NBA '17

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Didn't say they were mutually exclusive.

I didn't say you did.  I was more responding to Wades, who hates Lebron.  I can recognize Lebron is a theatrical flopper, constantly complains to the refs, and has some weird social media situations.

Despite all that, I can recognize he's a great basketball player. Personally, I don't feel the need to hate Lebron. But haters gonna hate.

[Pakuni]

Wow.  Isn't that what got him in trouble earlier?

He was accused of groping a fitness club masseuse in Illinois.

[wadesworld]

I didn't say you did.  I was more responding to Wades, who hates Lebron.  I can recognize Lebron is a theatrical flopper, constantly complains to the refs, and has some weird social media situations.

Despite all that, I can recognize he's a great basketball player. Personally, I don't feel the need to hate Lebron. But haters gonna hate.

I hate LeBron because he's a whiner, phony, and flopper.

I've never said he's anything but great at basketball.

Being great at something doesn't mean I have to like them.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

I hate LeBron because he's a whiner, phony, and flopper.

I've never said he's anything but great at basketball.

Being great at something doesn't mean I have to like them.

Feel free to hate away.  You're entitled to your opinion.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

I didn't say you did.  I was more responding to Wades, who hates Lebron.  I can recognize Lebron is a theatrical flopper, constantly complains to the refs, and has some weird social media situations.

Despite all that, I can recognize he's a great basketball player. Personally, I don't feel the need to hate Lebron. But haters gonna hate.

Got it - my fault. 

I can't stand Lebron.  I also think he's probably the 2nd best player of all time behind MJ. 

[MU82]

I'm not sure if I ever tried to paint LeBron as a paragon of virtue in any way.

He probably isn't as big a jerk as some think he is; he probably isn't the greatest person around as some also undoubtedly think he is. Like most of us, he's a flawed human being.

What he is IMHO is the second-best player ever ... and gaining fast on the first.

If he gets to the NBA Finals with this team, it will be almost as impressive as the awful Cavs group he carried to his very first Finals appearance. Certainly, Michael never reached the Finals with a supporting cast like this: Love good on a good day (but otherwise meh), and otherwise a bunch of chipped beef on stale bread. Not to mention a coach who isn't exactly Phil Jackson.

One thing that's interesting to me is that in many past seasons, LeBron was willing to be the facillitator in the biggest situations - feeding Wade or Allen or others to take the big shots. But now, he's getting the ball and he's not giving it up. He's taking every big shot, and he's delivering. His Game 3 winner was even more incredible than his Game 1 winner IMHO.

I'm a huge fan of Jordan, BTW, even though he was, by most accounts, a complete douchebag of a human being during his playing days: bully, vindictive, adulterous, disloyal, incredibly selfish, etc.

MJ wasn't a flopper, though. He was known to get away with shoving defenders out of the way, but it wasn't his fault the refs didn't call it.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

I'm not sure if I ever tried to paint LeBron as a paragon of virtue in any way.

He probably isn't as big a jerk as some think he is; he probably isn't the greatest person around as some also undoubtedly think he is. Like most of us, he's a flawed human being.

What he is IMHO is the second-best player ever ... and gaining fast on the first.

If he gets to the NBA Finals with this team, it will be almost as impressive as the awful Cavs group he carried to his very first Finals appearance. Certainly, Michael never reached the Finals with a supporting cast like this: Love good on a good day (but otherwise meh), and otherwise a bunch of chipped beef on stale bread. Not to mention a coach who isn't exactly Phil Jackson.

One thing that's interesting to me is that in many past seasons, LeBron was willing to be the facillitator in the biggest situations - feeding Wade or Allen or others to take the big shots. But now, he's getting the ball and he's not giving it up. He's taking every big shot, and he's delivering. His Game 3 winner was even more incredible than his Game 1 winner IMHO.

I'm a huge fan of Jordan, BTW, even though he was, by most accounts, a complete douchebag of a human being during his playing days: bully, vindictive, adulterous, disloyal, incredibly selfish, etc.

MJ wasn't a flopper, though. He was known to get away with shoving defenders out of the way, but it wasn't his fault the refs didn't call it.

