NBA '17

[Silkk the Shaka]

No idea.  They did have Kyrie for 1 game (they still lost). 

But people often talk about how James would have had another championship ('15) if not for injuries. 

Why is it not ok to ponder about a healthy Curry?  It isn't a massive upset with an injured Curry.

Honestly, it is why I don't look as much at championships (or upsets), as a barometer of greatness for a player.  Too many variables playing a role, besides the player. 

Valid point.  In retrospect, I wonder how much of that was influenced still by their regular season, when Curry was healthy.

And Bogut went down, removing any semblance of interior defense (he was 2nd team all NBA defense 2015), leading to high ball screen after high ball screen for LeBron & Kyrie to get a head of steam and finish with no challenger at the rim.

And Iggy's back was out the whole series (2015 finals MVP for guarding LeBron).

And the Draymond suspension when LeBron egregiously tripped him at midcourt (could have torn his ACL), then Draymond flailed at him.

[GGGG]

And Bogut went down, removing any semblance of interior defense (he was 2nd team all NBA defense 2015), leading to high ball screen after high ball screen for LeBron & Kyrie to get a head of steam and finish with no challenger at the rim.

And Iggy's back was out the whole series (2015 finals MVP for guarding LeBron).

And the Draymond suspension when LeBron egregiously tripped him at midcourt (could have torn his ACL), then Draymond flailed at him.

Lol. 

[Silkk the Shaka]

Lol.

You're right, the only player to ever have mitigating circumstances work against him is LeBron! My mistake.

[GGGG]

You're right, the only player to ever have mitigating circumstances work against him is LeBron! My mistake.

No I was laughing at your lack of perspective. 

[Silkk the Shaka]

No I was laughing at your lack of perspective.

Can you elaborate on the perspective I'm lacking? Or are you saying the Warriors with MVP Curry coming off post-season knee surgery, without their only interior defender (2nd team all defense), the 2015 finals MVP with a creaking back, and one of their all-stars dubiously suspended was the same team that won 73 regular season games?

[GGGG]

Can you elaborate on the perspective I'm lacking? Or are you saying the Warriors with MVP Curry coming off post-season knee surgery, without their only interior defender (2nd team all defense), the 2015 finals MVP with a creaking back, and one of their all-stars dubiously suspended was the same team that won 73 regular season games?

He wasn't "dubiously suspended."  It was obvious at the time and is obvious in retrospect.

[forgetful]

He wasn't "dubiously suspended."  It was obvious at the time and is obvious in retrospect.

If that was reversed.  Lebron wouldn't have gotten a flagrant and wouldn't have been suspended.  If it had been any other two players, it wouldn't have been a flagrant and he wouldn't have been suspended. 

If you do not realize that.  You lack perspective. 

[StillAWarrior]

If that was reversed.  Lebron wouldn't have gotten a flagrant and wouldn't have been suspended.  If it had been any other two players, it wouldn't have been a flagrant and he wouldn't have been suspended. 

If you do not realize that.  You lack perspective.

Actually, I think you're probably half right.  If it had been any other player, he wouldn't have been suspended.  Green was on a very short leash with the NBA after nailing Adams in the nuts twice.  And, frankly, you might be completely right and he wouldn't have been suspended if it hadn't been LeBron.  Either way, if Green had been able to control those "involuntary" kicks and knees against OKC, he probably wouldn't have been suspended in the Finals.

[GGGG]

If that was reversed.  Lebron wouldn't have gotten a flagrant and wouldn't have been suspended.  If it had been any other two players, it wouldn't have been a flagrant and he wouldn't have been suspended. 

If you do not realize that.  You lack perspective. 

You are correct that Lebron wouldn't have been suspended.  But not because of any bias or any other made up reason you can come up with.  It's because Draymond was suspended for committing FOUR flagrant fouls during the playoffs.  "Flagrant foul accumulation."  It's an objective rule.

Since Lebron didn't pick up any earlier in the playoffs (as I recall), he wouldn't have been suspended had he committed the flagrant foul.

So not only is my perspective 100% accurate, I actually understand the rule by which Draymond was suspended. 

Again, I will just add this to your pile of sh*tty Lebron takes.  It's pretty impressive.

[MerrittsMustache]

If that was reversed.  Lebron wouldn't have gotten a flagrant and wouldn't have been suspended.  If it had been any other two players, it wouldn't have been a flagrant and he wouldn't have been suspended. 

If you do not realize that.  You lack perspective.

