NBA '17

[Silkk the Shaka]

If I cared enough to put thought into it maybe.  But I'm with Pakuni on this.  It's a silly theory.

Got it. So you can't. Because there isn't one.

[GGGG]

Got it. So you can't. Because there isn't one.

OK dude.  Plant that flag if you want.  It's still a silly and stupid theory.

[Pakuni]

I see this mistake very often. There is no NBA Hall of Fame.

Kukoc will be in the HOF for the same reasons that Manu Ginobli will be in it. Their careers spanned Foreign leagues, International play, and the Olympics as well as the NBA.

Arvidas Sabonis averaged 12 pts and 7 rebounds in the NBA and was easily elected.

Sabonis for a time was one the best basketball players in the world. No one would ever suggest that about Kukoc.
If Ginobli gets in the HOF, it will be because of his NBA career, not international play.

Saying Kukoc is a hall of fame player may one day be technically correct, but also terribly misleading.

[Silkk the Shaka]

OK dude.  Plant that flag if you want.  It's still a silly and stupid theory.

OK I'll take that as a given then. What's the alternative? That he's not the greatest player of all time?

[Pakuni]

Okay so every time he loses, it's "his teammates suck, I feel so bad for the guy, he'd have 9 championships by now if he had any dang help" but I never hear "wow, he had the most 'help' anyone has ever had in the 2011 finals but he couldn't bring home the bacon." Why did that happen? Why was he passively standing in a corner on offense and playing lax D in crucial close losses? Is he not the indisputable greatest player of all time?

Are you kidding? LeBron was evisceracted for his performance in the 2011 Finals.
Look, no matter how much you want to defend it, your theory is bad.

[Jockey]

Sabonis for a time was one the best basketball players in the world. No one would ever suggest that about Kukoc.
If Ginobli gets in the HOF, it will be because of his NBA career, not international play.

Saying Kukoc is a hall of fame player may one day be technically correct, but also terribly misleading.

You are right about Sabonis. I didn't mean to imply that Kukoc or Ginobli were in his class.

But if Ginobli gets in, it will be because of his international play. His NBA numbers won't do it. Making 2 all-star teams and 2 3rd team All-NBA doesn't cut it for the HOF.

2× NBA All-Star (2005, 2011)
2× All-NBA Third Team (2008, 2011)
NBA Sixth Man of the Year (2008)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (2003)
EuroLeague champion (2001)
EuroLeague Finals MVP (2001)
2× EuroLeague Finals Top Scorer (2001, 2002)
All-EuroLeague First Team (2002)
Italian Cup MVP (2002)
2× Italian League MVP (2001, 2002)
2× Olimpia de Oro (2003, 2004)
Diamond Konex Award (2010)
50 Greatest EuroLeague Contributors (2008)
FIBA AmeriCup MVP (2001)


Here is what Kukoc accomplished. Again, the NBA numbers don't add up to the HOF - a step below Ginobli, as well. Taken in tandem with his Euro numbers, though, there is a very good chance.

NBA Sixth Man of the Year (1996)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (1994)
FIBA World Cup MVP (1990)
FIBA EuroBasket MVP (1991)
FIBA's 50 Greatest Players (1991)
5× Euroscar Player of the Year (1990, 1991, 1994, 1996, 1998)
4× Mister Europa Player of the Year (1990–1992, 1996)
3× EuroLeague champion (1989–1991)
3× EuroLeague Final Four MVP (1990, 1991, 1993)
EuroLeague Finals Top Scorer (1990)
FIBA European Selection (1991)
50 Greatest EuroLeague Contributors (2008)
Italian League champion (1992)
Italian Cup winner (1993)
4× Yugoslav League champion (1988–1991)
2× Yugoslav Cup winner (1990, 1991)
3× Croatian Sportsman of the Year (1989–1991)
Franjo Bučar State Award for Sport (1992)
FIBA Under-19 World Cup MVP (1987)

[GGGG]

OK I'll take that as a given then. What's the alternative? That he's not the greatest player of all time?

I never said he was. 

