I Want Our Kamar Baldwin

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Kamar Baldwin was a three star ranked outside the top 150 by most services. His final four schools were Butler, Providence, Clemson, and Ole Miss. Good schools but hardly world beaters on the recruiting trail. The kid is getting starter's minutes as a freshman, hit a game winner against Northwestern, and is putting up impressive stats: 9.8 ppg, 2.2 rpg, 2.0 apg, 2.0 spg, 0.8 bpg, 1.0 tpg, .656 FG%, .545 3P% (that's without today's 11 point, 3 rebound, 2 steal performance against a top 10 team).

When is the last time Marquette landed a three star kid that wasn't highly sought after but turned out to be a stud? Carter played admirably as a freshman but was over his head. Heldt and Anim are both projects. Dawson was magic....Jamal Ferguson was a dud. Derrick was a great person but not a great player. Mayo maybe fits the bill but he was also a space cadet. Reggie Smith didn't pan out.  Mbao...ugh. Otule way outperformed expectations but was hardly a stud. Christopherson was great....for Iowa State. Pat Hazel was bad AND broke the rules. Roseboro ended up being a bench player for UMBC.

Davante might be the closest thing we have had to a diamond in the rough. Meanwhile, I feel like we lead the nation in overrated 4 star players. Junior Cadougan never lived up to the hype. Jeronne Maymon had a crazy dad. Erik Williams was terrible. Jamail Jones never panned out. Juan Anderson tried his best but that's about all you can say. Teve might have been great if was healthy. Jajuan is great now but certainly didn't come in top 30 as advertised. Sandy seemed to have zero confidence...or basketball IQ.

Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, but it seems like we've had a lot of four star busts and very few three star gems to make up for it. We seem to be good at attracting top rated talent, but maybe not on evaluating that talent. The good news is that under the new regime, we haven't had any four star misses yet. Henry, Haanif, Howard, and Hauser (Hs for days!) all look like they deserved their lofty ratings. And the three star kids all have potential to develop into real contributors.

Its early, but Jamal Cain really strikes me as a player who could be our Kamar Baldwin. He's technically a four star, but he's outside the top 100 by most services. That kid can play and I'm hopeful he will come in and make an immediate impact. I also think John will outperform expectations. Maybe not be a stud, but I think he will be reliable off the bench. Eke strikes me as a project, but with as new as he is to the game, he could potentially take off.

Getting highly ranked players is important to long term success. But I think being able to identify the players who maybe don't have the rankings but have the game is the sign of a truly great recruiter. I'm hoping that proves true with the 2017 class.

[forgetful]

What about Jimmy Butler. 

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Or Jae

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Dwyane Wade says hi.

[brewcity77]

Dwyane Wade says hi.

You read my mind. Not sure JUCO All Americans are really three star equivalent.

[jesmu84]

With regards to OP, I agree about finding diamonds, and finding players who pan out to or above their rankings. But with Baldwin, are we sure that's not just small sample size? Maybe, maybe not. But could be.

Further, let's give wojo his chance with recruits. The far majority you listed were under the last regime. We saw what someone like Bo could do with lower ranked players in a successful system. Perhaps wojo can have similar success recruiting to a system rather than rankings/talent.

[Lennys Tap]

You read my mind. Not sure JUCO All Americans are really three star equivalent.

With Jae you're right - he was juco POY after being a 2* in high school. JFB, though, was only a juco Honorable Mention AA, so not in the top 30 in the juco ranks. He qualifies.

[Herman Cain]

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/2016/10/26/kamar-baldwin-picks-up-butlers-defense-quickly/92660314/

[rocket surgeon]

da tree amigos hey

[Silkk the Shaka]

Hauser: 135 Rivals, 3*

https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/536

Baldwin: 123 Rivals, 3*

https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/499


http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/sam-hauser-1.html
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/kamar-baldwin-1.html

According to one service, we have exactly what you're looking for on the current roster

[Galway Eagle]

da tree amigos hey

Were all top 100 players. Lazar on the other hand would count

[NickelDimer]

da tree amigos hey

???

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

What about Jimmy Butler. 

For the purposes of this thread I was only talking about high school recruits. Transfers are different because you get to see them play against other college players. And like Lenny said, Jimmy was JUCO All American honorable mention. To me, that's a surer thing than a three star rating.

Or Jae

Transfer...and he was JUCO POY. Does not qualify.

Dwyane Wade says hi.

15 years and two coaches ago.

With regards to OP, I agree about finding diamonds, and finding players who pan out to or above their rankings. But with Baldwin, are we sure that's not just small sample size? Maybe, maybe not. But could be.

Further, let's give wojo his chance with recruits. The far majority you listed were under the last regime. We saw what someone like Bo could do with lower ranked players in a successful system. Perhaps wojo can have similar success recruiting to a system rather than rankings/talent.

Baldwin has only played 5 games, its true. This is mostly me going off the eye test. The kid looks like a stud and plays like a stud. He could cool off but I don't think so.

For your second paragraph, that was part of the point I was making. At least to date, Wojo doesn't have any recruiting misses from the high school ranks. He doesn't have enough makes to for sure call him a better talent evaluater than Buzz was but I am hopeful.

da tree amigos hey

Three VERY highly rated players. Do not qualify.

Hauser: 135 Rivals, 3*

https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/536

Baldwin: 123 Rivals, 3*

https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/499


http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/sam-hauser-1.html
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/kamar-baldwin-1.html

According to one service, we have exactly what you're looking for on the current roster

By one service. Hauser was a top 100 four star ranked above Baldwin by a majority of the services.

