NBA '17

[wadesworld]

ESPN paying me for some fire boys.

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

This discussion isn't black and white and almost impossible to quantify using stats without watching the games as an expert. You can argue that the Rocket's supporting cast is better, but how much of that is made better by a player who is adeptly running an efficient offense (top ten all time) vs "talent". At the same point, at what point does Westbrook's efficiency suffer (rate of scoring off passes etc) because his teammates can't hit shots. You can massage and selectively use statistics to further your points all day but at the end of the day, ain't no thing without that ring; which neither team will probably even sniff this year.

FWIW, Wades I agree that if I am trying to build an efficient and successful offensive team, I would take Harden over Westbrook based on my belief that one could coexist with another star and one cannot (Durant). However I am not a GM and have a half inch vertical so what do I know.

People are taking a LOT of valid arguments on either side of the debate out of context in this thread...

[reinko]

This discussion isn't black and white and almost impossible to quantify using stats without watching the games as an expert. You can argue that the Rocket's supporting cast is better, but how much of that is made better by a player who is adeptly running an efficient offense (top ten all time) vs "talent". At the same point, at what point does Westbrook's efficiency suffer (rate of scoring off passes etc) because his teammates can't hit shots. You can massage and selectively use statistics to further your points all day but at the end of the day, ain't no thing without that ring; which neither team will probably even sniff this year.

FWIW, Wades I agree that if I am trying to build an efficient and successful offensive team, I would take Harden over Westbrook based on my belief that one could coexist with another star and one cannot (Durant). However I am not a GM and have a half inch vertical so what do I know.

People are taking a LOT of valid arguments on either side of the debate out of context in this thread...

Wades is arguing that he would take Delly over Russ.  Literally one of the worst takes on this board, ever.

[Jockey]

This discussion isn't black and white and almost impossible to quantify using stats without watching the games as an expert. You can argue that the Rocket's supporting cast is better, but how much of that is made better by a player who is adeptly running an efficient offense (top ten all time) vs "talent". At the same point, at what point does Westbrook's efficiency suffer (rate of scoring off passes etc) because his teammates can't hit shots. You can massage and selectively use statistics to further your points all day but at the end of the day, ain't no thing without that ring; which neither team will probably even sniff this year.

Couldn't agree more. The stats are nice but they don't tell the whole story. They are telling you what you already saw with your eyes.

I can watch Clayton Kershaw pitch 3 times and KNOW he is the best pitcher in the game. The advanced stats just tell me what I know. He is not great because the stats say he is great - in fact, it is the opposite. The stats just reflect who he is. Plus, they are an average - not a prediction of what he will do in any single game.

[wadesworld]

Imagine how good Thon is going to be when he finally hits puberty.

[MU82]

That's fine.  I don't mind being alone in having the opinion that taking 18 shots over the last 8 minutes and 33 seconds of a basketball game, plus 3 shots that resulted in fouls, is way, way, way too much hero ball.  Russell Westbrook took 18 shots and 6 free throws in the last 8:33 while the rest of the entire Thunder team took 5 shots and 0 free throws in the last 8:33.  If thinking Russell Westbrook was hurting his team down the stretch is a hot take I'm all for being the king of hot takes.

wades, if you actually saw the game, you know it's not as cut-and-dried as you make it sound.

I know you're smarter than that, just as I know your Delly line was a joke. (Even made me chuckle.)

By the time there was about 6 mins left, and the Rockets had stolen all momentum and the lead, Westbrook had given up on his incompetent teammates and realized that if there was going to be any chance at all, he had to do it himself. He was a very willing passer the first 3-4 minutes of the quarter but his teammates failed over and over again. Hell, he was a very willing passer the first three quarters, when he had 13 assists.

[MU82]

On a related note, isn't it about that time for somebody to chime in about how overrated LeBron is?

He probably will go down in history as the second-best player ever, although some will laughably insist that Bird was better.