I will say the Eastern Conference is as big of a joke as it has ever been this season. If Boston was full strength they'd wipe the floor with Cleveland, IMO.

And if Cleveland does make it I don't think they have much of a chance vs Houston or Golden State.

[wadesworld]

I'm not sure if I ever tried to paint LeBron as a paragon of virtue in any way.

He probably isn't as big a jerk as some think he is; he probably isn't the greatest person around as some also undoubtedly think he is. Like most of us, he's a flawed human being.

What he is IMHO is the second-best player ever ... and gaining fast on the first.

If he gets to the NBA Finals with this team, it will be almost as impressive as the awful Cavs group he carried to his very first Finals appearance. Certainly, Michael never reached the Finals with a supporting cast like this: Love good on a good day (but otherwise meh), and otherwise a bunch of chipped beef on stale bread. Not to mention a coach who isn't exactly Phil Jackson.

One thing that's interesting to me is that in many past seasons, LeBron was willing to be the facillitator in the biggest situations - feeding Wade or Allen or others to take the big shots. But now, he's getting the ball and he's not giving it up. He's taking every big shot, and he's delivering. His Game 3 winner was even more incredible than his Game 1 winner IMHO.

I'm a huge fan of Jordan, BTW, even though he was, by most accounts, a complete douchebag of a human being during his playing days: bully, vindictive, adulterous, disloyal, incredibly selfish, etc.

MJ wasn't a flopper, though. He was known to get away with shoving defenders out of the way, but it wasn't his fault the refs didn't call it.

MJ also never built a roster of "chipped beef on stale bread" like LBJ did.  He also never had the luxury of going through the stalwarts of a Celtics team without its top 2 players, a Raptors team that is about as mentally tough as a bunch of 4th grade YMCA league kids, and a one man team like the Pacers.  The competition isn't even remotely comparable.

Nor did Michael ever have to convince two other top 10 players in the league to take less money than they could have to join him to finally get a championship ring.  Or completely forget to show up for an entire NBA Finals en route to a team that had Dirk Nowitzki and then even worse "chipped beef on stale bread" than LBJ currently has on his team.

[MU82]

MJ also never built a roster of "chipped beef on stale bread" like LBJ did.  He also never had the luxury of going through the stalwarts of a Celtics team without its top 2 players, a Raptors team that is about as mentally tough as a bunch of 4th grade YMCA league kids, and a one man team like the Pacers.  The competition isn't even remotely comparable.

Nor did Michael ever have to convince two other top 10 players in the league to take less money than they could have to join him to finally get a championship ring.  Or completely forget to show up for an entire NBA Finals en route to a team that had Dirk Nowitzki and then even worse "chipped beef on stale bread" than LBJ currently has on his team.

You're right about Michael not having the influence on the roster that LeBron reportedly has had. But Michael desperately wanted that influence and he constantly lobbied for Krause and Reinsdorf to make this trade or draft such-and-such player. He whined repeatedly about many of Krause's moves, especially the trade of Oakley for Cartwright. He did not want Rodman. He once told Reinsdorf that Pippen was too "weak" to help the Bulls win championships. He did not want Kukoc. Jordan was a terrible decision-maker as president of the Wizards, and he certainly has been nothing close to special with the Bobcats/Hornets. So it's a darn good thing for the Bulls that MJ didn't have that kind of influence.

Again, Jordan didn't have the opportunity to choose teammates who could have helped him win; that's not the way the NBA worked back then. But if he had that opportunity, he probably would have taken it. We do know he said he would retire if the Bulls didn't keep Jackson - they didn't, and he did. Some think he took the easy way out, especially since he obviously wasn't ready to retire.

It is hardly James' fault that the NBA East has been weaker. You can only beat the teams in front of you.

LeBron did not have a great 2011 Finals, absolutely correct, and Jordan never played as poorly in the Finals as LeBron did that year. And yet LeBron "showed up" enough to play 44 minutes a game. But yes, he had a poor Finals (for him: 18-7-7); I'd never claim differently.

Your arguments sound like they are meant to counter the opinions of those who actually think LeBron is better than Michael was. I don't. I clearly called LeBron the second-best player in NBA history.

