NBA '17

[Spotcheck Billy]

For the record, I and many other Packers fans love Cutler. 

I agree with this analysis. 

[GB Warrior]

For the record, I and many other Packers fans love Cutler. 

Seconded.

Football aside, I can't wait for him in the booth, as I personally find him entertaining. I think he ends up being better than Romo. His disdain for stupid questions bodes well.

[MerrittsMustache]

Jay Cutler looks all the time like I look during conversations about Jay Cutler

That's a pretty good line.

Jay Cutler just might be the most underrated underachiever in NFL history. He was far more talented than his production would indicate, but he was still far more productive than he gets credit for being.

Getting back to the NBA, the Bucks should try to swing a trade for Eric Bledsoe who always seems to be on the block. Henson and a 1st Rounder might actually get it done. Phoenix could use a big and they were supposedly listening to NY's offer of a 1st Rounder and Courtney Lee's awful 3-year's remaining. Who knows?

[GB Warrior]

That's a pretty good line.

Jay Cutler just might be the most underrated underachiever in NFL history. He was far more talented than his production would indicate, but he was still far more productive than he gets credit for being.

Getting back to the NBA, the Bucks should try to swing a trade for Eric Bledsoe who always seems to be on the block. Henson and a 1st Rounder might actually get it done. Phoenix could use a big and they were supposedly listening to NY's offer of a 1st Rounder and Courtney Lee's awful 3-year's remaining. Who knows?

I think Henson is a bad contract but it's not that bad - I actually thought it was better than Plumlee's, and we traded that. He can still be a good role player.

I would like that trade. Is there a possibility of being the 2 teams that facilitate the Rockets-Knicks trade? I have no idea what the Knicks are hoping to get out of that trade. Ariza and draft assets? The problem I see is that it's a bunch of bad contracts that need to get moved (Lee, Henson, Ryan Anderson).

[MerrittsMustache]

I think Henson is a bad contract but it's not that bad - I actually thought it was better than Plumlee's, and we traded that. He can still be a good role player.

I would like that trade. Is there a possibility of being the 2 teams that facilitate the Rockets-Knicks trade? I have no idea what the Knicks are hoping to get out of that trade. Ariza and draft assets? The problem I see is that it's a bunch of bad contracts that need to get moved (Lee, Henson, Ryan Anderson).

Just for fun and because I enjoy the NBA Trade Machine...

To Knicks: PG Matthew Dellavedova, PF Spencer Hawes* (from Mil), C Clint Capela (from Hou)

To Rockets: F Carmelo Anthony (from NY)

To Bucks: PG Eric Bledsoe (from Phx)

To Suns: F Ryan Anderson (from Hou)

Assuming Phx and possibly NY would also get a 1st Rounder, who says no?


* - $6M expiring contract

[GB Warrior]

Just for fun and because I enjoy the NBA Trade Machine...

To Knicks: PG Matthew Dellavedova, PF Spencer Hawes* (from Mil), C Clint Capela (from Hou)

To Rockets: F Carmelo Anthony (from NY)

To Bucks: PG Eric Bledsoe (from Phx)

To Suns: F Ryan Anderson (from Hou)

Assuming Phx and possibly NY would also get a 1st Rounder, who says no?


* - $6M expiring contract

Give Monroe to the Knicks instead and maybe you have a deal.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Nm

[MU82]

Just for fun and because I enjoy the NBA Trade Machine...

To Knicks: PG Matthew Dellavedova, PF Spencer Hawes* (from Mil), C Clint Capela (from Hou)

To Rockets: F Carmelo Anthony (from NY)

To Bucks: PG Eric Bledsoe (from Phx)

To Suns: F Ryan Anderson (from Hou)

Assuming Phx and possibly NY would also get a 1st Rounder, who says no?


* - $6M expiring contract

Sure.

And after the Knicks cut Hawes, I wouldn't mind seeing the Hornets pick him back up to be their third center. He did a nice job for them in that role. Maybe Henry will be Hawes-ish someday!

