NBA '17

[MerrittsMustache]

I like data driven facts.  http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebrons-finals-record-isnt-really-a-disappointment/

He has under delivered in two, the fact that they even got to the Finals in three others is staggering and they also managed to beat the only 73 win team in history.   He gets points deducted for losing ones he shouldn't have, he earns bonus points for bringing teams to the Finals that had no business being there even if they ended up losing.  That's the one disappointment I had in Michael. the 6-0 is amazing, but he was not able in my opinion to ever get a team that wasn't supposed to make it to the Finals, thus never having the ability to risk ultimately losing in a final.  Lebron suffers from a bit of Buffalo Bills complex where they lost 4 straight SB's but had no business being in one of them and was gifted an appearance in another, yet they got there anyway which is a great accomplishment to begin with.

According to the article that you linked to in this post, Jordan's Bulls won 2 titles that they weren't "supposed" to win.

Additionally, LeBron had the huge upset of GS in the Finals but also lost to Dallas when his team had a 63% chance of winning. Jordan didn't pull off a significant upset in the Finals but his team never lost as heavy favorites either.

It's interesting that we've reached the point of nit-picking that we're now holding it against great players for being on great teams 

[wadesworld]

I’m fine not sharing the opinion that LBJ does absolutely nothing wrong. I’m sure his 5 turnovers per game and his attempt to be hidden on Javale McGhee and Jordan Bell leading to their ability to get wide open rim attacks.

I’m glad some Scoopers are great with LBJ’s defense. My guess is the Warriors share that opinion.

[GGGG]

I’m fine not sharing the opinion that LBJ does absolutely nothing wrong. I’m sure his 5 turnovers per game and his attempt to be hidden on Javale McGhee and Jordan Bell leading to their ability to get wide open rim attacks.

I’m glad some Scoopers are great with LBJ’s defense. My guess is the Warriors share that opinion.

Ah hyperbole. The defense of the weak.

[wadesworld]

Ah hyperbole. The defense of the weak.

What hyperbole?

[wadesworld]

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2018/06/04/monday-hot-clicks-nba-finals-warriors-cavaliers-lebron-james-jr-smith-bench-video

Seems like a super fun guy to have leading the locker room.

[🏀]

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2018/06/04/monday-hot-clicks-nba-finals-warriors-cavaliers-lebron-james-jr-smith-bench-video

Seems like a super fun guy to have leading the locker room.

Looks like a guy realizing he should've taken the shot instead of passing.

[forgetful]

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2018/06/04/monday-hot-clicks-nba-finals-warriors-cavaliers-lebron-james-jr-smith-bench-video

Seems like a super fun guy to have leading the locker room.

My question is where was the coach during all that? 

[wadesworld]

My question is where was the coach during all that?

It’s pretty common for coaches to meet off to the side first and then address the team. The problem is the only words Coach LeBron had to say was yelling at Coach Lue after freezing out the two players who obviously feel worse than any of the other players before burying his head in his tissue the rest of the “huddle” before walking back to the court.

Looks like a guy realizing he should've taken the shot instead of passing.

Then yell at yourself not at your coach.

[🏀]

It’s pretty common for coaches to meet off to the side first and then address the team. The problem is the only words Coach LeBron had to say was yelling at Coach Lue after freezing out the two players who obviously feel worse than any of the other players before burying his head in his tissue the rest of the “huddle” before walkin
Then yell at yourself not at your coach.

It’s pretty common for coaches to meet off to the side first and then address the team. The problem is the only words Coach LeBron had to say was yelling at Coach Lue after freezing out the two players who obviously feel worse than any of the other players before burying his head in his tissue the rest of the “huddle” before walking back to the court.

Then yell at yourself not at your coach.

Yep. MJ wouldn't have passed.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Yep. MJ wouldn't have passed.

One of the most iconic shots in finals history is a Jordan-assisted Kerr game winner so not sure I buy that.

I do wholeheartedly agree that the video is a horrendous display of leadership, and likely cost them overtime.

[MerrittsMustache]

My question is where was the coach during all that?

