NBA '17

[GGGG]

The Cavs were 15-15 against the West. No team from the West that made the playoffs had a worse winning percentage against the West than that.

So, statistically speaking, they performed worse than all the playoff teams from the West. 

If you take their win percentage in the East and apply it to 30 games (as if they were in the West) and do the same for the 52 games against the west, they would have finished 46-36 and missed the playoffs.

But what about playoff teams from the West that had losing records against teams from the East?  (Jazz, TWolves)   The Raptors had a winning record against teams from the West and got swept by the Cavs in four games.  I'm just not sure that is the best way to judge this.  A lot depends on when teams are travelling inter-conference.  Who's healthy when they travel. 

A good NBA stat is the Simple Rating System that accounts for point differential and applies it to strength of schedule.  Using that stat, the Cavs are one of the top 16 teams in the NBA.  In fact, ranking teams by that stat has 15 of the 16 NBA playoff teams.  (The Bucks were the outlier - over the Nuggets.)

[forgetful]

But what about playoff teams from the West that had losing records against teams from the East?  (Jazz, TWolves)   The Raptors had a winning record against teams from the West and got swept by the Cavs in four games.  I'm just not sure that is the best way to judge this.  A lot depends on when teams are travelling inter-conference.  Who's healthy when they travel. 

A good NBA stat is the Simple Rating System that accounts for point differential and applies it to strength of schedule.  Using that stat, the Cavs are one of the top 16 teams in the NBA.  In fact, ranking teams by that stat has 15 of the 16 NBA playoff teams.  (The Bucks were the outlier - over the Nuggets.)

I agree that my metric was likely not a very good one.  It was just the data I had looked at before I made the initial post (a crude effort to make sure what I said wasn't completely absurd). 

I had never heard of the Simple Rating System.  But using it, Cleveland would be the 10th best team in the West, and would have missed the playoffs.  They are 5th in the East (14th overall), which is consistent with them only making the playoffs because they are in the weaker conference. 

I'm not saying this makes me right, obviously this is pure conjecture, and opinion, and there are a million other variables that would come into play.  Not the least of which would be the fact that Lebron would have been fighting down the stretch to make sure they were team 7 or 8, instead of 9 or 10.  Rather I only made this reply to suggest/support that my statement/opinion was not as absurd as it initially came across as.

[forgetful]

https://twitter.com/jon_bois/status/1000580952047931393

That was quite the comeback. 

Curious what you think about officiating in the two series.  Not that it it isn't fair or balanced, but how the game is called. 

Seems like the Celtics/Warriors both win when they let the game be physical and the teams can pressure/push Harden/James when they drive.  When the officials call it tighter, the Celtics/Warriors need to back off more allowing Harden/James to score at will and they lose. 

Could be purely my imagination, but curious what other eyes are seeing. 

[GGGG]

That was quite the comeback. 

Curious what you think about officiating in the two series.  Not that it it isn't fair or balanced, but how the game is called. 

Seems like the Celtics/Warriors both win when they let the game be physical and the teams can pressure/push Harden/James when they drive.  When the officials call it tighter, the Celtics/Warriors need to back off more allowing Harden/James to score at will and they lose. 

Could be purely my imagination, but curious what other eyes are seeing. 

Honestly I haven’t been paying that much attention. Last night was the first of the conference finals I watched from beginning to end. It’s mostly been on in the background.

[wadesworld]

Marcus Smart and Terry Rozier have been the 2 best players for the Cavs tonight.

I’m the regular season you might take Marcus Smart over someone like George Hill because Smart doesn’t know anything other than play as hard as you can all the time while 98% of NBA players cruise for much of the first half of the season, but goodness gracious is he terrible.

[Jockey]

Marcus Smart and Terry Rozier have been the 2 best players for the Cavs tonight.

Really, Wades?

[MU82]

"No one person has ever shouldered more of a load to get his team to the Finals. You'll never have a greater accomplishment." - Jeff Van Gundy, as the final seconds ticked down tonight.

