NBA '17

[GGGG]

Why couldn't MJ get to more than 6 finals?

Mostly because it took the Bulls awhile to build a decent team around him and then had to overcome the Pistons.  He was 27 before he first got to the Finals.

And of course he took two years off as well.

Look there is no doubt the East was significant better then.  The Knicks teams the Bulls had to get through were arguably the second best teams in the League.  And those Pistons teams weren't slouches either.

[wadesworld]

Why couldn't MJ get to more than 6 finals?

Because the best player he was facing in the entire path to the Finals wasn't DeMar DeRozan.

[WarriorDad]

For the Jordan camp - I believe the East was a tougher conference during Jordan's years. Pistons, Knicks, Supersonics, etc.

Also, someone mentioned LBJ not having played with any HOFers... isn't Wade a HOF?

I said James as a Cav.  No HOFers.  None. 

[wadesworld]

I said James as a Cav.  No HOFers.  None.

If you ignore the 2 that will likely be HOFers you're right, none.

[WarriorDad]

And the bolded is an example of Lebron supporters going delusional to Chuck Norrisfy Lebron.  JR Smith, Kyle Korver and George Hill are all substantially better than Aaron Mckie.  All those 3 established themselves as good players on multiple teams.  Hell, Jordan Clarkson is statistically better than McKie.  Jeff Green is even comparable.

37 year old Kyle Korver, a man that isn't even a double digit avg scorer and is the epitome of avg, not good.  Was an all star one year in his entire career.  JR Smith, well he was the CBA scoring champion and never an all-star in the NBA.  George Hill, never a NBA all star.

Those three guys, one all-star season COMBINED, nothing note worthy.  Aaron McKie at least was the NBA 6th man of the year. 

Substantially better than Aaron McKie?  How?  None of these four guys are very good, the difference is that Lebron has to carry three of their jock straps. 

[WarriorDad]

Considering Kyrie Irving just turned 26 years old and these probabilities go up year by year, yes, I think it's pretty safe to say that as long as Kyrie doesn't have some kind of career threatening injury before he's out of his prime he will be a Hall of Famer.  And yes Love at nearly 70% is a good bet.  He has the 14th highest HOF probability of any active player, and 11 of the players ahead of him are at 95% or above.  I'm fairly confident that there will be more than 3 players beyond the 11 that are virtual locks that get into the HOF.

But if we want to play it by who is currently literally in the HOF then sure, Rodman and Pippen are Hall of Famers and Love and Kyrie are not.  You know who else isn't?  LeBron.  So I guess the debate is over.  MJ is a Hall of Famer, LeBron isn't, if that's how we want to play that argument.

I'm sure MJ's Bulls in the early years would've had a horrific time trying to navigate through the gauntlet that is a Pacers team that isn't very good, a Raptors team full of mental midgets, and a Celtics team without their two best players.

LBJ is 3-4 in NBA Finals with 2+ (given that he had more than 2 future HOFers with him on the Heat...) HOFers playing alongside him.  MJ was 6-0.  But sure, let's give LBJ extra points for getting through the East more often than MJ did.  Because LBJ's East is close to as good as it was when MJ was going through it, I guess.

PS Have you ever heard of "The Jordan Rules?"

There is no certainty Love or Irving make the HOF.  There is absolute certainty Lebron does.  There was absolute certainty Pippen and Rodman would, and did.

Jordan on this Cavs team gets knocked out at least one series ago.  Lebron on those Bulls teams also goes 6-0.  That's the difference.

Bulls had Kukoc, Kerr, Harper, even Longley is better than the stiffs on the Cavs.  Horace Grant, BJ, all better players than what the Cavs have.  It isn't just Rodman and Pippen, they were much deeper than anything the Cavs have. 

[Vander Blue Man Group]

There is no certainty Love or Irving make the HOF.  There is absolute certainty Lebron does.  There was absolute certainty Pippen and Rodman would, and did.

Jordan on this Cavs team gets knocked out at least one series ago.  Lebron on those Bulls teams also goes 6-0.  That's the difference.

Bulls had Kukoc, Kerr, Harper, even Longley is better than the stiffs on the Cavs.  Horace Grant, BJ, all better players than what the Cavs have.  It isn't just Rodman and Pippen, they were much deeper than anything the Cavs have.

Just no.  The three teams the Cavs had to face were garbage compared to what Jordan had to go through in the East.

You also can't definitively state that LeBron would have gone 6-0 on those Bulls teams. 