[Jay Bee]

Kamar Baldwin was a three star ranked outside the top 150 by most services. His final four schools were Butler, Providence, Clemson, and Ole Miss. Good schools but hardly world beaters on the recruiting trail. The kid is getting starter's minutes as a freshman, hit a game winner against Northwestern, and is putting up impressive stats: 9.8 ppg, 2.2 rpg, 2.0 apg, 2.0 spg, 0.8 bpg, 1.0 tpg, .656 FG%, .545 3P% (that's without today's 11 point, 3 rebound, 2 steal performance against a top 10 team).

When is the last time Marquette landed a three star kid that wasn't highly sought after but turned out to be a stud?

Yesterday he posted a poor ORtg thanks to 3 turnovers and just 37.5% eFG shooting. Not sure I'd crown the kid just yet. He was good late summer of 2015 with the Atlanta Celtics... his size and role is an issue (see: some of our guys). Scorer. Turnover rate is rising on him despite being a scorer... he's shot 67.5% eFG.. when that drops, then what? Career high of 12 points...

We've got Markus Howard (#71 RSCI) and Sam Hauser (#94?), both underrated by the RSCI... and I'll happily take both over Kamar.

[Herman Cain]

Yesterday he posted a poor ORtg thanks to 3 turnovers and just 37.5% eFG shooting. Not sure I'd crown the kid just yet. He was good late summer of 2015 with the Atlanta Celtics... his size and role is an issue (see: some of our guys). Scorer. Turnover rate is rising on him despite being a scorer... he's shot 67.5% eFG.. when that drops, then what? Career high of 12 points...

We've got Markus Howard (#71 RSCI) and Sam Hauser (#94?), both underrated by the RSCI... and I'll happily take both over Kamar.

Did you watch the game? He played very well and was one of the keys to victory. The kid was super poised on offense and was very good defensively as well.

[Jay Bee]

Did you watch the game? He played very well and was one of the keys to victory. The kid was super poised on offense and was very good defensively as well.

He shot 37.5% eFG and had 3 turnovers, good for an ORtg of 81 (very poor).

Butler's key to victory was a 53.1% to 48.1% eFG advantage against a very young Arizona team.

If he was "one of the keys to victory" yesterday, then you're talking about a janitor's keychain.

[Herman Cain]

He shot 37.5% eFG and had 3 turnovers, good for an ORtg of 81 (very poor).

Butler's key to victory was a 53.1% to 48.1% eFG advantage against a very young Arizona team.

If he was "one of the keys to victory" yesterday, then you're talking about a janitor's keychain.

Obviously you didn't see the game.

[Jay Bee]

Obviously you didn't see the game.

Saw the game. He shot poorly & turned it over too often. Facts are facts.

[Herman Cain]

Saw the game. He shot poorly & turned it over too often. Facts are facts.

Stats are helpful but they need to be taken in context.

Baldwin shot 3/8 , yes, however one of the misses came on one of the most important plays at the end of the game . The kid was involved in a great defensive play (which stats do not show), went the length of the court and was hacked on the way to the hoop. The kid then calmly stood up in front of a loud very pro Arizona crowd and sunk the two free throws.

Free Throws Matter. 

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

15 years and two coaches ago.

You never said there was a statute of limitations.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Stats are helpful but they need to be taken in context.

Baldwin shot 3/8 , yes, however one of the misses came on one of the most important plays at the end of the game . The kid was involved in a great defensive play (which stats do not show), went the length of the court and was hacked on the way to the hoop. The kid then calmly stood up in front of a loud very pro Arizona crowd and sunk the two free throws.

Free Throws Matter.

Shooting fouls do not count as a shot attempt.  Believe me, I kept stats in high school.

[forgetful]

For the purposes of this thread I was only talking about high school recruits. Transfers are different because you get to see them play against other college players. And like Lenny said, Jimmy was JUCO All American honorable mention. To me, that's a surer thing than a three star rating.

I can agree on the transfer issue since you are entitled to define the rules however you wish.  But as Lenny said, honorable mention places Jimmy outside the top 30 JUCO players.  That's mid-major range, and outside the top 150.  JFB definitely fits the bill (unless as you note, you are excluding JUCO's). 

[Jay Bee]

Stats are helpful but they need to be taken in context.

Baldwin shot 3/8 , yes, however one of the misses came on one of the most important plays at the end of the game . The kid was involved in a great defensive play (which stats do not show), went the length of the court and was hacked on the way to the hoop. The kid then calmly stood up in front of a loud very pro Arizona crowd and sunk the two free throws.

Free Throws Matter.

A few things:
A) A player is not charged with a missed field goal attempt when fouled;
B) His FT% is reflected in his poor 81 ORtg; and
C) Not only was his offensively performance poor, he also used a lot of possessions (33% usage). He was a KEY cause of Butler's WORST offensive performance of the season.

[Newsdreams]

A few things:
A) A player is not charged with a missed field goal attempt when fouled;
B) His FT% is reflected in his poor 81 ORtg; and
C) Not only was his offensively performance poor, he also used a lot of possessions (33% usage). He was a KEY cause of Butler's WORST offensive performance of the season.

He will never understand what you are posting....

[GGGG]

Stats are helpful but they need to be taken in context.

Baldwin shot 3/8 , yes, however one of the misses came on one of the most important plays at the end of the game . The kid was involved in a great defensive play (which stats do not show), went the length of the court and was hacked on the way to the hoop. The kid then calmly stood up in front of a loud very pro Arizona crowd and sunk the two free throws.

Free Throws Matter. 

You don't understand what JB says that FT% doesn't matter.