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Author Topic: Marquette NBA Thread  (Read 95553 times)

Skitch

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #100 on: December 03, 2017, 07:46:26 PM »
Jamil started for the Clippers tonight. Has a couple of 3s and a bunch of fouls. Griffin's injury should lead to some opportunities for him.

Skitch

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #101 on: December 04, 2017, 07:45:00 PM »
Might not fit here but Novak is filling in announcing the Bucks game on FS-Wisc. Seems to be pretty good thus far.

skianth16

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #102 on: December 04, 2017, 08:28:48 PM »
Just checking in here to see how Wojo's guys are doing. Oh, wait...

wadesworld

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #103 on: December 04, 2017, 09:31:25 PM »
Just checking in here to see how Wojo's guys are doing. Oh, wait...

How many guys did Buzz have in the NBA after his third year as a head coach?

Flat out stupid.

skianth16

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #104 on: December 05, 2017, 01:04:49 AM »
How many guys did Buzz have in the NBA after his third year as a head coach?

Flat out stupid.

Even though Buzz didn't recruit Wes, on senior day, Wes gave a lot of credit to Buzz for loosening the reins and letting him play.  Then you have Jimmy and Jae, who are clearly Buzz guys, and they're the best MU has in the NBA right now. Throw in some appearances from Vander and Buycks, and you start to understand that Buzz could get guys into the league. I really don't get how you can call that stupid.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #105 on: December 05, 2017, 06:25:16 AM »
Even though Buzz didn't recruit Wes, on senior day, Wes gave a lot of credit to Buzz for loosening the reins and letting him play.  Then you have Jimmy and Jae, who are clearly Buzz guys, and they're the best MU has in the NBA right now. Throw in some appearances from Vander and Buycks, and you start to understand that Buzz could get guys into the league. I really don't get how you can call that stupid.

He said first three years that amounts to Lazar and Jimmy. Maybe includ Wes but that’s pushing it
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brewcity77

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #106 on: December 05, 2017, 06:27:53 AM »
Even though Buzz didn't recruit Wes, on senior day, Wes gave a lot of credit to Buzz for loosening the reins and letting him play.  Then you have Jimmy and Jae, who are clearly Buzz guys, and they're the best MU has in the NBA right now. Throw in some appearances from Vander and Buycks, and you start to understand that Buzz could get guys into the league. I really don't get how you can call that stupid.

Because Wojo has completed three seasons as coach. After three years of Buzz, Jimmy was a just drafted rookie, Lazar was washing out of the league, Blue and Jae were still in school, and Buycks was in France.

Sorry, Buzz doesn't get extra credit because a Tom Crean recruit thanked him at senior day. Comparing Wojo's NBA pedigree to Buzz is problematic in two regards. First, many Buzz guys took a long time to settle into roles, so looking at Buzz 9 years later and Wojo after year 3 is apples and oranges. Second, if you're crediting Buzz for guys TC recruited, we'll have to look at how Wojo did with guys at Duke. Not sure that comparison will still favor Buzz.

skianth16

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #107 on: December 05, 2017, 08:24:53 AM »
Because Wojo has completed three seasons as coach. After three years of Buzz, Jimmy was a just drafted rookie, Lazar was washing out of the league, Blue and Jae were still in school, and Buycks was in France.

Sorry, Buzz doesn't get extra credit because a Tom Crean recruit thanked him at senior day. Comparing Wojo's NBA pedigree to Buzz is problematic in two regards. First, many Buzz guys took a long time to settle into roles, so looking at Buzz 9 years later and Wojo after year 3 is apples and oranges. Second, if you're crediting Buzz for guys TC recruited, we'll have to look at how Wojo did with guys at Duke. Not sure that comparison will still favor Buzz.

Getting guys to the NBA is about coaching, not recruiting. Wojo didn't get Henry into the NBA. Henry would have gone pro right from high school if he had the option. We got lucky that he made a pit stop at MU along the way, but we knew what his plans were from day 1.

Buzz took relative unknowns and turned them into pro prospects. To me, that's good coaching. Wes obviously thought enough of the way Buzz changed his personal trajectory as a player to thank him on senior night. Again, to me, that's the sign of a good coach, a coach who is getting the most out of his players. And yeah, you're absolutely right that it took guys like Jimmy and Jae some time to find their place, but they still went from Juco to the NBA because of Buzz. That's a big deal. I think you're focusing too much on the recruiting side of things and not enough on what happens after the guys sign their LOIs.

GGGG

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #108 on: December 05, 2017, 08:25:50 AM »
Getting guys to the NBA is about coaching, not recruiting. Wojo didn't get Henry into the NBA. Henry would have gone pro right from high school if he had the option. We got lucky that he made a pit stop at MU along the way, but we knew what his plans were from day 1.

