want MU to be a dirty program, but I want MU to win big and do it the right way. Doing the right way and not winning big is acceptable to many and not to others. If it is acceptable, scale back on the ball budget.
I'm onboard with us matching X. Or Butler. Or Gonzaga. Or (maybe one day) Nova. Heck, maybe even Georgetown a few years ago.
But you've gotta look at those programs. They either built from within their coaching tree or had a long term coach. Look at what's happened to gtown lately - even historic programs can fail (if only temporarily). It took those programs years or decades to achieve high-level, sustained success.
With MU, we hired an outside (crean), in-house (buzz) and outside (wojo). But they all had vastly different personalities/cultures/roster composition.
We agree here, goose.
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Now, obviously none of us know how many guys he tried to land his first or 2nd year here, but...I feel comfortable saying had he chose to, he could have brought in more grad transfers/traditional transfers his first and 2nd years then he did. If Iowa State can sustain a model like that, Wojo certainly could have done it for a year or two until he got his guys in the program. There was also the Juco ranks he could have explored. Iowa State largely builds their program on transfers, and they are in the tourney almost every year, with very good seeds typically.
No disagreement, I suppose. But I'm glad he chose not to. Look what happened when buzz missed on those types.
Plus, from what I know, the administration put a bit of restriction on what wojo would be able to get with those players.
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Constant improvement season upon season from an "empty cupboard" and a brand new coach isn't good enough?
That was a great story three years ago and no its not enough in 2017 to still have that story. Wojo's here and he is betting on the '18/19 season. Eventually the results on an absolute basis matters.
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That was a great story three years ago and no its not enough in 2017 to still have that story. Wojo's here and he is betting on the '18/19 season. Eventually the results on an absolute basis matters.
Fair enough. For me, constant improvement is good enough. Every year
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TAMU
One question, if you are thinking of dirty programs, do you name off Xavier in your dirty program list? Items you stated are all horrible, but not in million years would I put Xavier be on my watch list of dirty programs. Again, I am in idiot for saying this, but much of you noted on Xavier could have been noted in the Buzz era. Few bitched up that until the "Hillbilly" left town. On the other hand, I noted numerous times that I felt the school was concerned by Buzz's way.
As for Carlino, his last season may have been his best in some ways, but I think he one consistent college player from hos 2nd year until last year at MU. As for those who bashed Matt because we were losing, we lost the whole season. He was bashed for being a journeyman, for being a chucker, for cheating on D and other things. It was stated MU did not need a guy on his third college in four years, that he was trouble. Please try and remember the facts.
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brewcity
I am going to hate myself for asking, but what the hell? If as you say, Wojo/the system made Carlino better, who else as Wojo/the system made better? I watched Vander Blue get better year over year and never did I feel Buzz was the reason behind it. While I loved Buzz's style of play and players he recruited, I felt he was a bust as a coach. To me his strength was getting players and that chip on the shoulder mentality.
At this point, other than Carlino, who has made big steps year over year? I am asking one favor, do not say Rowsey. From day one on campus many former players stated Rowsey was the real deal, for what type of player he is. I know I am intellectually challenged on ball knowledge, but I cannot think of one player off the top of my head that has had Vander Blue type improvement.
What the hell is pretty much the exact thought I had when you repeated in post after post that Carlino didn't benefit from Marquette's coaching despite there being more than enough statistical evidence to prove otherwise.
First, I do think Buzz and the staff aided greatly in Blue's development. His three-point shot was completely rebuilt. His shot selection became much better. For someone that brags about their "eye test" ability, I can't help but wonder how you can say that Blue's improvement wasn't a result of coaching.
As far as who else without mentioning Rowsey...that's one of my concerns with Wojo! There are five players that can be looked at based on time here with Wojo: Fischer, JJ, Duane, Heldt, and Cheatham.
Luke consistently showed offensive improvement, but his lack of defensive development was concerning. JJ is probably the best case for Wojo as a developer of talent. In the middle of his junior year, he turned a corner. His shot selection improved and defensively he gambled less. Duane is a concern because he seemed to take a step back. He became less assertive on offense and never felt nearly as threatening a player. Heldt has definitely improved on both ends. He will likely never be a dominant offensive player but he is good at picking his spots and is a solid yet not spectacular defender. I'm concerned about the regression of Cheatham in his sophomore year, and I feel his offensive efficiency improvement was largely just a factor of him not playing the point (thus reducing his TO%) and feel his eFG% drop and his inability to develop a right hand are both concerning.