[Jockey]

Just for fun and because I enjoy the NBA Trade Machine...

To Knicks: PG Matthew Dellavedova, PF Spencer Hawes* (from Mil), C Clint Capela (from Hou)

To Rockets: F Carmelo Anthony (from NY)

To Bucks: PG Eric Bledsoe (from Phx)

To Suns: F Ryan Anderson (from Hou)

Assuming Phx and possibly NY would also get a 1st Rounder, who says no?


* - $6M expiring contract

As a Bucks fan, it would be an absolute steal to get Bledsoe for Dellavedove and a 1st rounder (which, barring injuries would be in the 20+ range).

[DegenerateDish]

Interesting Teddy Greenstein article yesterday about the new Bucks arena, and the Bucks owners trying to capture fans from Chicago. Makes sense, especially in the wealthy northern burbs where it's just as easy to get to Milwaukee (probably easier) than downtown Chicago.

[🏀]

Interesting Teddy Greenstein article yesterday about the new Bucks arena, and the Bucks owners trying to capture fans from Chicago. Makes sense, especially in the wealthy northern burbs where it's just as easy to get to Milwaukee (probably easier) than downtown Chicago.

And ya know, the Bulls being a full on burning train car headed for the oil refinery.

[DegenerateDish]

And ya know, the Bulls being a full on burning train car headed for the oil refinery.

100% yes.

Between the new building and Giannis, I'd much rather go to a Bucks game than a Bulls game in the next couple of years, not close really.

[MU82]

Jay Cutler just might be the most underrated underachiever in NFL history. He was far more talented than his production would indicate, but he was still far more productive than he gets credit for being.

Not sure what "underrated underachiever" even means.

As for being "far more productive than he gets credit for being" ... well, I'm thinking he gets about the right amount of credit for his productivity.

Cutler's career interception percentage of 3.3% was slightly worse than the 3.2% of Charlie Batch - who, believe it or not, played one more season in the NFL than Cutler did. Unlike Mark Sanchez, Cutler lost more games as a starter than he won. Cutler NEVER had a 30-TD season, but he did manage to lead the league in INTs twice. He choked away seemingly sure playoff berths as a starter for both the Broncos and Bears, and he famously recorded exactly one postseason victory in 11 years. "Productive" wouldn't be my word to describe him.

Now, if you're talking about the silly folks who say Cutler is "the worst QB ever," yeah, he was underrated and relatively productive. But most sensible observers merely say Cutler had a mediocre, 11-year NFL career. With a 68-71 record and a 208-146 TD-INT breakdown, I'd say "mediocre" describe him pretty well.

So one doesn't even have to go to the eye test - those who watched him for years saw repeatedly that he not only wasn't a winner but that he had an uncanny ability to make back-breaking, boneheaded plays - because the stats paint a picture of mediocrity.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Cutler was the best qb in Chicago since MacMahon. Unfortunately,  that's not saying a lot

[MerrittsMustache]

Not sure what "underrated underachiever" even means.

He choked away seemingly sure playoff berths as a starter for both the Broncos and Bears, and he famously recorded exactly one postseason victory in 11 years. "Productive" wouldn't be my word to describe him.

This is exactly the type of stuff I'm talking about. In 2008, Denver lost 3 straight to end the season and finished 8-8, which is considered Cutler "choking" while conveniently ignoring the fact that Denver's D allowed 112 points in those 3 games. In 2013, the Bears lost their last 2 games to miss the playoffs. In one game, the D allowed 54 points and 289 rushing yards. In the other, the Bears lost because of a massively blown coverage with under a minute to play (after earlier allowing a TD when a LB didn't pick up a fumble sitting at his feet). Do you also think that Aaron Rodgers choked away the 2014 NFC Championship Game?

