NBA '17

[Jockey]

I also think Jordan was an elite defender whereas LBJ, while very good, isn't in the Jordan category.

I think Lebron is in the same class defensively - he also has defended all 5 positions at times which MJ couldn't do.

The difference is that Jordan was always great on 'D', whereas LeBron picks and chooses his spots where he becomes an elite defender.

[WarriorDad]

Sultan

Not even close in regards to defense. Couple that with scoring, less turnovers and a lot of hardware at the Jordan house, it still is not close to me. For the record, it took me quite some time to become a Jordan guy, and winning is what did it for me.

I'd like to see Michael have to defend the guys James does.  Michael defended guards, James has had to defend every position. 

Michael had two hall of famers play next to him with the Bulls.  James, with the Cavs, has barely had even an all-star play next to him, and certainly no hall of famers. 

Russell won 11 titles, if that's what matters.

[WarriorDad]

Excellent points, Sultan.

Look at LeBron's first Finals team, for example. That Iverson team was better.

Stop with the politics, your signature.  Why?  There are political boards all over the internet. Why bring it here?

[wadesworld]

I'd like to see Michael have to defend the guys James does.  Michael defended guards, James has had to defend every position. 

Michael had two hall of famers play next to him with the Bulls.  James, with the Cavs, has barely had even an all-star play next to him, and certainly no hall of famers. 

Russell won 11 titles, if that's what matters.

Have you been paying attention to who LBJ has been guarding this postseason? While Victor Oladipo was nearly single handedly carrying the Pacers to a victory over the Cavs LBJ was hiding on Bojan Bogdonovic. Against the Raptors he wasn’t guarding DeRozan or Lowry, he was guarding rookie OG Anunoby. This past series I can’t recall him ever guarding Jayson Tatum or Al Horford, he was guarding Marcus Morris or Jaylen Brown.

Maybe I’m wrong but my guess is Jordan steps up and guards Oladipo, DeRozan, and Tatum if he ever had this easy of a road through the East.

Basketball Reference has Kevin Love at a 68% chance to be a Hall of Famer. And if Kyrie stays healthy I’d guess he’ll have a very good shot at it someday too (currently at 37%, 18th best chance of any active player). So basically this is his second Finals appearance without at least two potential Hall of Famers next to him.

[forgetful]

That team had Mutombo as the NBA defensive player of the year and All-NBA second team and the sixth man of the year in Aaron McKie.

It wasn't a great team by any means, but it had more talent than you are portraying.

Where was the talent?  You are seriously going to use Aaron McKie as a "good player".  He was 6th man of the year backing up for George f'n Lynch. 

That team sucked.  They had Iverson, a 34 year old Mutombo and absolutely nothing.  Getting to the playoffs with that squad (only had Mutombo for 26 games) was nothing short of amazing.

Lebron's team had Big Z, who was not too far removed from an All-star appearance, and at the top of his game.  They had Larry Hughes, who although not a star, was a better player than anyone on the 76ers not named AI or Mutombo.  Same with Drew Gooden.  Not a star, but better than any option on the 76ers. 

Forgetful has repeatedly minimized LBJ on this board so I just think this is an extension of that.

My problem with Lebron is that people exaggerate his accomplishments with things like "leading the worst team ever to the finals".  I'm not minimizing what LBJ has done.  I'm putting it into a realistic perspective. 

His squad this year was favored to win every series except for Toronto.  Same in 06-07 (favored to win every series).  If the Celtics had won, would you be talking about how Tatum is the greatest ever for leading the worst team ever to the NBA finals?...No, that story line is just to Chuck Norrisfy Lebron.

They go out of their way (claiming Aaron McKie is a reason the 76ers squad was better), and make absurd claims to validate their ideals of him.  Including implying it is ok if he picks and chooses when he plays elite defense (Jordan would never have done that). 

Lebron is an all-time great.  But people craft stories of him (like Chuck Norris), to glorify him for media purposes/story lines and people keep repeating them and arguing they are true, when they make no sense. 

[WarriorDad]

Where was the talent?  You are seriously going to use Aaron McKie as a "good player".  He was 6th man of the year backing up for George f'n Lynch. 

That team sucked.  They had Iverson, a 34 year old Mutombo and absolutely nothing.  Getting to the playoffs with that squad (only had Mutombo for 26 games) was nothing short of amazing.

The 2000-01 76ers were the #1 seed in the East and won 56 games.  How can you state that team getting to the playoffs was amazing?  They ran away with the Eastern Conference. 

