NBA '17

[MU82]

Interesting that just about every player that was traded to or from the Cavs in all their trades over the last 12 months was better away from the Cavs, with the exception of maybe Larry Nance Jr. whose production was pretty much the same.

Clarkson, Hill, Hood, Crowder, IT, Wade, and even Kyrie were better away from Cleveland than they were in Cleveland.

Yes ... interesting. Clearly, LeBron makes his teammates worse.

Scottie had by far his best season when Michael was playing baseball. By far. Obviously, Michael was holding him down for the rest of his career.

[wadesworld]

Yes ... interesting. Clearly, LeBron makes his teammates worse.

Scottie had by far his best season when Michael was playing baseball. By far. Obviously, Michael was holding him down for the rest of his career.

Glad you found one example in MJ's entire career across a number of seasons.

Compare that to 6 guys all within the same season.

Also cute that LBJ comes out to the final post season presser with a cast on his hand. Convenient.

[tower912]

Now you are accusing him of faking a broken hand?   Wow.   That isn't healthy.

[GGGG]

Accumulation stats go down cause usage goes down. Jae's PER was about the same in Cleveland and Utah and his EFG actually decreased. Not really surprising.

[wadesworld]

Now you are accusing him of faking a broken hand?   Wow.   That isn't healthy.

Who said anything was fake?

[tower912]

If you aren't accusing, what is the criticism?  He played three games with a broken hand.  Now he is getting it treated.

[forgetful]

Now you are accusing him of faking a broken hand?   Wow.   That isn't healthy.

Except he didn't break his hand.  He said he broke his hand, requiring 2 MRI's.  You don't use MRI's to diagnose a broken bone. 

Reports are out that he didn't suffer a broken hand, but may have had a bone bruise...which doesn't necessitate a cast. 

So the official reports is actually no broken hand.

Also, Lebron has history in "faking injuries," see 2010 and a phantom shoulder injury.

[wadesworld]

https://youtu.be/-oIm7mUcEQA

Looks like these handshakes with the broken hand with his sons took its toll on him if he so desperately needed treatment that it went from not needing that kind of protection between games but needing it the second he went into 4 months of down time.

[StillAWarrior]

https://youtu.be/-oIm7mUcEQA

Looks like these handshakes with the broken hand with his sons took its toll on him if he so desperately needed treatment that it went from not needing that kind of protection between games but needing it the second he went into 4 months of down time.

Speaking as a fan of both MJ and LBJ, I think that this situation is one of the most effective ways to illustrate the biggest difference between them.  MJ was so supremely sure of himself and had such a huge ego that people have said for years that he is an insufferable jerk.  LBJ, on the other hand, is so self conscious and concerned about what people think that he does stuff like this.

You have what I think are the two best basketball players I have ever seen.  Both extraordinarily talented.  Both flawed.  And it's interesting, that their flaws are essentially mirror images.  And, I'll note that MJ's flaw is much more acceptable in a sports hero, and is also probably why he's No. 1 and LBJ is No. 2.  MJ's ego drove him and made him even better.  LBJ's insecurity holds him back at times.

[MU82]

Speaking as a fan of both MJ and LBJ, I think that this situation is one of the most effective ways to illustrate the biggest difference between them.  MJ was so supremely sure of himself and had such a huge ego that people have said for years that he is an insufferable jerk.  LBJ, on the other hand, is so self conscious and concerned about what people think that he does stuff like this.

You have what I think are the two best basketball players I have ever seen.  Both extraordinarily talented.  Both flawed.  And it's interesting, that their flaws are essentially mirror images.  And, I'll note that MJ's flaw is much more acceptable in a sports hero, and is also probably why he's No. 1 and LBJ is No. 2.  MJ's ego drove him and made him even better.  LBJ's insecurity holds him back at times.

Thumbs up to this comment. Great insight IMHO.

[GGGG]

Also cute that LBJ comes out to the final post season presser with a cast on his hand. Convenient.

OTOH, it was the best supporting cast he had all series.

[wadesworld]

OTOH, it was the best supporting cast he had all series.

Touche.  Other than Love, who had a nice series.

Speaking as a fan of both MJ and LBJ, I think that this situation is one of the most effective ways to illustrate the biggest difference between them.  MJ was so supremely sure of himself and had such a huge ego that people have said for years that he is an insufferable jerk.  LBJ, on the other hand, is so self conscious and concerned about what people think that he does stuff like this.

You have what I think are the two best basketball players I have ever seen.  Both extraordinarily talented.  Both flawed.  And it's interesting, that their flaws are essentially mirror images.  And, I'll note that MJ's flaw is much more acceptable in a sports hero, and is also probably why he's No. 1 and LBJ is No. 2.  MJ's ego drove him and made him even better.  LBJ's insecurity holds him back at times.