[WarriorDad]

LeBron has 18 NBA Finals wins in 8 NBA Finals appearances so far.  I'll give him 19 NBA Finals wins in 9 NBA Finals appearances since a gentleman's sweep in this year's NBA Finals might be the most predictable result in any sporting event ever.

MJ had 24 NBA Finals wins in 6 NBA Finals appearances.

You are admitting in your own response how much more dominant the west is, yet even Lebron found a way to beat the invincible Warriors one year.

I didn't realize the NBA was 1 player against 1 player. 

Let's compare rosters and NBA finals opponents. 

Pippen (NBA HOF), Rodman (NBA HOF), Kukoc (FIBA HOF, spent first 8 years of career internationally), Longley, Armstrong, Harper, Kerr, Grant, Paxson, King, Caffey.  Even the scrubs were good scrubs.

James' Cavs teams there is no comparison how lacking in talent compared to what Michael had. 

[WarriorDad]

If you ignore the 2 that will likely be HOFers you're right, none.

37% is likely?

[WarriorDad]

Just no.  The three teams the Cavs had to face were garbage compared to what Jordan had to go through in the East.

You also can't definitively state that LeBron would have gone 6-0 on those Bulls teams.

With the other options Lebron would have on those teams, absolute certainty. This is the same Lebron that beat the Golden State Warriors a few years ago.  Are you going to tell me the Warriors were trash? 

[MU82]

LeBron has 18 NBA Finals wins in 8 NBA Finals appearances so far.  I'll give him 19 NBA Finals wins in 9 NBA Finals appearances since a gentleman's sweep in this year's NBA Finals might be the most predictable result in any sporting event ever.

MJ had 24 NBA Finals wins in 6 NBA Finals appearances.

This is a fair argument, and the best in favor of Michael. The man won 6 titles. Period. He was 6-for-6. And he never even faced a Game 7 in any of the Finals. Those are the facts and only a fool would argue against them.

He also faced difficult competition in each of his Finals - Drexler & Co. in Portland; Charles & Co. in Phx; Magic & Co. in LA; Kemp & Payton in Seattle; Stockton & Malone in Utah (x2). And that doesn't even count all the good Knicks, Pacers, Heat and Magic teams he had to beat in the East to get to the Finals.

That's top-notch competition, and MJ beat them all. But of course, he did beat them with the help of arguably the greatest "sidekick" in NBA history, arguably the best pound-for-pound rebounder/defender in NBA history and arguably the greatest coach in NBA history. Those also are facts.

Even with what I just said in my preceding paragraph, Michael deserves all the accolades he gets. And as much as I have made my admiration about LeBron's basketball accomplishments known, I have not once said he was better than Michael. Maybe Son of Chicos has, but I haven't.

But I would forcefully argue against any claim for second-best for anybody not named LeBron. He  is an absolute freak, and a highly accomplished freak at that. And, as I said in another post, he is nowhere near finished. He probably will be the best player in the world for 3-4-5 more years. Another couple of titles, combined with the career numbers he will have, and his case for GOAT will be bolstered considerably.

And although the East has been relatively weak, let's not label the teams LeBron has faced in the Finals as weak. Some pretty intelligent observers have called the Warriors one of the best teams ever. The Spurs were an all-time great team. OKC had three future HoFers (and Lazar!). (Dallas wasn't a great team, though, and LeBron's poor play contributed to the loss.)

wades, I might argue that your extreme disdain for James colors your viewpoint of his basktball accomplishments. Meanwhile, I greatly admire both James and Jordan, and I consider myself pretty damn objective. But you might argue differently about that, and enough of all of this is subjective enough to make the debates fun and legit.

Why couldn't MJ get to more than 6 finals?

A few reasons.

1. Michael quit in his prime to go play baseball. The Bulls were obviously the best team still and almost surely would have returned to the Finals. Heck, they almost got back in '94 without him.

2. The East was strong during Jordan's first several years in the league, first with the Celtics and later with the Pistons. Michael was a famously poor team player, and his teammates/coaches weren't good enough to convince him to be anything but selfish.

3. Michael quit a championship-caliber team again after his second threepeat. Reinsdorf admittedly didn't want to pay the luxury tax, which would have been necessary to keep the championship team together; and Krause, who was incredibly jealous and resentful of Jordan, convinced Reinsdorf that he could quickly rebuild the Bulls into a title team. The Bulls have been losers ever since.

Michael shoulders some of the blame, because he kept saying he'd quit because Jackson wasn't being retained ... but I know for a fact that he would have stayed had Reinsdorf/Krause kept the team together and hired Paxson as Phil's replacement.