Buzz took relative unknowns and turned them into pro prospects. To me, that's good coaching. Wes obviously thought enough of the way Buzz changed his personal trajectory as a player to thank him on senior night. Again, to me, that's the sign of a good coach, a coach who is getting the most out of his players. And yeah, you're absolutely right that it took guys like Jimmy and Jae some time to find their place, but they still went from Juco to the NBA because of Buzz. That's a big deal. I think you're focusing too much on the recruiting side of things and not enough on what happens after the guys sign their LOIs.


No one said Buzz wasn't a good coach.  Keep building the strawmen.

skianth16

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #109 on: December 05, 2017, 08:41:20 AM »

No one said Buzz wasn't a good coach.  Keep building the strawmen.

It's all stemming from determining what the benchmark for the program should be and how we expect our coach to perform. Using Buzz as that benchmark explains why some of us are not impressed with Wojo. And in defending Wojo, there have been plenty of comments minimizing what Buzz did, so offering a refresher on how we played and what kinds of guys we had seemed needed.

Definitely didn't need to post in this thread. That was a d**k move on my part. My bad.

brewcity77

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #110 on: December 05, 2017, 11:20:57 AM »
Getting guys to the NBA is about coaching, not recruiting. Wojo didn't get Henry into the NBA. Henry would have gone pro right from high school if he had the option. We got lucky that he made a pit stop at MU along the way, but we knew what his plans were from day 1.

Buzz took relative unknowns and turned them into pro prospects. To me, that's good coaching. Wes obviously thought enough of the way Buzz changed his personal trajectory as a player to thank him on senior night. Again, to me, that's the sign of a good coach, a coach who is getting the most out of his players. And yeah, you're absolutely right that it took guys like Jimmy and Jae some time to find their place, but they still went from Juco to the NBA because of Buzz. That's a big deal. I think you're focusing too much on the recruiting side of things and not enough on what happens after the guys sign their LOIs.

This post is an utter load of s#!t. So Buzz gets credit for guys that weren't his recruits but Wojo doesn't get credit for Henry because he was a five-star? I guess it's easy to defense your complete horsecrap argument when you make up the rules as you go, shift the goalposts to fit your malleable position. Sorry, but you lost all credibility with this post. But have fun making up the rules as you go along and changing them when it doesn't suit you.

EDIT: And Wesley Matthews was ALWAYS the best pro prospect of the Amigos. Always. He didn't get to the league because Buzz transformed him, he got to the league because he is 6'5", a great three-point shooter, and a quality defender. Dominic James was never big enough nor a good enough shooter. Jerel wasn't a good enough man defender, shooter, and definitely too small to play the 2 and didn't have the handle for the 1. Anyone who didn't see that Wes was clearly the best pro prospect from their freshman year despite aggregate stats was blind.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 11:23:51 AM by brewcity77 »

wadesworld

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #111 on: December 05, 2017, 11:35:38 AM »
And I would argue that "getting guys to the NBA" is 90% about recruiting.  Take a look at how many years most college players in the NBA spent in college.  My guess is the average is around 1.5, though I could be very wrong.  It's very rare for a guy like Frank Kaminsky to come in and be completely off NBA radars and steadily progress though 4 (or 5) years of college basketball and end up being a 1st round pick.  It does happen, but it's very much the exception, not the rule.

brewcity77

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #112 on: December 05, 2017, 11:45:11 AM »
And I would argue that "getting guys to the NBA" is 90% about recruiting.  Take a look at how many years most college players in the NBA spent in college.  My guess is the average is around 1.5, though I could be very wrong.  It's very rare for a guy like Frank Kaminsky to come in and be completely off NBA radars and steadily progress though 4 (or 5) years of college basketball and end up being a 1st round pick.  It does happen, but it's very much the exception, not the rule.

Agreed. In the past 6 years, 180 players have been drafted in the first round. 22 of them have been seniors, only 12.2%. If you include second round picks, it's 97/360 for 26.9%. Developing players is nice, but if you are getting NBA talent, you usually know in the first year or two.

brewcity77

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #113 on: December 05, 2017, 12:07:25 PM »
Another note on Wojo vs Buzz in the NBA. Since Buzz left, both coaches have had three full seasons at their new jobs. The only player drafted from either school was Henry Ellenson. Buzz's best players at Va Tech (LeDay and Allen) are both overseas. So let's not pretend he has some magic wand that turns non-NBA guys into NBA guys.

Buzz is a good coach. I'm happy for what he did here. He's generally been better at developing JUCO players than high school players, which is part of why 66% of the MU players recruited by him to land in the NBA (Jimmy, Jae, DJO, Buycks, Vander, Jamil) came from the JUCO ranks.

skianth16

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #114 on: December 05, 2017, 12:09:41 PM »
Agreed. In the past 6 years, 180 players have been drafted in the first round. 22 of them have been seniors, only 12.2%. If you include second round picks, it's 97/360 for 26.9%. Developing players is nice, but if you are getting NBA talent, you usually know in the first year or two.