Just to be clear, Green didn't get suspended simply for striking LeBron in the groin and then swinging ("flailing") at him again. The suspension came because it was Green's fourth flagrant foul point in the playoffs. LeBron was assessed an after-the-fact technical for his actions.

You're right that most players wouldn't have been suspended because very few players would have been assessed 3 flagrant foul points prior to that.

You're wrong that Green is the only player who would have been given a flagrant foul for those actions.

[MU82]

Draymond Green was a multiple offender of the same violation. He had been assessed personal fouls, technical fouls and flagrant fouls for it in the past. The league had little choice but to suspend him when he did it AGAIN.

Speculation about whether another player might or might not have gotten the suspension is just that - speculation. Based purely on opinions and not facts.

I'm quite sure that any player who had done what Green did MULTIPLE times would have gotten suspended. But that, too, is an opinion.

The Warriors had a 3-1 lead in that series. They imploded for numerous reasons, and perhaps the absence of Bogut and lingering effects of Curry's injury were two of them. But ...

Bogut averaged only 13 minutes and was a minus-19 in the first 4 games - 3 of which GS won - and he played only 10 minutes with 0 pts, 1 reb and 1 blk in the victory that gave GS its 3-1 lead. He had one decent game (5 blks, 6 reb, +10 in 15 mins) in Game 2, but otherwise was a non-factor, and I have trouble calling him one of the Warriors' important players in the series even before he got hurt.

Curry, we'll never know how much he was "limited." But he did have 38 pts in G4 and 30 in G6, and he did average 39 mins in the last 4 games.

The Warriors lost their poise and pretty much gave away 2 games (G5 and G6). After that, it was a one-game series; that the team with the best player on the planet (not to mention Kyrie and Love) emerged victorious shouldn't have shocked anybody even if GS was favored at home.

[forgetful]

Just to be clear, Green didn't get suspended simply for striking LeBron in the groin and then swinging ("flailing") at him again. The suspension came because it was Green's fourth flagrant foul point in the playoffs. LeBron was assessed an after-the-fact technical for his actions.

You're right that most players wouldn't have been suspended because very few players would have been assessed 3 flagrant foul points prior to that.

You're wrong that Green is the only player who would have been given a flagrant foul for those actions.

I'm aware that it was not a suspension for that one play, that it was for the accumulation of 4 flagrant fouls. 

I'm simply saying that it was not a flagrant.  No way that was a flagrant foul...maybe a technical, but not a flagrant.  And in the other situations I described it would not have been called a flagrant foul.  It was done because it was Green and Lebron. 

I actually despise Green.  Don't like his game, but I think he was screwed in that call.  It was a reputation call (Green for being dirty; and star treatment for Lebron).

[GGGG]

I'm aware that it was not a suspension for that one play, that it was for the accumulation of 4 flagrant fouls. 

I'm simply saying that it was not a flagrant.  No way that was a flagrant foul...maybe a technical, but not a flagrant.  And in the other situations I described it would not have been called a flagrant foul.  It was done because it was Green and Lebron. 

I actually despise Green.  Don't like his game, but I think he was screwed in that call.  It was a reputation call (Green for being dirty; and star treatment for Lebron).

Sorry that’s just wrong. That’s a flagrant foul period.

[GGGG]

And furthermore, when the ball is in play, a technical foul cannot be called for physical contact. It’s either a regular foul or a flagrant foul.

So Green could not have simply been given a technical foul.

[forgetful]

And furthermore, when the ball is in play, a technical foul cannot be called for physical contact. It’s either a regular foul or a flagrant foul.

So Green could not have simply been given a technical foul. Again, learn the rules.

He most certainly could.

You do realize that they could have left it a common foul, and call technical's on both James and Green for jawing, instead of upgrading Green's to a flagrant (wrong decision) and calling a technical on James.

[GGGG]

He most certainly could.

You do realize that they could have left it a common foul, and call technical's on both James and Green for jawing, instead of upgrading Green's to a flagrant (wrong decision) and calling a technical on James.

So you think that they should call a nut punch a regular foul????  Cmon...

[jesmu84]

MJ never got swept in the finals.

[wadesworld]

“Put the kids to sleep.”

Van Gundy on point.

Where’s LBJ’s next stop?

[MU82]

MJ never got swept in the finals.

MJ never lost in the Finals. Heck, he never even faced a Game 7.

It's the main reason why despite the annual "who's better" fun that folks like to have, it's really an easy call.