Agreed.  But what I don't get is that why doesn't LBJ just "quietly" feed this to his personal ESPN PR guy in Windhorst and let the narrative blow up that he's this tough guy who played through this significant injury and gave it everything he could?  It's that simple.  You literally have a guy moving his entire life to follow one man's career.  You've used it to your advantage your entire career.  LBJ himself (of course it would be someone else) could have texted Windhorst and dropped this story right on his plate, told him how to shape the story, and it would've been done.  You could've even had some "random fan" posting pictures of LBJ in a cast the next day at some restaurant that he "just happened to walk into."

Showing up to a press conference minutes after your game with 4 months to recover in a cast?  Come on dude.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Now there are reports that the Warriors knew Lebron hurt his hand.

[jesmu84]

Wasn't the guy on the court doing pushups before a game?

[StillAWarrior]

I honestly hadn't paid too much attention to the story about LBJ's hand, other than to tell my daughter "no he didn't" after she breathlessly told me that LBJ played with a broken hand.  As I've mentioned many times, I think LBJ is a bit of a drama queen and he just seems to do this kind of crap.

However, this thread made me curious.

First a question:  not that it really matters, but was that actually a cast in the post-game presser?  Or was it black pre-wrap?  Looks like pre-wrap to me, but everyone is calling it a cast so I may be wrong.  But, the point being made by Wades (and lots of others) remains:  what's the point of going all drama queen during the post-game presser?

Next, an interesting photographic analysis of Lebron's hand during the series.  Obviously, can't speak to the seriousness of the injury, but it does look like there was, in fact, an injury. 

[wadesworld]

I honestly hadn't paid too much attention to the story about LBJ's hand, other than to tell my daughter "no he didn't" after she breathlessly told me that LBJ played with a broken hand.  As I've mentioned many times, I think LBJ is a bit of a drama queen and he just seems to do this kind of crap.

However, this thread made me curious.

First a question:  not that it really matters, but was that actually a cast in the post-game presser?  Or was it black pre-wrap?  Looks like pre-wrap to me, but everyone is calling it a cast so I may be wrong.  But, the point being made by Wades (and lots of others) remains:  what's the point of going all drama queen during the post-game presser?

Next, an interesting photographic analysis of Lebron's hand during the series.  Obviously, can't speak to the seriousness of the injury, but it does look like there was, in fact, an injury.

That was my first thought as well, that it looked like pre-wrap.  People seem to be calling it a "soft cast."  I'm not sure what that is really.  Looks to me like something you'd see just taping an ankle before a game.

His hand was without a doubt swollen.  I think anybody who's played basketball has probably jammed a finger and/or hand, and most of the time you can play through that but when there is pressure put on it in a certain way it can certainly bother you.  I'm sure throughout the series there were catches of passes or rebounds, etc. that probably made LBJ cringe.  I just don't understand why he handles those things the way he does.

[JWags85]

His hand was without a doubt swollen.  I think anybody who's played basketball has probably jammed a finger and/or hand, and most of the time you can play through that but when there is pressure put on it in a certain way it can certainly bother you.  I'm sure throughout the series there were catches of passes or rebounds, etc. that probably made LBJ cringe. I just don't understand why he handles those things the way he does.

Cause he is OBSESSIVE about his image and his legacy.  Kobe and MJ were too, at least the legacy portion, but that made them ruthless competitors, with a sociopathic streak.  Lebron cares about his image and perception far more so he continually needs to separate and caveat himself from bad play and bad results, but also still seem like "the good guy".  The problem is it doesnt really work and makes him come off like this.  I really think he and Maverick Carter discuss every narrative and how it could be perceived. 

He and Durant are just both fascinating looks at "insecure" superstars.

[MU82]

LeBron's psyche is closer to that of a star NFL receiver or to A-Rod than to what MJ was.

He says and does some goofy stuff, but he also has been extremely charitable, especially in the Cleveland area. He is socially conscious, which some don't like but I think is a good thing. And he's a hell of a basketball player, obviously.

But I think folks here are spot-on talking about his need to feel loved.

[StillAWarrior]

Cause he is OBSESSIVE about his image and his legacy.  Kobe and MJ were too, at least the legacy portion, but that made them ruthless competitors, with a sociopathic streak.  Lebron cares about his image and perception far more so he continually needs to separate and caveat himself from bad play and bad results, but also still seem like "the good guy".  The problem is it doesnt really work and makes him come off like this.  I really think he and Maverick Carter discuss every narrative and how it could be perceived. 

He and Durant are just both fascinating looks at "insecure" superstars.

Yeah...I think that pretty much nails it.

[MerrittsMustache]

Cause he is OBSESSIVE about his image and his legacy.  Kobe and MJ were too, at least the legacy portion, but that made them ruthless competitors, with a sociopathic streak.  Lebron cares about his image and perception far more so he continually needs to separate and caveat himself from bad play and bad results, but also still seem like "the good guy".  The problem is it doesnt really work and makes him come off like this.  I really think he and Maverick Carter discuss every narrative and how it could be perceived. 

He and Durant are just both fascinating looks at "insecure" superstars.