So Jordan's first retirement cost him probably 2 Finals appearances (and likely titles), his second retirement cost him a great shot at another couple of appearances (and maybe another title or two), and the combination of his selfish play and his lack of support early in his career cost him too.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

With the other options Lebron would have on those teams, absolute certainty. This is the same Lebron that beat the Golden State Warriors a few years ago.  Are you going to tell me the Warriors were trash?

I said the teams LeBron faced in the East this season were trash compared to the team's Jordan's Bulls had to go through.  I'm not sure how you made the leap in logic that I said the Warriors were trash.

And no, it's not an absolute certainty that those Bulls teams with James instead of MJ would have gone 6-0.  A Pippen/James combo would not have been as effective as a Pippen/Jordan combo. 

And let's not pretend Jordan was just a scorer in the finals. 

And while I am not a James fan I think he's the 2nd best to play the game. 

[MU82]

I said the teams LeBron faced in the East this season were trash compared to the team's Jordan's Bulls had to go through.  I'm not sure how you made the leap in logic that I said the Warriors were trash.

And no, it's not an absolute certainty that those Bulls teams with James instead of MJ would have gone 6-0.  A Pippen/James combo would not have been as effective as a Pippen/Jordan combo. 

And let's not pretend Jordan was just a scorer in the finals. 

And while I am not a James fan I think he's the 2nd best to play the game. 

This was a classic chicos ploy and apparently is favored by Son of Chicos, too.

[wadesworld]

37% is likely?

When you're 26 years old, yes. He's well on his way. It's not that hard to follow.

I'll put some money on this. O/U 0.5 HOFers playing alongside LeBron in his time with Cleveland. Charity of the winner's choice. Name your price, I'm in.

[Jockey]

For the Jordan camp - I believe the East was a tougher conference during Jordan's years. Pistons, Knicks, Supersonics, etc.

Also, someone mentioned LBJ not having played with any HOFers... isn't Wade a HOF?

Bosh probably will be as well.

[Jockey]

Mostly because it took the Bulls awhile to build a decent team around him and then had to overcome the Pistons.  He was 27 before he first got to the Finals.

And of course he took two years off as well.

Look there is no doubt the East was significant better then.  The Knicks teams the Bulls had to get through were arguably the second best teams in the League.  And those Pistons teams weren't slouches either.

I wasn't being serious.

[MU82]

I wasn't being serious.

Dang ... I answered your question seriously too. I must be slipping. Oh well ... gave y'all a good history lesson anyway.

[WarriorDad]

I said the teams LeBron faced in the East this season were trash compared to the team's Jordan's Bulls had to go through.  I'm not sure how you made the leap in logic that I said the Warriors were trash.

And no, it's not an absolute certainty that those Bulls teams with James instead of MJ would have gone 6-0.  A Pippen/James combo would not have been as effective as a Pippen/Jordan combo. 

And let's not pretend Jordan was just a scorer in the finals. 

And while I am not a James fan I think he's the 2nd best to play the game.

Because if you are going to argue they only got to the Finals because the east was trash, you can't ignore the fact they also beat Golden State regardless of what was in the east.

James having the flexibility of actually having players that can hit shots and two HOFers next to him would have gone 6-0. 

[WarriorDad]

When you're 26 years old, yes. He's well on his way. It's not that hard to follow.

I'll put some money on this. O/U 0.5 HOFers playing alongside LeBron in his time with Cleveland. Charity of the winner's choice. Name your price, I'm in.

Care to share your source that is predicting probability of making the hall of fame?  We know Jordan played with three Hall of Famers in Pippen, Rodman and Kukoc.  James played with one sure fire HOFer, in Wade but zero sure fired HOFers on the Cavs.

I'm not much of a betting man, but more importantly I would rather ask a straight forward question.  Do you feel the Cavs talent around James that made the Finals is equal to, worse, or better than the Bull talent that MJ had?

[Jockey]

Dang ... I answered your question seriously too. I must be slipping. Oh well ... gave y'all a good history lesson anyway.

Great post though. Didn't mean to make you work so hard 

[wadesworld]

Because if you are going to argue they only got to the Finals because the east was trash, you can't ignore the fact they also beat Golden State regardless of what was in the east.

James having the flexibility of actually having players that can hit shots and two HOFers next to him would have gone 6-0.

So you're going to ignore that James was 2-2 when he was in Miami with Wade, Bosh, and Allen? Okay I guess.

Wade, Bosh, Allen. All 3 of them have between a 99% and 100% chance to be elected to the HOF. He was 2-2. But he for sure would've been 6-0 with the worse HOFers Jordan played with. Sure I'll buy it.