Talk about shifting goalposts... The NBA draft is 2 rounds, so looking only at the first round doesn't really prove any point about how guys get into the league. And then you only include seniors, so again, you're intentionally limiting the sample size in an attempt to make your argument. How about looking guys that are 3 or more years removed from high school that get signed - that would be a more logical way to determine whether college coaches are developing the players or not.

The majority of guys getting NBA contracts aren't one and done, so coaching and developing players has to be more important than recruiting, no?

PGsHeroes32

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #115 on: December 05, 2017, 12:12:39 PM »
Wade has really found his role in Cleveland

Him and the Cavs rolling now
Lazar picking up where the BIG 3 left off....

Ellenson Family Reunion

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #116 on: December 05, 2017, 12:14:44 PM »
nm read it wrong
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 12:17:36 PM by Ellenson Family Reunion »

skianth16

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #117 on: December 05, 2017, 12:15:05 PM »
Another note on Wojo vs Buzz in the NBA. Since Buzz left, both coaches have had three full seasons at their new jobs. The only player drafted from either school was Henry Ellenson. Buzz's best players at Va Tech (LeDay and Allen) are both overseas. So let's not pretend he has some magic wand that turns non-NBA guys into NBA guys.

Buzz is a good coach. I'm happy for what he did here. He's generally been better at developing JUCO players than high school players, which is part of why 66% of the MU players recruited by him to land in the NBA (Jimmy, Jae, DJO, Buycks, Vander, Jamil) came from the JUCO ranks.

Do you think any of the guys that made it into the league under Buzz would have made it without him? Vander is the only one I can remember hearing any kind of NBA murmurings about prior to their arrival at MU.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #118 on: December 05, 2017, 12:26:24 PM »
Do you think any of the guys that made it into the league under Buzz would have made it without him? Vander is the only one I can remember hearing any kind of NBA murmurings about prior to their arrival at MU.

Lazar. I also think Jamil gets there eventually maybe even earlier with a different coach
“More the knowledge, lesser the ego. Lesser the knowledge, more the ego.” Albert Einstein a note for some posters

BM1090

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #119 on: December 05, 2017, 12:36:45 PM »
Lazar. I also think Jamil gets there eventually maybe even earlier with a different coach

Also definitely Wes if we're counting him.

I think Crowder had a good shot no matter where he ended up in college. Same for Butler.

Both those guys were great here but they got to the league because they had size, could defend and were capable shooters. That probably would have been true even if they didn't attend MU. Butler did most of his improving after he made it to the NBA

Formerly MUeagle1090

brewcity77

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #120 on: December 05, 2017, 01:08:31 PM »
Talk about shifting goalposts... The NBA draft is 2 rounds, so looking only at the first round doesn't really prove any point about how guys get into the league. And then you only include seniors, so again, you're intentionally limiting the sample size in an attempt to make your argument. How about looking guys that are 3 or more years removed from high school that get signed - that would be a more logical way to determine whether college coaches are developing the players or not.

The majority of guys getting NBA contracts aren't one and done, so coaching and developing players has to be more important than recruiting, no?

You brought up the development, but I was specifically responding to wades.

Do you think any of the guys that made it into the league under Buzz would have made it without him? Vander is the only one I can remember hearing any kind of NBA murmurings about prior to their arrival at MU.

Yes, no doubt. Jimmy absolutely gets there regardless and I thought that from about midway through his first year at Marquette. I think Wes and Jae both get there. And I think Vander, Jamil, and Dwight all may have gotten there sooner with a different coach.

Buzz did fine with those guys and certainly didn't impede them, but I don't think he made them "more" NBA players than they would have been without him.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #121 on: December 05, 2017, 01:11:17 PM »
Not to be this guy but can we keep this thread about what our NBA and G-League alumni are doing?

Skianth16 this is 100% your fault for getting this thread off topic with your need to take shots at wojo in what was a perfectly nice update thread.
“More the knowledge, lesser the ego. Lesser the knowledge, more the ego.” Albert Einstein a note for some posters

skianth16

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #122 on: December 05, 2017, 01:20:06 PM »
Not to be this guy but can we keep this thread about what our NBA and G-League alumni are doing?

Skianth16 this is 100% your fault for getting this thread off topic with your need to take shots at wojo in what was a perfectly nice update thread.

Fully aware. I did note that and comment that it was unneeded. Go ahead and mark a little tally for yourself on your scorecard.

SaveOD238

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #123 on: December 08, 2017, 08:21:48 PM »
Bill Simmons’ column today was talking about the state of the Clippers and included the line “I don’t even know who Wilson is.”  Does that say more about the Clips, Jamil, or Marquette?

MUBigDance

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Re: Marquette NBA Thread
« Reply #124 on: December 08, 2017, 10:57:49 PM »
Comparing Wojo v Buzz is not an NBA thing. That whole premise is a red herring. It’s about success in the BE and the NCAA tourney (and a bit about beating UW