Well stated.

LeBron wants to be the superstar and the leader but he also wants to be one of the guys. MJ and Kobe weren't afraid to ruffle some feathers or get on a guy if it needed to be done. LeBron doesn't seem to want to be that guy. He'll occasionally take some veiled, passive aggressive shots at guys via twitter but that's about it. There aren't any crazy, behind-the-scenes stories about LeBron's obsession with winning and driving teammates to the brink like there are about some other greats.

I also think that he and Maverick attempt to control of every narrative and it often hurts their cause, such as this example and most notably The Decision. As others have mentioned, this story could have been easily leaked with LeBron saying nothing about it and not even acknowledging it publicly. Instead, it was handled in a bizarre fashion that managed to take a guy who played 3 phenomenal games with an injured (and possibly broken) hand and made him look like an attention-seeking diva.


Lost in the shuffle of discussing LeBron's "weak supporting casts" is the notion that LeBron has never played for a great coach. Mike Brown is decent. Spoelstra won 2 titles and is a good coach. Lue won a ring and has been to multiple Finals but none of those guys are anywhere near the category of Jackson or Pop or Riley or Daly or even Steve Kerr. It'd be interesting to see LBJ sign in San Antonio and see what Pop could get out of him and the team for the next few seasons.

[Galway Eagle]

Well stated.

LeBron wants to be the superstar and the leader but he also wants to be one of the guys. MJ and Kobe weren't afraid to ruffle some feathers or get on a guy if it needed to be done. LeBron doesn't seem to want to be that guy. He'll occasionally take some veiled, passive aggressive shots at guys via twitter but that's about it. There aren't any crazy, behind-the-scenes stories about LeBron's obsession with winning and driving teammates to the brink like there are about some other greats.

I also think that he and Maverick attempt to control of every narrative and it often hurts their cause, such as this example and most notably The Decision. As others have mentioned, this story could have been easily leaked with LeBron saying nothing about it and not even acknowledging it publicly. Instead, it was handled in a bizarre fashion that managed to take a guy who played 3 phenomenal games with an injured (and possibly broken) hand and made him look like an attention-seeking diva.


Lost in the shuffle of discussing LeBron's "weak supporting casts" is the notion that LeBron has never played for a great coach. Mike Brown is decent. Spoelstra won 2 titles and is a good coach. Lue won a ring and has been to multiple Finals but none of those guys are anywhere near the category of Jackson or Pop or Riley or Daly or even Steve Kerr. It'd be interesting to see LBJ sign in San Antonio and see what Pop could get out of him and the team for the next few seasons.

David Blatt is a phenomenal coach his euro legacy proves that

[MerrittsMustache]

David Blatt is a phenomenal coach his euro legacy proves that

If he was truly that phenomenal, he'd be coaching in the NBA right now.

[wadesworld]

If he was truly that phenomenal, he'd be coaching in the NBA right now.

Yup. Blatt sucked. But Spoe is very, very good. LBJ just didn't get to call every shot in the organization like he did in Cleveland so he didn't like Spoe and the FO.

[Galway Eagle]

If he was truly that phenomenal, he'd be coaching in the NBA right now.

EuroLeague champion (2014)
EuroLeague Coach of the Year (2014)
NBA Eastern Conference Finals Champion (2015)
NBA Championship (2016)[1]
EuroCup champion (2018)
FIBA EuroChallenge champion (2005)
Italian League champion (2006)
Italian Cup winner (2007)
Adriatic League champion (2012)
Russian Super League Coach of the Year (2005)
5× Israeli Super League champion (2002, 2003, 2011, 2012, 2014)
6× Israeli Cup winner (2002, 2003, 2011–2014)
4× Israeli Super League Coach of the Year (1996, 2002, 2011, 2014)
Russian Federation Order of Friendship award recipient (2014)

Simple cut and paste job, but do you really think he had the Lebron, Kyrie and Love combo equivalent for each of those leagues respective championships?

[MerrittsMustache]

EuroLeague champion (2014)
EuroLeague Coach of the Year (2014)
NBA Eastern Conference Finals Champion (2015)
NBA Championship (2016)[1]
EuroCup champion (2018)
FIBA EuroChallenge champion (2005)
Italian League champion (2006)
Italian Cup winner (2007)
Adriatic League champion (2012)
Russian Super League Coach of the Year (2005)
5× Israeli Super League champion (2002, 2003, 2011, 2012, 2014)
6× Israeli Cup winner (2002, 2003, 2011–2014)
4× Israeli Super League Coach of the Year (1996, 2002, 2011, 2014)
Russian Federation Order of Friendship award recipient (2014)

Simple cut and paste job, but do you really think he had the Lebron, Kyrie and Love combo equivalent for each of those leagues respective championships?

That's a highly impressive overseas resume. It's not the same as coaching sports here in the states though.

Marc Trestman has won 3 Championships in the CFL. Do you think he's a great football coach?