NBA '17

[wadesworld]

I forgot where I read it recently, but if Shaq was 20 years old, and coming into the NBA today, his career would be drastically different, and probably no where near as valuable as he was when he came into the league. He'd obviously have value as a rim protector and rebounder, but tough to imagine him being the focal point of an offense in today's NBA. For as much as Shaq would get intentionally fouled to go to the line during his career, the analytics today would keep him off the floor for most tight late game situations.

Totally disagree with you on this.  20 year old Shaq was not the same as 30 year old Shaq.  20 year old Shaq was a freak athlete for his size who could get out and run.  For as much as Capella is going to be an absolute stud and was, in my opinion, the best player on the Rockets in game 7, 20 year old Shaq in today's NBA would've been a much better version of him.  20 year old Shaq would've been an absolute terror in the pick and roll.

[DegenerateDish]

Totally disagree with you on this.  20 year old Shaq was not the same as 30 year old Shaq.  20 year old Shaq was a freak athlete for his size who could get out and run.  For as much as Capella is going to be an absolute stud and was, in my opinion, the best player on the Rockets in game 7, 20 year old Shaq in today's NBA would've been a much better version of him.  20 year old Shaq would've been an absolute terror in the pick and roll.

Capella is 6'10'', 240ish, Shaq is 7'1'', and measured 303 lbs at the combine, I have a tough time putting him and Capella in a comp. I don't disagree that young Shaq was way more athletic at 20 than 30 year old Shaq, and I didn't say he'd be a bust or anything, but I don't know what offense today is going to feed Shaq in the post every other possession. I'm not trying to comp AD to Shaq here, but you have to defend AD on the perimeter, there's zero threat of that with Shaq.

[Pakuni]

Capella is 6'10'', 240ish, Shaq is 7'1'', and measured 303 lbs at the combine, I have a tough time putting him and Capella in a comp. I don't disagree that young Shaq was way more athletic at 20 than 30 year old Shaq, and I didn't say he'd be a bust or anything, but I don't know what offense today is going to feed Shaq in the post every other possession. I'm not trying to comp AD to Shaq here, but you have to defend AD on the perimeter, there's zero threat of that with Shaq.

I'm fairly confident a mediocre NBA coach would find a way to take advantage of Shaq's skillset, regardless of the era. If anything, minus the likes of Mourning, Robinson, Ewing and Olajuwon in today's NBA, Shaq arguably would be more dominant than ever.

I suppose it's a chicken-egg argument, but I tend to think the style of ball being played today is more a reflection of the lack of dominant centers than it is coaches who don't want or can't figure out how to use a dominant post presence.

Does that fact that DeAndre Ayton, Mo Bamba and Wendell Carter - traditional centers with little to no perimeter games - are projected top 7-8 picks in next month's draft change your thinking here at all?

[GGGG]

Shaq would be fine.  Wouldn't be able to isolate like he used to, but he would still be a huge presence. 

[Jockey]

Totally disagree with you on this.  20 year old Shaq was not the same as 30 year old Shaq.  20 year old Shaq was a freak athlete for his size who could get out and run.  For as much as Capella is going to be an absolute stud and was, in my opinion, the best player on the Rockets in game 7, 20 year old Shaq in today's NBA would've been a much better version of him.  20 year old Shaq would've been an absolute terror in the pick and roll.

Agree completely about Shaq. He would dominate today as he did when he played. Let's just say that Draymond wouldn't be defending the '5' if Shaq was on the floor.

Capela will be what he is. Never ever even in the same universe as Shaq

[Jockey]

Why would Kukoc get in any more.  He has been eligible for a long time, and hasn't even sniffed getting in.  Every year, more qualified people become eligible. 

He doesn't have the stats, didn't have the impact, and has no reason making the HOF.

If he gets in, it will be because it is the Basketball Hall of Fame - not the NBA HOF.

[DegenerateDish]

I'm fairly confident a mediocre NBA coach would find a way to take advantage of Shaq's skillset, regardless of the era. If anything, minus the likes of Mourning, Robinson, Ewing and Olajuwon in today's NBA, Shaq arguably would be more dominant than ever.

I suppose it's a chicken-egg argument, but I tend to think the style of ball being played today is more a reflection of the lack of dominant centers than it is coaches who don't want or can't figure out how to use a dominant post presence.