[MerrittsMustache]

Not ridiculous at all. I've never seen a player so concerned with how his legacy is perceived while he's actively playing. I truly believe he sucked in the 2011 finals when he saw Wade seizing control because he was panicked that he'd be perceived/written about as a Scottie that needed a guy like Wade to carry him to a championship. Name a healthy superstar in his prime that played worse than LeBron did in the 2011 finals. You won't find one.

That's taking it a bit too far.

[wadesworld]

I see this mistake very often. There is no NBA Hall of Fame.

Kukoc will be in the HOF for the same reasons that Manu Ginobli will be in it. Their careers spanned Foreign leagues, International play, and the Olympics as well as the NBA.

Arvidas Sabonis averaged 12 pts and 7 rebounds in the NBA and was easily elected.

Toni Kukoc is in the FIBA HOF, which is what "WarriorDad" was referring to when he was calling Toni Kukoc a HOFer.  Which is beyond laughable when discussing NBA players' careers.

Toni Kukoc will never be in the Naismith HOF.

But people will go so far so far as to make themselves look foolish in order to avoid having to answer to reality.  LBJ had 3 sure fire HOFers playing next to him in Miami and did not win every Title he played in with the Heat.  But "WarriorDad" thinks that MJ got to play with "three" HOFers in Chicago because Toni Kukoc is in the FIBA HOF, so LBJ obviously would've been 6-0 if he had 3 HOF players next to him (again, ignore the fact that he did have 3 HOF players next to him and wasn't X-0).  Hysterical.

But sure, Alexander Bolov, Sergei Bolov, Jean-Jacques Conceicao, Krešimir Ćosić, Teófilo Cruz, etc. etc. etc. are all Hall of Fame basketball players but Larry Foust, Jack Sikma, Tim Hardaway, Larry Costello, Maurice Cheeks, Sidney Moncrief, etc. are not HOF basketball players.

Absolutely hilarious stuff.

[GGGG]

Kukoc was never an all star and Manu was only an All Star twice. It will be an uphill battle for either of them.

[Jockey]

Kukoc was never an all star and Manu was only an All Star twice. It will be an uphill battle for either of them.

But is is the Basketball Hall of Fame - not the NBA Hall of Fame.

If I had to bet, I'd say Ginobli - yes and Kukoc - no although I think he has a good chance.

[GGGG]

But is is the Basketball Hall of Fame - not the NBA Hall of Fame.

If I had to bet, I'd say Ginobli - yes and Kukoc - no although I think he has a good chance.

But the reality is that unless you have made a significant impact on basketball here, you aren't getting in based on your European accomplishments.  Unless you are someone like Sabonis who was universally acknowledged to be an all time great.

[Jockey]

But the reality is that unless you have made a significant impact on basketball here, you aren't getting in based on your European accomplishments.  Unless you are someone like Sabonis who was universally acknowledged to be an all time great.

You are correct about how this has always been. But we have never had the influx of foreign players like we do now.

Foreign players used to be like Olajuwon or Schrempf who came here to play college ball. After the Dream Team, everyone wanted to play here in the NBA. Kukoc was one of the first big names to come from Europe so he has had an influence on the NBA above just his numbers on the court.

[GGGG]

Now this is quite the story.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/5/29/17406750/bryan-colangelo-philadelphia-76ers-twitter-joel-embiid-anonymous-markelle-fultz

[wadesworld]

Now this is quite the story.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/5/29/17406750/bryan-colangelo-philadelphia-76ers-twitter-joel-embiid-anonymous-markelle-fultz

All part of The Process.

[WarriorDad]

You're kidding, right? Never averaged 20 ppg, never made an all-star team, career averages of 11.6/4.2/3.7, he has zero shot of making the NBA HOF. Even if you only look at the time he spent in Chicago when he was in his prime (age 25-31) he averaged 14.1/4.8/4.2. Decent numbers, but not close to HOF numbers.

No, I'm not kidding.

Neither is long time journalist Sam Smith  https://www.nba.com/bulls/news/samsmith/9-bulls-hall-fame-case

Neither is hall of famer Scottie Pippen.  https://www.facebook.com/scottiepippen/photos/a.115850581799440.18470.112743018776863/907444219306735/?type=1&theater

And others. 

https://www.thesportster.com/basketball/7-players-who-dont-belong-in-the-nba-hall-of-fame-and-8-who-do/

Shaq has an opinion on who was ultimately a better player, Pippen or Kukoc.  https://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/shaq-calls-scottie-pippen-a-bum-says-toni-kukoc-was-better/



He sacrificed numbers for his team, to win.  Spent 8 years playing in Europe.  Fortunately FIBA recognized this and inducted him.