[wadesworld]

Care to share your source that is predicting probability of making the hall of fame?  We know Jordan played with three Hall of Famers in Pippen, Rodman and Kukoc.  James played with one sure fire HOFer, in Wade but zero sure fired HOFers on the Cavs.

I'm not much of a betting man, but more importantly I would rather ask a straight forward question.  Do you feel the Cavs talent around James that made the Finals is equal to, worse, or better than the Bull talent that MJ had?

I already told you. Basketball Reference is my source.

You're changing your argument. You stated LBJ has played with 0 Hall of Famers in his time in Cleveland. You're wrong, and now you're changing your argument. No problem if you aren't a betting man. But I'll guarantee at least 1 of Love/Irving will be in the HOF, and I'd put my money on both.

[reinko]

Good fuckin lord, reading this crap is why Skip, Whitlock, and Stephen A make so much money.

[StillAWarrior]

You are admitting in your own response how much more dominant the west is, yet even Lebron found a way to beat the invincible Warriors one year.

And don't forget it's quite possible the Cavs would have beat them in that first match up if Love and Irving hadn't been injured.

[StillAWarrior]

This is a fair argument, and the best in favor of Michael. The man won 6 titles. Period. He was 6-for-6. And he never even faced a Game 7 in any of the Finals. Those are the facts and only a fool would argue against them.

He also faced difficult competition in each of his Finals - Drexler & Co. in Portland; Charles & Co. in Phx; Magic & Co. in LA; Kemp & Payton in Seattle; Stockton & Malone in Utah (x2). And that doesn't even count all the good Knicks, Pacers, Heat and Magic teams he had to beat in the East to get to the Finals.

That's top-notch competition, and MJ beat them all. But of course, he did beat them with the help of arguably the greatest "sidekick" in NBA history, arguably the best pound-for-pound rebounder/defender in NBA history and arguably the greatest coach in NBA history. Those also are facts.

Even with what I just said in my preceding paragraph, Michael deserves all the accolades he gets. And as much as I have made my admiration about LeBron's basketball accomplishments known, I have not once said he was better than Michael. Maybe Son of Chicos has, but I haven't.

But I would forcefully argue against any claim for second-best for anybody not named LeBron. He  is an absolute freak, and a highly accomplished freak at that. And, as I said in another post, he is nowhere near finished. He probably will be the best player in the world for 3-4-5 more years. Another couple of titles, combined with the career numbers he will have, and his case for GOAT will be bolstered considerably.

And although the East has been relatively weak, let's not label the teams LeBron has faced in the Finals as weak. Some pretty intelligent observers have called the Warriors one of the best teams ever. The Spurs were an all-time great team. OKC had three future HoFers (and Lazar!). (Dallas wasn't a great team, though, and LeBron's poor play contributed to the loss.)

wades, I might argue that your extreme disdain for James colors your viewpoint of his basktball accomplishments. Meanwhile, I greatly admire both James and Jordan, and I consider myself pretty damn objective. But you might argue differently about that, and enough of all of this is subjective enough to make the debates fun and legit.

A few reasons.

1. Michael quit in his prime to go play baseball. The Bulls were obviously the best team still and almost surely would have returned to the Finals. Heck, they almost got back in '94 without him.

2. The East was strong during Jordan's first several years in the league, first with the Celtics and later with the Pistons. Michael was a famously poor team player, and his teammates/coaches weren't good enough to convince him to be anything but selfish.

3. Michael quit a championship-caliber team again after his second threepeat. Reinsdorf admittedly didn't want to pay the luxury tax, which would have been necessary to keep the championship team together; and Krause, who was incredibly jealous and resentful of Jordan, convinced Reinsdorf that he could quickly rebuild the Bulls into a title team. The Bulls have been losers ever since.

Michael shoulders some of the blame, because he kept saying he'd quit because Jackson wasn't being retained ... but I know for a fact that he would have stayed had Reinsdorf/Krause kept the team together and hired Paxson as Phil's replacement.

So Jordan's first retirement cost him probably 2 Finals appearances (and likely titles), his second retirement cost him a great shot at another couple of appearances (and maybe another title or two), and the combination of his selfish play and his lack of support early in his career cost him too.

Overall, a really good post that articulated a lot of what I feel too.

One thing that I've always felt goes into the "LeBron" column of this debate is how the teams did after they left. Chicago was still a very formidable team during MJ's hiatus. The Cavs and the Heat (and, I fear, next years Cavs) were awful without LBJ.