Does that fact that DeAndre Ayton, Mo Bamba and Wendell Carter - traditional centers with little to no perimeter games - are projected top 7-8 picks in next month's draft change your thinking here at all?

I still think Shaq is a physical force and puts up numbers, all I was saying is the NBA is in a different era now, and I think both Shaq and the league would adjust to him differently today. I’m fine being incorrect here, I’m not trying to disrespect Shaq either, I just think he probably benefited a bit from being a 90’s/early 00’s guy, instead of the last 5 years. If it’s a dumb argument, I can respect what you guys are countering with.

[wadesworld]

I still think Shaq is a physical force and puts up numbers, all I was saying is the NBA is in a different era now, and I think both Shaq and the league would adjust to him differently today. I’m fine being incorrect here, I’m not trying to disrespect Shaq either, I just think he probably benefited a bit from being a 90’s/early 00’s guy, instead of the last 5 years. If it’s a dumb argument, I can respect what you guys are countering with.

I agree it wouldn't be the same style of dominance that he showed when he was with the Lakers where they would just throw it in to him and let him physically dominate everyone by backing them down, I just think a guy as big as he was with the ability to move like he did in his time with the Magic when he was in his early 20s would be the best pick and roll big man in the NBA right now, and the pick and roll completely dominates the NBA.  Guys like Capela, Whiteside, Jordan, Adams, Drummond, and Gobert are all really, really good NBA players with no outside game at all.  I think 20 year old Shaq would've been much better than any of them in the current NBA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0grIbJ5O-8

If you skip to 3:00 you start to see some of the pick and roll, ability to catch the lob or catch the ball on the move and finish.  I think that's a hugely important skill in today's NBA.

[🏀]

I think Shaq v. Anthony Davis would be incredibly entertaining.

[WarriorDad]

Shaq?

Dude is funny but him and Pippen have been going at it for years.  Anyone who thinks that Kukoc is better that Pippen should automatically be placed in an asylum and no longer allowed to express their views on anything.

Of course, and all Bulls fans know this.  That was as much a fun insert as others because the two have gone at it for a long time.

I don't know if Kukoc will make it, but he has a case.  Sam Smith isn't some 25 year old kid with no NBA journalistic bona fides.  I'm biased as behind Jordan, Toni is my favorite Bull all time slightly edging Bob Love, Normy and Artis.  He was the consummate team player and gave up stats to win.  A joy to watch. 

Glad he was honored by FIBA, he's considered a candidate for the Naismith and touted by a few strong supporters in that regard.  Wonderful career.  Some of you act as if he was a bit player, which is koo koo.

[wadesworld]

Of course, and all Bulls fans know this.  That was as much a fun insert as others because the two have gone at it for a long time.

I don't know if Kukoc will make it, but he has a case.  Sam Smith isn't some 25 year old kid with no NBA journalistic bona fides.  I'm biased as behind Jordan, Toni is my favorite Bull all time slightly edging Bob Love, Normy and Artis.  He was the consummate team player and gave up stats to win.  A joy to watch. 

Glad he was honored by FIBA, he's considered a candidate for the Naismith and touted by a few strong supporters in that regard.  Wonderful career.  Some of you act as if he was a bit player, which is koo koo.

Basketball Reference does not even list Toni Kukoc as one of the 250 most likely people to be inducted into the HOF. Their list includes players who they have as having a 1.19% chance of making it to the HOF. It includes players like Michael Finley and Derek Fischer.

Considering him a bit player might be “koo koo” but so is considering him a HOF teammate of MJ’s because he is in the FIBA HOF. The guy was far worse for the Bulls than Love and Kyrie were for the Cavs and to glorify Kukoc as a HOFer while dismissing Kyrie’s and Love’s chances of being HOFers is beyond absurd.

And what’s worse is saying if LBJ got to play alongside “3” (it’s 2, but whatever) HOFers he’d also be 6-0 in Finals when LBJ did get to play alongside 3 (legitimate) HOFers and went 2-2 in NBA Finals next to them.

Koo koo indeed.

[wadesworld]

Who's everyone got?

I say Warriors in 5.

[GGGG]

Basketball Reference does not even list Toni Kukoc as one of the 250 most likely people to be inducted into the HOF. Their list includes players who they have as having a 1.19% chance of making it to the HOF. It includes players like Michael Finley and Derek Fischer.

