NBA '17

[wadesworld]

And don’t forget it’s quite possible the Cavs would have beat them in that first match up if Love and Irving hadn’t been injured.

Just as possible as if the Warriors win the next year if they don’t lose Bogut.

[StillAWarrior]

Just as possible as if the Warriors win the next year if they don’t lose Bogut.

Absolutely.

Although losing Bogut isn’t the same as losing two sure-fire HOFers. 

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Because if you are going to argue they only got to the Finals because the east was trash, you can't ignore the fact they also beat Golden State regardless of what was in the east.

James having the flexibility of actually having players that can hit shots and two HOFers next to him would have gone 6-0.

You're struggling with comprehension.  I never said the East was trash each and every year LBJ went to the finals.  I said the East was trash THIS year.

Disagree.  It's possible and maybe even likely but when you say it's an "absolute certainty" you're just wrong.  It's like if I said if you replaced James with Jordan on each of his finals teams that it's an absolute certainty they would have won more than 3.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Care to share your source that is predicting probability of making the hall of fame?  We know Jordan played with three Hall of Famers in Pippen, Rodman and Kukoc.  James played with one sure fire HOFer, in Wade but zero sure fired HOFers on the Cavs.

I'm not much of a betting man, but more importantly I would rather ask a straight forward question.  Do you feel the Cavs talent around James that made the Finals is equal to, worse, or better than the Bull talent that MJ had?

Kukoc is in the Hall of Fame?  You're counting the FIBA Hall of Fame?

[Goose]

MU82

Jordan did not quit during his Bull tenure. He served his suspension playing baseball. That said, the best I ever saw play, and I have seen every great over the last 45 years.

[WarriorDad]

Kukoc is in the Hall of Fame?  You're counting the FIBA Hall of Fame?

Yes, the same Hall of Fame Jordan is also a member of.  Kukoc is a candidate for the NBA HOF, too.  Unfortunately he played his first 8 years of professional ball overseas, and that will hurt him for his candidacy in the NBA.

[WarriorDad]

I already told you. Basketball Reference is my source.

You’re changing your argument. You stated LBJ has played with 0 Hall of Famers in his time in Cleveland. You’re wrong, and now you’re changing your argument. No problem if you aren’t a betting man. But I’ll guarantee at least 1 of Love/Irving will be in the HOF, and I’d put my money on both.

Appreciate the source.  A few other sources aren't so high on either of them.  Ultimately time will tell. 

How can you say I am wrong when on one out there of any repute is saying these guys are slam dunks for the HOF?  I might be wrong, but we don't know this.

I'm not changing the argument, can you answer the question?  Who had better supporting casts to play with? The NBA is not a 1 on 1 league, there are still 12 men per team and five starters.  MJ had an outstanding cast, James with the CAVS has not. 

EDIT:

Teammates

Michael Jordan
All NBA
- Scottie Pippen ('92) 2nd
- Scottie Pippen ('93) 3rd
- Scottie Pippen ('95) 1st
- Scottie Pippen ('96) 1st
- Scottie Pippen ('97) 2nd
- Scottie Pippen ('98) 3rd
  All Defensive
- Scottie Pippen ('92) 2nd
- Scottie Pippen ('93) 1st
- Horace Grant ('93) 2nd
- Scottie Pippen ('95) 1st
- Scottie Pippen ('96) 1st
- Dennis Rodman ('96) 1st
- Scottie Pippen ('97) 1st
- Scottie Pippen ('98) 1st


LeBron James
All NBA
- Dwyane Wade ('11) 2nd
- Dwyane Wade ('12) 3rd
- Dwyane Wade ('13) 2nd
- Kyrie Irving ('15) 2nd

  All Defensive
- Anderson Varejao ('10) 2nd

[Jockey]

So you’re going to ignore that James was 2-2 when he was in Miami with Wade, Bosh, and Allen? Okay I guess.

Wade, Bosh, Allen. All 3 of them have between a 99% and 100% chance to be elected to the HOF. He was 2-2. But he for sure would’ve been 6-0 with the worse HOFers Jordan played with. Sure I’ll buy it.

At least one of the two losses was against a better team than Jordan ever had to face in the Finals.

[wadesworld]

Appreciate the source.  A few other sources aren't so high on either of them.  Ultimately time will tell. 

How can you say I am wrong when on one out there of any repute is saying these guys are slam dunks for the HOF?  I might be wrong, but we don't know this.

I'm not changing the argument, can you answer the question?  Who had better supporting casts to play with? The NBA is not a 1 on 1 league, there are still 12 men per team and five starters.  MJ had an outstanding cast, James with the CAVS has not.

Right.  Time will tell.  So sure right now you're correct, "I said James as a Cav.  No HOFers.  None."  You're right.

LeBron James is not a Hall of Famer right now either.  MJ is.