So one doesn't even have to go to the eye test - those who watched him for years saw repeatedly that he not only wasn't a winner but that he had an uncanny ability to make back-breaking, boneheaded plays - because the stats paint a picture of mediocrity.

Sure, Cutler made some bad plays down the stretch. On the contrary, he led the league in 4th quarter comeback wins in 2015 and he had 25 game-winning drives in his career. Goes against the "eye test" though, huh?

Cutler went 51-51 with the Bears. During that stretch, the Bears went 7-19 without him.

Now, if you're talking about the silly folks who say Cutler is "the worst QB ever," yeah, he was underrated and relatively productive. But most sensible observers merely say Cutler had a mediocre, 11-year NFL career. With a 68-71 record and a 208-146 TD-INT breakdown, I'd say "mediocre" describe him pretty well.

The "worst QB" crowd is the group to whom I'm referring. Cutler's career is the most statistically similar to guys like Ken O'Brien, Jon Kitna and Jake Plummer. Not exactly a who's who of NFL QBs, I know, but they were decent NFL QBs. Yet who is Cutler compared to most often? Jeff George, an all-time bust with a .371 career winning percentage.

Yes, Cutler was a very talented QB with mediocre results who got the reputation as being a terrible QB. That's exactly what I mean by saying he's an underrated underachiever.

[wadesworld]

This is exactly the type of stuff I'm talking about. In 2008, Denver lost 3 straight to end the season and finished 8-8, which is considered Cutler "choking" while conveniently ignoring the fact that Denver's D allowed 112 points in those 3 games. In 2013, the Bears lost their last 2 games to miss the playoffs. In one game, the D allowed 54 points and 289 rushing yards. In the other, the Bears lost because of a massively blown coverage with under a minute to play (after earlier allowing a TD when a LB didn't pick up a fumble sitting at his feet). Do you also think that Aaron Rodgers choked away the 2014 NFC Championship Game?

Sure, Cutler made some bad plays down the stretch. On the contrary, he led the league in 4th quarter comeback wins in 2015 and he had 25 game-winning drives in his career. Goes against the "eye test" though, huh?

Cutler went 51-51 with the Bears. During that stretch, the Bears went 7-19 without him.

The "worst QB" crowd is the group to whom I'm referring. Cutler's career is the most statistically similar to guys like Ken O'Brien, Jon Kitna and Jake Plummer. Not exactly a who's who of NFL QBs, I know, but they were decent NFL QBs. Yet who is Cutler compared to most often? Jeff George, an all-time bust with a .371 career winning percentage.

Yes, Cutler was a very talented QB with mediocre results who got the reputation as being a terrible QB. That's exactly what I mean by saying he's an underrated underachiever.

For someone who asked, "Isn't this the NBA thread?" over a page ago, you sure are going on about non-NBA topics here.

In those final 3 games of 2008, Jay had 2 touchdowns to 4 interceptions.  In their second last game, while sitting at 8-6, Cutler got the ball with 8 minutes left down by a touchdown and, in as typical fashion as they ever come for Jay, threw an INT with 5 minutes left at the Buffalo 15 yard line.  But, I guess that's not Jay choking. 

Congrats to Jay on leading the league in 4th quarter comebacks during a 6-10 season.  The Bears would've been better off having lost all those 4th quarter comeback games.  In that same season he threw an interception down by 4 at the Lions 35 with 2 minutes left in the game, threw a pick 6 in a game they lost in OT to the 49ers, and threw for an interception while down by 8 at the Packers 29 with 4 minutes left in the game.

And yes, Aaron Rodgers (and moreso Mike McCarthy) choked in the 2014 NFC Championship game.  19/34 for 178 yards, 1 TD, and 2 INT isn't going to get you many wins in the NFL.  Had Rodgers simply played "bad" the Packers are walking to the Super Bowl.  AND had Bostick simply blocked for Jordy on the onside kick coverage, etc.  An absurd amount of things had to go against the Packers in the last 5 minutes of that game.  But had Rodgers played better, and Mac called a better game, it never gets close to that point anyway.