And BTW, we all love Jae. Complete warrior. Nobody questions his toughness and drive. And yet with a few minutes to play in a one-possession game tonight, he flung up a terrible 3 while falling out of bounds, got up slowly, argued with the ref and trotted back on defense, and the Rockets, playing 5-on-4, scored. I don't like it, you don't like it, nobody likes it, but it happens in the NBA all the time.

[wadesworld]

You're right about Michael not having the influence on the roster that LeBron reportedly has had. But Michael desperately wanted that influence and he constantly lobbied for Krause and Reinsdorf to make this trade or draft such-and-such player. He whined repeatedly about many of Krause's moves, especially the trade of Oakley for Cartwright. He did not want Rodman. He once told Reinsdorf that Pippen was too "weak" to help the Bulls win championships. He did not want Kukoc. Jordan was a terrible decision-maker as president of the Wizards, and he certainly has been nothing close to special with the Bobcats/Hornets. So it's a darn good thing for the Bulls that MJ didn't have that kind of influence.

Again, Jordan didn't have the opportunity to choose teammates who could have helped him win; that's not the way the NBA worked back then. But if he had that opportunity, he probably would have taken it. We do know he said he would retire if the Bulls didn't keep Jackson - they didn't, and he did. Some think he took the easy way out, especially since he obviously wasn't ready to retire.

It is hardly James' fault that the NBA East has been weaker. You can only beat the teams in front of you.

LeBron did not have a great 2011 Finals, absolutely correct, and Jordan never played as poorly in the Finals as LeBron did that year. And yet LeBron "showed up" enough to play 44 minutes a game. But yes, he had a poor Finals (for him: 18-7-7); I'd never claim differently.

Your arguments sound like they are meant to counter the opinions of those who actually think LeBron is better than Michael was. I don't. I clearly called LeBron the second-best player in NBA history.

And BTW, we all love Jae. Complete warrior. Nobody questions his toughness and drive. And yet with a few minutes to play in a one-possession game tonight, he flung up a terrible 3 while falling out of bounds, got up slowly, argued with the ref and trotted back on defense, and the Rockets, playing 5-on-4, scored. I don't like it, you don't like it, nobody likes it, but it happens in the NBA all the time.

Didn’t see the end of the game. Did he look like JFK in a motorcade through Dallas?

[MU82]

Didn’t see the end of the game. Did he look like JFK in a motorcade through Dallas?

Nope.

Then again, he didn't almost single-handedly carry an otherwise mediocre team to the conference finals, either.

I don't like LeBron's flopping or whining, and I laughed at the dopey production that was "The Decision."

I love LeBron's game, appreciate the amazing things he's done in a career that amazingly is still getting more amazing, and mostly admire his results.

[GGGG]

Nor did Michael ever have to convince two other top 10 players in the league to take less money than they could have to join him to finally get a championship ring.

He didn't have to.  He had a GM who built championship teams around him and hired a coach who understood how to get the best out of those teams - and then proceeded to insult and belittle that GM. 

[StillAWarrior]

He didn't have to.  He had a GM who built championship teams around him and hired a coach who understood how to get the best out of those teams - and then proceeded to insult and belittle that GM.

In addition, the "super team" team concept hadn't taken hold like it has now in the league.  In today's NBA, it's hard to imagine that anyone is going to win a ring unless he plays for a team that has been assembled with multiple top-tier superstars.  I hope that changes in the future, but it certainly doesn't seem to be heading that direction currently.

I'm an LBJ fan, and I was an MJ fan.  Like a lot of others, I'm not ready to say that LBJ is better than MJ, but for the first time since MJ retired, it's not an absurd thing to discuss.  And, given a few more years...who knows.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Four teams I really don't care for are going to be in the final four. That's all the NBA viewing for me this season. Go Celtics I guess?

[wadesworld]

Four teams I really don't care for are going to be in the final four. That's all the NBA viewing for me this season. Go Celtics I guess?

I don't like many of the individual players on the Rockets, but they are fun to watch and completely bought into how modern basketball is played.  The only individual player I like a lot is Capella.  He's awesome and very underrated.  As a Bucks fan, I admire the heck out of that given that the Bucks think they can "Buck (pun) the trend" and go no shooting, no rebounding, no defense, all length and athleticism.  Awful to watch.