Considering him a bit player might be “koo koo” but so is considering him a HOF teammate of MJ’s because he is in the FIBA HOF. The guy was far worse for the Bulls than Love and Kyrie were for the Cavs and to glorify Kukoc as a HOFer while dismissing Kyrie’s and Love’s chances of being HOFers is beyond absurd.

And what’s worse is saying if LBJ got to play alongside “3” (it’s 2, but whatever) HOFers he’d also be 6-0 in Finals when LBJ did get to play alongside 3 (legitimate) HOFers and went 2-2 in NBA Finals next to them.

Koo koo indeed.

The only hedge to NBA reference is they base it solely on NBA win shares.  Not what they have done elsewhere.

But yeah, Kukoc isn't going to get in.

[GGGG]

Who's everyone got?

I say Warriors in 5.

If the Cavs are lucky.

[tower912]

Jordan and LbJ are both at the top of the GOAT list.   You can argue either position all day to no avail.   

GS in 5.

My prediction

[forgetful]

Who's everyone got?

I say Warriors in 5.

Warriors in 6.  Officiating and a bit of home cooking will keep the Cavs in at least two games in Cleveland. 

[Pakuni]

Gentlemen's sweep by the Warriors.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Warriors in 6.

[Jockey]

Warriors in 3.

[brewcity77]

He sacrificed numbers for his team, to win.  Spent 8 years playing in Europe.  Fortunately FIBA recognized this and inducted him.

In the 1990s, I didn't follow any team closer than the Bulls. I loved Jordan and really appreciated Kukoc. But no way was he close to a Hall of Famer. Not close. You don't get it for what you don't do (such as sacrificing numbers) you get in for what you do.

He was a nice complimentary player. But he was never an all-star, much less a Hall of Famer.

[🏀]

Warriors in 3.

I like it.

[lawdog77]

Cavs in 6

[StillAWarrior]

Cavs in 6

I like the way you think. I think you’re nuts, but I like the way you think. I hope you’re right.

[WarriorDad]

In the 1990s, I didn't follow any team closer than the Bulls. I loved Jordan and really appreciated Kukoc. But no way was he close to a Hall of Famer. Not close. You don't get it for what you don't do (such as sacrificing numbers) you get in for what you do.

He was a nice complimentary player. But he was never an all-star, much less a Hall of Famer.

Sam Smith became the Chicago Bulls full time writer in 1987, wrote the Jordan Rules and the Second Coming.  I'm hard pressed to name many people more of an expert on the Bulls, especially of the 90's and beyond that Smith.  Lifetime Achievement award by the Pro Basketball Writers Association, not some guy writing for Bleacher Report.

Makes you wonder why Mr. Smith would risk his reputation to vouch for someone that isn't close.



10 BULLS WITH A HALL OF FAME CASE
ON NAISMITH BASKETBALL HALL OF FAME INDUCTION WEEKEND, SAM SMITH LOOKS AT 10 BULLS WHO HAVE AN ARGUMENT FOR FUTURE ENSHRINEMENT

By Sam Smith

The Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame in Springfield, Mass. Friday night conducts its enshrinement for its Class of 2015. It is led by four-time NBA Defensive Player of the Year Dikembe Mutombo. Kentucky coach John Calipari also will be honored. The others are NBA official Dick Bavetta, NBA players JoJo White and Spencer Haywood, the latter who also played in the ABA. Louis Dampier will be enshrined from the ABA. Others will include Tom Heinsohn as a coach, the fourth to be enshrined as player and coach, Lisa Leslie from the WNBA, international coach Lindsay Gaze, the late veteran from the Rens John Isaacs and former coach George Raveling.

So who’s next?

The next few years with veteran NBA stars coming close to retirement should produce highlight Hall of Fame classes. Among those certain to be inducted are Allen Iverson, Jason Kidd, Shaquille O’Neal, Steve Nash and Ray Allen with the likes to Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Paul Pierce and Dirk Nowitzki soon to follow. Then there are others for whom one can make a case, like DePaul’s Mark Aguirre, a former college player of the year who won two championships with the Detroit Pistons and had a career scoring average of 20 points per game, once averaging as much as 29.5 in an NBA season. And there will be cases made for players like Vince Carter, who has scored well over 20,000 points. And though they don’t sound like Hall of Famers, what of players like Tom Chambers, who scored more than 20,000 points?