One could point to other things, too, but one guy went 6-for-6 ... and the other didn't.

[StillAWarrior]

MJ never lost in the Finals. Heck, he never even faced a Game 7.

It's the main reason why despite the annual "who's better" fun that folks like to have, it's really an easy call.

One could point to other things, too, but one guy went 6-for-6 ... and the other didn't.

Agreed.  In my opinion, this is why Jordan is still on the top.  What bugs me is people talk like it's not even close, citing only this stat.  I think it's close.  And I also think it's not fair to LeBron to fault him for making it to the Finals more times but not winning -- particularly when two of those losses (soon to be three) were against an all-time great team.  Only the Dallas series stands out to me as completely inexcusable, and I'm willing to pin that on LeBron..

And, after all the debates about how many HOFers each of them had on their teams, as I watched the game last night I couldn't help thinking about that "other" HOFer.  Screw Pippen, Rodman, Wade, Bosh, et al.  Jordan had Jackson.  Game.  Set.  Match.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

MJ never lost in the Finals. Heck, he never even faced a Game 7.

It's the main reason why despite the annual "who's better" fun that folks like to have, it's really an easy call.

One could point to other things, too, but one guy went 6-for-6 ... and the other didn't.

You do realize it's a team game.  Paxson's 3 against Phoenix in 1993 saved the Bulls from a game 7 on the road.  But Jordan gets the credit..

The Bulls bench made a huge rally vs Portland in game 6.  IIRC, they were down 15 heading into the 4th quarter.  Jordan was on the bench while guys like Jud Buchler chipped away at the lead, setting the stage for Jordan to seal it down the stretch.  But hey, let's just give all the credit to Jordan.

[Its DJOver]

Agreed.  In my opinion, this is why Jordan is still on the top.  What bugs me is people talk like it's not even close, citing only this stat.  I think it's close.  And I also think it's not fair to LeBron to fault him for making it to the Finals more times but not winning -- particularly when two of those losses (soon to be three) were against an all-time great team.  Only the Dallas series stands out to me as completely inexcusable, and I'm willing to pin that on LeBron..

And, after all the debates about how many HOFers each of them had on their teams, as I watched the game last night I couldn't help thinking about that "other" HOFer.  Screw Pippen, Rodman, Wade, Bosh, et al.  Jordan had Jackson.  Game.  Set.  Match.

I think saying it was completely inexcusable is a bit of a stretch when it wasn't even the biggest upset in the playoffs that year.  If Lebron had the 1 seed and lost in the first round to the 8 seed, Lebron haters would have a field day, yet I don't see that mentioned anywhere near Duncan's legacy.  I think the Heat were the better team so it was an upset, but it's not like that Dallas team was full of scrubs.  Dirk averaged almost 30 a game the entire playoffs.  Terry averaged almost 20.  Kidd was still dishing almost 8 assists per game.  They also had in their prime Shawn Marion and in their prime Tyson Chandler.  Not one of the all time greats by any means, but that team did have some talent on it. 

Also when discussing all time greats, will losing to Dallas in 2011 forever be on Kobe's, Durant's, Harden's, and Westbrook's resume, the way its plastered across Lebrons?  Kobe was coming off back to back championships and was swept, and the combo in OKC lost in 5.

The 2011 finals was disappointing no doubt for Lebron, but when it's the only loss that stands out (your words), and it gets brought up as much as it does, you know its the first thing that anti Lebron people will bring up until the end of time, followed shortly by MJ's record in the finals.

[GGGG]

Agreed.  In my opinion, this is why Jordan is still on the top.  What bugs me is people talk like it's not even close, citing only this stat.  I think it's close.  And I also think it's not fair to LeBron to fault him for making it to the Finals more times but not winning -- particularly when two of those losses (soon to be three) were against an all-time great team.  Only the Dallas series stands out to me as completely inexcusable, and I'm willing to pin that on LeBron..

This is a very fair take and I agree completely.

[GGGG]

BTW, when Durant is shooting like he was last night, he is the best player on the planet.  Also a very underrated defender. 

[Its DJOver]

BTW, when Durant is shooting like he was last night, he is the best player on the planet.  Also a very underrated defender.

Not trying to take anything away from KD because he was a beast last night, but it certainly helped that he could get Love on him anytime he wanted. 

Also imagine how much criticism would be coming his way if Lebron had a line like Curry's last night.  Warriors got a big boost from AI coming back, I'm not sure they win if he has another DNP.