[GGGG]

Shaq?

Dude is funny but him and Pippen have been going at it for years.  Anyone who thinks that Kukoc is better that Pippen should automatically be placed in an asylum and no longer allowed to express their views on anything.

[Lennys Tap]

Shaq?

Dude is funny but him and Pippen have been going at it for years.  Anyone who thinks that Kukoc is better that Pippen should automatically be placed in an asylum and no longer allowed to express their views on anything.

+1. Shaq also says (in the article cited by Chico) that Steve Kerr and Ron Harper meant more to the Bulls than Pippen. I love Shaq but he pulling our leg here. Toni Kucoc is like Hideki Matsui. They belong in the Hall of Fame of Europe/Japan, but here? No way.

[DegenerateDish]

I forgot where I read it recently, but if Shaq was 20 years old, and coming into the NBA today, his career would be drastically different, and probably no where near as valuable as he was when he came into the league. He'd obviously have value as a rim protector and rebounder, but tough to imagine him being the focal point of an offense in today's NBA. For as much as Shaq would get intentionally fouled to go to the line during his career, the analytics today would keep him off the floor for most tight late game situations.

[Pakuni]

+1. Shaq also says (in the article cited by Chico) that Steve Kerr and Ron Harper meant more to the Bulls than Pippen. I love Shaq but he pulling our leg here. Toni Kucoc is like Hideki Matsui. They belong in the Hall of Fame of Europe/Japan, but here? No way.

Agreed.
The person who started this clearly wanted to argue that Jordan played with three NBA-caliber HOF players (Pippen, Rodman and Kukoc), which is utter nonsense. Toni could get into the hall based on his international credentials, but he was nowhere close to a HOF NBA player.

[Jockey]

+1. Shaq also says (in the article cited by Chico) that Steve Kerr and Ron Harper meant more to the Bulls than Pippen. I love Shaq but he pulling our leg here. Toni Kucoc is like Hideki Matsui. They belong in the Hall of Fame of Europe/Japan, but here? No way.

Why wouldn't you say the same about Sabonis?  Too lazy to look, but I'd bet Kukoc had similar or better numbers. And having seen both guys many times, Toni was the better NBA player.

[Pakuni]

Why wouldn't you say the same about Sabonis?  Too lazy to look, but I'd been Kukoc had similar or better numbers. And having seen both guys many times, Toni was the better NBA player.

Sabonis was 31-year-old shadow of his former self by the time he reached the NBA. Kukoc was 25 and in his prime. Simply not comparable.
That said, yeah, Sabonis is in the hall of fame based on his European career, not anything he did in the NBA.

[MerrittsMustache]

Why wouldn't you say the same about Sabonis?  Too lazy to look, but I'd been Kukoc had similar or better numbers. And having seen both guys many times, Toni was the better NBA player.

Sabonis averaged 12-7-2 with shooting splits of .500/.328/.786 (eFG .517) and a career PER of 21.2 over 7 seasons (age 31-38).

Kukoc averaged about 12-4-4 with shooting splits of .447/.335/.729 (eFG .492) and a career PER of 17.3 over 13 seasons (age 25-37).

[Jockey]

Sabonis was 31-year-old shadow of his former self by the time he reached the NBA. Kukoc was 25 and in his prime. Simply not comparable.
That said, yeah, Sabonis is in the hall of fame based on his European career, not anything he did in the NBA.

Exactly. That was my point.

And I believe Ginobli, and possibly Kukoc will get in for the same reason.

[forgetful]

Exactly. That was my point.

And I believe Ginobli, and possibly Kukoc will get in for the same reason.

Why would Kukoc get in any more.  He has been eligible for a long time, and hasn't even sniffed getting in.  Every year, more qualified people become eligible. 

He doesn't have the stats, didn't have the impact, and has no reason making the HOF.