[wadesworld]

wades, if you actually saw the game, you know it's not as cut-and-dried as you make it sound.

I know you're smarter than that, just as I know your Delly line was a joke. (Even made me chuckle.)

By the time there was about 6 mins left, and the Rockets had stolen all momentum and the lead, Westbrook had given up on his incompetent teammates and realized that if there was going to be any chance at all, he had to do it himself. He was a very willing passer the first 3-4 minutes of the quarter but his teammates failed over and over again. Hell, he was a very willing passer the first three quarters, when he had 13 assists.

I just don't agree with you here.  The Thunder were tied with 3 minutes to go in the game.  He did give up on his teammates, but that's the problem.  He shouldn't have.  18 shots and 6 free throws himself compared to 5 shots and 0 free throws from the entire rest of the team over the last 8:33 when the Thunder went from up 1 to losing by 4.  I don't care how much better of a basketball player Russell Westbrook is than their 2nd-5th best players are, that's not going to win you basketball games.  I'll take my chances with the ball moving around the court and finding the open man over Russell Westbrook trying to jump backwards while chucking the ball at the backboard from 27 feet away from the hoop.  He's going to make that shot 0% of the time.  At least if Oladipo shoots an average 3 pointer it's got a chance, or Kanter or Adams or Sabonis get a straight post there's a chance they make the shot.  The shots he took had absolutely no chance of going in.  That's not on his teammates.

[MU82]

I just don't agree with you here.  The Thunder were tied with 3 minutes to go in the game.  He did give up on his teammates, but that's the problem.  He shouldn't have.  18 shots and 6 free throws himself compared to 5 shots and 0 free throws from the entire rest of the team over the last 8:33 when the Thunder went from up 1 to losing by 4.  I don't care how much better of a basketball player Russell Westbrook is than their 2nd-5th best players are, that's not going to win you basketball games.  I'll take my chances with the ball moving around the court and finding the open man over Russell Westbrook trying to jump backwards while chucking the ball at the backboard from 27 feet away from the hoop.  He's going to make that shot 0% of the time.  At least if Oladipo shoots an average 3 pointer it's got a chance, or Kanter or Adams or Sabonis get a straight post there's a chance they make the shot.  The shots he took had absolutely no chance of going in.  That's not on his teammates.

Yes, Westbrook took a few shots that, as you said, "had absolutely no chance of going in." But he also had several open 3s that just didn't go down. Given that he shoots 3s at only a 2% lower pct than Oladipo, who hasn't been able to hit the broadside of a barn lately, I'd take my chances with Westbrook. At least he isn't a scared puppy out there.

Had his teammates looked even the least bit capable in the first 4-5 minutes of the fourth quarter, I'd be agreeing with you. But they were awful and Westbrook felt he had to take over.

It's OK if we disagree sometimes; we agree on most.

[GGGG]

He probably will go down in history as the second-best player ever, although some will laughably insist that Bird was better.

I wasn't going to go there this year.  I'm pretty sure last year's Finals performance put that dog to sleep.

[MerrittsMustache]

Yes, Westbrook took a few shots that, as you said, "had absolutely no chance of going in." But he also had several open 3s that just didn't go down. Given that he shoots 3s at only a 2% lower pct than Oladipo, who hasn't been able to hit the broadside of a barn lately, I'd take my chances with Westbrook. At least he isn't a scared puppy out there.

Had his teammates looked even the least bit capable in the first 4-5 minutes of the fourth quarter, I'd be agreeing with you. But they were awful and Westbrook felt he had to take over.

It's OK if we disagree sometimes; we agree on most.