I have concerns about the development of our players. I look at Markus and Sam and feel they both have legitimate potential to be at least All-Conference players. If they do not get there, that is a huge worry. But talking development and talking about having a system that allows players to flourish are two different things.
Henry Ellenson flourished in Wojo's system, and there would be an argument that he did improve significantly if you look at his final third of the season shot selection, three point accuracy, and overall efficiency. Andrew Rowsey and Markus Howard both flourished in this system. Luke Fischer flourished. These are all guys that didn't just put up numbers, but they did so efficiently. Every team has players that put up numbers, but under Wojo we have players that are efficient while doing so.
Right now, I feel that Wojo's best traits are his recruiting and his abilities as an offensive coach. He does a good job of getting guys that play well together offensively, space the floor, shoot accurately, and more often than not put us in a position to win games. The most worrisome traits are long-term development of players and defense. But while I have those concerns, I can also see how players have thrived in this system, and Carlino was one of those players.
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With MU, we hired an outside (crean), in-house (buzz) and outside (wojo). But they all had vastly different personalities/cultures/roster composition.
I do think this is a big part of why other programs like X, Butler, and Bucky have success. When they have had a successful coach leave, they have kept hires within the family. Minimizes the need for a rebuild and minimizes the adjustment time for the coach setting up his culture and system. Whether you agreed or not, the Marquette administration felt we needed a clean break from the Crean/Buzz years. Puts us at a disadvantage.
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brew
I will stick with my eye test abilities and you can stick with yours. If the guys you noted, five "flourished" on last years team, how do you define flourish? If five guys flourishing makes us a bubble team the program is in big trouble.
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TAMU
One question, if you are thinking of dirty programs, do you name off Xavier in your dirty program list? Items you stated are all horrible, but not in million years would I put Xavier be on my watch list of dirty programs. Again, I am in idiot for saying this, but much of you noted on Xavier could have been noted in the Buzz era. Few bitched up that until the "Hillbilly" left town. On the other hand, I noted numerous times that I felt the school was concerned by Buzz's way.
I do and don't think X is on the dirty program list. From what I can tell, when the players committed violent acts as students, the university responded promptly and appropriately. But the fact that it was a repeated issue makes me wonder if some of these issues were known in advance and the staff turned a blind eye until they couldn't. I don't know. I don't have all the information. And yeah, I consider us under Buzz a dirty program. While I appreciated what he did on the court, I was one of of the few who "bitched" about that before the "Hillbilly" left town.
As for Carlino, his last season may have been his best in some ways, but I think he one consistent college player from hos 2nd year until last year at MU. As for those who bashed Matt because we were losing, we lost the whole season. He was bashed for being a journeyman, for being a chucker, for cheating on D and other things. It was stated MU did not need a guy on his third college in four years, that he was trouble. Please try and remember the facts.
The numbers tell me that Carlino was head and shoulders better his last season. That's not a knock on Matt. He was very good at BYU. But he took his game to another level at Marquette.
I don't deny the facts. I remember what people said at the beginning of the season. I remember Ners bitching that Carlino was blocking the development of Magic Dawson. I remember all the chucker comments and criticisms of his D. I also remember most of who was making those comments. They were tearing down anything and everything about the program. Carlino was their favorite whipping boy at the beginning of the season but they couldn't really keep that up because of how great of numbers Matt ended up putting up. Kid was a stud. Some people are willing to look at handful of not great performances at the beginning of a season and declare that a player is no good. Those people are often proven wrong and Matt proved them wrong in a big way.
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brew
I will stick with my eye test abilities and you can stick with yours. If the guys you noted, five "flourished" on last years team, how do you define flourish? If five guys flourishing makes us a bubble team the program is in big trouble.
At least I'm willing to give Wojo both credit for his successes and blame for his failures. All you are willing to do is throw him under the bus and deny successes. And yes, many guys flourished under our offensive system last year. The reason we were near the bubble is because our defense was atrocious, which is one of the failures I am willing to address.