[forgetful]

The 2000-01 76ers were the #1 seed in the East and won 56 games.  How can you state that team getting to the playoffs was amazing?  They ran away with the Eastern Conference.

Yes and with Aaron Mckie as their 3rd best player.  If I asked you to name 3 people from that roster, you wouldn't have been able to without looking it up.  If I showed you that roster and asked if they should make the playoffs, the answer would be no.

That is the exact reason why that was such an amazing performance by Allen Iverson.  He was that team.  He didn't even have Mutombo for most of that year, but still won, night in and night out. 

Players like Hughes/Gooden made their names without Lebron, and actually played worse when they were on his team.  Players like Mckie were literally nobodies without Iverson, Iverson made them.

[WarriorDad]

Have you been paying attention to who LBJ has been guarding this postseason? While Victor Oladipo was nearly single handedly carrying the Pacers to a victory over the Cavs LBJ was hiding on Bojan Bogdonovic. Against the Raptors he wasn’t guarding DeRozan or Lowry, he was guarding rookie OG Anunoby. This past series I can’t recall him ever guarding Jayson Tatum or Al Horford, he was guarding Marcus Morris or Jaylen Brown.

Maybe I’m wrong but my guess is Jordan steps up and guards Oladipo, DeRozan, and Tatum if he ever had this easy of a road through the East.

Basketball Reference has Kevin Love at a 68% chance to be a Hall of Famer. And if Kyrie stays healthy I’d guess he’ll have a very good shot at it someday too (currently at 37%, 18th best chance of any active player). So basically this is his second Finals appearance without at least two potential Hall of Famers next to him.

When Michael was with great players, he won it all.  When he didn't, he lost in the first round or didn't make it to the finals.  The first three years of MJ the team was bad, and got killed in the first round three straight years. I cannot even remember if we won a single game in those series, maybe one.  Then the Pistons took care of us for a number of years. 

You are saying a 37% Kyrie is same as into the Hall of Fame?  And Love not even at 70%.  That's stretching.  Not to also ignore the other players MJ had next to him in the form of shooters like Paxson, Kerr, Armstrong.  The talent levels are not close to what Lebron has had on the Cavs.

James is being asked to play 45 minutes a game, that means he is going to be smart about who he guards for both foul trouble and stamina.  When the Cavs need a defensive play in the clutch, he has found a way.  He is also having to deal with the ball in his hands, the constant hand checking and bodying up, which MJ did not have to deal with as often.  I will be buried with a MJ jersey on, but James has done more with less than MJ did and he is punished for leading poor teams to the title.  MJ never could do that.

[MU82]

Have you been paying attention to who LBJ has been guarding this postseason? While Victor Oladipo was nearly single handedly carrying the Pacers to a victory over the Cavs LBJ was hiding on Bojan Bogdonovic. Against the Raptors he wasn’t guarding DeRozan or Lowry, he was guarding rookie OG Anunoby. This past series I can’t recall him ever guarding Jayson Tatum or Al Horford, he was guarding Marcus Morris or Jaylen Brown.

Maybe I’m wrong but my guess is Jordan steps up and guards Oladipo, DeRozan, and Tatum if he ever had this easy of a road through the East.

Basketball Reference has Kevin Love at a 68% chance to be a Hall of Famer. And if Kyrie stays healthy I’d guess he’ll have a very good shot at it someday too (currently at 37%, 18th best chance of any active player). So basically this is his second Finals appearance without at least two potential Hall of Famers next to him.

Which is two more Finals carrying those kinds of supporting casts than just about anybody else ever has done. Name another player who carried two different mediocre teams to the Finals, let alone doing so a decade apart, let alone with a coach who couldn't coach his way out of a paper bag, let alone in a city that had been known as Losersville. The first was when he was 22 years old; this was in his 15th season. Remarkable IMHO.

Think about the state of the games of Jordan, Bird, Magic, Mailman, etc, when they were in their 15th seasons. I know that LeBron came into the league 2-4 years earlier than those guys did, but it's not his "fault" that the norms changed. Michael had the opportunity to go pro out of high school - Dawkins and Moses did it - but he chose not.

In his 15th season, with all those years of wear and tear on his body from deep playoff runs year after year after year, LeBron played all 82 regular-season games and then went for 81-26-18 in two elimination conference-finals game while Love was out with a concussion. Last night, in his 100th game of the season, he played all 48 minutes and still had the strength at the end to carry 235-pound Marcus Morris, who was trying to tackle him, to the hoop as if Morris were a mosquito. Incredible.