[MU82]

For someone who asked, "Isn't this the NBA thread?" over a page ago, you sure are going on about non-NBA topics here.

In those final 3 games of 2008, Jay had 2 touchdowns to 4 interceptions.  In their second last game, while sitting at 8-7, Cutler got the ball with 8 minutes left down by a touchdown and, in as typical fashion as they ever come for Jay, threw an INT with 5 minutes left at the Buffalo 15 yard line.  But, I guess that's not Jay choking. 

Congrats to Jay on leading the league in 4th quarter comebacks during a 6-10 season.  The Bears would've been better off having lost all those 4th quarter comeback games.  In that same season he threw an interception down by 4 at the Lions 35 with 2 minutes left in the game, threw a pick 6 in a game they lost in OT to the 49ers, and threw for an interception while down by 8 at the Packers 29 with 4 minutes left in the game.

And yes, Aaron Rodgers (and moreso Mike McCarthy) choked in the 2014 NFC Championship game.  19/34 for 178 yards, 1 TD, and 2 INT isn't going to get you many wins in the NFL.  Had Rodgers simply played "bad" the Packers are walking to the Super Bowl.  AND had Bostick simply blocked for Jordy on the onside kick coverage, etc.  An absurd amount of things had to go against the Packers in the last 5 minutes of that game.  But had Rodgers played better, and Mac called a better game, it never gets close to that point anyway.

This.

Jay isn't the worst QB ever. He had a mediocre career, getting far too little out of what seemed to be a lot of talent. Merritt's comparison to the likes of Jake Plummer and Jon Kitna works for me.

[MerrittsMustache]

In those final 3 games of 2008, Jay had 2 touchdowns to 4 interceptions.  In their second last game, while sitting at 8-7, Cutler got the ball with 8 minutes left down by a touchdown and, in as typical fashion as they ever come for Jay, threw an INT with 5 minutes left at the Buffalo 15 yard line.  But, I guess that's not Jay choking. 

Congrats to Jay on leading the league in 4th quarter comebacks during a 6-10 season.  The Bears would've been better off having lost all those 4th quarter comeback games.  In that same season he threw an interception down by 4 at the Lions 35 with 2 minutes left in the game, threw a pick 6 in a game they lost in OT to the 49ers, and threw for an interception while down by 8 at the Packers 29 with 4 minutes left in the game.

You can do that with every QB.

In 2015, Rodgers threw 4 straight incompletions from the Bears' 8 while down 17-13. Game over. Taking over near midfield and down 7, Rodgers went 3-8 on a drive, including a pointless 1-yard pass with 15 seconds left (instead of taking a shot downfield and risking an INT). Game over.

In 2016, down 1 to Atlanta, Rodgers throws 3 straight incompletions. Game over. Down 3 to Minnesota and near midfield, Rodgers throws an INT. Game over.

Last season, Tom Brady couldn't punch it in from the 1 against Seattle. In 2015, he went 1-7 passing with an opportunity to tie a game at Philly and he failed on a 2-point conversion to tie the AFC title game in Denver.

Is it considered a "choke" every time a QB doesn't finish off a potential game-winning/tying drive?

[wadesworld]

You can do that with every QB.

In 2015, Rodgers threw 4 straight incompletions from the Bears' 8 while down 17-13. Game over. Taking over near midfield and down 7, Rodgers went 3-8 on a drive, including a pointless 1-yard pass with 15 seconds left (instead of taking a shot downfield and risking an INT). Game over.

In 2016, down 1 to Atlanta, Rodgers throws 3 straight incompletions. Game over. Down 3 to Minnesota and near midfield, Rodgers throws an INT. Game over.

Last season, Tom Brady couldn't punch it in from the 1 against Seattle. In 2015, he went 1-7 passing with an opportunity to tie a game at Philly and he failed on a 2-point conversion to tie the AFC title game in Denver.