We had the 8th most efficient offense in the country last year. Even our 2003 team did not score as many points per possession as our offense last year. But apparently you think the coaches had nothing to do with that? Hell, it's harder to NOT give credit to what was almost certainly the most efficient offense in Marquette history. Our defense still sucked, and I can acknowledge that, but I think it's damn near impossible to deny this offense has been showing marked improvement every year and many players, including Carlino, have benefited from it.
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People who liked the wojo hire from the beginning continuously use every possible piece of evidence that they can find to extol his program as long as he's here. They find ways to ignore any negative evidence. Such is life.
Cognitive dissonance.
This is a little too simple reasoning. Im not pro wojo or anti wojo, im pro Marquette. If he does well great, if he does poorly he needs to go. I do think its irrational to think we can have and expect a top 10 team perrenially in the first 3-4 years when the first 2 years were basically an absolute washout with a completely bare cupboard. Wojo has recruited extremely well and 95% of winning in colloege hoops is recruiting so hes fine by me to this point.
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Everyone crapping on Haanif needs to cool off. No one could get anything going in the lane other than floaters. Picking out Haanif as our big problem isn't fair or accurate.
Plus Tax.
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brew
I will stick with my eye test abilities and you can stick with yours. If the guys you noted, five "flourished" on last years team, how do you define flourish? If five guys flourishing makes us a bubble team the program is in big trouble.
Most eye tests, unless validated through statistics, are pretty much sh*t.
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brew
You crack me up. If you ever took the time to read my posts you would realize that I have not said ONE negative thing about Wojo. In past 24 hours I did not give him credit for Carlino's season, but have not said one negative thing about him. In addition, I have complimented him several times for swinging for the fences on Grimes. Not once, have I thrown him under the bus on anything.
I have stated that progress is frustrating slow. I have stated that success of program does not match money spent. I have said I am not sure that the University wants, or feels it needs, to be a top 20 program. I have said that I would takes Rick's SLU program over current state of program. To be honest, all the previous statements I would say again today.
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Goose,
Saying Wojo "didn't coach Matt up one bit" is saying something negative about Wojo. You want to see Matt deserves most of the credit, sure. But to say Wojo had Matt in the program for an entire season and didn't do one thing to help develop him...that's about the most damning thing you can say about a coach.
Progress is frustratingly slow. Absolutely agree.
Matching money spent? Disagree. We make $7 for every $1 spent on basketball. I'd be more concerned if basketball was a drag on the rest of the university but it's not.
I can promise you that the university desperately wants to be a top 10 program again. They don't just want to be top 10, they want to be top 10 and stay there.
I might take Rick's 11-12 SLU team over the one we have this season. But not the program. That program was a house of cards built on rotting foundation and Rick was the one thing holding it together.
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TAMU
I don't want to give Matt the credit. I think he was the best player on a horrible team. Wojo did not bring him here to develop him and Matt did not come here to be developed. I did happen see Matt play basketball quite a bit more than most on here the decade or so prior to his arrival. I WOULD think I have a better baseline to judge him off. But, tired of the topic...I agree Wojo coached him up beginning with game #6.
Progress actually sucks.
If it is $7 made for every dollar spent, double the budget. Helluva of an investment.
I flat out believe they say certain things. I have heard of quite a few heated discussions of the BOT on the top 20 program debate. IMO, 99% of it is lip service. If it is not, they do not have people capable of making it happen.
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brew
You crack me up. If you ever took the time to read my posts you would realize that I have not said ONE negative thing about Wojo. In past 24 hours I did not give him credit for Carlino's season, but have not said one negative thing about him. In addition, I have complimented him several times for swinging for the fences on Grimes. Not once, have I thrown him under the bus on anything.
I don't think you realize how loudly your omissions can speak.
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I disagree here. Those anti-wojo go quiet when we beat Nova or make the tournament. Those pro-wojo rarely go quiet in any situation. Maybe that's just the perspective I have.
Of course it's the perspective you have. The true believers (you're in this group) think any criticism is out of line. And they think that's reasonable. I don't. I'm not a Wojo hater - he was my second choice (after Shaka) to get the job and based on what we know so far maybe he should have been my first. I give him an A for bringing in nice kids and for being a solid face of the program. The rest is a mixed bag that I won't make the board favorite "cupboard bare" excuse for because it's BS. Wojo was still staring 2 of Buzz's players in year three of his tenure. In Buzz's year three there were no Crean players on the team! I still think Wojo can be successful here - and I really hope that he is. But I'm not knocked out by the roster he's put together in year 4.