[Jockey]

1 & 1A

[GGGG]

"No one person has ever shouldered more of a load to get his team to the Finals. You'll never have a greater accomplishment." - Jeff Van Gundy, as the final seconds ticked down tonight.

Him wearing Morris as a cape when going in for that lay up was symbolic.

They’re gonna get trucked in the finals though.

[wadesworld]

Really, Wades?

Really. Did you watch the game?

I’ve never seen 2 worse performances in a Playoff game.

[WarriorDad]

I have been a Bulls fan for I can't even remember how many years.  40+.  After tonight, I am finally anointing James as greatest ever.  He does things that no other player in history can do because of his size and athleticism.

This Cavs team is so void of talent, and the only halfway decent second player is Love, who did not play tonight or most of the game on Friday, but he willed his team to an 8th appearance.  They don't even belong in the same building with the Rockets or Warriors, but for them to get here is amazing.  As much as I love Michael, he played on teams better than this Cavs team and wasn't able to get them to the Finals.   Michael couldn't play center, Lebron can.  We are witnessing something amazing with this super human man.

[forgetful]

"No one person has ever shouldered more of a load to get his team to the Finals. You'll never have a greater accomplishment." - Jeff Van Gundy, as the final seconds ticked down tonight.

That award would go to Allen Iverson.

Carried probably the worst team to make the NBA finals on his back, and beat an extremely talented Bucks squad. 

[forgetful]

Really. Did you watch the game?

I’ve never seen 2 worse performances in a Playoff game.

Combined 3-24 for 8 points. 

The Celtics were the worst team to ever play in an NBA Division finals. 

[WarriorDad]

"No one person has ever shouldered more of a load to get his team to the Finals. You'll never have a greater accomplishment." - Jeff Van Gundy, as the final seconds ticked down tonight.

He is right.  I said the same thing to my wife with a few minutes left.  No one. This Cavs team is as untalented as any team I can recall, especially with Love out.  James took an awful Cavs team to the finals before he went to the Heat, and now he has done it again with this cast of stiffs.  A player for the ages.

[WarriorDad]

Combined 3-24 for 8 points. 

The Celtics were the worst team to ever play in an NBA Division finals.

'70-'71 Bullets were 42-40 and made the NBA Finals
'75-'76 Suns were also 42-40 and made the NBA Finals

'06-'07 Cavs, with Larry Hughes as the highest paid player on the Cavs.  You read that right.  Dreadful basketball team that James willed to the finals.

[MU82]

That award would go to Allen Iverson.

Carried probably the worst team to make the NBA finals on his back, and beat an extremely talented Bucks squad.

Not gonna argue that Iverson didn't lift a pretty bad team, but Van Gundy would disagree with you about it being any better than this accomplishment by LeBron ... and so would I.

And of course, this is the second time he totally carried a team of borderline talent to the Finals. And he now has reached the Finals 8 straight times (and 9 overall). Zounds!

I know the LeBron haters like to pick at The Decision, and him occasionally saying dopey stuff, and him sometimes acting like he had just been shot when he had barely been touched, etc ... those are the reaches of people desperate to find fault with him that way because his basketball is basically above reproach.

It reminds me of the Jordan haters who focused on his gambling, his golf, his bullying, etc. ... because it was pretty hard to go after Michael as a basketball player.

LeBron and Jordan are/were such different basketball players that it's really just a matter of preference to say one is/was better than the other. But LeBron ... I'm pretty much out of adjectives. And the thing is, he might have 5 more great years left in him!

[GGGG]

That award would go to Allen Iverson.

Carried probably the worst team to make the NBA finals on his back, and beat an extremely talented Bucks squad. 

That team had Mutombo as the NBA defensive player of the year and All-NBA second team and the sixth man of the year in Aaron McKie.

It wasn't a great team by any means, but it had more talent than you are portraying.