Where were ANY of the Cavs during all that? They might as well have gone home before OT. Someone, I don't care if it's the 14th man in street clothes, someone needed to tell JR Smith and George Hill that the team has their back and there's still ball to be played. Korver clapped a few times and may have said something but literally any coach or player needed to sit next to those guys and show some leadership. I honestly think they were all waiting for LeBron to do it but when it became clear that he wasn't going to, someone else needed to step up.

The problem is the only words Coach LeBron had to say was yelling at Coach Lue after freezing out the two players who obviously feel worse than any of the other players before burying his head in his tissue the rest of the “huddle” before walking back to the court.

Then yell at yourself not at your coach.

LeBron asked Lue if Cleveland had any timeouts left and was sickened to learn that they did. Let's be real though. That's something he should have known.


I like LeBron a lot and think he's firmly in place as the second-best player ever but that was far from being his finest moment and it's more ammo for LeBron haters.

[GGGG]

I like LeBron a lot and think he's firmly in place as the second-best player ever but that was far from being his finest moment and it's more ammo for LeBron haters.

Yes.  Their irrationality is enhanced by additional irrationality. 

[StillAWarrior]

LeBron asked Lue if Cleveland had any timeouts left and was sickened to learn that they did. Let's be real though. That's something he should have known.

I like LeBron a lot and think he's firmly in place as the second-best player ever but that was far from being his finest moment and it's more ammo for LeBron haters.

I agree; absolutely not his finest moment.  Pretty bad, actually.  A very unfortunate reaction to to what was one of the worst moments of his career.

Also, unless people are a lot better lip readers than me, I'm not going to assume that LeBron didn't know they had a time out.  Clearly, he's asking about time outs, but I certainly can't distinguish between "did we have a time out?" and "didn't we have a time out?"  Of course, that doesn't answer why he didn't call it himself.

[forgetful]

Where were ANY of the Cavs during all that? They might as well have gone home before OT. Someone, I don't care if it's the 14th man in street clothes, someone needed to tell JR Smith and George Hill that the team has their back and there's still ball to be played. Korver clapped a few times and may have said something but literally any coach or player needed to sit next to those guys and show some leadership. I honestly think they were all waiting for LeBron to do it but when it became clear that he wasn't going to, someone else needed to step up.

LeBron asked Lue if Cleveland had any timeouts left and was sickened to learn that they did. Let's be real though. That's something he should have known.


I like LeBron a lot and think he's firmly in place as the second-best player ever but that was far from being his finest moment and it's more ammo for LeBron haters.

Agree with all of this.  Also makes clear that it appears no one was fully aware of the entire game situation, which is unacceptable. 

[cheebs09]

I agree; absolutely not his finest moment.  Pretty bad, actually.  A very unfortunate reaction to to what was one of the worst moments of his career.

Also, unless people are a lot better lip readers than me, I'm not going to assume that LeBron didn't know they had a time out.  Clearly, he's asking about time outs, but I certainly can't distinguish between "did we have a time out?" and "didn't we have a time out?"  Of course, that doesn't answer why he didn't call it himself.

The weird part was he did try to call a timeout. I have to think he only does that if he knows for sure they have one. Otherwise, why risk losing the game on a technical?

[forgetful]

According to the article that you linked to in this post, Jordan's Bulls won 2 titles that they weren't "supposed" to win.

Additionally, LeBron had the huge upset of GS in the Finals but also lost to Dallas when his team had a 63% chance of winning. Jordan didn't pull off a significant upset in the Finals but his team never lost as heavy favorites either.

It's interesting that we've reached the point of nit-picking that we're now holding it against great players for being on great teams 

Curious. 

Do you think the Cavs win that series if Curry was healthy.  He was probably at 80%.  Scored 5 ppg less in the playoffs while shooting 7 percentage points lower in his eFG%.  Far less mobility that limited his ability to attack/get open, or guard Kyrie.

[Pakuni]

Curious. 