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Lenny
You read my mind.
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Of course it's the perspective you have. The true believers (you're in this group) think any criticism is out of line. And they think that's reasonable. I don't. I'm not a Wojo hater - he was my second choice (after Shaka) to get the job and based on what we know so far maybe he should have been my first. I give him an A for bringing in nice kids and for being a solid face of the program. The rest is a mixed bag that I won't make the board favorite "cupboard bare" excuse for because it's BS. Wojo was still staring 2 of Buzz's players in year three of his tenure. In Buzz's year three there were no Crean players on the team! I still think Wojo can be successful here - and I really hope that he is. But I'm not knocked out by the roster he's put together in year 4.
I don't believe that "any criticism" is out of line. What I notice, is the same people come out and criticize the program - or more likely the coach - when things aren't 100% winning and bringing in 5 stars. When things are going well, they're nowhere to be seen.
Criticism on a players performance? Valid. Criticism on a coaching decision (win or lose)? Valid. Etc.
Criticism is valid when warranted.
When we aren't performing to the levels of "elites"? Not warranted because that's not who we are or who we will be.
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Jockey
Of course there is a back story. Dig it up. If you think he backed out of IU and ended up at UCLA, after turning down AZ, is a three star recruit, than I hope Wojo lands that kind of a three star recruit.
I guess I misunderstood your post. I thought you were saying he dropped from #17 to sub-100 because he backed out on IU and moved to Arizona.
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Due to lack of time and all the comms issues just finished reading this and I’m amazed at the lack of knowledge about basketball strategy and stats of some people here. We will be fine with Wojo.
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Of course it's the perspective you have. The true believers (you're in this group) think any criticism is out of line. And they think that's reasonable. I don't. I'm not a Wojo hater - he was my second choice (after Shaka) to get the job and based on what we know so far maybe he should have been my first. I give him an A for bringing in nice kids and for being a solid face of the program. The rest is a mixed bag that I won't make the board favorite "cupboard bare" excuse for because it's BS. Wojo was still staring 2 of Buzz's players in year three of his tenure. In Buzz's year three there were no Crean players on the team! I still think Wojo can be successful here - and I really hope that he is. But I'm not knocked out by the roster he's put together in year 4.
My view is we hired an inexperienced head coach and the program paid the price for his lack of head coaching experience . The inexperience manifested itself in roster management. That said our coach is a very good recruiter and in college athletics recruiting is the biggest part of the battle. We have real talent on the team this year and that will carry through us through the season. I think the coaches have realized where they need to be in terms of roster management and have an excellent pipeline and balance of both athletic kids and skilled players in the program . The in game coaching will continue to improve over time, especially because all the players have been recruited by the current coaching staff so there are no excuses any more. We are in a very tough conference that is getting tougher by the year. Hence, the necessity for top level coaching performance and no steps backward. I am expecting us to be 3rd in the Big East and make it to the second weekend of the tournament this year.
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My view is we hired an inexperienced head coach and the program paid the price for his lack of head coaching experience . The inexperience manifested itself in roster management. That said our coach is a very good recruiter and in college athletics recruiting is the biggest part of the battle. We have real talent on the team this year and that will carry through us through the season. I think the coaches have realized where they need to be in terms of roster management and have an excellent pipeline and balance of both athletic kids and skilled players in the program . The in game coaching will continue to improve over time, especially because all the players have been recruited by the current coaching staff so there are no excuses any more. We are in a very tough conference that is getting tougher by the year. Hence, the necessity for top level coaching performance and no steps backward. I am expecting us to be 3rd in the Big East and make it to the second weekend of the tournament this year.
Your expectations are unrealistic.
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Wojo’s a decent recruiter now. Knot fur sure watt ta expect should Stan bolt, doe, hey?
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Wojo’s a decent recruiter now. Knot fur sure watt ta expect should Stan bolt, doe, hey?
Cud bee trubble, yanna-wanna?
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Hey, 82, if you continue your emulation of 4ever's wretched attempt at humor, I'll put you on Ignore, as well. So there!
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Wojo’s a decent recruiter now. Knot fur sure watt ta expect should Stan bolt, doe, hey?
I am a big fan of Stan, so if we lost him it would surely be a body blow. That said, Stan is making some serious coin for his efforts so it would take a pretty good head coaching job to lure him away.