So let me just clarify something here, when you say that if MJ had 2 Hall of Famers (okay 3, Toni Kucoc is in a basketball HOF somewhere, lol.  Can we count their college HOFs?  I bet every Cav member is in their high school HOF, so he's playing with 12 HOFers I guess) so if you flop LBJ in for MJ on those Bulls teams they definitely go 6-0 because in his time with the Cavs he's had less support and he's gone 1-3 in NBA Finals with the Cavs?  So his added supporting cast he would be getting with the Bulls means there's no chance he loses any of those Titles MJ won because LBJ couldn't possibly lose any NBA Titles when he'd have 3 (lol) HOFers around him?  And we need to ignore the fact that, well, he did, indeed, have 3 HOFers around him in Miami and went 2-2 in NBA Finals because...?  Oh that's right, because Wade, Allen, and Bosh are not in the HOF.  They aren't HOFers.  Right... 

[wadesworld]

At least one of the two losses was against a better team than Jordan ever had to face in the Finals.

If you add MJ to the Heat and take LBJ off that team the Heat sweep and I'm not sure a single game is even close in that series.  The Mavs' second best player in that NBA Finals was Jason Freaking Terry.  They were not a good basketball team, and they were playing a team with 3 of the top 10 players in the NBA at the time.  Awful.

The 1998 Jazz had the same record as the 2014 Spurs did.  The 1997 Jazz had a better record than the 2014 Spurs.  The 1996 SuperSonics had a better record than the 2014 Spurs.  The 1993 Suns had the same record as the 2014 Spurs did.  The 1992 Blazers had a worse record than the 2014 Spurs did.  The 1991 Lakers had a worse record than the 2014 Spurs did.

Give me a 26 year old Shawn Kemp, 27 year old Gary Payton, 33 year old Detlef Schrempf, 29 year old Hersey Hawkins, and 34 year old Sam Perkins over a 31 year old Tony Parker, 37 year old Tim Duncan, 22 year old Kawhi Leonard, 36 year old Manu Ginobli, and 27 year old Marco Belinelli.

[jesmu84]

Appreciate the source.  A few other sources aren't so high on either of them.  Ultimately time will tell. 

How can you say I am wrong when on one out there of any repute is saying these guys are slam dunks for the HOF?  I might be wrong, but we don't know this.

I'm not changing the argument, can you answer the question?  Who had better supporting casts to play with? The NBA is not a 1 on 1 league, there are still 12 men per team and five starters.  MJ had an outstanding cast, James with the CAVS has not. 

EDIT:

Teammates

Michael Jordan
All NBA
- Scottie Pippen ('92) 2nd
- Scottie Pippen ('93) 3rd
- Scottie Pippen ('95) 1st
- Scottie Pippen ('96) 1st
- Scottie Pippen ('97) 2nd
- Scottie Pippen ('98) 3rd
  All Defensive
- Scottie Pippen ('92) 2nd
- Scottie Pippen ('93) 1st
- Horace Grant ('93) 2nd
- Scottie Pippen ('95) 1st
- Scottie Pippen ('96) 1st
- Dennis Rodman ('96) 1st
- Scottie Pippen ('97) 1st
- Scottie Pippen ('98) 1st


LeBron James
All NBA
- Dwyane Wade ('11) 2nd
- Dwyane Wade ('12) 3rd
- Dwyane Wade ('13) 2nd
- Kyrie Irving ('15) 2nd

  All Defensive
- Anderson Varejao ('10) 2nd

Doesn't this just indicate that MJ made his teammates better vs LBJ?

[jesmu84]

Does the impact of how the games are reffed and changes in NBA rules weigh in to anyone's decision on LBJ vs MJ?

[DegenerateDish]

I was high on him on draft night and upset when the Bulls traded him, but Jordan Bell has been awful in this series.

[Jockey]

Does the impact of how the games are reffed and changes in NBA rules weigh in to anyone's decision on LBJ vs MJ?

Funny, I was gonna post on this exact thing earlier. Rule changes helped both guys - offenses in general.

Compare that to specific rule changes meant to control Wilt and Kareem.

[tower912]

Officiating is different.  The number of 3 point shooters on the floor at any given time, as well as their efficiency is another huge difference from 20-25 years ago.   Protecting the paint, physical play, and help defense are dramatically different today.  You can't help off of the corner shooter.   You can't have a physical, slow big who clogs the paint.  Speed, shooting, ability to switch on defense and guard multiple positions.

[DegenerateDish]

Durant has about as much interest in getting after a loose ball or rebound tonight as I do in getting up for work tomorrow.

[rocket surgeon]

trying to figure which is more obnoxious-the vikings gjallarhorn(yes that's what they call that piece of...) or the rockets incessant "let's go rockets" organ sound every time they have the ball, or so it seems

[wadesworld]

For two teams as talented and well constructed as these two are, this is some absolutely garbage basketball. So many missed shots, bad decisions/turnovers, mishandled balls, missed defensive assignments, etc.

And I think the reffing has been awful from the jump, both ways.

PS can the Warriors please make Harden finish with his right, just once?

[wadesworld]

And why would Anderson see a single second in this game? Awful. If the Warriors close this out that’s the reason. He has no business playing in this series. Total mismatch.