The Warriors are a modern day version of a more talented Spurs.  They are the greatest team I've personally ever watched in my lifetime.

The Celtics are on their way and also built the right way.  The fact that they are doing this with Al Horford and a bunch of young guys as their main players is awesome to watch.  Fun brand of basketball to watch, the only players I don't like are Morris and Smart and they are just glue guys so whatever.  Horford and Baines can be whiny but compared to many it's modest.  I honestly still think the Sixers have a chance to win 4 in a row, and I did even after game 3.  The Sixers currently are far more talented, and totally choked away game 3.  I think the C's grind out one more win, but I wouldn't be shocked if the lack of talent left due to injury on the C's finally catches up to them.

Can't stand the Cavs.  JR is funny to watch because he's so boneheaded.  I enjoy everyone hating on Kevin Love despite him being a very good player, LBJ's passive aggressive attitude towards him has taken him from somewhat overrated in MN to one of the more underrated players in the NBA.

If it's C's vs. Cavs and (it obviously will be this one) Rockets vs. Warriors both should be very competitive, entertaining series.

[MUBBau]

I hate LeBron because he's a whiner, phony, and flopper.

I've never said he's anything but great at basketball.

Being great at something doesn't mean I have to like them.

How is he a phony?

[MU82]

I don't like many of the individual players on the Rockets, but they are fun to watch and completely bought into how modern basketball is played.  The only individual player I like a lot is Capella.  He's awesome and very underrated.  As a Bucks fan, I admire the heck out of that given that the Bucks think they can "Buck (pun) the trend" and go no shooting, no rebounding, no defense, all length and athleticism.  Awful to watch.

The Warriors are a modern day version of a more talented Spurs.  They are the greatest team I've personally ever watched in my lifetime.

The Celtics are on their way and also built the right way.  The fact that they are doing this with Al Horford and a bunch of young guys as their main players is awesome to watch.  Fun brand of basketball to watch, the only players I don't like are Morris and Smart and they are just glue guys so whatever.  Horford and Baines can be whiny but compared to many it's modest.  I honestly still think the Sixers have a chance to win 4 in a row, and I did even after game 3.  The Sixers currently are far more talented, and totally choked away game 3.  I think the C's grind out one more win, but I wouldn't be shocked if the lack of talent left due to injury on the C's finally catches up to them.

Can't stand the Cavs.  JR is funny to watch because he's so boneheaded.  I enjoy everyone hating on Kevin Love despite him being a very good player, LBJ's passive aggressive attitude towards him has taken him from somewhat overrated in MN to one of the more underrated players in the NBA.

If it's C's vs. Cavs and (it obviously will be this one) Rockets vs. Warriors both should be very competitive, entertaining series.

My friend, you sure have a lot of players you either hate, don't like or can't stand!

Agree that the upcoming series should be competitive. The West series is pretty much the NBA championship series; hard to imagine either losing to the Cavs/Celtics. Of course, I never thought the Cavs would sweep the Raptors - in fact, I thought the Raptors would win. Betting against the best player on the planet is never very smart, I guess.

[wadesworld]

How is he a phony?

http://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=4650907

What number does LBJ wear again?

https://youtu.be/RTeCc8jy7FI

But he grew up from that oh so much...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/chicago.suntimes.com/sports/lebron-james-congratulates-himself-twitter-turns-it-into-meme/amp/

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

I'm not sure I understand the whole "Lebron built the team he wanted but loses" argument. Lebron is not playing with Anthony Davis, Joel Embiid, Karl Anthony-Towns, etc. Yes he dictated a say in what players he is currently playing with but lets not pretend his current lineup is his ideal lineup.

I feel that Kevin Durant does not catch nearly as much criticism as he should if people are going to insist on continuing to hate on Lebron James for the building of the Miami Heat team. Lebron recruited players to join together with him yes, but he did not flee to a team that set the single season record for wins the season before after losing to Dallas. I feel that what Durant did was far more egregious in terms of taking the easy way out than anything anyone else in NBA history has done. (Thank Draymond for crying in his car and calling the gm after game 7 for that one). Still have no idea how Silver didn't veto that one after the LA Chris Paul trade went through.