I do agree with you about LeBron's defense this playoff run. He has not been asked to defend studs most of the time. But the Cavs, like most other teams, do a ton of switching. So in this series, for instance, he'll be on Tatum one possession, Horford the next, Smart the next, etc. And his help defense is good.

His man-on-man defense isn't what it once was. I remember him almost singlehandedly neutralizing Derrick Rose in every key situation in the playoffs several years ago. He couldn't defend a player like that now. Then again, Michael couldn't have defended a player like that when he was an "elder statesman," either.

Overall, I'd rate Michael the superior man defender during his career and James the more versatile defender and slightly better help defender.

Of course, Michael also never won a title without two great sidekicks (Pippen/Grant and Pippen/Rodman), good role players (Paxson, Armstrong, Kerr, Harper, etc) and one of the best coaches ever. Neither did Russell or West or Bird or Magic or Kobe or Shaq or Kareem or Wade or etc, etc, etc.

I know you love to diminish LeBron's accomplishments, but it's pretty hard work to do so. He's no worse than top-3 ever, and he's really probably no worse than 1A.

[GGGG]

That team sucked.  They had Iverson, a 34 year old Mutombo and absolutely nothing.  Getting to the playoffs with that squad (only had Mutombo for 26 games) was nothing short of amazing.

Lebron's team had Big Z, who was not too far removed from an All-star appearance, and at the top of his game.  They had Larry Hughes, who although not a star, was a better player than anyone on the 76ers not named AI or Mutombo.  Same with Drew Gooden.  Not a star, but better than any option on the 76ers.

That second paragraph is laughable.  Big Z and Drew Gooden?  Cmon...

First you said that AI shouldered it alone.  Then when it was pointed out that the defensive player of the year and All NBA Second team was also on that team, you shifted the goalposts and included Dikembe's age. (That matters how?)

And 2000-01 Aaron McKie is better than anyone on this Cavs' roster outside of James and Love. 

[WarriorDad]

Yes and with Aaron Mckie as their 3rd best player.  If I asked you to name 3 people from that roster, you wouldn't have been able to without looking it up.  If I showed you that roster and asked if they should make the playoffs, the answer would be no.

That is the exact reason why that was such an amazing performance by Allen Iverson.  He was that team.  He didn't even have Mutombo for most of that year, but still won, night in and night out. 

Players like Hughes/Gooden made their names without Lebron, and actually played worse when they were on his team.  Players like Mckie were literally nobodies without Iverson, Iverson made them.

I can't remember players from last year, so that isn't going to work for me.   

Didn't that team have Kukoc before he was traded or was that a different year?  If I recall they were a playoff team a few years prior to that year, so to suggest them making the playoffs shouldn't have happened and they did it multiple years in a row is stretching credibility.  Half the conference makes the playoffs. 

They were not a great team, maybe not even a good team, but not better than the Cavs that James has taken to the to the Finals.

This site ranks them 2nd worst to go to the finals.  Worst, the '07 Cleveland Cavs.   https://www.thesportster.com/basketball/top-15-worst-teams-to-appear-in-the-nba-finals/

This site ranks the 76ers as the 10th worst ever to make the Finals  http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2775462-where-would-lebrons-cavs-rank-among-worst-modern-nba-finals-teams#slide2

[WarriorDad]

Yes and with Aaron Mckie as their 3rd best player.  If I asked you to name 3 people from that roster, you wouldn't have been able to without looking it up.  If I showed you that roster and asked if they should make the playoffs, the answer would be no.

Didn't even make the 50 worst teams ever to make the playoffs. 

http://www.landofbasketball.com/statistics/worst_to_make_playoffs.htm


When did Larry Hughes make a name for himself?

[GGGG]

Yes and with Aaron Mckie as their 3rd best player.  If I asked you to name 3 people from that roster, you wouldn't have been able to without looking it up.  If I showed you that roster and asked if they should make the playoffs, the answer would be no.

That is the exact reason why that was such an amazing performance by Allen Iverson.  He was that team.  He didn't even have Mutombo for most of that year, but still won, night in and night out. 

Players like Hughes/Gooden made their names without Lebron, and actually played worse when they were on his team.  Players like Mckie were literally nobodies without Iverson, Iverson made them.