Not truly understanding how to take over is the issue. To a lot of players "taking over" means taking all the shots and scoring a bunch of points. It's the inverse to a star "getting teammates involved" simply by not shooting. It doesn't necessarily work that way. Some of the biggest, most memorable plays in Jordan's career were assists (Paxson vs LA, Wennington vs NY, Kerr vs Utah, etc). Chris Paul can take over a game both by scoring and by creating shots for others. Steve Nash could control a game without even taking a shot. LeBron has the ability to take over a game on both ends of the court. Playing out of control and forcing up wild shots because you don't trust your teammates is not taking over and it's not going to get it done, especially in the playoffs.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

I said it at the time of the Harden trade, OKC moved the wrong guy. Westbrook is an inefficient volume shooter who didn't pass to Durant nearly enough, especially in the 2012 Finals. 

Plus, Westbrook had a higher trade value than Harden at the time.  I wondered if they could have made a blockbuster deal for another PG. Westbrook for Paul would have been ideal for the Thunder. But instead they went into the dustbin of dynasties that never were.

[wadesworld]

I said it at the time of the Harden trade, OKC moved the wrong guy. Westbrook is an inefficient volume shooter who didn't pass to Durant nearly enough, especially in the 2012 Finals. 

Plus, Westbrook had a higher trade value than Harden at the time.  I wondered if they could have made a blockbuster deal for another PG. Westbrook for Paul would have been ideal for the Thunder. But instead they went into the dustbin of dynasties that never were.

I've always said Rondo with Durant and Harden would've been pretty incredible to watch.

[MU82]

Not truly understanding how to take over is the issue. To a lot of players "taking over" means taking all the shots and scoring a bunch of points. It's the inverse to a star "getting teammates involved" simply by not shooting. It doesn't necessarily work that way. Some of the biggest, most memorable plays in Jordan's career were assists (Paxson vs LA, Wennington vs NY, Kerr vs Utah, etc). Chris Paul can take over a game both by scoring and by creating shots for others. Steve Nash could control a game without even taking a shot. LeBron has the ability to take over a game on both ends of the court. Playing out of control and forcing up wild shots because you don't trust your teammates is not taking over and it's not going to get it done, especially in the playoffs.

We agree in principle. I actually have made that argument many times when people got on LeBron for passing in game-ending situations or when Derrick Rose tried to do it himself instead of passing to capable, open teammates.

If Westbrook had even one teammate he could have counted on - one Paxson or Kerr or Ray Allen or Stoudemire - I'd be all over him for not passing more down the stretch and we'd agree in totality.

But again, Westbrook set up Oladipo, Singler, McDermott, Sabonis and Roberson ... and none of them could score. Would a better "leader" have kept going to them? Perhaps. But in my mind, it's hard to blame Westbrook for thinking he had to do it himself.

I guess we'll never know what would have happened had Westbrook stopped shooting. He didn't, and they lost, so it's easier to make the argument you're making. I acknowledge that.

If anybody who watched that game - not to mention many other Thunder and Rockets games this season - didn't conclude that Harden has more capable options than Westbrook does, I don't know what to say.

[GGGG]

I said it at the time of the Harden trade, OKC moved the wrong guy. Westbrook is an inefficient volume shooter who didn't pass to Durant nearly enough, especially in the 2012 Finals. 

Plus, Westbrook had a higher trade value than Harden at the time.  I wondered if they could have made a blockbuster deal for another PG. Westbrook for Paul would have been ideal for the Thunder. But instead they went into the dustbin of dynasties that never were.

They shouldn't have moved either one of them.

[4everwarriors]

Bumstead at da United Center gettin' sprinkled wit fairy dust by da dudes who paved his driveway, hey?

[DegenerateDish]

Lack of Rondo completely changed this series. I don't think it's a coincidence Butler has had a terrible game, Rondo was getting him great looks in games 1 & 2. MCW is garbage, especially defensively.

[wadesworld]

Weird things happen when more than one person is allowed to touch the ball. Thunder up 9 after one with Westbrook on pace for 20 shots. No chance they'll win if he ends up shooting over 30 shots, let alone FOURTY THREE (sorry, I'm still trying to wrap my head around how that's even possible).