Do you think the Cavs win that series if Curry was healthy.  He was probably at 80%.  Scored 5 ppg less in the playoffs while shooting 7 percentage points lower in his eFG%.  Far less mobility that limited his ability to attack/get open, or guard Kyrie.

It's a pointless question.
Do you think the Warriors would have won in '15 if the Cavs had Kyrie and Love?
I mean, the Cavs' starting lineup in the series featured Delly, Mozgov and Shumpert. Blecch.

[MerrittsMustache]

Curious. 

Do you think the Cavs win that series if Curry was healthy.  He was probably at 80%.  Scored 5 ppg less in the playoffs while shooting 7 percentage points lower in his eFG%.  Far less mobility that limited his ability to attack/get open, or guard Kyrie.

Who knows? Probably not...but the Warriors with Curry at 80% were still favored by 8 points in Game 5 and by 5 points in Game 7.

[forgetful]

It's a pointless question.
Do you think the Warriors would have won in '15 if the Cavs had Kyrie and Love?
I mean, the Cavs' starting lineup in the series featured Delly, Mozgov and Shumpert. Blecch.

No idea.  They did have Kyrie for 1 game (they still lost). 

But people often talk about how James would have had another championship ('15) if not for injuries. 

Why is it not ok to ponder about a healthy Curry?  It isn't a massive upset with an injured Curry.

Honestly, it is why I don't look as much at championships (or upsets), as a barometer of greatness for a player.  Too many variables playing a role, besides the player. 

Who knows? Probably not...but the Warriors with Curry at 80% were still favored by 8 points in Game 5 and by 5 points in Game 7.

Valid point.  In retrospect, I wonder how much of that was influenced still by their regular season, when Curry was healthy. 

[MerrittsMustache]

No idea.  They did have Kyrie for 1 game (they still lost). 

But people often talk about how James would have had another championship ('15) if not for injuries. 

Why is it not ok to ponder about a healthy Curry?  It isn't a massive upset with an injured Curry.

Honestly, it is why I don't look as much at championships (or upsets), as a barometer of greatness for a player.  Too many variables playing a role, besides the player. 

Valid point.  In retrospect, I wonder how much of that was influenced still by their regular season, when Curry was healthy.

Curry wasn't all full strength but he still played all 7 games and averaged 35 minutes per. His shooting percentages were down in the series but they were still better than Kobe's in the 2010 Finals and he was named MVP. It wasn't like Curry was a complete non-factor or sitting in street clothes on the bench.

[Pakuni]

No idea.  They did have Kyrie for 1 game (they still lost). 

But people often talk about how James would have had another championship ('15) if not for injuries. 

Why is it not ok to ponder about a healthy Curry?  It isn't a massive upset with an injured Curry.

Ponder away, but when you're willing to toss aside the Cavs' '16 title because Curry was possibly "80 percent" healthy, then it's only fair to toss aside the Warriors' '15 title because Love and Kyrie were 0 percent healthy.
Seems inconsistent to imply that the Cavs won in 2016 because Curry wasn't perfectly healthy, but argue that you have "no idea" whether the absence of Love and Irving impacted the 2015 result. You'd have to be basketball stupid to believe the absence of two all-stars didn't significantly hurt the Cavs' chances.

"Massive" is a relative term, but clearly Vegas viewed the Cavs' win in 2016 as an upset.
And no, Vegas was absolutely not setting lines in the last three games of the Finals based on what happened a couple of months prior in the regular season.

[4everwarriors]

The weird part was he did try to call a timeout. I have to think he only does that if he knows for sure they have one. Otherwise, why risk losing the game on a technical?

Called "pullin' a Webber," hey?

[forgetful]

Curry wasn't all full strength but he still played all 7 games and averaged 35 minutes per. His shooting percentages were down in the series but they were still better than Kobe's in the 2010 Finals and he was named MVP. It wasn't like Curry was a complete non-factor or sitting in street clothes on the bench.

I agree, and didn't mean to imply otherwise.  My point was simply, that the huge upset, is predicated upon much of Curry's regular season performance.