It’s always a personal and engaging debate.

But what of players, coaches and executives from the Bulls? Who should be among those considered for the Hall of Fame? Here’s a look at some worthy candidates:


JOHNNY KERR
The epochal Bulls broadcaster and first ever head coach is a long overlooked and deserving enshrinee for the breath of his basketball career. In many respects, Kerr represents the diversification and collection of excellence that defines Hall of Fame contributor status. Because the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame is not the NBA Hall of Fame. It celebrates all basketball everywhere. Kerr’s array of achievements should be a model for the contributor category, which is one of three main categories along with player and coach. Kerr has received the Bunn award, which Rod Thorn received at the Thursday night dinner. It represents the Hall’s highest achievement short of enshrinement. Consider Kerr’s career: He led Tilden High School to a city championship and the U. of Illinois to the Final Four. As an NBA rookie starter with the Syracuse Nationals, he became an NBA champion. He was a three-time All-Star center despite playing most of his career in the same conference with Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain. He became the NBA’s original iron man with a consecutive games streak of 844 straight games, which was every game of his career until into his final NBA season. And even then he sat when his coach, Paul Seymour, decided the streak had become a distraction and benched him for one game. As coach of the Bulls first team in 1966-67, he led the only expansion team ever to the playoffs and was named coach of the year. After four seasons coaching, two with the expansion Phoenix Suns, he went to the ABA and the Virginia Squires, where as business manager he was the first to sign George Gervin and Julius Erving. He went on to become one of the NBA’s iconic broadcasters through six Bulls championships and one of the greatest NBA ambassadors. He died Feb. 26, 2009, just hours after the death of fellow Bulls legend Norm Van Lier.


TONI KUKOC
Kukoc is known to Bulls fans as the Sixth Man winner in 1996 with the 72-win greatest team ever and a sixth man and starter for the three-time Bulls champions from 1996-1998. But worldwide in basketball, Kukoc is regarded as one of the greatest ever and one of the pioneers that led to the globalization of the NBA. His Split team won the Euroleague three times and he was named MVP twice. Then he went to play in Italy and his team won the championship and he again was Euroleague MVP. He won multiple Euroleague player of the year awards and is regarded as the most accomplished Euroleague player ever. His teams won the FIBA junior world title, a World Championship and two Olympic silver medals. Kukoc was a clutch shot maker for those Bulls teams, generally the choice for coach Phil Jackson to take the big shot other than Michael Jordan. He played 13 seasons in the NBA and averaged 12.1 points despite being primarily a sixth man. Kukoc recently was hired as special advisor to the Bulls team president.


BOB LOVE
If overcoming adversity in life also was a consideration, Love would be a strong candidate. He turned a severe stuttering issue that even kept him from getting regular meaningful employment after his basketball career into a position with the Bulls as a motivational speaker. Love was a three-time NBA All-Star and one of the top two-way players in the game in his era as a two-time all-defensive team player. Love excelled in a magical seven-year run with the Bulls in which he averaged at least 21 points per game for six consecutive seasons and more than 25 per game in consecutive seasons when the Bulls early 1970s teams were among the best in the NBA. Love missed just four games over a five-year stretch. Among players with more than three seasons with the Bulls, he is the second highest scorer to Michael Jordan at 21.3 per game. Love played 10 seasons in the NBA with a 17.6 average.


DERRICK ROSE
Well, there’s not a lot of MVPs not in the Hall of Fame. Actually, none who are eligible. And there are going to be a lot of former MVPs getting in, like Shaq, Iverson, Duncan, Garnett, Nash, Kobe, LeBron, Dirk and probably Durant and Stephen Curry. Rose was clearly on the way to Springfield the way he started his NBA career with not only the MVP, but All-Star starts and playoff scoring records as a rookie. We obviously know about his succession of knee injuries, but he appears healthy again. And even if he doesn’t play like he did his first few years in the NBA, he can return to All-Star level as Hall of Famer Bernard King did and have a productive next five or six years, which would certainly land him in the Hall of Fame.


JERRY REINSDORF
The Bulls managing partner is the senior owner in the NBA and the only owner with a dynasty team (six or more titles) not in the Hall of Fame. The most recent team owner to be inducted was the Pistons’ Bill Davidson, whose teams won two titles. Reinsdorf also presided over one of the first major privately financed new arenas in the NBA as well as his teams starting the coaching careers of Hall of Famer Phil Jackson as well as top coaches like Doug Collins and Tom Thibodeau.


