NBA '17

[MU82]

It is often repeated "if LeBron's teammates didn't suck, he'd have 6 championships by now too." (I'm not saying you say this)

Well, Wade played as well as possible. Almost equaled his 2006 finals performance. But LeBron was so bad that it didn't matter. He got all the superstar "help" anyone could possibly want, and he didn't win. Why ignore that? It's not just a given that he'll win a championship if you stick a few all-stars (one of whom is a top 25 all-time great playing at peak performance) on his team.

Not to pick nits but Curry has never won finals MVP (and likely will not this year either)

Agree on Wade. Oops on Curry.

[Its DJOver]

Not to pick nits but Curry has never won finals MVP (and likely will not this year either)

I think he could get it this year.  Yes he had a terrible game three, but he was the best player on the Warriors in games one and two (including setting a new record for most 3's made in a finals game).  KD could still get it if he has another monster game tonight and Curry disappoints, but through 3 games I'd probably give it to Curry.

[MerrittsMustache]

Agree on Wade. Oops on Curry.

NBA Finals MVP is a bit strange. Curry has never won one but Andre Iguodala has! Kobe only won it twice and one of those easily could have gone to Pau Gasol.

Additionally, it's actually crazy to think that Kobe won 5 rings and likely wasn't the most valuable player on any of those teams during the regular season. Don't get me wrong, the Lakers don't have those 5 titles without Kobe and he's the #2 SG of all time, but if you look at the PER, Win Shares and VORP numbers for those seasons, Shaq and Gasol had better/more "valuable" seasons.

[MU82]

NBA Finals MVP is a bit strange. Curry has never won one but Andre Iguodala has! Kobe only won it twice and one of those easily could have gone to Pau Gasol.

Additionally, it's actually crazy to think that Kobe won 5 rings and likely wasn't the most valuable player on any of those teams during the regular season. Don't get me wrong, the Lakers don't have those 5 titles without Kobe and he's the #2 SG of all time, but if you look at the PER, Win Shares and VORP numbers for those seasons, Shaq and Gasol had better/more "valuable" seasons.

The way a lot of analysts went on and on about Iguodala's absence, one might have thought he was league MVP the last dozen seasons. Don't get me wrong; nice player. But the more games he missed, the better he got!

Kobe was a very valuable player, obviously, and took a lot of huge shots. But those Laker teams also got some enormous shots from the likes of Horry and Fisher. That happens - think of all the big shots Ray Allen hit for a Heat team that had LeBron and Wade; also  the winning shots by Paxson and Kerr that were mentioned earlier in this thread.

Shaq almost never had the ball at crunch time. The Lakers were afraid he'd get fouled.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Just a silly statement.  Aside from ignoring the fact that the Cavs were down 0-3 at this point last year even with Kyrie, it's just impossible to say.  I like Kyrie.  A lot.  I think that with a happy Kyrie on the team, the Cavs would be better.  But it's hard to say how an unhappy Kyrie would have affected the season.  And it's also hard to know if he would have made good on his threat to have knee surgery and miss the season.  If that had happened, there would be no Hill, Nance or Hood along with no Kyrie. 

Kyrie wanted out of Cleveland really, really badly for reasons that I'm sure a few people on this board will be eager to explain...in great detail.  And anyone who wants to make predictions about how the Cavs would be doing right now with him on the team is just guessing.

I think what's important is this statement is coming from a Cavs' player., no matter if the assertion is silly or not. Why is it that his teammates either consistently want out or Lebron wants them out? The mid-year roster was in shambles. This seems to point to his lack of leadership and teamwork as a fatal flaw, and it is has been seen consistently. 

[MerrittsMustache]

I think he could get it this year.  Yes he had a terrible game three, but he was the best player on the Warriors in games one and two (including setting a new record for most 3's made in a finals game).  KD could still get it if he has another monster game tonight and Curry disappoints, but through 3 games I'd probably give it to Curry.

KD is putting up 31-10-7 on 56% shooting. He'd have to be beyond awful and Curry would have to put up a HUUUGE Game 4 for KD to not win the Finals MVP.

[Its DJOver]

KD is putting up 31-10-7 on 56% shooting. He'd have to be beyond awful and Curry would have to put up a HUUUGE Game 4 for KD to not win the Finals MVP.