Is it considered a "choke" every time a QB doesn't finish off a potential game-winning/tying drive?

So between 2 quarterbacks you found 1 INT in a late, close game situation over multiple years for each.  Compare that with Jay who I just found one in a 3 game sample size you brought up and 2 in a single season that you brought up.

Incompletions happen.  Turnover on downs late in games happen.  If there's a pattern of not being able to come through, there's an issue.  But throwing the ball to the other team in a late game situation in which you have an opportunity to tie or win the game?  That can't happen.  Of course it's more than likely going to once in a while.  But with Jay?  You were just waiting for it to happen.

[MerrittsMustache]

So between 2 quarterbacks you found 1 INT in a late, close game situation over multiple years for each.  Compare that with Jay who I just found one in a 3 game sample size you brought up and 2 in a single season that you brought up.

Incompletions happen.  Turnover on downs late in games happen.  If there's a pattern of not being able to come through, there's an issue.  But throwing the ball to the other team in a late game situation in which you have an opportunity to tie or win the game?  That can't happen.  Of course it's more than likely going to once in a while.  But with Jay?  You were just waiting for it to happen.

The Patriots don't lose very often so Brady's sample size of losses is pretty small. GB tends to go down hard when they lose (Losses of 19, 30, 14, 22 and 18 in the last couple years). Rodgers also threw an INT at Carolina when down 8 and 2 minutes to play. Point being, every QB has opportunities at game-winning drives that they fail to convert. By your rationale, it seems that if a QB takes the ball and chucks it out of bounds 4 times and loses, that's better than throwing an INT while trying to force a play downfield and losing.

I'll ask again. Is it considered a "choke" every time a QB doesn't finish off a potential game-winning/tying drive?

[wadesworld]

I'll ask again. Is it considered a "choke" every time a QB doesn't finish off a potential game-winning/tying drive?

By your rationale, it seems that if a QB takes the ball and chucks it out of bounds 4 times and loses, that's better than throwing an INT while trying to force a play downfield and losing.

No not every time.

Is it a choke every time a QB gets the ball with 5-8 minutes left in a 1 possession game and throws it to the other team?  ABSOLUTELY!  I'd certainly rather have a quarterback who on first through third down at least keeps the possession alive.

Anyways, I know you're upset that this conversation is taking place in the NBA thread so I'll concede on this one.  Jay Cutler is "a guy you can win with" (despite never really having done a whole lot of winning over an entire career and no longer having a job).  As a Packers fan, I can only hope that Mitchell Tribusky is just as good as Jay Cutler.

[MerrittsMustache]

No not every time.

Is it a choke every time a QB gets the ball with 5-8 minutes left in a 1 possession game and throws it to the other team?  ABSOLUTELY!  I'd certainly rather have a quarterback who on first through third down at least keeps the possession alive.

Anyways, I know you're upset that this conversation is taking place in the NBA thread so I'll concede on this one.  Jay Cutler is "a guy you can win with" (despite never really having done a whole lot of winning over an entire career and no longer having a job).  As a Packers fan, I can only hope that Mitchell Tribusky is just as good as Jay Cutler.

Thanks for conceding. As always, it's been a pleasure reading your obtuse posts!

Cheers!

[wadesworld]

Thanks for conceding. As always, it's been a pleasure reading your obtuse posts!

Cheers!

I'm crushed!

Do you always continue on a conversation that you complain about being in the wrong place?  And read things that you consider obtuse?  If so, you must have more time on your hands than most.  Congrats on that.

[Pakuni]

Is it a choke every time a QB gets the ball with 5-8 minutes left in a 1 possession game and throws it to the other team?  ABSOLUTELY! 

I say this as someone who thought the Cutler deal was a bad one for the Bears from day one, but you do realize that not every INT is the QB's fault, right?

[Silkk the Shaka]

Does Dennis Smith Jr. remind anyone else of a young D-Wade attacking the rim with a lethal combination of power & creativity?