[MU82]

Anybody can say what they want about Westbrook, Harden, the Thunder's talent, the Rockets' talent, etc.

When Harden has gone to the bench, the Rockets actually have been able to increase leads or make up deficits. I don't think that says anything about Harden's value, because we all know he is damn valuable.

When Donovan has tried to get Westbrook a few minutes of rest, the Thunder is an aggregate -40 with him on the bench. They simply are not a very good team, and they especially are not a very good shooting team. Westbrook had an amazing regular season - one of the all-time best. He is doing most things well in this series, too, but yes, he is shooting too much and forcing things in the fourth quarter. As Jordan did before the Bulls had much around him. As LeBron did his first go-around with the Cavs. As Kobe did when there wasn't much talent surrounding him. As Iverson did. Etc. As a fan, I wish Westbrook wouldn't do it, but it's human nature for the guy who is BY FAR the best player on his team to think he has to make the big plays.

[MU82]

Here's the final tally of the last 4 games of the OKC-HOU series.

Game ------------------ RW on flr ----------------- RW sit
2 ------------------------ +11 ---------------------- (-15)
3 ------------------------ +3 -----------------------  (-1)
4 ------------------------ +14 ---------------------- (-18)
5 ------------------------ +10 ---------------------- (-16)

It's easy to see why Westbrook thinks he has to be a one-man show.

That being said, when Westbrook came back into the game last night, he penetrated to set up Grant for a dunk, penetrated to set himself up for 2FTs and penetrated to set up Grant for another dunk. Then, curiously, he started firing up long jumpers.

I think part of it was because he was getting tired. But I also thinks he does take a lot of ill-advised shots.

All in all, I'd take him on my team.  Put 3 or 4 or 5 shooters around him and he will do plenty of passing and winning. I mean he did average 10+ assists this season!

[wadesworld]

https://twitter.com/_MarcusD2_/status/858169519109550081

Brad Stevens is a class act.  Trying to figure out what the fans are chanting and asking his assistants if they're really chanting, "Fire Hoiberg."  Then you see him say, "Shut up" at the very end.

Bunch of meathead FIBs.  Getting that roster to the Playoffs is a minor miracle in and of itself.  Butler is obviously good.  Otherwise?  Wade, Rondo, Lopez, Mirotic, Portis, MCW, Cannon, Valentine, Grant?  That's a pretty awful roster, and then you lose Rondo to an injury (think the C's still would've won the series, but probably in 7).

[🏀]

https://twitter.com/_MarcusD2_/status/858169519109550081

Brad Stevens is a class act.  Trying to figure out what the fans are chanting and asking his assistants if they're really chanting, "Fire Hoiberg."  Then you see him say, "Shut up" at the very end.

Bunch of meathead FIBs.  Getting that roster to the Playoffs is a minor miracle in and of itself.  Butler is obviously good.  Otherwise?  Wade, Rondo, Lopez, Mirotic, Portis, MCW, Cannon, Valentine, Grant?  That's a pretty awful roster, and then you lose Rondo to an injury (think the C's still would've won the series, but probably in 7).

While chanting is stupid, Hoiberg isn't a NBA coach, yet. This goes back beyond the playoffs.

[wadesworld]

While chanting is stupid, Hoiberg isn't a NBA coach, yet. This goes back beyond the playoffs.

He wasn't great but what could he really have gotten out of this team? It's a group of aging, injury prone guys that don't fit the style of play he has coached.

[MUfan12]

Doesn't help when your max player can't adjust to a new coach, either.

I love Jimmy, but he never gave Hoiberg a shot.

[🏀]

He wasn't great but what could he really have gotten out of this team? It's a group of aging, injury prone guys that don't fit the style of play he has coached.

Not disagreeing, but the team has been running this team for the majority of the season.

Fred also thought he was coming into a rebuild, not an aging veteran patch job.