As you yourself point out, the best player doesn't always win Finals MVP.  16 points, 4 assists and 5 boards doesn't scream MVP, yet that's what AI put up to win it.  I certainly wouldn't complain if KD won it, but I think the two are closer than you presume.

[MU82]

As you yourself point out, the best player doesn't always win Finals MVP.  16 points, 4 assists and 5 boards doesn't scream MVP, yet that's what AI put up to win it.  I certainly wouldn't complain if KD won it, but I think the two are closer than you presume.

I don't think either of them will be MVP after J.R. Smith leads the Cavs back to an historic series victory!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I think the dawn of super teams (which, to be fair, he contributed to) leads us to look back on his past teams and say "wow, that's a pile of garbage". But he certainly did not have superstars next to him, unless you count the remnants of Shaq. Players like Ilgauskas were very good players on decent enough teams. This Cavs team is probably better than those teams. Times have changed, though, and Lebron is absolutely carrying the Cavs. Warriors are just that good.

I think this makes sense. I would argue that every team that has made the finals since 2012 had at least 3 players on it that you could point to as 3 of the best in the league at the time...except this year's Cleveland team. It's not that Cleveland has a bad team....but we've become so used to superstar trios being in the Finals that it seems like crap compared to recent title contenders.

[MerrittsMustache]

As you yourself point out, the best player doesn't always win Finals MVP.  16 points, 4 assists and 5 boards doesn't scream MVP, yet that's what AI put up to win it.  I certainly wouldn't complain if KD won it, but I think the two are closer than you presume.

You may be right but I really don't think it's all that close at this point, especially considering Curry is shooting so poorly. That said, I could also see voters deciding that it's Curry's "turn" to win it and voting for him.

Iggy was the team's second-leading scorer and rebounder and LBJ shot 38% with him on the floor. No one would have argued if Curry had won that MVP but Iggy was great all-around and his defense on the best player in the world won him that award more than his stats.

[forgetful]

I think this makes sense. I would argue that every team that has made the finals since 2012 had at least 3 players on it that you could point to as 3 of the best in the league at the time...except this year's Cleveland team. It's not that Cleveland has a bad team....but we've become so used to superstar trios being in the Finals that it seems like crap compared to recent title contenders.

I agree with this also.  The thing with the East this year though is, which team has 3 of the best in the league? 

Boston could have, if it wouldn't have been for injuries to Kyrie and Hayward (if you count Horford as the third).  But really no-one in the East matches that description this year. 

[Its DJOver]

You may be right but I really don't think it's all that close at this point, especially considering Curry is shooting so poorly. That said, I could also see voters deciding that it's Curry's "turn" to win it and voting for him.

Iggy was the team's second-leading scorer and rebounder and LBJ shot 38% with him on the floor. No one would have argued if Curry had won that MVP but Iggy was great all-around and his defense on the best player in the world won him that award more than his stats.

I gotta disagree, especially when you break it down game by game.  Game 1, Curry scores more and shoots a higher percentage, KD goes 1-7 from 3, advantage Curry.  Game 2, Curry scores more, KD shoots a higher percentage, but Curry breaks the record for most 3's in a finals game, if you attempt 17 3s you're almost always going to have a lower shooting percentage than someone who only attempts 3, advantage Curry.  KD absolutely dominated game 3, more points, higher shooting percentage, the works, advantage Durant.  If the Warriors sweep tonight and Curry outplays KD, which would mean he would have been the best Warrior for 3 out of the 4 games, he would be very justified if he gets it, and even if Durant gets it, it will be a lot closer than your posts suggest it will be.

The overall stats are skewed by Curry's bad game 3 performance, but if you're the best player on the team for three out of the four games of a sweep, its well within reason to suggest that you're the MVP of the series.

[GGGG]

Curry puts up 40 tonight in a clinching game, and he's likely the MVP.  There can be a lot of recency bias in these votes.

[StillAWarrior]

In this very thread.  And it is a common mantra on here.

The same poster claims that neither the Cavs teams or the Heat teams have HOFers next to him.

And regarding the 2015 team, I've been eviscerated on here in the past for pointing out that Love came to Cleveland as an MVP caliber player (finished 6th in 2012 and 11th in 2014), and that Kyrie is an MVP caliber pg (will likely finish 5th or 6th in MVP voting this year).  The arguments were that Love only racked up stats because he played on a crappy team; and that Kyrie looked good because of Lebron.