JERRY KRAUSE
The former Bulls general manager hired by Reinsdorf put together the six championship teams of the 1990s after the drafting of Michael Jordan. Krause drafted the core players Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant in the 1987 draft and then traded for Bill Cartwright with his previous draft pick, Charles Oakley. Krause also made the moves to put the second threepeat in place with the trades for Luc Longley and Dennis Rodman, drafting of Kukoc in the second round with a future pick and signing of veteran free agents like Steve Kerr.


ROD THORN
The Bulls general manager who drafted Michael Jordan received the John W. Bunn Lifetime Achievement award from the Hall of Fame at a dinner Thursday. Thorn deserves Hall of Fame enshrinement for perhaps the most varied career in NBA history as a player for eight years, coach in the NBA and ABA, general manager or team president with the Bulls, Nets and 76ers and league basketball operations director for more than 15 years in two tenures.


JERRY SLOAN
He is in the Hall of Fame as a coach for his career primarily with the Utah Jazz. But as a player for the expansion Bulls and the subsequent decade, Sloan became the face of the Bulls franchise with his relentless physical play. He was a six-time all-defensive team player and two-time All-Star while leading the Bulls’ early 70’s surge to become one of the league’s top teams. He still ranks third in franchise history in games and seasons played and minutes and is the runaway franchise leader in games fouling out. He averaged in double figures every season with the Bulls until being forced to retire with injuries.


DOUG COLLINS
The former Bulls coach has the credentials to be in the Hall of Fame as a contributor. Collins won almost 500 games as an NBA coach with four teams, all of which improved dramatically after he took over. Collins was a four-time All-Star player with the Philadelphia 76ers before injuries cut short his playing career. He was an Olympian in 1972 when his free throws should have won the famously disputed game. He then was a No. 1 overall pick in the NBA draft. Collins also has been a longtime TV broadcaster for the NBA and worldwide ambassador doing clinics.


JOHNNY BACH
The architect of the Bulls Doberman Defense that helped the Bulls win three titles between 1991 and 1993. Bach has one of the deepest and most varied careers in basketball. He played for the Boston Celtics in 1948 and was a player in the Eastern League when it was essentially a second pro league as the NBA had just 10 teams. He became one of the youngest collegiate head coaches when he took over Fordham at age 28 after decorated combat in the South Pacific in World War II. He won almost 400 games with Fordham and Penn State before becoming head coach of the Golden State Warriors while also an assistant with the U.S. Olympic team. He was an assistant with the Bulls, Hornets, Pistons and Wizards.



https://www.nba.com/bulls/news/samsmith/9-bulls-hall-fame-case

[WarriorDad]

Basketball Reference does not even list Toni Kukoc as one of the 250 most likely people to be inducted into the HOF. Their list includes players who they have as having a 1.19% chance of making it to the HOF. It includes players like Michael Finley and Derek Fischer.

Considering him a bit player might be “koo koo” but so is considering him a HOF teammate of MJ’s because he is in the FIBA HOF. The guy was far worse for the Bulls than Love and Kyrie were for the Cavs and to glorify Kukoc as a HOFer while dismissing Kyrie’s and Love’s chances of being HOFers is beyond absurd.

And what’s worse is saying if LBJ got to play alongside “3” (it’s 2, but whatever) HOFers he’d also be 6-0 in Finals when LBJ did get to play alongside 3 (legitimate) HOFers and went 2-2 in NBA Finals next to them.

Koo koo indeed.

Your same reference has Rajon Rondo with a better chance than Kyrie Irving. 

Secondly, you are wrong.  Your 250 list already includes people that made the Hall of Fame.  So it's not a list of potential 250 candidates, you read it wrong.  Kareem and Jordan are #1 and #2 on the list, they are already in the Hall as are many others.  Derek Fischer does come in at 1.91%, but that list is not 250 players that could make the Hall of Fame when many already have.
 In fact, a number of players already did, but that model didn't have them at 100% despite them making it.  https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob.html

What you should have said he is actually on the list of potential candidates, but instead of 250 it is 210, it can be found here, you were just in the wrong spot apparently. 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/hof.fcgi