I am not saying the LBJ should be absolved of any criticism because he has acted like a clown many times in his career. But we shouldn't let our blind rage subtract from holding others to the same level of scrutiny.

[BM1090]

I'm not sure I understand the whole "Lebron built the team he wanted but loses" argument. Lebron is not playing with Anthony Davis, Joel Embiid, Karl Anthony-Towns, etc. Yes he dictated a say in what players he is currently playing with but lets not pretend his current lineup is his ideal lineup.

I feel that Kevin Durant does not catch nearly as much criticism as he should if people are going to insist on continuing to hate on Lebron James for the building of the Miami Heat team. Lebron recruited players to join together with him yes, but he did not flee to a team that set the single season record for wins the season before after losing to Dallas. I feel that what Durant did was far more egregious in terms of taking the easy way out than anything anyone else in NBA history has done. (Thank Draymond for crying in his car and calling the gm after game 7 for that one). Still have no idea how Silver didn't veto that one after the LA Chris Paul trade went through.

I am not saying the LBJ should be absolved of any criticism because he has acted like a clown many times in his career. But we shouldn't let our blind rage subtract from holding others to the same level of scrutiny.

How would Silver veto a free agency signing?

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

How would Silver veto a free agency signing?

Apologies I misspoke. I was moreso referring to the fact that they neglected to address this issue of competitive balance in the 2017 CBA.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

I'm not sure I understand the whole "Lebron built the team he wanted but loses" argument. Lebron is not playing with Anthony Davis, Joel Embiid, Karl Anthony-Towns, etc. Yes he dictated a say in what players he is currently playing with but lets not pretend his current lineup is his ideal lineup.

I feel that Kevin Durant does not catch nearly as much criticism as he should if people are going to insist on continuing to hate on Lebron James for the building of the Miami Heat team. Lebron recruited players to join together with him yes, but he did not flee to a team that set the single season record for wins the season before after losing to Dallas. I feel that what Durant did was far more egregious in terms of taking the easy way out than anything anyone else in NBA history has done. (Thank Draymond for crying in his car and calling the gm after game 7 for that one). Still have no idea how Silver didn't veto that one after the LA Chris Paul trade went through.

I am not saying the LBJ should be absolved of any criticism because he has acted like a clown many times in his career. But we shouldn't let our blind rage subtract from holding others to the same level of scrutiny.

I think a lot of the issue with LBJ is not necessarily that he left Cleveland for Miami but the sh*tshow that was The Decision.

[tower912]

I detested Jordan.    Pistons fan.   And MJ never succeeded until the right pieces were around him and he started to trust them.   As well as the Celtics and Pistons getting old.   He was also not a paragon of virtue.    And he got a lot of calls.    Having said that, any discussion of GOAT that does not include him is dumb.    The same with LbJ.   

The game is at an all time level.   The size and speed of the players is unprecedented.    The sophistication of the defenses is at an all time high, offset by the skills of the players on offense.    Yes, officiating no longer allows the physical defense of the 80's, 90's, and early 2000's.    So playoff games are again in the hundreds, not in the 70's and 80's.     Then again, nobody consistently shot 3's off of the dribble 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago, either. 

BTW, Houston runs some version of a high pick and roll on almost every possession and the best basketball minds in the world can't stop it.      Imagine trying to defend it with undersized guards and slow bigs.     

[Skitch]

I think a lot of the issue with LBJ is not necessarily that he left Cleveland for Miami but the sh*tshow that was The Decision.

I know he gets a lot of flak for "The Decision" but the show did make $6 million dollars t h at went to the Boys and Girls Club and other charities.
https://www.sbnation.com/2010/7/8/1559877/lebron-james-free-agent-espn-event-ad-sales

[MU82]

I know he gets a lot of flak for "The Decision" but the show did make $6 million dollars t h at went to the Boys and Girls Club and other charities.
https://www.sbnation.com/2010/7/8/1559877/lebron-james-free-agent-espn-event-ad-sales

Stoopid charities. LeBron is evil.