You may not have seen the posts here, but they are reasonably common.

Yeah, I've been reading the thread.  I'll admit that I didn't recall seeing WarriorDad claim that LeBron would be 6-0 in the finals -- which doesn't even make sense since he's played in eight of them before this year.

I guess I'm just too literal and this is a semantic argument.  My comment was that I don't recall ever seeing anyone say that LeBron's teammates sucked in all those finals.  Honestly, I don't even interpret WarriorDad's obvious hyperbole to be saying that.  Arguing that Jordan had a better supporting cast does not equal arguing that LeBron's supporting casts sucked.  Arguing that Love and Irving might not be HOFers does not equal arguing that they suck.  As I said, perhaps I'm being too literal.

The argument is similar to how Wades feels about LeBron.  He takes a lot of heat on here from people who say he thinks LeBron sucks.  But, he's been very clear...he thinks LeBron is one of the greatest ever.  He also happens to think he's a jerk...but that's an entirely different subject.  I think people who are arguing that MJ had great teammates aren't generally arguing that LBJ's sucked.  Except for 2007, of course.  That team sucked.   

[Jay Bee]

Game 2, Curry scores more, KD shoots a higher percentage, but Curry breaks the record for most 3's in a finals game, if you attempt 17 3s you're almost always going to have a lower shooting percentage than someone who only attempts 3, advantage Curry. 

Yes, that's why FG% isn't relevant. eFG%, however, is. In game 3, KD was at 78.6%; SC was at 59.6%.

For the series, KD is at 63.6%; SC is at a blah 50.0%.

Don't see a good argument for Steph unless he does some remarkable shooting the rest of the series.

[forgetful]

Officiating is hilarious in this game.  KD gets a T for making the travel signal to a ref, because James traveled. Lebron screams at the ref and bows up to him, because the official correctly called a charge on him and nothing.

[GGGG]

Officiating is hilarious in this game.  KD gets a T for making the travel signal to a ref, because James traveled. Lebron screams at the ref and bows up to him, because the official correctly called a charge on him and nothing.

Do you know what KD said?

[forgetful]

Do you know what KD said?

No, but he was neither demonstrative or aggressive. 

James was both, bowing up, bobbing his head in an aggressive antagonistic manner, and bowing his arms up in again, an aggressive demonstrative manner. 

The latter was far more egregious. 

If any deserved a T, it was James.  He looked like the drunk guy at the bar challenging some other dude to a fight for talking to his girl.

Seriously, go watch the James interaction again.  That absolutely deserved a T.

[GGGG]

No,

Oh.

[Pakuni]

Officiating is hilarious in this game.  KD gets a T for making the travel signal to a ref, because James traveled. Lebron screams at the ref and bows up to him, because the official correctly called a charge on him and nothing.

Cavs are getting all the breaks in this series

[forgetful]

Yeah, I've been reading the thread.  I'll admit that I didn't recall seeing WarriorDad claim that LeBron would be 6-0 in the finals -- which doesn't even make sense since he's played in eight of them before this year.

I guess I'm just too literal and this is a semantic argument.  My comment was that I don't recall ever seeing anyone say that LeBron's teammates sucked in all those finals.  Honestly, I don't even interpret WarriorDad's obvious hyperbole to be saying that.  Arguing that Jordan had a better supporting cast does not equal arguing that LeBron's supporting casts sucked.  Arguing that Love and Irving might not be HOFers does not equal arguing that they suck.  As I said, perhaps I'm being too literal.

The argument is similar to how Wades feels about LeBron.  He takes a lot of heat on here from people who say he thinks LeBron sucks.  But, he's been very clear...he thinks LeBron is one of the greatest ever.  He also happens to think he's a jerk...but that's an entirely different subject.  I think people who are arguing that MJ had great teammates aren't generally arguing that LBJ's sucked.  Except for 2007, of course.  That team sucked.   

I really don't think WarriorDad was using hyperbole there, but fully get your point.  I think part of the general problem with the internet and discussion boards is that things like hyperbole, get misunderstood, and often, because of trying to keep things short, we don't fully express our thoughts, leading to misunderstandings that devolve into each site entrenching into their camp. 