What?  Larry Hughes was a good player but "made a name for himself?"  He made zero all star teams and only finished in the top ten of any statstical category once.  NBA Reference Similarity Players?  Jon Berry and Brevin Knight.  Wonderful.

Drew Gooden was a decent player and good locker room guy.  Similarity players?  Anderson Varejo and Ed Pinckney. 

Pretty much slightly above average players who filled up a roster. 

[forgetful]

That second paragraph is laughable.  Big Z and Drew Gooden?  Cmon...

First you said that AI shouldered it alone.  Then when it was pointed out that the defensive player of the year and All NBA Second team was also on that team, you shifted the goalposts and included Dikembe's age. (That matters how?)

And 2000-01 Aaron McKie is better than anyone on this Cavs' roster outside of James and Love.

You're a stats guy.  Look up stats on Big Z and Drew Gooden and their careers.

And I didn't shift the goalposts.  I was well aware of Mutumbo being on the team, but view him as a better version of Big Z in their respective points in their careers.  Mutumbo is the only player any rational human would trade for on those two rosters. 

And the bolded is an example of Lebron supporters going delusional to Chuck Norrisfy Lebron.  JR Smith, Kyle Korver and George Hill are all substantially better than Aaron Mckie.  All those 3 established themselves as good players on multiple teams.  Hell, Jordan Clarkson is statistically better than McKie.  Jeff Green is even comparable.

McKie had a couple mediocre seasons taking the ball from AI.  The fact that this is even a discussion is my biggest complaint against his proponents.  They exaggerate everything and make absurd statements to glorify him.  It isn't necessary.  He's an all-time grade without the exaggerations.

[jesmu84]

For the Jordan camp - I believe the East was a tougher conference during Jordan's years. Pistons, Knicks, Supersonics, etc.

Also, someone mentioned LBJ not having played with any HOFers... isn't Wade a HOF?

[GGGG]

You're a stats guy.  Look up stats on Big Z and Drew Gooden and their careers.

And I didn't shift the goalposts.  I was well aware of Mutumbo being on the team, but view him as a better version of Big Z in their respective points in their careers.  Mutumbo is the only player any rational human would trade for on those two rosters. 

And the bolded is an example of Lebron supporters going delusional to Chuck Norrisfy Lebron.  JR Smith, Kyle Korver and George Hill are all substantially better than Aaron Mckie.  All those 3 established themselves as good players on multiple teams.  Hell, Jordan Clarkson is statistically better than McKie.  Jeff Green is even comparable.

McKie had a couple mediocre seasons taking the ball from AI.  The fact that this is even a discussion is my biggest complaint against his proponents.  They exaggerate everything and make absurd statements to glorify him.  It isn't necessary.  He's an all-time grade without the exaggerations.

You claim I'm exaggerating yet you think that 2000-01 Big Z was somewhat comparable to Dikembe.   

And no, Korver this year isn't better than '01 McKie.  Neither is Hill.  Better careers?  No doubt. 

[reinko]

Easily settled here:

www.mjvslebron.net

[MUBBau]

When did Larry Hughes make a name for himself?

When he dropped 40 on Marquette 

[forgetful]

What?  Larry Hughes was a good player but "made a name for himself?"  He made zero all star teams and only finished in the top ten of any statstical category once.  NBA Reference Similarity Players?  Jon Berry and Brevin Knight.  Wonderful.

Drew Gooden was a decent player and good locker room guy.  Similarity players?  Anderson Varejo and Ed Pinckney. 

Pretty much slightly above average players who filled up a roster.

I didn't say they were all-stars.  We're comparing them to Aaron F'n Mckie.

Hughes made NBA all-defense team, led the NBA in steals, had multiple seasons averaging over 20 pts per game. 

McKie isn't even an average player.  His claim to fame is he played with AI.

You claim I'm exaggerating yet you think that 2000-01 Big Z was somewhat comparable to Dikembe.   

And no, Korver this year isn't better than '01 McKie.  Neither is Hill.  Better careers?  No doubt. 

Didn't say that.  You are making crap up now. 

I said Mutumbo was a better version of Big Z. 

But I'm done with this discussion. 

In my opinion, you've proven my point for me.  A Lebron champion will even go to the point of arguing that Aaron McKie is a better player than Korver, Hill, Hughes etc., to maintain a narrative of Lebron leading a band of misfits to the finals, instead of just being happy with him being one of the best ever, because his game says so.

[GGGG]

I didn't say they were all-stars.  We're comparing them to Aaron F'n Mckie.