Also, why is every team in this Playoffs so willing to give the mismatch up on switches? I get it with Klay, KD, and Curry because those guys will just pull up and make you pay if you give them space. But when Harden is dribbling between his leg 68 times 35 feet from the basket while Ariza sets a screen on the stationary defender, why are the Warriors switching? And it’s been every team in every series this Playoffs. Sometimes the ballhandler is attacking and it’s the only option. But so many times the defender has time to fight through the screen and just gives up the switch.

My only thought is that a lot of times the offense just reverses the direction and gets another screen so maybe it’s a scout thing and they’d rather have the ball handler with the mismatch going in one direction over another. I don’t know otherwise.

[GGGG]

If you add MJ to the Heat and take LBJ off that team the Heat sweep and I'm not sure a single game is even close in that series.  The Mavs' second best player in that NBA Finals was Jason Freaking Terry.  They were not a good basketball team, and they were playing a team with 3 of the top 10 players in the NBA at the time.  Awful.

The 1998 Jazz had the same record as the 2014 Spurs did.  The 1997 Jazz had a better record than the 2014 Spurs.  The 1996 SuperSonics had a better record than the 2014 Spurs.  The 1993 Suns had the same record as the 2014 Spurs did.  The 1992 Blazers had a worse record than the 2014 Spurs did.  The 1991 Lakers had a worse record than the 2014 Spurs did.

Give me a 26 year old Shawn Kemp, 27 year old Gary Payton, 33 year old Detlef Schrempf, 29 year old Hersey Hawkins, and 34 year old Sam Perkins over a 31 year old Tony Parker, 37 year old Tim Duncan, 22 year old Kawhi Leonard, 36 year old Manu Ginobli, and 27 year old Marco Belinelli.

The West was nowhere near as good as the East during Jordan’s tenure. You can’t just go by the record.

[wadesworld]

The West was nowhere near as good as the East during Jordan’s tenure. You can’t just go by the record.

Agreed it’s not as simple as just record, but no matter what league you are in if you’re 64-18 you’re a pretty dang good team. The Spurs were at the end of their dynasty that year. They were obviously as well coached and disciplined as they come, and they obviously had talent. But they were old. And the Sonics and Jazz teams the Bulls were beating were very good teams.

[WarriorDad]

Right.  Time will tell.  So sure right now you're correct, "I said James as a Cav.  No HOFers.  None."  You're right.

LeBron James is not a Hall of Famer right now either.  MJ is.

So let me just clarify something here, when you say that if MJ had 2 Hall of Famers (okay 3, Toni Kucoc is in a basketball HOF somewhere, lol.  Can we count their college HOFs?  I bet every Cav member is in their high school HOF, so he's playing with 12 HOFers I guess) so if you flop LBJ in for MJ on those Bulls teams they definitely go 6-0 because in his time with the Cavs he's had less support and he's gone 1-3 in NBA Finals with the Cavs?  So his added supporting cast he would be getting with the Bulls means there's no chance he loses any of those Titles MJ won because LBJ couldn't possibly lose any NBA Titles when he'd have 3 (lol) HOFers around him?  And we need to ignore the fact that, well, he did, indeed, have 3 HOFers around him in Miami and went 2-2 in NBA Finals because...?  Oh that's right, because Wade, Allen, and Bosh are not in the HOF.  They aren't HOFers.  Right... 

Honestly do not understand the games you are playing.  Everyone on the planet knows LBJ is a HOFer.  Everyone.   Love, might make it.  Irving, might make it.  Wade, definitely will make it.  Bosh should and likely will make it.  You are taking certainties like LBJ and saying with equal certainty that Irving and Love make it. That is wrong.

Now you are comparing a FIBA HOF induction with a high school HOF?  These games might work on the youngsters, not with me.

[WarriorDad]

Doesn't this just indicate that MJ made his teammates better vs LBJ?

Good point and it may.  It may also indicate that those players had more raw talent and were better players, too. 

Pippen was very good when MJ didn't play during his baseball stine, so that kind of neutralizes that argument in my opinion.  Same goes for Grant, who averaged 15 a game when MJ was gone.  Armstrong also avg'd 15 with MJ's absence, Kukoc around 13.   Those were good players with our without him.

[WarriorDad]

Agreed it’s not as simple as just record, but no matter what league you are in if you’re 64-18 you’re a pretty dang good team. The Spurs were at the end of their dynasty that year. They were obviously as well coached and disciplined as they come, and they obviously had talent. But they were old. And the Sonics and Jazz teams the Bulls were beating were very good teams.

Three of our championships came against teams in the west ranked as the worst ever to be in the NBA finals.   The east was tough, but the west was not up to par.

https://www.thesportster.com/basketball/top-15-worst-teams-to-appear-in-the-nba-finals/

We appear on this list a few times, too.    https://www.cheatsheet.com/sports/worst-nba-champions-in-league-history.html/?a=viewall

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Good unnatural carnal knowledgein lord, reading this crap is why Skip, Whitlock, and Stephen A make so much money.

Best post in this thread