I know I'm guilty of that at times, and also realize that my statements/arguments do not come across the way in writing as I think they sound/should come off in my head.  Often leads to the thought, "how the hell did we get here."

[WarriorDad]

In this very thread.  And it is a common mantra on here.

The same poster claims that neither the Cavs teams or the Heat teams have HOFers next to him.

And regarding the 2015 team, I've been eviscerated on here in the past for pointing out that Love came to Cleveland as an MVP caliber player (finished 6th in 2012 and 11th in 2014), and that Kyrie is an MVP caliber pg (will likely finish 5th or 6th in MVP voting this year).  The arguments were that Love only racked up stats because he played on a crappy team; and that Kyrie looked good because of Lebron.

You may not have seen the posts here, but they are reasonably common.

You are making the same mistake as the other guy.  Are you really comparing Rodman and Pippen, sure fire HOFers while they played to Love and Irving, neither of which are sure fire?  Pippen made the all NBA top 50 players of all time.  Rodman was a 7X All Defensive team, a case can be made for greatest rebounder ever to play.  https://clutchpoints.com/dennis-rodman-greatest-rebounder-nba-history/      The comparisons are not the same.  Then you go to the next level of players after the big three on each team, and the Cavs are trash compared to Kukoc, Kerr, BJ, Harper, Longley.  It isn't comparable at all.

The 2015 Cavs team was decent, it also had to go up against one of the great dynasty teams in NBA history.  In fact all four of these Cavs teams have had to do that.    And yes, Michael on these Cavs teams goes 0-4.  Lebron on our Bulls teams also goes 6-0.

[wadesworld]

You are making the same mistake as the other guy.  Are you really comparing Rodman and Pippen, sure fire HOFers to Love and Irving, neither of which are sure fire?  Pippen made the all NBA top 50 players of all time.  Rodman was a 7X All Defensive team.  The comparisons are not the same.  Then you go to the next level and the Cavs are trash. 

The 2015 Cavs team was decent, it also had to go up against one of the great dynasty teams in NBA history.  In fact all four of these Cavs teams have had to do that.    And yes, Michael on these Cavs teams goes 0-4.  Lebron on our Bulls teams also goes 6-0.

Chicos pretending to be a Chicago sports fan is hysterical.

The Heat team with MJ in place of LBJ sweeps the Mavs.

[WarriorDad]

Yeah, I've been reading the thread.  I'll admit that I didn't recall seeing WarriorDad claim that LeBron would be 6-0 in the finals -- which doesn't even make sense since he's played in eight of them before this year.

I guess I'm just too literal and this is a semantic argument.  My comment was that I don't recall ever seeing anyone say that LeBron's teammates sucked in all those finals.  Honestly, I don't even interpret WarriorDad's obvious hyperbole to be saying that.  Arguing that Jordan had a better supporting cast does not equal arguing that LeBron's supporting casts sucked.  Arguing that Love and Irving might not be HOFers does not equal arguing that they suck.  As I said, perhaps I'm being too literal.

The argument is similar to how Wades feels about LeBron.  He takes a lot of heat on here from people who say he thinks LeBron sucks.  But, he's been very clear...he thinks LeBron is one of the greatest ever.  He also happens to think he's a jerk...but that's an entirely different subject.  I think people who are arguing that MJ had great teammates aren't generally arguing that LBJ's sucked.  Except for 2007, of course.  That team sucked.   

My 6-0 claim is Lebron on Michael's Bulls teams would be 6-0, too.  Michael would not be 1-3 against these GS Warriors teams, in my opinion.  Michael had a much better supporting cast, and was the greatest every to play the game, but he wasn't able to get very good team to the top, he took great teams to the top.  Lebron has take great teams and average teams to the top.

[WarriorDad]

Chicos pretending to be a Chicago sports fan is hysterical.

The Heat team with MJ in place of LBJ sweeps the Mavs.

No Chicos here, I'll put my Chicago fandom up against anyone.  I agree, MJ with that Heat teams wins.  LBJ stunk.  Michael with this Cavs team doesn't beat Golden State, doesn't even get to the finals with some of them.  Michael never took a team to the finals that wasn't a 1 seed.