[MU82]

That team had Mutombo as the NBA defensive player of the year and All-NBA second team and the sixth man of the year in Aaron McKie.

It wasn't a great team by any means, but it had more talent than you are portraying.

Excellent points, Sultan.

Look at LeBron's first Finals team, for example. That Iverson team was better.

[GGGG]

I should have added that the 76ers acquired Mutombo at the trading deadline that year.  It was definitely seen as a enormous pick up for the Sixers and that year is usually considered the best of his career.  Forgetful has repeatedly minimized LBJ on this board so I just think this is an extension of that.

I think people have gone a little bit over the top with LBJ this year and the "no talent" description of the Cavs - the 2007 Cavs had a worse supporting case IMO.  But this is by far the least talented team of the string of eight that he has lead to the Finals. 

[Goose]

Different era and different type players. I heard someone on ESPN radio make a great point. If you are a Jordan guy, which I am, you can make the case it is Jordan my a mile. If a LBJ guy, it is that he is as good or slightly better.  That made a lot of sense to me.

Not take anything away from LBJ, but the teams he beat this year are really not very good teams. He might have almost single handily carried the Cavs, but I am not that impressed by the teams he beat.

As I stated, I am a big time Jordan guy. To me, he was much watch TV. I dosed off several times during the game last night. The second quarter was almost unwatchable to me. Boston could have put the game away and they failed miserably.

Hats off to LBJ, but I am pulling for the Warriors. Speaking of that, the Warriors were much watch TV to me a couple of seasons ago. I very much enjoyed the early part of the Warrior era.

[GGGG]

Different era and different type players. I heard someone on ESPN radio make a great point. If you are a Jordan guy, which I am, you can make the case it is Jordan my a mile. If a LBJ guy, it is that he is as good or slightly better.  That made a lot of sense to me.

OK.  Make the case it is Jordan by a mile.

Because I still am more of a "Jordan guy," but I can't bend reality enough to make the case that it's by "a mile."  And you dozing off in front of the television is probably more due to age than anything else.   

[Goose]

Sultan

I did not say Jordan by a mile, the guy on ESPN said it. We could debate this topic for a very long time and little would be accomplished. Until further notice, I am still a Jordan guy and not really close in my mind.

[GGGG]

Sultan

I did not say Jordan by a mile, the guy on ESPN said it. We could debate this topic for a very long time and little would be accomplished. Until further notice, I am still a Jordan guy and not really close in my mind.

Well "by a mile" and "not really close" are pretty much the same thing.

Again, I have no idea how someone could have that opinion.  Even if you think Jordan is better, and I would be in that camp, only romanticism can lead one to believe that it isn't close. 

I mean statistically the only things that Jordan does better is score (mostly because he shoots more) and turns the ball over less.  LBJ is a better shooter (FG%, eFG% and 3FG%), better distributor, better rebounder and has a smaller USG% in the process.  I also think Jordan was an elite defender whereas LBJ, while very good, isn't in the Jordan category.

Of course there are the titles (team accomplishment) and the "it factor" that Jordan seemed to have.  But I think I'm falling into the romanticism a little to much when I mention the latter. 

[Goose]

Sultan

Not even close in regards to defense. Couple that with scoring, less turnovers and a lot of hardware at the Jordan house, it still is not close to me. For the record, it took me quite some time to become a Jordan guy, and winning is what did it for me.

[StillAWarrior]

Sultan

Not even close in regards to defense. Couple that with scoring, less turnovers and a lot of hardware at the Jordan house, it still is not close to me. For the record, it took me quite some time to become a Jordan guy, and winning is what did it for me.

Yeah, there is a lot of hardware at the Jordan house. But, only six Eastern Conference trophies. I personally think MJ has a slim lead. But, it’s close. It’s hard to argue with 6-0, but I’m not going to fault LBJ too much for carrying his team to the finals so many times. Particularly when he’s had to play against the historically good Warriors three times (and counting).

And, who knows what the next five years might bring.