You might be.  I am not.  Never made that claim. 

In my opinion, you've proven my point for me.  A Lebron champion will even go to the point of arguing that Aaron McKie is a better player than Korver, Hill, Hughes etc., to maintain a narrative of Lebron leading a band of misfits to the finals, instead of just being happy with him being one of the best ever, because his game says so.

Look up Korver and Hill statistically *this year* and compare to 2000-01 McKie.  You will see, that while both clearly have had better careers, neither has had better seasons.  Korver by this point is a 36 year old one trick pony.  Hill has been a bit player on this team since the trade.  McKie was a 30+ MPG player.

And I actually think this is another discussion, along with that famously hilarious "Larry Bird is better than LBJ" opinion, that proves one thing you said about yourself.

I would never argue that I am one of the most knowledgeable posters regarding the NBA. 

In fact, I don't even think I'd venture to argue that I am even knowledgeable. 

Yep.  No argument here.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Excellent points, Sultan.

Look at LeBron's first Finals team, for example. That Iverson team was better.

He didn't have to go through a healthy DWade that year though. Never would have made that first appearance had Wade not separated his shoulder. Truly a tragedy

[wadesworld]

When Michael was with great players, he won it all.  When he didn't, he lost in the first round or didn't make it to the finals.  The first three years of MJ the team was bad, and got killed in the first round three straight years. I cannot even remember if we won a single game in those series, maybe one.  Then the Pistons took care of us for a number of years. 

You are saying a 37% Kyrie is same as into the Hall of Fame?  And Love not even at 70%.  That's stretching.  Not to also ignore the other players MJ had next to him in the form of shooters like Paxson, Kerr, Armstrong.  The talent levels are not close to what Lebron has had on the Cavs.

James is being asked to play 45 minutes a game, that means he is going to be smart about who he guards for both foul trouble and stamina.  When the Cavs need a defensive play in the clutch, he has found a way.  He is also having to deal with the ball in his hands, the constant hand checking and bodying up, which MJ did not have to deal with as often.  I will be buried with a MJ jersey on, but James has done more with less than MJ did and he is punished for leading poor teams to the title.  MJ never could do that.

Considering Kyrie Irving just turned 26 years old and these probabilities go up year by year, yes, I think it's pretty safe to say that as long as Kyrie doesn't have some kind of career threatening injury before he's out of his prime he will be a Hall of Famer.  And yes Love at nearly 70% is a good bet.  He has the 14th highest HOF probability of any active player, and 11 of the players ahead of him are at 95% or above.  I'm fairly confident that there will be more than 3 players beyond the 11 that are virtual locks that get into the HOF.

But if we want to play it by who is currently literally in the HOF then sure, Rodman and Pippen are Hall of Famers and Love and Kyrie are not.  You know who else isn't?  LeBron.  So I guess the debate is over.  MJ is a Hall of Famer, LeBron isn't, if that's how we want to play that argument.

I'm sure MJ's Bulls in the early years would've had a horrific time trying to navigate through the gauntlet that is a Pacers team that isn't very good, a Raptors team full of mental midgets, and a Celtics team without their two best players.

LBJ is 3-4 in NBA Finals with 2+ (given that he had more than 2 future HOFers with him on the Heat...) HOFers playing alongside him.  MJ was 6-0.  But sure, let's give LBJ extra points for getting through the East more often than MJ did.  Because LBJ's East is close to as good as it was when MJ was going through it, I guess.

PS Have you ever heard of "The Jordan Rules?"

[Silkk the Shaka]

Lebron is an all-time great.  But people craft stories of him (like Chuck Norris), to glorify him for media purposes/story lines and people keep repeating them and arguing they are true, when they make no sense.

This is it for me exactly

[wadesworld]

LeBron has 18 NBA Finals wins in 8 NBA Finals appearances so far.  I'll give him 19 NBA Finals wins in 9 NBA Finals appearances since a gentleman's sweep in this year's NBA Finals might be the most predictable result in any sporting event ever.

MJ had 24 NBA Finals wins in 6 NBA Finals appearances.

[Jockey]

LeBron has 18 NBA Finals wins in 8 NBA Finals appearances so far.  I'll give him 19 NBA Finals wins in 9 NBA Finals appearances since a gentleman's sweep in this year's NBA Finals might be the most predictable result in any sporting event ever.

MJ had 24 NBA Finals wins in 6 NBA Finals appearances.

Why couldn't MJ get to more than 6 finals?