His regular season he average 30.1 ppg 6.7 assists 3.3 TO and an eFG% of 63%, while leading the league in steals with 2.1 per game.  That is arguably top 5 single season performance in all history. 

In the playoffs he was at 25.1 ppg 5.2 assists 4.2 TO and an eFG% of only 55.6%, while dropping to 1.4 steals per game.  That is still all-star level (if they won he would have still been MVP), but was a substantial drop-off from his otherworldly regular season. 

Their record setting regular season, was due to an all-time great performance.  The "upset" ideas are based on Curry being other-world.  He was an ordinary all-star after the injury.

It is not discounting a title for Lebron, just saying that it wasn't the massive upset he gets credit for by some people (not saying you are one of them).  Too often we forget context.

[forgetful]

Ponder away, but when you're willing to toss aside the Cavs' '16 title because Curry was possibly "80 percent" healthy, then it's only fair to toss aside the Warriors' '15 title because Love and Kyrie were 0 percent healthy.
Seems inconsistent to imply that the Cavs won in 2016 because Curry wasn't perfectly healthy, but argue that you have "no idea" whether the absence of Love and Irving impacted the 2015 result. You'd have to be basketball stupid to believe the absence of two all-stars didn't significantly hurt the Cavs' chances.

"Massive" is a relative term, but clearly Vegas viewed the Cavs' win in 2016 as an upset.
And no, Vegas was absolutely not setting lines in the last three games of the Finals based on what happened a couple of months prior in the regular season.

I think you are putting words into my mouth, but given my prior posting record re. Lebron, that is my fault and I deserve it.

For the record.

I'm not tossing aside any title, just asking the question to see what Merritt/others think.  I have no idea if they win with a healthy Curry or not.  If forced to make a prediction my gut says most likely.  Just like I said I have no idea who wins in 2015. But, if forced to make a prediction, it should be the Cavs with a healthy Kyrie and Love, that team (imo) had absurd talent, more talent than the Warriors.   

But injuries happen.  It is why I don't overly worry about numbers of titles, and why I actually stated that "Honestly, it is why I don't look as much at championships (or upsets), as a barometer of greatness for a player.  Too many variables playing a role, besides the player."

You are right regarding Vegas odds, but your statement is incomplete.  Vegas odds are determined based on expected/actual betting patterns.  The media portrayal of the Warriors (largely based off Curry's regular season), was one of, if not the best team ever.  They were going to command far more bets, because of that, and were favored based on the betting patterns.

My point was, given Curry's injury, that perception was not correct and the teams were pretty even.

[MU82]

Ponder away, but when you're willing to toss aside the Cavs' '16 title because Curry was possibly "80 percent" healthy, then it's only fair to toss aside the Warriors' '15 title because Love and Kyrie were 0 percent healthy.
Seems inconsistent to imply that the Cavs won in 2016 because Curry wasn't perfectly healthy, but argue that you have "no idea" whether the absence of Love and Irving impacted the 2015 result. You'd have to be basketball stupid to believe the absence of two all-stars didn't significantly hurt the Cavs' chances.

"Massive" is a relative term, but clearly Vegas viewed the Cavs' win in 2016 as an upset.
And no, Vegas was absolutely not setting lines in the last three games of the Finals based on what happened a couple of months prior in the regular season.

The LeBron-haters will go to any lengths to discredit his accomplishments. It's pretty funny, actually.

Having said that, as a guy who considers LeBron to be the second-best player ever and who really enjoys watching him play, I'll throw in this:

He was the opposite of a leader on the bench between the end of regulation and OT in Game 1. To borrow MUFINY's term, he was a de-motivator! He helped cost the Cavs any sliver of a chance they had at victory.

LeBron should have been screaming: "OK, that sucked! But we're still gonna win this thing! They're not all that great! We've still got this! JR is gonna play huge for us in OT! We all are! We've got this m-f-er! Eff Golden State! Let's go kick their a$$e$!"

Could they have won if he took that attitude? We'll never know. Instead, he sulked like a little baby and acted like the game was already lost - which it was, partly because of the way he behaved.